Picking up our 21BHS!

[tinkeringtechie]

[quote source="/post/911/thread" timestamp="1399578417" author="@charliem"]The last sentence refers to the single point connection allowed in residential wiring. A single connection is allowed and required between neutral and ground at the power entry point. A similar connection is not allowed in RVs.
[/quote]That single point in a house is also where actual grounding occurs. It is literally connected to the earth there.

[charliem]

[font size="3"][font face="arial"]Agree. And I'm going way out on the speculation limb here: Barring a faulty component I would look for a bare ground wire stuck in the neutral buss with the other white wires. The ground wires can pick up a physical ground anywhere such as at outlets, the WH, the A/C, the fridge mounted to the metal trailer frame. All sockets and appliances would still work. If a white wire was stuck in the ground buss the socket or appliance would still work because it would draw return current through ground, but the house GFCI would trip and the fault would probably not show up [/font][/font][font size="3"][font face="arial"]with an ohmmeter [/font][/font][font size="3"][font face="arial"]at the camper power cord. The N-G short does show on an ohmmeter on Eddie's trailer.
[/font][/font]

[fasteddieb]

A little disappointed.

Our trailer has been at Southland since May 2. They say they've ordered a new door for the storage, and that it has still not arrived.

We would go ahead and pick it up, but its about 160 miles round trip to the dealer for them to finish up once they have the door.

Don't know if they drug their feet ordering the door or whether LivinLite's shipping of the door was in a non-expeditious fashion,

Anyway, going with a friend tomorrow to pick up a motor home he's renting for a vacation, and that would have been a perfect time to pick up our trailer.

No further word on the wiring issue. Last I heard they were denying a problem all around. Matt as Southland said he'd post to this thread about his take on it, but that clearly has not happened. With the RVIA standards in hand, I am going to have to insist on a fix somehow, but cannot handle 160 mile round trips. Probably start pulling wires from the converter until the short is found.

Like I said, a little disappointing.

[charliem]

[font size="3"][font face="arial"]Eddie,

I too am disappointed with the response on the electrical problem, but it's not clear whether the disconnect is at LL or your dealer. It took me a while to get past Don at LL on my plumbing problem, but he finally agreed to let me take it to a nearby CampingWorld and they found/replaced a faulty vent. All OK now. I don't know if your dealer is the closest RV shop, but your problem is not rocket science. I still believe it's a simple wiring mistake. Almost any RV shop could find and fix the problem.

If you have to work it yourself Tinkeringtechie and I can talk you through it, but it would help if you could find a friend who is at least familiar with electrical wiring, preferably residential house wiring. Not as hard as helping a non-pilot land a plane from the tower, but a little knowledge would help    Keep us informed and good luck.
[/font][/font]

[tinkeringtechie]

[quote source="/post/985/thread" timestamp="1400164552" author="@charliem"][font size="3"][font face="arial"]I don't know if your dealer is the closest RV shop, but your problem is not rocket science. I still believe it's a simple wiring mistake. Almost any RV shop could find and fix the problem.

If you have to work it yourself Tinkeringtechie and I can talk you through it, but it would help if you could find a friend who is at least familiar with electrical wiring, preferably residential house wiring. Not as hard as helping a non-pilot land a plane from the tower, but a little knowledge would help    Keep us informed and good luck.
[/font][/font][/quote]The 120V side of things is not that different from residential wiring. So if you have an electrician friend or one that you trust they can probably find the fault as well...

[charliem]

[font size="3"][font face="arial"]Fasteddieb,

See my post under Everything Else, General on Electrical Safety. Maybe more ammo for your battle with LL.
[/font][/font]

[fasteddieb]

Thanks.

Today's update:

Spoke with Matt at Southland RV. Don at LivinLite is refusing to admit there's a problem with my trailer's wiring, so Southland is not in a position to do any more work on it without authorization.

I've already emailed Don with the RVIA Standards document to point out that all three circuits should be isolated from each other, but have not heard back from him.

I also found out Southland ordered me a new storage door on May 8. LivinLite won't be able to ship one until May 23-26, and Matt tells me they will not expedite shipping.

I may call to see what I can get accomplished, but so far we are not at all impressed with after the sale customer support from LivinLite.

[mitch]

I've been following this thread but it's a little (okay a lot) above my knowledge of electrical stuff so I have only a little to add.  I've plugged my 13QBB into a a house plug with a GFCI multiple times, it has never tripped the GFCI.  One thing that did happen to me, and I'm not sure if this could have any impact at all on your issue, is that one time I had a light fixture intermittently work.  I removed the fixture and found a bunch of aluminum shavings, presumably from drilling for the installation of something, had vibrated down from the ceiling and settled into the fixture bridging the contacts on the light.  I don't think this could matter directly because you guys are talking the 120 volt side of things and this would be the 12 volt side but it could be that you've got some metal debris causing an issue.  If that's totally absurd please disregard this post and I'll go back to the high altitude seats and continue to watch.  Good luck

 

Mitch  

[charliem]

[font size="3"][font face="arial"]Fasteddieb,

I'm really sorry you're having such a bad experience with LL customer service. I don't think this is an image Scott wants in the field; I suspect he is not aware of the issues. We continue to believe there is a problem in your unit. Inconvenient at best; dangerous at worst. Both ways it's wrong. There are enough folks here to prove that it isn't normal and doesn't have to be. [/font][/font][font size="3"][font face="arial"]I've suspected Don doesn't know his product, but now I think worse: he doesn't want to. Keep the conversation going and keep us current.

