Another 21 RBS (lengthy)

[jtelles3993]

Livin Learn, I always say.  Let's roll!

yep..

[jtelles3993]

[quote source="/post/6125/thread" timestamp="1421815041" author="@surfsup"]Appreciate the responses by all,  I'm in information overload now, haha!

Hmmm, but if all of you are right then that  leaves a few lingering implications... LL either doesn't have a clue about towing physics - and/or they're trying to cover their butts on a frame that they feel won't survive the stresses associated with tow assist devices? [/quote]I just want to clarify that I was actually being a bit of a smart ass above... but then again, in time, I could become a self made prophet and LL hater #1? As for right now - I really don't have any presumptions that LL is clueless about their craft. In fact, after 36 years of working on USMC/USN aircraft, I don't see building these products as rocket science or anything close to some kind of Herculean engineering feat. You take some pretty good tradesmen (good campers) who understand trailering concepts, throw in some good quality materials, work out some jigs and fixtures for assembly - and good RVs will happen. As I'm told, LL takes about a week to build one 21RBS, whereas Jayco builds about 30 or 40 a day of each model they sell. Eventually I may be proven totally wrong about LL, but for now that and our recent QA audit, speaks volumes to me.

[pinstriper]

As I'm told, LL takes about a week to build one 21RBS, whereas Jayco builds about 30 or 40 a day of each model they sell.

Who told you that hogwash ? Whoever it was, stop listening to them. They're an idiot.

If that statement were true, there'd only be 52 new trailers a year. This makes it sound like it takes 12 minutes to build a Jayco, compared to a week for a Camplite.

For reference, by the end of the war, the Kaiser shipyard was producing one Liberty Ship a day.

That doesn't mean the cycle time to produce one ship was one day. They had a cycle time of somewhere between 2 and 3 weeks.

Comparing cycle time and throughput is a classic apples/oranges situation. Now, you will hear or read that you can't compare apples and oranges, and that's not true. You CAN, so long as your intent is to deceive.

It is as dishonest as comparing statutory tax rates to effective tax rates and also taxes paid. At best, it is innocent ignorance. At worst, and far more likely, is intellectual dishonesty.

[jtelles3993]

[quote source="/post/6149/thread" timestamp="1421893685" author="@pinstriper"]

As I'm told, LL takes about a week to build one 21RBS, whereas Jayco builds about 30 or 40 a day of each model they sell.

If that statement were true, there'd only be 52 new trailers a year. This makes it sound like it takes 12 minutes to build a Jayco, compared to a week for a Camplite.


[/quote]If we assume LL and Jayco only have one employee each building RVs... then yea. But I think the point is the smaller company has to take more time to build each RV because they don't have an army of employees spread across several assembly lines. Also, stapling wood is a whole lot quicker that TIG'n aluminum.

[jtelles3993]

Not hogwash at all - from Jayco's own promotional video, 32 units a day (less than 7 hours each) and this is just one assembly line.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jXMJrRQ3SVk

[mitch]

[quote timestamp="1421816403" author="@pinstriper" source="/post/6127/thread"][quote timestamp="1421815041" author="@surfsup" source="/post/6125/thread"]Appreciate the responses by all,  I'm in information overload now, haha!

Hmmm, but if all of you are right then that  leaves a few lingering implications... LL either doesn't have a clue about towing physics - and/or they're trying to cover their butts on a frame that they feel won't survive the stresses associated with tow assist devices? [/quote][p]Well....yeah. LL is like any other manufacturer in that they really don't give a rat's ass about anything they don't have a liability about.[/p][p]
[/p][p]I mean, yeah, they might, and are probably good people and all, but in the end, they make business decisions, and those decisions are governed by money, which is what liability is all about. So you'll never pin them down any other way.[/p][p]
[/p][p]That all having been said, and written, and read....[/p][p]
[/p][p]There is an inherent problem with the segment we are talking about. Ultra light weight leads you to (among other things) aluminum frame, which is fine as far as it goes, until one day you get the bright idear to say "hey, we have the frame strength, and the overall weight, how big can we make this thing ?" and some yahoo nerd with more AutoCad skills than brains says "I can make a 40 footer and still keep the whole thing under 5 kilo-pounds" and The Boss says "prove it" and he does, and then the one guy with any sense says "what about tongue weigh ?t" and The Boss says "what the freaking heck is tongue weight ?" and he tells him so The Boss says "start trimming the thing back 1 foot at a time until the tongue weight is around 750#". And they do, and they come up with the 21RSB, or whatever.[/p][p]
[/p][p]And someone in the shop says "hey, what if they want to, you know, take stuff along on their camping trip ?" and The Boss says "you just stow that crap, bucko, we're not responsible to anything but the dry weight ! Keep your opinions and fancy book learnin' to yerself !"[/p][p]
[/p][p]And then Marketing steps in and says "couldn't we weasel out of something or other, weight-wise ?" and they come up with something called the "BASE CONFIGURATION", which they don't even make, much less ship or sell, but it has all the heavy stuff, like batteries, and propane tanks, and appliances, and light bulbs, and paint taken out, because that makes it lighter, and the tongue weight less (which still nobody understands yet anyway). And that goes on the sticker and the website and stuff.[/p][p]
[/p][p]All the while, there's some dude in the corner thinking to himself "the force at the coupler is way too much for aluminum, we should drill a coupla holes and put 2 more bolts in the thing, but look at what happened to the guy who brought up the tongue weight issue" And he wisely keeps his mouth shut because he's still paying off the quad and the old lady is knocked up and he's got bills to pay.[/p][p]
[/p][p]In short. TANSTATMTV.[/p][p]
[/p][p]
[/p][/quote]WoW!!! did you have that whole conversation in your head in living color?! It was specatcular!

