Another 21 RBS (lengthy)

[jtelles3993]

As mentioned in my New Member's thread, we take delivery of our 21RBS on January 30th. We purchased the RBS last Friday at D&H RV in Apex, NC - about 2.5 hours from our home. We were very impressed with the down to earth staff and their facilities - clean, well equipped, but certainly not a huge mega RV center with lots of overhead costs. Zero sales pressure - the same guys that show and sell you the RV also work on them - they know them inside out. They only carry a few lines, but really like and focus on the CampLite line and know a lot about the history of the company - to include the Thor assimilation. Thought it best to start a thread on the particulars of our camper here, sort of a "journal" if you will, of how things develop over time. I hope to start adding pictures in a few weeks once it's home.

Ours has the XL Package which includes a few nice options (awning, 13.5 A/C, power vents, tank level monitors, leather couch, wood-like floor, and LP tank covers) - but we did find that the XL pkg varies slightly month to month with LL? Two items that are shown as XL that did not come with ours are the 22" flat screen TV and the dual source water heater, ours is LP only. We did get a little price cut on the TT and D&H will be installing a black water flush kit at no charge for us. I am now discussing adding a conversion kit for the water heater - which run about a $100 for the hardware. The fold out dining table is not very functional and too flimsy so I will have to build one specific to the RV and how we plan to use it. More on that later. Linda has a lot of great ideas for making the TT a comfortable and efficient home and I will be leaving all of that in her capable hands, of which she's done a splendid job for 36+ years!

One really nice feature included on ours is the rear 3' deck - which is the 2 main frames extended out (cut longer) with welded aluminum cross slats to create a very simple and solid rear deck. I plan to hard mount our Honda 3000w generator and eventually a dual 6v battery bank on that deck. Depending on the weight distribution and space, I may even move the LP tanks back there?

Speaking of which, I have no immediate plans to use WDH or sway bars. LL recommends against them and D&H RV agreed 100%. Since they sell and install these products D&H could easily do the job and make a few bucks in the process, so I'm going with their advice. Also, my F150 manual states that a WDH shouldn't be needed towing anything under 5000lbs. The F150 has the Max Tow package with some sort of anti-sway feature built in, which I need to find out exactly what that does? Of course, the final verdict on this discussion will be clear once I begin towing. Should I find that I need either or both, I will gladly add them. More on that later.

Well that's where we're at for now - so far, so good!

Alex & Linda
 

[tinkeringtechie]

[quote source="/post/6100/thread" timestamp="1421772918" author="@surfsup"]I plan to hard mount our Honda 3000w generator and eventually a dual 6v battery bank on that deck. Depending on the weight distribution and space, I may even move the LP tanks back there?

Speaking of which, I have no immediate plans to use WDH or sway bars. LL recommends against them and D&H RV agreed 100%. Since they sell and install these products D&H could easily do the job and make a few bucks in the process, so I'm going with their advice. Also, my F150 manual states that a WDH shouldn't be needed towing anything under 5000lbs. The F150 has the Max Tow package with some sort of anti-sway feature built in, which I need to find out exactly what that does? Of course, the final verdict on this discussion will be clear once I begin towing. Should I find that I need either or both, I will gladly add them. More on that later.

Well that's where we're at for now - so far, so good!

Alex & Linda
 [/quote]
Probably not a good idea. That's a lot of weight behind the axles and will probably reduce your tongue weight into the unstable zone. Try to keep your tongue weight at least 10-15%. More won't hurt if your vehicle can handle it, but less will make the rig unstable.

[quote source="/post/6100/thread" timestamp="1421772918" author="@surfsup"]Also, my F150 manual states that a WDH shouldn't be needed towing anything under 5000lbs. The F150 has the Max Tow package with some sort of anti-sway feature built in, which I need to find out exactly what that does?[/quote]
Some 21BHS owners have reported weights over 5,000lbs, so you're close enough that you should at least consider it. I'm guessing your manual says that you SHOULD use WDH over 5,000lbs which you might very well be especially with dual batteries and a generator.

As for the "anti-sway feature" it's normally just some extra programming in the car's stability control system that senses sway and then distributes brake and engine power to compensate. It might help in an emergency, but it won't do much for regular driving.

