Grampa Kilt from BC Canada

[grampakilt]

Time to leave further posting about this debate to others save for this last one.

Confession time--no way did I make an "objective" decision, rather an informed one. It was based on information from a variety of sources and the expertise of the AirStream dealer which I choose to trust; a trust itself based on many factors. I will be the first to admit that all this information went through a grid of biases and presuppositions upon which (I would argue) all of use to make decisions. I fixed the link in my 'story' post earlier. Please investigate and evaluate. Naysayers may still want to call me crazy, but I hope they won't feel the need to hit the ditch if my towing setup happens their way. GK

[whoofit]

Whoofit, that's a good point and I was really talking about a unibody sedan. Plus of course the other components of a sedan being unadequate has nothing to do with unibody, but that's sorta how my post reads.

Oh, I read your post and it all came across just fine. I agree. No argument here. Just stating what I know. I think if VW was confident in the Jetta's abilities to tow these numbers and live a healthy life they would shout it from the rooftops for all to hear instead of dividing by two....or four. I mean, especially VW in light of their current state of affairs...

[whoofit]

[quote source="/post/23596/thread" timestamp="1470241586" author="@grampakilt"]
Please investigate and evaluate. Naysayers may still want to call me crazy, but I hope they won't feel the need to hit the ditch if my towing setup happens their way. GK[/quote]Not so fast there Grampa. While towing the 16DB with the Escape I had peeelenty of quips fired my way by the local riff-raff. I am especially fond of this one: "No, I didn't fear for my life, I feared for yours. When I saw you coming down the hill I thought you were fleeing a runaway trailer! Almost dialed 911!"

That one got me rolling in laughter....

Anyways, be safe and take it slow. Things have a funny way of jumping out at you on the highway at speed. I have a whitetail deer fan somewhere back in Indiana that thanks me for having an F150 that night. I try not to imagine towing with anything less that night as it gives me a sinking feeling when I do.

[djsamuel]

[quote source="/post/23613/thread" author="@whoofit" timestamp="1470251346"]

Please investigate and evaluate. Naysayers may still want to call me crazy, but I hope they won't feel the need to hit the ditch if my towing setup happens their way. GK

Not so fast there Grampa. While towing the 16DB with the Escape I had peeelenty of quips fired my way by the local riff-raff. I am especially fond of this one: "No, I didn't fear for my life, I feared for yours. When I saw you coming down the hill I thought you were fleeing a runaway trailer! Almost dialed 911!"

That one got me rolling in laughter....

Anyways, be safe and take it slow. Things have a funny way of jumping out at you on the highway at speed. I have a whitetail deer fan somewhere back in Indiana that thanks me for having an F150 that night. I try not to imagine towing with anything less that night as it gives me a sinking feeling when I do.
[/quote]This^^^  Emergency stops would be my greatest concern.

[billmoore]

[quote source="/post/23614/thread" author="@djsamuel" timestamp="1470252162"]
This^^^  Emergency stops would be my greatest concern.[/quote]That and what a WDH that has been welded onto a unibody that was not designed for one will do to that unibody over time from the normal forces exerted by the trailer.  Not to mention what would happen if he ever were involved in what otherwise might be a minor fender bender (I envision something like a can opener effect)...

[thudd3r]

i choose to believe that if you get in an accident while exceeding the gvwr or tow ratings, insurance is going to drop you like a bad habit and you will be paying any and all damages out of pocket.

[whoofit]

[quote timestamp="1470252162" source="/post/23614/thread" author="@djsamuel"][quote timestamp="1470251346" source="/post/23613/thread" author="@whoofit"][/quote][/quote]They do what is called the "Moose Test" on newer vehicles. The incident I had was nearly a textbook one. 65 mph hard brake and swerve. Late at night on my ~700th mile I wasn't thinking all that clearly. I think the Jetta, Escape or Cherokee would have flipped or knifed. I would hope Grampa has his P3 boosted to lead the TV brakes at the very least.

My wife slept right through this....dog was freaking out.

[hogtyd]

[quote source="/post/23622/thread" author="@thudd3r" timestamp="1470270970"]i choose to believe that if you get in an accident while exceeding the gvwr or tow ratings, insurance is going to drop you like a bad habit and you will be paying any and all damages out of pocket. [/quote]
That is an often repeated but incorrect assumption, at least as it relates to honoring your policy. However, once your claim is paid, not having your policy renewed would be a very real possibility...just as it would with any major policy claim or driving infraction. 

[pinstriper]

I've been trying to find a GCVWR for the Jetta and coming up empty. And VW doesn't let you access the owners manual unless you create an account.

Back of the napkin, the trailer loaded up will be somewhere between 3500 and 4000. The Jetta's curb weight I found said 3750. Add a few adults and gear and a full tank of gas, figure somewhere in the 4500 range, maybe even closer to 5000.

