Picking up our 21BHS!

[charliem]

[font face="arial"][font size="3"]I generally agree with TT...Get a bigger extension. Wire is sized for two reasons: Fire safety, and voltage drop. Your A/C by it self will draw 15 Amps. From a safety perspective 14AWG will work, but for a long run the voltage drop will build up. Some things like lights and resistive heaters will not be damaged, but they won't work as well. But anything with a motor ( A/C, micro, fan) can be damaged. The fridge may not be damaged, but may not operate properly, particularly if the 12 volt sags. I would get a few real RV 30 Amp extension cords for temporary use. You should have one anyway for campgrounds. For your permanent installation I would run 8 gauge minimum, maybe even 6 if you're going 100 feet.[/font]

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[tinkeringtechie]

[quote source="/post/1257/thread" timestamp="1401388541" author="@shovelhead"]Not to hijack the thread but somewhat related.  If I run my 21RBS on a heavy duty (~20A) 50 Ft extension cord my fridge pukes.  The fridge error codes "E0" and wont reset.  I have to manually remove power from the control board and have "good" shore power.          E0 to me sounds like a brownout condition detected. It would be nice to have an external reset button. I guess that will be on my mod list.[/quote]I believe E0 is a communication error. The fridge electronics all run on 12V, so a low voltage would just cause it to switch to propane (if it were on auto). The 120V side is literally a relay and a coil and I don't think the control board cares what that voltage is.

[mitch]

I am just finishing up a pad project for my 13QBB and ran electric to the structure.  Distance is really the enemy here so you can use this web page [a href="http://www.southwire.com/support/voltage-drop-calculator.htm"]here[/a] to calculate the correct gauge wire.  My run was about 130 feet and technically for the full 30 amp 120 volts at the camper end I would need #6 copper.

Mitch  

[shovelhead]

[quote source="/post/1260/thread" timestamp="1401392144" author="@tinkeringtechie"][quote source="/post/1257/thread" timestamp="1401388541" author="@shovelhead"]Not to hijack the thread but somewhat related.  If I run my 21RBS on a heavy duty (~20A) 50 Ft extension cord my fridge pukes.  The fridge error codes "E0" and wont reset.  I have to manually remove power from the control board and have "good" shore power.          E0 to me sounds like a brownout condition detected. It would be nice to have an external reset button. I guess that will be on my mod list.[/quote]I believe E0 is a communication error. The fridge electronics all run on 12V, so a low voltage would just cause it to switch to propane (if it were on auto). The 120V side is literally a relay and a coil and I don't think the control board cares what that voltage is.[/quote]In my case the switch to propane doesnt happen.  The E0 comm error keeps everything locked up.  You cant do a thing , not even turn it off.
I have to open the rear panel to access the12 volt buss, remove power for a second and that resets it.

[tinkeringtechie]

[quote source="/post/1263/thread" timestamp="1401393202" author="@shovelhead"][quote source="/post/1260/thread" timestamp="1401392144" author="@tinkeringtechie"]I believe E0 is a communication error. The fridge electronics all run on 12V, so a low voltage would just cause it to switch to propane (if it were on auto). The 120V side is literally a relay and a coil and I don't think the control board cares what that voltage is.[/quote]In my case the switch to propane doesnt happen.  The E0 comm error keeps everything locked up.  You cant do a thing , not even turn it off.
I have to open the rear panel to access the12 volt buss, remove power for a second and that resets it.[/quote]
You can't turn it off because the top board (the one with the power button) can't communicate with the main board (in the rear access panel). I would check the connection between those two to make sure there isn't any corrosion/debris in the connector. Think of it like if your keyboard, mouse and monitor were disconnected from your computer... you wouldn't be able to control it and the monitor would just say "no signal". Essentially that's what the top board is telling you: E0 = "no signal".

[fasteddieb]

Curiouser and curiouser - and seriouser and seriouser.

First, I had the GFCI on the pump house trip twice - once on Thursday and once on Friday. We've had afternoon thunderstorms and I thought it might just have been the plug and adapter getting wet. Both times the GFCI reset with no hassle.

But...

Last night, I was getting Jake our dog to climb into the trailer. As soon as his paws hit the step, he jerked away from it. He had been up those steps repeatedly with no issue before. I had to lift him into the trailer. I touched the step with the back of my hand and did not feel anything. Thinking about it later, I was wearing rubber-soled sandals, so that may have prevented me feeling it.