[jtelles3993]

hey tinkeringtechie, appreciate you taking time to share your valid concerns. I guess I need to reiterate what I said already - and that is - I will definitely (and with pep in my step) procure a WDH and/or any sway equipment necessary, once I know I need them. In fact, I double doubted (maybe triple doubted?) the dealer during this portion of our discussions and he didn't budge one bit - unequivocally not necessary?! OK, I said - I'll give it a go. Now my plan here is to do this critical test in phases. Phase one being the 2.5 hr ride home with a totally empty 21RBS. Subsequent test phases as I add or alter "stuff", etc. It'll be fun. As far as the plans on the back deck, it seems to me (per my repeated walkthroughs) that the lions share of the 21RBS's storage volume is dead center and fwd of the axles - as such I was actually thinking it'd be needful to shed some weight to the back - not vise versa? We'll see? I'm fairly certain the generator will be perfect (172lbs with fuel) - but the batteries, yep maybe too much weight? Here again, we'll see? Per carefully crunching all my numbers, I have decent excess capacity remaining in both TV and TT to adjust as needed - and I live very close to a nice set of truck scales to verify my efforts. I think you're spot on about the Ford's anti-sway, I've yet to learn about that feature. Thanks again!

[jtelles3993]

Yep, you were right, Ford F150 Anti-Sway video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G1leczQxgEE

[charliem]

[font size="3"]Surfsup,

Glad to see you thinking this through. Like TinkeringTechie, I was a bit concerned when I read your recent post. You're the first owner I know of with the extended rear platform on a 21er so I'll be interested in your results. I had my rear bumper beefed up to carry bikes, but it didn't extend the size any.

On sway, I'll make a few points:

[ol type="decimal"][li][font size="3"]Trailer sway is almost entirely a function of trailer loading. The target of 10% to15% of total trailer weight on the tongue is a good safe place. Weight added to the rear of a 21er will reduce tongue weight by about ½. That is, 10# added to the rear will reduce tongue weight by 5#, while adding 10# to the total trailer weight. This eats away quickly at the desired 10%-15% ratio.[/font][/li][li][font size="3"]The truck total tow rating is based on truck frame/brake/hitch capacity as well as payload capability. First, the truck has to be able to accelerate and stop the total TT + loaded TV weight, or Gross Combined Vehicle Weight. Second, the truck and axles have to be able to carry the payload which includes passengers, stuff in the bed, and TT tongue weight. This is the limit usually encountered first in towing. Third, if tongue weight significantly unloads the steering axle, tongue weight must be shifted back to the steering axle and the TT axles. This is the function of the WDH. I believe the common practice of rating a truck relative to allowable towing capacity makes the tacit assumption that the desired tongue weight ratios are present. [/font][/li][li][font size="3"]Lastly, I am very skeptical about claims of active sway controls in TVs being able to control trailer sway. The Ford video almost admits this, but not quite. I think a better approach would be for the truck to lightly apply trailer brakes when sway is  detected, but that's a whole other engineering problem.
[/font][/li][/ol]
With the F150 you probably can get away without WDH with the bare TT. As you add stuff you'll quickly approach one or more limits. Most folks find they prefer the added comfort and confidence of the WDH, even if they don't technically "need" it. If you do opt for a WDH, check out my thread on bent couplers. The coupler on the 21er is a weak point in LL's  design.[/font]

[font size="3"]Good luck and keep us informed of your adventures.[/font]

[pinstriper]

1. Most people have no idea what their trailer weight is, much less their tongue weight. If they do, even fewer know how, or have much ability to influence the tongue weight. They pack stuff where it fits, clap their hands together and say "off we go !". I'm not casting any aspersions on anyone other than on the general public of nitwits who are probably also texting on their iphones while towing over the weight limit and over the speed limit. Occam's Razor.

2. True that. Except I believe the first limit encountered is probably volume. Folks load up the trailer, and the bed, until they can't fit anything else inside, and then run out of truck rope.

C. I have been told, by folks who probably don't know, but they sounded convincing so I'll say it anyway, that one of the recovery techniques is to apply power so that the forward vector takes over and stabilizes the tow. I believe this intuitively, and also because I saw a 20 year old video from a tire company that says if you have a blown-out tire, hit the gas to overcome the sideways forces. The trick is, "What next, hotshot ?" There's the rub. You still have to slow the thing down, and they recommend coasting, not braking, until you can find a spot to pull over. This makes sense - recover control, then maintain control with SMALL adjustments. But...

4)  I'll bet a root beer float that the manual and/or state law mandates WDH long before 5,000# is reached. There's a number out there for sure, but it's lower than 5k.

May all your tows be uneventful.

[charliem]

[quote source="/post/6119/thread" timestamp="1421808783" author="@pinstriper"]
C. I have been told, by folks who probably don't know, but they sounded convincing so I'll say it anyway, that one of the recovery techniques is to apply power so that the forward vector takes over and stabilizes the tow. I believe this intuitively, and also because I saw a 20 year old video from a tire company that says if you have a blown-out tire, hit the gas to overcome the sideways forces. The trick is, "What next, hotshot ?" There's the rub. You still have to slow the thing down, and they recommend coasting, not braking, until you can find a spot to pull over. This makes sense - recover control, then maintain control with SMALL adjustments. But...

