Sanity Check. Input Wanted.

[whoofit]

[p]Thought I would put my thought process down somewhere in writing to reinforce my recent decision to purchase a 16DB to pair with our 2014 Ford Escape Ti with factory tow package 3500# Tow cap. I know that next year I'll be wishing for a larger TV. So this is sort of a time capsule sanity check?[/p][p]
[/p][p]We have had an old 1988 Aljo Aly 24' TT setup in a seasonal campground for many years. Too heavy for our daily driver to pull throughout the years. We had fun there and in it but were always missing out on road trips to elsewhere because of the weight and age of it. Too old for a lot of campgrounds to even allow in so we found. We usually upgrade our new vehicle every few years but don't do the same with our trailer. We want a trailer to last forever.[/p][p]
[/p][p]But we want to travel with it now. Trips like 1000 - 2000 miles. Boondocking is our ultimate goal but never have done it. We know how to pack light and do without. We are ultralight backpackers. I can see never ever exceeding 3500# with the 16DB. Not even close really. Will even consider shedding the side mount A/C and microwave in it if it really made a difference.[/p][p]
[/p][p]So the TV is a little light for the intended purpose? Go slow and enjoy the journey.[/p][p]Upgrade to a larger TV next time (2 more years). Not a huge upgrade so it'll still be a good daily driver.[/p][p]Enjoy having gotten the 16DB that'll be pretty much good as new in 20 years with a little TLC. This when we may all be driving fuel cell or thorium reactor vehicles....heh heh heh.[/p][p]
[/p][p]Does this sound sane?[/p][p]
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[david]

[p]I think that you can keep the trailer weight below 3,500 lbs if you are careful. But I doubt if you will be happy with the performance. What engine do you have? I would want at least a 3 liter V6 to tow that trailer.[/p][p]
[/p][p]We tow our 16TBS which is 300 lbs heavier with a 3.5 liter V6. It is ok but by no means excessive.

David[/p]

[whoofit]

Hi David.

It's 240hp at 5000rpm and makes 270ft/lb torque at 3000 rpm. It is the 2.0 litre Eco Boost 4cyl intercooled turbo. Thing is real strong for a 4cyl. I question it's longevity in this TV role though.

I do suspect I'll prefer something longer, heavier and with a couple more cylinders in the near future. My TT towing experience is limited to towing a 1965 17' lead weight single axle TT with a 19eighty something Olds Cutlass some twenty years ago. Locally. Now THAT was an adventure.... Would never be so stupid again now with some maturity. But have to say it did work in a "what a stupid idea" sort of way.

Do you see a problem with the HP and Torque specs for say 55mph 6-8% grade stuff? Thanks!

[tinkeringtechie]

[quote timestamp="1424784772" source="/post/7122/thread" author="@whoofit"][p][span style="font-size:10pt;"]But we want to travel with it now. Trips like 1000 - 2000 miles. Boondocking is our ultimate goal but never have done it. We know how to pack light and do without. We are ultralight backpackers. I can see never ever exceeding 3500# with the 16DB. Not even close really. Will even consider shedding the side mount A/C and microwave in it if it really made a difference.[/span][/p][/quote]
I think you'd be surprised how quickly it all adds up. It's 2,750 dry (assuming that's accurate), but dry doesn't even include battery or propane. Add 150lb or so for that. Since you mention that you want to boondock, then you'll need to bring your own water at 8lbs/gallon. If you fill up, you're looking at 300lbs of water. So that's 3,200 without any food or camping gear. That's already too close to the limit in my opinion. Wouldn't you like to have the A/C and microwave?

So yes, it could possibly be done, but not without compromising. And even then it won't tow well. Personally I'd go for either the 11-13ft models or upgrade your tow vehicle. That way you'll be able to enjoy yourself while towing and not have to worry about how much stuff you can bring.

[whoofit]

[p]Hi Tinker.

Yes I do agree with all of this especially the compromise.

The totally prudent, unlimitedly funded, thing to do is as you said, a new tow vehicle or a smaller trailer. The vehicle is new and under warranty for some tens of thousands of miles yet. A trade-in now would hurt too much financially to bear (had to scrape up the cash for the trailer).

So we were left with the choice of getting a smaller TT for towing comfort zone reasons. I might be weird on a TT forum saying this but we wanted as much trailer as possible, never expecting to get another trailer, ever. And we wanted to be sure of enough space for any surprise grandkids in the future with the 16' vs the 13' or less. Enter the reason for the Camp Lite with it's "all metal and composite construction" for a premium price.

The daily driver we buy new religiously every few years anyway. The 16DB was a 2013 New Old Stock item and we saved some $10k doing it now.

So something tells me maybe I made the wrong choice for now but that can be corrected when we buy a new vehicle in a couple years. In the meantime struggle maybe a bit with our existing TV.

Is this a bad way of doing things? Again, I do want pure utter criticism....I can take it. And Thanks![/p][p]
[/p][p]PS Do you mean that Livin Lite's specs could be off? An error in their favor? I do understand that dry weight is very different than wet and the hitch mounted gear comes into play. I do appreciate the explanation. But is Livin' Lite fudging the numbers in any way?[/p][p]
[/p][p]And as far as the AC and micro goes. Not for boondocking. It would mean bringing the Eu2000i with LP conversion at another ~40lbs.[/p][p]
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[djsamuel]

You could also consider buying a used tow vehicle.  We purchased a 2009 Ram 1500 for our trailer and use it for camping and when we need the utility of the pickup.  Works great for us; and we can have the daily drivers separate (and better suited for daily commutes).

