14DBS BREAKAWAY SWITCH ISSUE

[shortcircuit]

[font face="comic sans ms" size="3"][span][span]    [/span]I PURCHASED A NEW 14DBS IN APRIL OF THIS YEAR AND WE LOVE IT! AN ISSUE HAS COME UP RECENTLY THAT I THINK IS A SAFETY ISSUE PERHAPS ON ALL CAMPLITE TRAILERS. I DON'T KNOW IF ALL CAMPLITE TRAILERS ARE WIRED LIKE MY MODEL, BUT IT NEEDS TO BE ADDRESSED.
[span]    [/span]WE HAVE TAKEN OUR CAMPER OUT THREE TIMES AND IT HAS BEEN A JOY TO USE IT! WHEN AT HOME I MAINTAIN THE BATTERY BY KEEPING THE CAMPER PLUGGED INTO HOUSE POWER 50% OF THE TIME AND PLUG IT IN FOR A WEEK BEFORE WE GO OUT ON THE ROAD.
[span]    [/span]OUR CAMPER HAS AN AUXILIARY 12 VOLT BATTERY TO SUPPLY POWER TO THE BREAKAWAY SWITCH SYSTEM. I HAPPENED TO CHECK THIS BATTERY YESTERDAY AND FOUND THE VOLTAGE WAS AT 11 VOLTS! WAY BELOW WHAT IT SHOULD BE. IN TRACING OUT THE WIRING, I FOUND THE BATTERY POSITIVE LEAD GOES TO THE BREAKAWAY SWITCH, AND THE NEGATIVE LEAD GOES TO GROUND. WITH THE BREAKAWAY SWITCH NOT ENABLED, THE BATTERY POSITIVE LEAD IS AN OPEN CIRCUIT. ONLY WHEN THE BREAKAWAY SWITCH IS PULLED OUT IS IT CONNECTED TO THE ELECTRIACL BRAKING SYSTEM TO STOP THE TRAILER AT FULL BATTERY POWER.
[span]    [/span]THIS AUXILIARY BATTERY IS NOT CONNECTED TO THE CAMPER BATTERY CHARGER, AND IS THEREFORE NOT KEPT AT FULL CHARGE BUT IT SLOWLY DISCHARGES OVER TIME EVEN IF THE BREAKAWAY SWITCH IS NOT ACTIVATED.
[span]    [/span]I HAVE A SMALL "SEALED LEAD ACID BATTERY CHARGER" I USED TO CHARGE UP THIS BATTERY TO FULL CHARGE WHICH IN MY CASE IS ABOUT 13.5 VOLTS UNCONNECTED.
[span]    [/span]I DON'T KNOW IF ALL CAMPLITE TRAILERS ARE WIRED LIKE OURS, BUT YOU ALL NEED TO CHECK THE AUXILIARY BATTERY FOR YOUR BREAKAWAY SYSTEM TO BE SURE YOU WILL HAVE THE POWER TO STOP THE CAMPER IF THE BREAKAWAY SITUATION OCCURS.

[strong]MY QUESTION TO LIVIN' LITE IS THIS[/strong]: CAN I REMOVE THE AUXILIARY BATTERY AND CONNECT THE BREAKAWAY SYSTEM TO THE MAIN BATTERY SO IT IS MAINTAINED BY THE ONBOARD BATTERY CHARGER?

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[charliem]

[font size="3"]Shortcircuit,

Your post got me looking. I had always assumed (you know what that means) the small battery was being recharged by the converter. Not So. I confirmed the battery is not being charged. Voltage was 12.6, current was 0 while the converter was charging the main battery at 13.2V. This is indeed and issue. [/font][font size="3"]The label on the battery box not withstanding i[/font][font size="3"]t's unreasonable to assume users will check that battery every trip, disconnect it, and charge it separately from a charger. Then, to make it worse, they close it with a zip tie to really make it inconvenient. I understand the initial thinking: have the break away on a separate battery that's independent of the main 12V system and cannot be discharged by the camper load, but LL blew the implementation. In its present configuration it gives a false sense of security that could have been fixed by adding a single diode. BTW, several new CLs seem to be shipping without the battery entirely so either LL changed their approach or gave up completely. Many, if not all, other trailer makers rely solely on the house battery.