[/quote][font size="3"]I'll agree that acceleration is one way out, but then what? You do have to bleed off speed eventually, before hitting that next curve or wall. The concept is to put tension on the hitch and "stretch" out the sway, much as you stretch a leg cramp. The preferred way is to apply trailer brakes manually. That corrects the sway and bleeds off speed. That's why you always keep the brake controller lever at the ready, but I admit it's hard to think that fast when bad things are happening. I was concerned when the Ford video said the truck, upon detecting sway, cut the engine power. Without some trailer braking that might exacerbate the sway. At least they don't apply TV brakes, I hope.
[/font]

[fasteddieb]

I did just pull up the specs on the F150.

It appears that without weight distributing hitch the max tongue weight is 500 lbs. That jumps to 1,130 lbs with the w/d hitch.

My 21BHS has a tongue weight of about 625 lbs.

Just something to consider.

[pinstriper]

[quote source="/post/6120/thread" timestamp="1421809870" author="@charliem"][quote source="/post/6119/thread" timestamp="1421808783" author="@pinstriper"]C. I have been told, by folks who probably don't know, but they sounded convincing so I'll say it anyway, that one of the recovery techniques is to apply power so that the forward vector takes over and stabilizes the tow. I believe this intuitively, and also because I saw a 20 year old video from a tire company that says if you have a blown-out tire, hit the gas to overcome the sideways forces. The trick is, "What next, hotshot ?" There's the rub. You still have to slow the thing down, and they recommend coasting, not braking, until you can find a spot to pull over. This makes sense - recover control, then maintain control with SMALL adjustments. But...

[/quote][font size="3"]I'll agree that acceleration is one way out, but then what? You do have to bleed off speed eventually, before hitting that next curve or wall. The concept is to put tension on the hitch and "stretch" out the sway, much as you stretch a leg cramp. The preferred way is to apply trailer brakes manually. That corrects the sway and bleeds off speed. That's why you always keep the brake controller lever at the ready, but I admit it's hard to think that fast when bad things are happening. I was concerned when the Ford video said the truck, upon detecting sway, cut the engine power. Without some trailer braking that might exacerbate the sway. At least they don't apply TV brakes, I hope.
[/font][/quote][p]You know, when the trailer hopped off the ball, I *DID* have the presence of mind to NOT hit the brakes on the TV, and instead grab the controller and mash on the trailer brakes. I let the trailer being us to a stop, which it did partly because of the trailer brakes, and partly because the tongue jack was grinding itself down. Better the jack than the frame.[/p][p]
[/p][p]And hey, it kept the trailer from impacting the TV.[/p][p]
[/p][p]I wish I could say it was anything other than reflex, and instinct. There was no problem-solving involved, no time.[/p][p]
[/p]

[jtelles3993]

Appreciate the responses by all,  I'm in information overload now, haha!

Hmmm, but if all of you are right then that  leaves a few lingering implications... LL either doesn't have a clue about towing physics - and/or they're trying to cover their butts on a frame that they feel won't survive the stresses associated with tow assist devices?

[pinstriper]

[quote timestamp="1421815041" author="@surfsup" source="/post/6125/thread"]Appreciate the responses by all,  I'm in information overload now, haha!