[whoofit]

[p]Thanks DJ.

Looks like a smart thing to do. Do you like it for these long distance road trips well enough? Was hoping to get by a couple years still under warranty. Then go with a highlander or something.[/p][p]
[/p][p]Should I suspect the Camp Lite weights to be significantly off?[/p]

[jtelles3993]

Those little EcoBoosts are great motors. If you've already made the TT purchase, worst case scenario is you just stay out of the really steep grades and forgo boondocking until you upgrade your TV. That still leaves you with more camping and adventures than you could do in a lifetime...

[whoofit]

Hi Surfsup.

I did only put a deposit on the trailer as of today. That is my commitment that I can break with the loss of the $1k. Other than the money I'd feel aweful about backing out for two reasons. Those being my honor and it is a screamin' deal. The $1k would be a lesson learned I guess.

I just don't want to be "that guy" on the highway that makes the men feel the need to protect the women and children from..... I drive very defensively and respectfully.

I'm definitely gonna heed your advice and keep my head leveled with my expectations of this combo.

[tinkeringtechie]

[quote source="/post/7132/thread" timestamp="1424792118" author="@whoofit"][p][span style="font-size:10pt;"]Should I suspect the Camp Lite weights to be significantly off?[/span]
[/p][/quote]Depends on your definition of significantly. The dry weight is probably correct +/- 50lbs since these are essentially hand built and there are always variances. BUT... what is considered in the dry weight is where they take their liberties. Was the fire extinguisher on there when they weighed it... how about the dining table? The water heater was definitely empty (that's 50lbs of water right there). There are other "maybes": Mattresses, carpet mats, etc...

So it could end up being +150lbs if none of that stuff was in the dry weight, and it's not like you're going to leave the fire extinguisher at home to save weight. Nor are you going to drain the hot water heater all the time.

[hogtyd]

I think you'll be fine with the Escape in the short-term.  You're already considering weight conservation and aware of the weight limits of your tow vehicle, which is more then 90% of TT owners seem to be familiar with, and as surfsup mentions, the 2.0L EcoBoost with the tow package is a nice combo.  It looks like the tow package even includes a built-in trailer controller?  

Graham

[pinstriper]

my recent decision to purchase a 16DB to pair with our 2014 Ford Escape Ti with factory tow package 3500# Tow cap

Not sane.

It is the 2.0 litre Eco Boost 4cyl intercooled turbo.

Not sane. It isn't about HP.

The daily driver we buy new religiously every few years anyway.

Not generally the best plan, financially. Not that you asked about this, but I just find it odd that you are throwing away lots of money here while also then complaining about losing money on upgrading the TV.

Do you see a problem with the HP and Torque specs for say 55mph 6-8% grade stuff? Thanks!

I don't think you appreciate what it takes to tow on a 6-8% grade and maintain 55mph. I think part of your compromise will be towing up those grades closer to 40-45 mph. Plus, you'll have to come down that same grade on a vehicle that weighs too much for a tow vehicle that weighs too little, has a short wheelbase, and whose brakes aren't rated for what you're trying to stop (even with trailer brakes). The tail will be wagging the dog.

Is this a bad way of doing things? Again, I do want pure utter criticism....I can take it. And Thanks!

I won't sugar coat it. Yes, it is a bad plan. You don't have enough tow vehicle to SAFELY tow your trailer. Forget about comfort. And some of us are on the same roads as you.

PS Do you mean that Livin Lite's specs could be off? An error in their favor?

The specs for dry are without options. Including the "XL Package" or whatever else was "stock". So they are understated by several hundred pounds, even before, as TT said, propane, the propane can, the battery, water, whatever you have in the dump tanks, etc.

For reference, our 14DBS, which we tow with (nearly) empty water tanks and dump before we leave the campground (which you can't do if you're boondocking) scales at 3700# consistently. Spec dry weight is 2650.

You can't pack light enough to make this safe and still boondock.

You might find it less financially painful to trade your new tow vehicle on an older, more capable tow vehicle. But you won't have a brand new, fully warranted tow vehicle anymore.

Or, if you already bought the TT, just store it for the next year or two until you have the tow vehicle. Which, if you think about it, might what it really took to make things work for you: buy a 2 year old ONS and let it sit until your tow vehicle catches up. And pocket the $10k difference.

But to be SURE...find the nearest scales, load it the way you plan to go - I mean with clothes and food and flashlights and beachballs and fishing rods and everything, tanks the way you will, etc. and go find out empirically. Then you'll know how far under/over you really are.

[whoofit]

Thanks all for helping. I really do appreciate the great input. No one has called me crazy. No one has warned me of impending doom. I know it's hard to get a sense of feel for anonymous internet personalities and prudent, conservative advice must be given to help ensure no loss of life or limb. You guys really pulled it off with class and I very much appreciate it.

Hope to see some of you all on the road at some point. I got a 30 day temp tag with the trailer and will need to save further to get the permanent ones mounted-up. Until then I need to snow chisel out a home for it in the backyard.

Going for it. Wish me luck!

Steve and April.

[spot1]

Congrats on your TT down payment/purchase and Hope to see you on the road, soon!

[whoofit]

Hi Graham.

The brake controller is additional. What the towing package gives you is the hitch, sensors and anti sway programmed into the vehicle. It's supposedly a way of sensing sway and automatically applying the brakes at each wheel independently to help reduce it. Sounds like a gas guzzling solution to a point but I'm not sure. Sway bars may be needed.

The Prodigy is already mounted though.