So I'd be interested in the comments of others and from LL. They may have already addressed the issue. If not, it needs to be addressed. At this time I'm torn between taking the battery out and wiring to the main battery or adding the diode. Maybe the thinking was that a small battery would stop the trailer and then discharge without burning up the brakes, but LL owes us this answer. The diode might be the best approach, but it would put the full capacity of the house battery on the brakes.  Jump in, Guys.
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[pinstriper]

I think the factory needs to chime in here as to the intended procedure to keep this battery charged.

[funpilot]

[quote source="/post/2411/thread" timestamp="1407540406" author="@charliem"][font size="3"]Shortcircuit,

Your post got me looking. I had always assumed (you know what that means) the small battery was being recharged by the converter. Not So. I confirmed the battery is not being charged. Voltage was 12.6, current was 0 while the converter was charging the main battery at 13.2V. This is indeed and issue. [/font][font size="3"]The label on the battery box not withstanding i[/font][font size="3"]t's unreasonable to assume users will check that battery every trip, disconnect it, and charge it separately from a charger. Then, to make it worse, they close it with a zip tie to really make it inconvenient. I understand the initial thinking: have the break away on a separate battery that's independent of the main 12V system and cannot be discharged by the camper load, but LL blew the implementation. In its present configuration it gives a false sense of security that could have been fixed by adding a single diode. BTW, several new CLs seem to be shipping without the battery entirely so either LL changed their approach or gave up completely. Many, if not all, other trailer makers rely solely on the house battery.

So I'd be interested in the comments of others and from LL. They may have already addressed the issue. If not, it needs to be addressed. At this time I'm torn between taking the battery out and wiring to the main battery or adding the diode. Maybe the thinking was that a small battery would stop the trailer and then discharge without burning up the brakes, but LL owes us this answer. The diode might be the best approach, but it would put the full capacity of the house battery on the brakes.  Jump in, Guys.
[/font][/quote][p]Do you know which models they are?[/p][p]
[/p]

[charliem]

[quote source="/post/2413/thread" timestamp="1407542865" author="@funpilot"][p]Do you know which models they are?[/p][p]
[/p][/quote][font size="3"]Not sure what you're asking. As I recall TinkeringTechie got his 21 with no separate brake battery.
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[funpilot]

[quote source="/post/2414/thread" timestamp="1407543973" author="@charliem"][quote source="/post/2413/thread" timestamp="1407542865" author="@funpilot"][p]Do you know which models they are?[/p][p]
[/p][/quote][font size="3"]Not sure what you're asking. As I recall TinkeringTechie got his 21 with no separate brake battery.
[/font][/quote]I was asking if you knew which models did not come with a separate brake battery, which you nicely answered.  THANKS.  

[djsamuel]

[quote source="/post/2415/thread" timestamp="1407545637" author="@funpilot"][quote source="/post/2414/thread" timestamp="1407543973" author="@charliem"][font size="3"]Not sure what you're asking. As I recall TinkeringTechie got his 21 with no separate brake battery.
[/font][/quote]I was asking if you knew which models did not come with a separate brake battery, which you nicely answered.  THANKS.  
[/quote]His is the only 21 I know of that did not have the battery.  Mine does.  If there was a design change that utilizes the main battery for this, it would be nice to know.

[farmboy]

I believe that each state has different breakaway switch regulations.  ; I wonder if the dealers install them, in compliance with local regulations,  when they are needed?  

[kennyhen]

I would like to just wire it to the house battery. Does anyone here on this thread have the ability to draw out the plans and what diode needs to be used?

Thanks

Jared

[charliem]

[quote source="/post/2557/thread" timestamp="1407950498" author="@jaredudall"]I would like to just wire it to the house battery. Does anyone here on this thread have the ability to draw out the plans and what diode needs to be used?

