Something we may take for granted...brakes

[admin]

Two days ago I experienced one of those events we all hope never happen. I had a total failure of my brakes while traveling on US-1 here in central NC. Before going to far let me say I was beyond fortunate and avoided having an accident so all in all everything turned out for the best.
So back to the story...I was about 15 or 20 miles into my daily commute while approaching a traffic jam. I went to apply the brakes and my pedal goes to the floor. Warning lights and bells go off like crazy and the traction control tries to kick in with no luck. I had no brake pressure at all. Now I would like to say I had enough time to reasonably find a safe way to stop but unfortunately this all happened in mere seconds. Everything I did was reactionary and purely based on my driving training and experience. I was looking for my possible evasive action routes while trying to apply the only brake I had left. The parking brake. In the end I was able to get the car stopped and to the should from the middle travel lane without an accident. I felt confident and in control while simultaneously feeling helplessness knowing I had very few options if the parking brake failed, or if there had been cars immediately to my left or right.

After getting to the side of the road I was right into troubleshooting mode, before my nerves kicked in. Nothing was obviously wrong until I looked under the truck to find the driver rear pouring fluid. The fluid was coming from above the frame rail. This was not looking good.

I managed to get a tow to a local shop to find out my steel brake line had rusted out at the last 90 degree bend in the tube. It had just blown right out with no warning. I have now had them replace all the rusted lines but it is an experience I will never forget. Just the day before we had taken our boat to the lake (24 foot pontoon) and debated about towing it with the truck. I can't even imagine losing the brakes while towing something that large with the family on board.

We all think about the basics like brake pads and fluid but if we can get a lesson out of this it's to not take the rest of the systems for granted. Don't let out of sight become out of mind. I hope no one ever has to experience this for themselves but with any luck this will at least bring it up so you might think about the what if scenario.

-Sean

[david]

Glad all turned out well.

Just out of curiosity, if you had been towing a trailer with electric brakes, would the controller have worked? I think that there are two parts to that question:

1. Is the signal going to the brake controller activated by pedal position or by brake fluid pressure. If it is the later then I don't think it would activate.

2. If it does activate and it is a Prodigy or other inertial controller, you would just get minimal trailer braking as the rig wouldn't decelerate much, maybe some more when you jammed on the parking brake. If it was a simple time delay controller then you would get full trailer braking, but only if it were activated by pedal position.

As you note the lesson is to keep your brakes in top condition.

David

[admin]

My truck is equipped with a simple brake controller, though I do not tow anything with brakes. The controller appears to be activated by pedal position as I see it light up with even the slightest touch of the brakes. As far as force applied I cant begin to guess. I do know it has a manual activation so with enough time I could force the controller to apply significant trailer brake pressure but that would not have even been an option for my event.

On a side note, I'm now convinced that I want a true emergency brake. The problem with a parking brake is that I had very minimal control and it was not easily used in an emergency situation. Which makes sense since its only a parking brake. I'm just glad they didn't tie it into the regular hydraulics or else I would have truly been SOL.

[charliem]

[font size="3"]Sean,

Obviously we're all glad you're OK and cheated the grim reaper. As I remember, back in the old days, autos had two separate and separated hydraulic brake systems, one front and one rear, just to prevent such an concurrence. If one failed the other was isolated and would still work. It somehow involved a balancing valve such that the two pressures had to be somewhat equal and was a pain when you had to bleed the system, but it worked. Has this feature gone by the wayside with "improvements" and computer control of everything?  Maybe David or others have some experience here?

Anyway, thank G you're OK...................
[/font]

[pinstriper]

My truck is equipped with a simple brake controller, though I do not tow anything with brakes. The controller appears to be activated by pedal position as I see it light up with even the slightest touch of the brakes. As far as force applied I cant begin to guess. I do know it has a manual activation so with enough time I could force the controller to apply significant trailer brake pressure but that would not have even been an option for my event.

On a side note, I'm now convinced that I want a true emergency brake. The problem with a parking brake is that I had very minimal control and it was not easily used in an emergency situation. Which makes sense since its only a parking brake. I'm just glad they didn't tie it into the regular hydraulics or else I would have truly been SOL.

Pretty sure the parking brake is on a cable, not fluid.

Our trailers brakes will stop everything. When ours hopped off the ball I had the presence of mind to NOT HIT THE BRAKE PEDAL which would have let the trailer hit the back of the tow vehicle, and instead just mashed on the controller and let the chains drag us to a stop.

[admin]

@pinstriper, I can guarantee it is mechanical / cable driven which is the only reason why it still worked for me. At least in my truck it only seems to connect to the driver side front wheel but at least it works on a separate system.

[sheepcreek]

Hi Sean, I got a knot in my stomach when I read the first paragraph of your post! I read it out loud to Doug and we are very relieved to hear that you were able to stop the car safely.
We will heed your warning and have the brake lines on our vehicle checked! Thanks for posting this and perhaps it should get a 'sticky', this is life-saving advice.


Karen

[daplumbr]

Whew! Glad you had the presence of mind to get safe. Many would have panicked. Good work. Modern brake systems are extraordinarily complex affairs that do amazing things but can be done in by something as mundane as rust. My son's Civic lost all braking to a rusted line....in the driveway!  

The P3 controller has a manual lever and if adjusted properly will stop the whole rig with no dependence at all on the TV brakes or pedal. But not quickly!  