[maryvanilla]

Great disussion by all on the WDH, coupler and frame considerations for 21ers. As a trailer manufactuer, I'd imagine it would be difficult to committ to a one size fits all response to the topic given the variables involved with road/weather conditions, driving techiques/choices, TV variations in weight/wheel base/tire qualities/inflation, TT loading etc and how those variables directly relate to the myriad of driver performance expectations of their entire rig.

I tend to agree with a comment posted that there is no substitute for personal experience towing and figuring out, incrementally and conservatively, what you and your rig are capable of and comfortable with in various conditions. Again, great ideas and experiences shared that offer new 21ers like me informed opinions to compare my observations to. Keep sharing!

[pinstriper]

[quote source="/post/6159/thread" timestamp="1421897773" author="@boondockler"]Great disussion by all on the WDH, coupler and frame considerations for 21ers. As a trailer manufactuer, I'd imagine it would be difficult to committ to a one size fits all response to the topic given the variables involved with road/weather conditions, driving techiques/choices, TV variations in weight/wheel base/tire qualities/inflation, TT loading etc and how those variables directly relate to the myriad of driver performance expectations of their entire rig.

I tend to agree with a comment posted that there is no substitute for personal experience towing and figuring out, incrementally and conservatively, what you and your rig are capable of and comfortable with in various conditions. Again, great ideas and experiences shared that offer new 21ers like me informed opinions to compare my observations to. Keep sharing![/quote][p]This. Totally this. And the key IMO is the conservative approach. You don't start at or above spec and say "Hey, let's see what happens."[/p][p]
[/p][p]Case in point - I think Fast Eddie's Flex isn't up to the job. But so did he, and so he had some custom mods to his TV to address the specific gap. So all good.[/p][p]
[/p][p]It would be quite dangerous for someone to see his signature and say "hey, I got a Flex, I can do it too", without also committing to the same modification, chopped on by an engineer who knows what he's about.[/p][p]
[/p]

[pinstriper]

[quote source="/post/6155/thread" timestamp="1421895481" author="@surfsup"]Not hogwash at all - from Jayco's own promotional video, 32 units a day (less than 7 hours each) and this is just one assembly line.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jXMJrRQ3SVk[/quote][p]So, yeah. Proves the point. 7 hours each. They don't all start on the same day they are manufactured. They have - wait for it - around 32 units in process at any given point in time, assuming a steady state. Assuming they have a single 8 hour shift, there's a time of day where they have a few more, or a few less.[/p][p]
[/p][p]A LL unit can spend one week to go all the way through the line, and if the line is sized right, they could produce 100 a day. Or 10. Or 2. [/p][p]
[/p][p]Cycle time is only related to throughput if you also know the size of the backlog, or WIP/backlog, ie. Little's Law.[/p][p]
[/p][p]Your statement compared throughput per day of the entire line for Jayco, to a cycle time for a  lot size of 1 of 1 week for LL.[/p][p]
[/p][p]Comparing them on the basis of their throughput on each side would, I suppose, tell you something about...I dunno. Size ? Gross sales ? Market share ?[/p][p]
[/p][p]Comparing them on the basis of their unit manufacture cycle time would, I suppose, tell you something about...I dunno. Unit cost ? Quality ? Manufacturing efficiency ?[/p][p]
[/p][p]I don't think either figure is meaningful to the consumer, frankly. Which begs the question of why it's part of their marketing/promotion.[/p][p]
[/p][p]But anyway, comparing the manufacturers on the basis of one's cycle time versus the other's daily output is, in fact, hogwash. Not legit at all.[/p][p]
[/p]

[jtelles3993]

Uhm Yea, per the video... Jaycos start and roll out in 6-7 hours. Same day. I fully understand economy scale manufacturing concepts, but thanks anyway.