Thanks

Jared[/quote][font size="3"]After thinking about it I 'm now thinking a relay might be the best solution. The pure diode solution requires two diodes and adds voltage drop to the main battery charging circuit, which is a bad thing. The options are, in order of increasing "goodness":

[/font][ol type="decimal"][li][font size="3"]Do nothing. The BB (Brake Battery) will not be charged from either converter or TV. Probably will be discharged when needed.[/font][/li][li][font size="3"]Remove BB and wire directly to house battery. BB will charge from converter or TV, but can be discharged by TT. This is the way most TTs are wired.[/font][/li][li][font size="3"]Add relay. BB will charge only from TV, but will not be discharged
my TT. Small BB will quickly discharge limiting the heat buildup in the
brakes. The relay is powered from the TV charge line.[/font][/li][/ol][p][font size="3"]
[/font][/p][p][font size="3"]Options 2 is simple, but hooks the TT house battery to the brakes after breakaway and maintains current flow until the TT battery discharges. This may burn up the brake magnets. I don't know if this is really a problem. Option 3 cures this problem at the cost of added complexity. It also allows BB charging only when the TV is running, but I think this will be OK. Adding a charge capability from the converter adds more relay logic; probably more trouble than it's worth. When I get back from the present trip I'll look into this in more detail and post my updates.
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[david]

Charlie:

How about a fourth solution:

AGMs have a very low self discharge rate, reportedly 1-2% per month. So the BB will only be discharged about 10% after 6 months. So how about twice a year, temporarily connecting the BB to the TB with a jumper while the trailer is connected to shore power and the converter is charging. The BB will recharge within a few hours. Then disconnect the jumper for another 6 months.

That is what I am going to do, at least this summer. This winter I will do away with the BB and wire the break away switch to the TB. If the brake magnets burn up that will be the least of my problems if the break away energizes ;-).

The relay should work, but I would install one with a large amperage capability and large wiring from the TB through the relay to the BB. If the BB is completely discharged it will draw a lot of current from the TB when the relay pulls in. Even though the TV's 12V connection is self limiting (long run of 10 gauge wire) the TB can supply a lot of current. I would use 8 gauge and a 50 amp rated relay and a 50 amp fuse at the TB for ultimate safety.

And since the TV's 12V connection is connected directly to the TB you will need a blocking diode to only pull in the relay when the TV is connected.

Gets kind of complicated. I am liking the second solution more and more.

David

[charliem]

[quote source="/post/2577/thread" timestamp="1407960225" author="@david"]Charlie:

How about a fourth solution:

AGMs have a very low self discharge rate, reportedly 1-2% per month. So the BB will only be discharged about 10% after 6 months. So how about twice a year, temporarily connecting the BB to the TB with a jumper while the trailer is connected to shore power and the converter is charging. The BB will recharge within a few hours. Then disconnect the jumper for another 6 months.

That is what I am going to do, at least this summer. This winter I will do away with the BB and wire the break away switch to the TB. If the brake magnets burn up that will be the least of my problems if the break away energizes ;-).

The relay should work, but I would install one with a large amperage capability and large wiring from the TB through the relay to the BB. If the BB is completely discharged it will draw a lot of current from the TB when the relay pulls in. Even though the TV's 12V connection is self limiting (long run of 10 gauge wire) the TB can supply a lot of current. I would use 8 gauge and a 50 amp rated relay and a 50 amp fuse at the TB for ultimate safety.

And since the TV's 12V connection is connected directly to the TB you will need a blocking diode to only pull in the relay when the TV is connected.

Gets kind of complicated. I am liking the second solution more and more.

David[/quote][font size="3"] David,

I generally agree with you. I also thought that the burned up brake magnets might be the least of my worries, but I just wanted to think the thing through. Maybe someone more knowledgeable will jump in and tell me the brake mags can withstand 100% duty cycle. I wish LL would comment and reveal their reasoning. As for the sealed AGMs, I'm not really familiar with that technology but your thoughts seem reasonable. Just another thing to keep track of. I'll waste a few more brain cells on this and jump in one direction or another.
[/font]

[kennyhen]

Thanks for the answers. I grew up on a ranch and all our trailers had breakaway protection and all the batteries were charged by the Tow Vehicle. My VRV is wired to charge the house batteries but I need to validate that the BB is not in the circuit. I currently don't like the the house batteries are charged by the TV. I have a 235 watt solar panel on too and in a trip greater than 1 hour the charge controller shows an overcharge and shuts down but the batteries keep charging greater than 14.4 volts which isn't good. I will do some more research and let ya'll know what I find.

Adios

Jared