Today, our 4-year-old grandson was stepping out of the trailer and asked my wife, "Why is it shocking me?" Karen touched the door frame and got a definite tingle.

For now, of course, we've unplugged from shore power while we sort this out.

Any thoughts on things to check tomorrow? We're thinking its time for a local electrician to take a look at things.

I'll refer Matt to this post to see what he thinks. And Don.

Thanks.

[charliem]

[font size="3"][font face="arial"]Ed,

It's hard to troubleshoot from a distance, but IF the ground is good from the house power panel to the trailer frame there should be no way to get shocked. Trip breakers and GFCIs yes, but not shocked. I would look for an open ground, maybe a defective extension cord or adapter, maybe a miswired socket in the pump house. Check with a Ohmmeter from the camper chassis to the far end of the extension cord you plug into the pump house. Then check for 120V from the hot to both neutral and ground on the pump house socket. There should be 120VAC from the hot to both neutral and ground. If the A/C chassis,now isolated from the frame, is somewhat hot and the safety ground is open you can have a hot camper frame. The rain and a wet roof can add to this. If that GFCI continues to trip it's doing its job and you still have a problem.
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[tinkeringtechie]

Another thing to consider is that you could "fix" the neutral/ground short issue by disconnecting the ground. I REALLY hope that wasn't done in this case as that could be potentially lethal.

[fasteddieb]

I will check the pump house wiring. Maybe take some pictures.

When I plugged in the little 3-light tester a while back, it showed normal indications.

I did buy a ground stake when I did the original install and have the ground wires hooked to that at the pump house.

If I drive a piece of rebar into the ground by the trailer, will either a voltmeter or ammeter from the trailer chassis to the rebar tell me anything while powered by shore power?

Matt responded last night, and wants us to bring the trailer back in. Kudos for a quick response (on a Sunday night). But the 160 mile round trip (twice each time) to drop it off and get it back is pretty time consuming and expensive. I will again refer him to this thread and encourage him to join in.

[charliem]

[quote source="/post/1307/thread" timestamp="1401708614" author="@fasteddieb"]If I drive a piece of rebar into the ground by the trailer, will either a voltmeter or ammeter from the trailer chassis to the rebar tell me anything while powered by shore power?


[/quote][font size="3"][font face="arial"]As a temporary test the rebar in the ground with a bucket of water around it will let you measure voltage to the CL frame. Use a voltmeter set on AC volts. It should read zero volts. Also try spraying water on the CL roof while you're measuring. For a permanent ground stake, if you decide on one, use a copper plated steel ground rod or a length of 3/4" copper pipe.[/font][/font]

[tinkeringtechie]

Even before driving rebar, I would check continuity between the trailer plug ground and the frame.

[fasteddieb]

I'm going to check everything this afternoon and will report back the findings.

Thanks!

[tinkeringtechie]

I suspect that the plug ground is not connected to the frame anymore, as any voltage on the frame should have leaked to ground and caused the GFCI to trip. My guess is the those few times it did trip recently were caused by the frame voltage leaking to the literal ground (through your jacks or something similar touching the actual ground). It could also mean that the GFCI or extension cord are faulty, but that's less likely.

It's important to note that these symptoms show that the neutral/ground fault was never actually fixed, but instead an new problem (floating frame) has been added to the list.

[fasteddieb]

I think we verified continuity with the frame when I picked it up - it will be the first thing I check this afternoon.

[fasteddieb]

Progress report:

1) Ground lug on trailer is continuous with the chassis, but not with the other two lugs.

2) None of the wires on the entire length of cable/adapter/extension cord show as shorted to the other two.

3) I checked the ground plug of the extension cord and it is continuous with the trailer frame.

4) But yet, when I drove a 4' piece of rebar into the ground and measured AC volts, I got about 120 between the trailer frame and the rebar.

Yikes! Jake and Asher and Karen were right!

Time to check the wiring on the outlet at the pump house.

Last time I checked it with one of those 3-light testers it tested normal. Let me try it again. And I'll take a look at how the outlet is wired.

I have a friend who was an electrical engineer. I just called him.

Back to investigate further and check my wiring.