[dh50]

P'strip, S'up......you both miss the point of the video, which is to showcase Jayco's Amish workforce, a people with an unbelievable work ethic.  It is this Jayco claim that distinguishes them from the herd, a branding difficult today in Thor's vast land of RV .  Never did talk things Jayco with reps or owners where this point, "made by the Amish' was overlooked.  It would be akin to Livin Lite failing to mention 'all aluminum'.  

The Jayco video is showcasing the Amish workforce.  Ever see a LL video with their workforce busy building a trailer?  Found lots of aluminum skeletons, finished models or dealers' video tours,  but no actual manufacturing at LL's facility.  (If you know otherwise, please send link.)  Otherwise, what definitive conclusions can be drawn by the naive public as intended by the manufacturers in their promotion of product via their very different video approaches?   Perhaps one utilizes a superior workforce, the other, superior materials?  Or is this yet one more apples to orange comparison?  Me thinks so.   

It has been said that often we miss the forest for the trees.  Seems that expression might apply.  

GWBushhogwash 

[djsamuel]

Seeing the materials used in the Jayco trailer make me appreciate the LivinLite trailers even more.  

[tinkeringtechie]

[quote timestamp="1421948917" source="/post/6176/thread" author="@djsamuel"]Seeing the materials used in the Jayco trailer make me appreciate the LivinLite trailers even more.  [/quote]Yeah, after watching I thought to myself "this is a promotional video?... it makes me NOT want to buy their trailer"

[daplumbr]

Before we took delivery, my wife and I took a tour of the LL factory. It was great fun to see the "insides" so to speak. They took us to every stage of manufacturing except the paint room. The tour started with welding the floor frame and installing the axles. The superstructure was welded up next. The skeleton then went to another building for electrical and plumbing, then to another location to get the appliances installed before the insulation, walls and finishing touches were completed. In each building, the technicians worked on one trailer for multiple days. There was some assembly line aspect to it, but it was not really mass production. They were also doing custom work. Looking inside the walls and structure was especially interesting for the techie in me. I noted the type and gauge of wire, the sizing of plumbing, and quality of joints and splices. Nothing I saw worried me or caused me to cancel my order! My only concern was with the general lack of cleaning up all the aluminum dust, slag, and chips from the welding, sawing, and drilling. That was confirmed as a problem in my own 16TBS which came with that stuff everywhere I looked behind panels and fixtures (and shorted out at least one light). I'll still take that over wood and staples any day. And my only regret after the tour was that my dealer didn't let me know how much LL is able and willing to customize their trailers. It goes far beyond the limited list of options the dealer showed us (but then we ended up with a really lousy dealer, so I should have known). 

[pinstriper]

[quote source="/post/6173/thread" timestamp="1421944938" author="@gwbushhog"]P'strip, S'up......you both miss the point of the video, which is to showcase Jayco's Amish workforce, a people with an unbelievable work ethic.  It is this Jayco claim that distinguishes them from the herd, a branding difficult today in Thor's vast land of RV .  Never did talk things Jayco with reps or owners where this point, "made by the Amish' was overlooked.  It would be akin to Livin Lite failing to mention 'all aluminum'.  

The Jayco video is showcasing the Amish workforce.  Ever see a LL video with their workforce busy building a trailer?  Found lots of aluminum skeletons, finished models or dealers' video tours,  but no actual manufacturing at LL's facility.  (If you know otherwise, please send link.)  Otherwise, what definitive conclusions can be drawn by the naive public as intended by the manufacturers in their promotion of product via their very different video approaches?   Perhaps one utilizes a superior workforce, the other, superior materials?  Or is this yet one more apples to orange comparison?  Me thinks so.   

It has been said that often we miss the forest for the trees.  Seems that expression might apply.  

GWBushhogwash [/quote][p]So, I'm trying to keep a low profile on this topic going forward, after I shot for pithy and came up with jackass.[/p][p]
[/p][p]Now's as good a time as any to admit I didn't even watch the video. I was too caught up in what sounded like someone handing SU a line of bull.[/p][p]
[/p][p][Heads back to his chair in the corner]
[/p]