Hmmm, but if all of you are right then that  leaves a few lingering implications... LL either doesn't have a clue about towing physics - and/or they're trying to cover their butts on a frame that they feel won't survive the stresses associated with tow assist devices? [/quote][p]Well....yeah. LL is like any other manufacturer in that they really don't give a rat's ass about anything they don't have a liability about.[/p][p]
[/p][p]I mean, yeah, they might, and are probably good people and all, but in the end, they make business decisions, and those decisions are governed by money, which is what liability is all about. So you'll never pin them down any other way.[/p][p]
[/p][p]That all having been said, and written, and read....[/p][p]
[/p][p]There is an inherent problem with the segment we are talking about. Ultra light weight leads you to (among other things) aluminum frame, which is fine as far as it goes, until one day you get the bright idear to say "hey, we have the frame strength, and the overall weight, how big can we make this thing ?" and some yahoo nerd with more AutoCad skills than brains says "I can make a 40 footer and still keep the whole thing under 5 kilo-pounds" and The Boss says "prove it" and he does, and then the one guy with any sense says "what about tongue weigh ?t" and The Boss says "what the freaking heck is tongue weight ?" and he tells him so The Boss says "start trimming the thing back 1 foot at a time until the tongue weight is around 750#". And they do, and they come up with the 21RSB, or whatever.[/p][p]
[/p][p]And someone in the shop says "hey, what if they want to, you know, take stuff along on their camping trip ?" and The Boss says "you just stow that crap, bucko, we're not responsible to anything but the dry weight ! Keep your opinions and fancy book learnin' to yerself !"[/p][p]
[/p][p]And then Marketing steps in and says "couldn't we weasel out of something or other, weight-wise ?" and they come up with something called the "BASE CONFIGURATION", which they don't even make, much less ship or sell, but it has all the heavy stuff, like batteries, and propane tanks, and appliances, and light bulbs, and paint taken out, because that makes it lighter, and the tongue weight less (which still nobody understands yet anyway). And that goes on the sticker and the website and stuff.[/p][p]
[/p][p]All the while, there's some dude in the corner thinking to himself "the force at the coupler is way too much for aluminum, we should drill a coupla holes and put 2 more bolts in the thing, but look at what happened to the guy who brought up the tongue weight issue" And he wisely keeps his mouth shut because he's still paying off the quad and the old lady is knocked up and he's got bills to pay.[/p][p]
[/p][p]In short. TANSTATMTV.[/p][p]
[/p][p]
[/p]

[charliem]

[quote source="/post/6125/thread" timestamp="1421815041" author="@surfsup"]Appreciate the responses by all,  I'm in information overload now, haha!

Hmmm, but if all of you are right then that  leaves a few lingering implications... LL either doesn't have a clue about towing physics - and/or they're trying to cover their butts on a frame that they feel won't survive the stresses associated with tow assist devices? [/quote][font size="3"]You present a troubling, but valid observation and I don't think anyone here really knows the answer. You will find lots of speculation about bending the aluminum frame elsewhere on the Web, but I've never found real evidence of this. LL has never directly addressed this issue. I have documented deformation of the ball coupler on the 21s, but I attribute this to improper application of the coupler itself. The supplied coupler, meant to be welded, is bolted with four bolts through the top. This is inadequate for any high stress such as experienced with a WDH. Strangely enough, LL supplies a larger coupler, including side bolts, on their toy haulers. I have replaced the OEM coupler and added two side bolts to correct problem. This more closely approximates the mounting method for which the coupler was designed.  So far I've not observed any deformation of the frame itself, it's pretty stiff, but it would be nice to have an official engineering response from LL.

Bottom line: I feel that the minimal WD required to smooth out the ride on a pickup is entirely within the frame capabilities of the CL, but the coupler does need work. Not a hard job and LL should pick up on it. Other than that we're still waiting for LL's input.
[/font]

[fasteddieb]

[quote source="/post/6125/thread" timestamp="1421815041" author="@surfsup"]Appreciate the responses by all,  I'm in information overload now, haha!

Hmmm, but if all of you are right then that  leaves a few lingering implications... LL either doesn't have a clue about towing physics - and/or they're trying to cover their butts on a frame that they feel won't survive the stresses associated with tow assist devices? [/quote]I think LL deceptively and dangerously publishes empty weight and tongue weight figures, asterisks notwithstanding.

For instance, 440 lbs tongue weight for a 21BHS. It was on the basis of that that we figured a Ford Flex rated at 450 lbs tongue weight would be adequate. As it turns out, our normally loaded 21BHS did come in just under the 4,500 limit that Ford published for total weight with a WDH, but way over the 450 lbs - by 175 lbs or so.

Still, reinforced by CanAm our rig tows very well with its EZLift Elite WDH combined with a Husky sway control. I can tell you with the sway control backed off too far, we can definitely feel a subtle sway at times. Nothing dangerous to date, but the sway control keeps everything feeling much tighter and more stable.

As an aside, our Flex also advertises sway control built in.

[jtelles3993]

Thanks for the additional responses, my fellow campers. As I read through your many words, sift out and focus on your core concerns driving your responses, I've gone full circle back to my first 2 posts in this thread. I.e, carefully adding weight to the rear deck will go a long way towards calibrating the optimum % weight on the hitch. Which then goes full circle to my decision to hold off on WDH or anti-sway gear until I have time to evaluate my assumptions.

I will be honest and say that some of your posts certainly gave me pause and I thank you all for that moment of objectivity. So this morning, rolling back through and revisiting the years of research that has brought us to this decision, I still feel the LL/CL 21RBS is the best TT on the market for us and our TV (that we can afford). We proceed onwards.

[dh50]

Livin Learn, I always say.  Let's roll!