Picking up our 21BHS!

[fasteddieb]

Tested it on a GFCI circuit yet?

I went out to the hangar and disconnected the refrigerator.

1) No change at 30A connector.

2) Refrigerator by itself did not trip GFCI.

Now, I just have to convince Livin' Lite there's an issue, and then come up with a shop to look at it that's not too far and won't take too long.

[tinkeringtechie]

I did test it on a GFCI yesterday and it did not trip. I think that should be enough to at least have a shop take a look at it.

[fasteddieb]

Can anyone advise how to disconnect/unplug the converter? Is it part of the unit containing the breakers and fuses?

[tinkeringtechie]

[quote source="/post/619/thread" timestamp="1398093836" author="@fasteddieb"]Can anyone advise how to disconnect/unplug the converter? Is it part of the unit containing the breakers and fuses?[/quote]It's hard-wired, so it can't be disconnected very easily. It's usually right behind or next to the DC fuses (wherever the vents are).

[tinkeringtechie]

How are things going with the Neutral/Ground issue? Did you get any traction with LivinLite?

[fasteddieb]

I'm towing it to the dealer in Buford, GA on Friday to deal with it. Will need to leave it for a while.

Also a few other teething problems - nothing major. Binding front storage door, one broken window support strut (Livin' Lite sent me a new one), possible issue with the cable switch/reception.

Maybe point out the rusty piece of steel scrap holding up the black water pipe.

That's about it so far.

[charliem]

[font size="3"][font face="arial"]Eddie,

How are doing with the neutral/ground problem? What did they find or not find? Did they fix anything or just brush you off, or too early to tell?
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[fasteddieb]

No word back yet - I'll call them tomorrow.

[fasteddieb]

I just spoke with Matt at Southland RV. They've ordered me a new storage door and are troubleshooting the cable switch.

He does say that having the neutral and ground "looped" is common to virtually all small trailers, and that all will trip a GFCI. He said companies actually sell a separate GFCI device because of that.

He said he discussed that "looped" neutral/ground wiring with Don at Livin'Lite and he confirmed that was normal - as he had told me prior. That that is just the way they are wired at the factory.

I did explain that some on this forum said their grounds and neutrals were definitely not connected, and that they did not trip GFCI's.

He said that after work today he might have time to read this thread and post here about his take on it.

Anyway, does anyone know of a schematic diagram for these trailers? It sure seems like one would exist somewhere and could assist in this discussion.

[tinkeringtechie]

I don't think the "smallness" of a trailer should determine whether they wire it correctly. I was just working with the breaker panel/converter over the weekend and at no point do the ground and neutral connect. It's just like in your home but more compact. Here's a picture of the guts:

[attachment id="103" thumbnail="1"]

That bottom right bar with the white wires is where you would isolate the issue. If you disconnected each white wire and tested them individually for continuity to ground you'd find your culprit. Once again... I'm not an electrician and I'm gathering neither are you, so do this at your own risk.

[charliem]

[font size="3"][font face="arial"]Eddie,

The easy question first. I know of no electrical or plumbing schematic for these trailers. One hopefully exists at LL but it would change so often as to make it almost useless to the outside world.

Now for the harder stuff. I definitely think there is a problem with your trailer and it's not "normal". The National Electric Code now requires GFCIs on many residential circuits of 20 Amps or less just to prevent this very problem. The short you are experiencing will defeat the safety provided by the GFCI. Fortunately your GFCIs trip before you get in trouble. [/font][/font][font size="3"][font face="arial"] Intentional connections between neutral and ground other than at the household power entry point are specifically prohibited by the Code.[/font][/font][font size="3"][font face="arial"] GFCIs are designed to detect and protect against unintentional connections, such as people.Thirty Amp and above outlets do not presently require GFCIs, but I think it's only a matter of time.

The fact that there are at least two other LL 21s on this forum that do not have this problem should be ample evidence that it is not "normal". With your problem existing with all appliances unplugged I suspect either a faulty converter/WH/AC or a miswire. The fact that other trailers with the same appliances and converter do not exhibit the problem indicates there is no generic fault. Something is wrong on your unit and I suspect a wiring error. I is easy to wire all neutrals and grounds together to a common buss an it's wrong. Please keep on this and keep us informed. Sounds like your dealer is willing to listen but LL isn't. Not a good situation.
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[charliem]

[quote source="/post/907/thread" timestamp="1399575719" author="@tinkeringtechie"]I don't think the "smallness" of a trailer should determine whether they wire it correctly. I was just working with the breaker panel/converter over the weekend and at no point do the ground and neutral connect. It's just like in your home but more compact. Here's a picture of the guts:



That bottom right bar with the white wires is where you would isolate the issue. If you disconnected each white wire and tested them individually for continuity to ground you'd find your culprit. Once again... I'm not an electrician and I'm gathering neither are you, so do this at your own risk.
[/quote][font face="arial" size="3"]Great picture. I'm guessing the problem is right there. One or more wires are connected to the wrong buss. I'm glad to see the proper engineering from Progressive Dynamics.
[/font]

[fasteddieb]

I did just come up with an RVIA document on the subject:

[a href="http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=5&ved=0CFUQFjAE&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.irv2.com%2Fforums%2Fattachment.php%3Fattachmentid%3D5630%26d%3D1285187648&ei=XdtrU97zLKK1sATQxIGQAg&usg=AFQjCNEA36p2R_i3I8hhiZg0XB0joYHVqw&sig2=xOGhPYVsNareR7VMvH5Ixw&bvm=bv.66111022,d.cWc"]http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=5&ved=0CFUQFjAE&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.irv2.com%2Fforums%2Fattachment.php%3Fattachmentid%3D5630%26d%3D1285187648&ei=XdtrU97zLKK1sATQxIGQAg&usg=AFQjCNEA36p2R_i3I8hhiZg0XB0joYHVqw&sig2=xOGhPYVsNareR7VMvH5Ixw&bvm=bv.66111022,d.cWc

[/a]I also put a copy in Dropbox: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/22997486/IV-E_IsolatedNeutral2.pdf

From that document:

"Isolated Neutral – Both the supply (black) and neutral (white) wires are current-carrying conductors. Other than the color identifying them, the main difference is the supply conductor is run through a circuit breaker and the neutral conductor terminates in an isolated buss bar. They both conduct the same current, and are treated alike within a circuit. They are run parallel to each other, and each is isolated from the other and from the safety ground (bare or green wire). Inside the distribution panelboard, both supply and neutral conductors are insulated from the enclosure thereby isolating the neutral conductor within the circuit. This isolation is important throughout to avoid a hot-skin or hazardous electrical condition."

"RVs are wired differently than houses and the differences are based on the grounding system. In an RV, the neutral conductor is isolated from the ground conductor. There is no electrical interconnection of the white wire and the bare ground wire in the RV."

[charliem]

[quote source="/post/910/thread" timestamp="1399578016" author="@fasteddieb"]I did just come up with an RVIA document on the subject:


"RVs are wired differently than houses and the differences are based on the grounding system. In an RV, the neutral conductor is isolated from the ground conductor. There is no electrical interconnection of the white wire and the bare ground wire in the RV."

[/quote][font face="arial" size="3"]Good work, Eddie,

The last sentence refers to the single point connection allowed in residential wiring. A single connection is allowed and required between neutral and ground at the power entry point. A similar connection is not allowed in RVs.
[/font]

[fasteddieb]

Will await input from Matt on this.

I'm still pretty convinced there's a problem that needs to be addressed one way or another.