Re the door and it's delivery: that's common all over the RV industry. They're just selling too much too fast to help individual customers. I could tell you my long story with waste tank replacement on another camper, but you don't have enough time  .
[/font][/font]

[fasteddieb]

Thanks, Mitch. Another data point as ammunition.

I'm calling Don at LivinLite tomorrow. I guess to get his refusal to deal with my issue on record.

Since Thor is an RVIA member, and LivinLite is owned by Thor, you'd think that they would want to be sure their products met RVIA standards, if only from a liability standpoint.

To be continued...

[charliem]

[font size="3"][font face="arial"]Eddie,

Since you're so proficient with the pictures maybe a good picture with the ohmmeter sent to LL would help Don understand the problem. Take pix similar to your 4/11/2014 @23:09 post and email to LL. Take a pix showing the probes connected to Ground and Neutral right at the camper connector to eliminate and aspersions cast on the cable. Show the digital meter face on so the reading and the meter range can be seen. Of course it still could be the cable if you haven't already eliminated it. Wouldn't that be something. It is a vendor supplied item to LL. 
[/font][/font]

[charliem]

[font size="3"][font face="arial"]Eddie,

Another thought: Southland is showing several CLs on their lot. Take Matt and an ohmmeter and test some others. Maybe give Matt some ammunition. Of course, beware of what yo might find. They all may be wire wrong  . But I suspect it's random, depending on the day of the week  
[/font][/font]

[shortcircuit]

[quote source="/post/1088/thread" timestamp="1400535007" author="@mitch"]

I've been following this thread but it's a little (okay a lot) above my knowledge of electrical stuff so I have only a little to add.  I've plugged my 13QBB into a a house plug with a GFCI multiple times, it has never tripped the GFCI.  One thing that did happen to me, and I'm not sure if this could have any impact at all on your issue, is that one time I had a light fixture intermittently work.  I removed the fixture and found a bunch of aluminum shavings, presumably from drilling for the installation of something, had vibrated down from the ceiling and settled into the fixture bridging the contacts on the light.  I don't think this could matter directly because you guys are talking the 120 volt side of things and this would be the 12 volt side but it could be that you've got some metal debris causing an issue.  If that's totally absurd please disregard this post and I'll go back to the high altitude seats and continue to watch.  Good luck



Mitch  
[/quote]We just brought home a new 14DBS, and I spent a day opening covers and vacuuming out the metal shavings in every nook and cranny along with various tyrap ends, plastic wrap pieces, etc. I also tywrapped several hoses and wiring to get them away from sharp edges which could cut through over time on the road. As in another travel trailer we owned, production lines don't lend themselves to meticulous assembly practices, so there will be various issues you will find on your own. We have one access door that had only one screw fastened into the frame, the other went into the air. Also found the famous storage compartment loose access door latches. Overall though our 14DBS is a solid trailer and we are glad we purchased it!
As far as the electrical issue, our 120 vac power connector is totally isolated. The ground does not connect to the neutral, and we have it plugged into an outside gfci with no issues.

[fasteddieb]

[quote source="/post/1148/thread" timestamp="1400715566" author="@shortcircuit"]
As far as the electrical issue, our 120 vac power connector is totally isolated. The ground does not connect to the neutral, and we have it plugged into an outside gfci with no issues.
[/quote]Thanks for the additional ammunition!

[fasteddieb]

I think we may have solved the wiring issue.

Matt at Southland RV undertook, on his own, to do more troubleshooting. Says he likes a challenge!

He did exactly what we were going to do - unhook everything from the busses and add back in one at a time until the fault occurred. From that, he determined it was the air conditioning unit.

As best as I understand it, the ground and neutral got "bonded" there. It happened because air conditioners are often mounted onto wood and/or rubber, so that keeping the frame isolated from ground is not an issue, so the neutral grounding at that point is also not an issue*. 

In the case of my trailer, the neutral was connected somehow to the frame of the air conditioner, and at least one of the mounting screws for the air conditioner attached to the aluminum trailer frame, making the connection.

I think. 

In any case, rather than isolate the frame of the air conditioner, he says he "rewired" the air conditioner and it will run fine and I no longer show a short between ground and neutral. So, hopefully...

1) It will no longer trip GFCI circuits, and,

2) We won't get electrocuted if an outlet happens to be wired wrong.

I really hope Don at LivinLite all step up and reimburse Southland for their time troubleshooting this. Its not a good thing if they even give the impression of trying to weasel out of legitimate issues.

Anyway, still awaiting the new storage door but really looking forward to getting the trailer back and camping!


*I think I got the gist of what he was explaining. My bad if I got some of the details wrong.