[nchiker]

[quote source="/post/24609/thread" timestamp="1473878545" author="@charliem"][font size="3"]Sean,

Obviously we're all glad you're OK and cheated the grim reaper. As I remember, back in the old days, autos had two separate and separated hydraulic brake systems, one front and one rear, just to prevent such an concurrence. If one failed the other was isolated and would still work. It somehow involved a balancing valve such that the two pressures had to be somewhat equal and was a pain when you had to bleed the system, but it worked. Has this feature gone by the wayside with "improvements" and computer control of everything?  Maybe David or others have some experience here?

Anyway, thank G you're OK...................
[/font][/quote]I am pretty sure my Subaru has 2 separate systems; one is for the right front and left rear, the other for the left front and right rear. So, that idea of 2 systems is still around.

[nchiker]

[quote timestamp="1473874106" source="/post/24604/thread" author="@admin"]
I managed to get a tow to a local shop to find out my steel brake line had rusted out at the last 90 degree bend in the tube. It had just blown right out with no warning. I have now had them replace all the rusted lines but it is an experience I will never forget. Just the day before we had taken our boat to the lake (24 foot pontoon) and debated about towing it with the truck. I can't even imagine losing the brakes while towing something that large with the family on board.

We all think about the basics like brake pads and fluid but if we can get a lesson out of this it's to not take the rest of the systems for granted. Don't let out of sight become out of mind. I hope no one ever has to experience this for themselves but with any luck this will at least bring it up so you might think about the what if scenario.

-Sean [/quote]Wow! You are very fortunate, and I am very glad nobody got hurt.
I wonder if this should be reported to the NHTSA? Is it normal for brake lines to rust out over time?

[admin]

[font size="3"]Sean,

Obviously we're all glad you're OK and cheated the grim reaper. As I remember, back in the old days, autos had two separate and separated hydraulic brake systems, one front and one rear, just to prevent such an concurrence. If one failed the other was isolated and would still work. It somehow involved a balancing valve such that the two pressures had to be somewhat equal and was a pain when you had to bleed the system, but it worked. Has this feature gone by the wayside with "improvements" and computer control of everything?  Maybe David or others have some experience here?

Anyway, thank G you're OK...................
[/font]

I can't say for sure if that has gone away. If there were two isolated systems then it certainly did not provide enough feedback to feel confident in it. I know while I was on the side of the road the car would start moving when I only had the brake pedal depressed. Considering the front brakes are in good condition (having replaced the brake pads less than 5000 miles ago) I would expect it to at least keep the truck still while at engine idle. Perhaps I should prepare myself to hear from the mechanic that there is more to be repaired...

In any case after thinking about this, I would be surprised if isolated systems were removed. That just seems like a common sense safety backup.

[admin]

I started digging further into this and found numerous articles that GM has a known issue with brake lines rupturing like this. Apparently they still maintain that it is not a manufacturing issue but rather a maintenance issue. NHTSA has had an investigation opened but I haven't gotten to the official investigation at the time of this update.

[admin]

The NHTSA had an open investigation on GM vehicles that apparently was open prior to my model year and according to some, should have included my model year but that never happened. If interested here is the full closure report on the investigation: http://www.safercar.gov/staticfiles/safercar/pdf/EA11-001_closing_rpt.pdf
They state no specific defect was found beyond a possibly inferior brake line coating in combination with the 'salt belt' states. So in short its a known issue with at least one more registered complaint. No recall was ever issued, and nothing is recommended beyond regular inspection of the lines.

[david]

[quote source="/post/24623/thread" author="@nchiker" timestamp="1473942195"][quote source="/post/24609/thread" author="@charliem" timestamp="1473878545"][font size="3"]Sean,

Obviously we're all glad you're OK and cheated the grim reaper. As I remember, back in the old days, autos had two separate and separated hydraulic brake systems, one front and one rear, just to prevent such an concurrence. If one failed the other was isolated and would still work. It somehow involved a balancing valve such that the two pressures had to be somewhat equal and was a pain when you had to bleed the system, but it worked. Has this feature gone by the wayside with "improvements" and computer control of everything?  Maybe David or others have some experience here?

Anyway, thank G you're OK...................
[/font][/quote]I am pretty sure my Subaru has 2 separate systems; one is for the right front and left rear, the other for the left front and right rear. So, that idea of 2 systems is still around.
[/quote][p]I believe that auto brakes have been using two separate systems for several decades now and still do. They are almost entirely independent with two master cylinder pistons, brake pipe and hose and wheel calipers. So for Sean to have lost all brakes, leads me to believe that he had previously lost one system and the failure in the brake pipe caused the second system to fail with no braking at all.[/p][p]
[/p][p]I am sure his mechanic will tell him what happened after the dust settles.[/p][p]
[/p][p]David
[/p]

[admin]

I got word from the mechanic yesterday. The truck is equipped with dual circuits for the brakes, however both circuits running to the rear parallel each other nearly the entire path from the engine compartment to the rear. The rusted lines were most heavily damaged at a 90 degree bend near the end of the run. We can only speculate on the timing and ultimately the root cause, but we know for a fact that the 1 circuit blew out where the rust had weakened it at the bend. The second line appears to have only cracked due to a combination of the rust and (like David surmised) increased load from the first failure. From the looks of other reports of similar failures my truck made it far longer than most but it was only a matter of time.