The Jetta would need a GCVWR pushing 8500 or even 9 grand to be within that limit.

The reason we're (or me, anyway) are being hard-asses about this is not because we think we'll convince GK. We won't. That's clear. But maybe we can dissuade a drive-by reader from thinking this is a good idea.

[whoofit]

Lack of published GCVWR seems to be more common these days even on vehicles meant to tow (at least part-time). Not to get off-topic here again but our new Cherokee is one of them. It took several calls and emails to FCA through their Wave Program in order for me to find the answers I needed to calculate safety margins.

I took this as a bad omen but bought the Jeep anyway.

[charliem]

[quote timestamp="1470323476" source="/post/23635/thread" author="@whoofit"]Lack of published GCVWR seems to be more common these days even on vehicles meant to tow (at least part-time). ...............

[font size="3"]Perhaps, just perhaps, this is a recognition that weight is not the only factor in towing capability and the complete story is beyond all except us Geeks. So they omit the details and joyously plan to sell bigger TVs when the small ones are found to be inadequate. A side benefit is they can keep more lawyers fully employed arguing with dissatisfied owners.

P.S. I didn't sleep in a Holiday Inn last night, but I did have a healthy dose of cynicism this morning    .
[/font][/quote]

[grampakilt]

I know I'm breaking my vow of silence, but...2 comments:

1. The most vociferous of detractors have not explained why Jetta's in Europe are rated to tow 1500 kg (3300 lbs) with a tongue weight of 150 kg. This is without any WD and sometimes no electric brakes on the 'caravan'. I don't think one can accuse the Europeans of taking a callous attitude towards safety.

2. A previous poster choose to believe something on my behalf. Funny but sad, especially when belief is based on a lack of information or the erroneous kind. There's a Trump-esque quip making the rounds that defines a Canadian as "an unarmed person with free health care". The point? Inasmuch as we are alike, some things are really different in Canada, not just what's made fun of in the joke. Take insurance for instance. In BC, we have only one provider for vehicle liability, a provincial (state) owned company called ICBC and every driver must have this insurance. The insurance itself is called 'no-fault'. That is, no matter who's to blame, insurance covers the accident, liability wise. (if I was DUI, I might have to repay ICBC). If there are injuries, health care is 'free' so to speak and not really an insurance issue. If I was responsible/partly at fault for the accident, I will have to pay a higher premium, the amount depending on my driving record, but liability insurance can't be denied if I'm still allowed to drive. Now make your choice, poster.

I rarely join forums but decided on this one because I appreciated the ideas it generated for my own CL and felt like giving back with a few mod posts of my own. Certainly, I never expected my TV set-up to generate such angst. So, as Forrest Gump said, "That's all I have to say about that." Really! GK

[billmoore]

[quote source="/post/23642/thread" author="@grampakilt" timestamp="1470330241"]1. The most vociferous of detractors have not explained why Jetta's in Europe are rated to tow 1500 kg (3300 lbs) with a tongue weight of 150 kg. This is without any WD or electric brakes on the 'caravan'. I don't think one can accuse the Europeans of taking a callous attitude towards safety.
[/quote]In Europe there is a 50 mph speed limit on vehicles towing a trailer, strictly enforced. Also much more comprehensive driver training.

[pinstriper]

Lack of published GCVWR seems to be more common these days even on vehicles meant to tow (at least part-time). Not to get off-topic here again but our new Cherokee is one of them. It took several calls and emails to FCA through their Wave Program in order for me to find the answers I needed to calculate safety margins.

I took this as a bad omen but bought the Jeep anyway.

It should be on a sticker on the vehicle somewhere. I thought that was mandatory.

[buffresmgnt]

Yes, the Jetta is rated to tow 3,300 lbs in Europe but there are other factors / conditions that play into using this vehicle as a TV. Primarily for me is that in searching the web I cannot find where the Jetta is approved for towing by the manufacture, in no place is a Jetta listed as being available with a "tow package" (larger radiator, high output alternator, larger brakes, etc.) and that the only hitch assembly that I could find for this particular vehicle is a class 1 hitch with a max gross trailer weight of 2,000 lbs and a tongue weight of 200 lbs - not exactly the  hitch I would use to tow an Airstream.  

Below is a quotation from UKtow.com (tow ratings and guidelines for towing in Great Britain):


"Loading your trailer or caravan is critical to safe driving check your towing weights and capacity for your vehicle. Getting this wrong can cost you dearly.

You can buy towing scales which measure the total weight of your towed load to make sure that it doesn't exceed the capacity of your vehicle but equally important is to make sure that your load is spread evenly.

The following was submitted to CLIC by Ian Willis in answer to an inquiry about the 85% beginners towing rule. It was generally thought within CLIC, that Ian's words helped to clarify the situation as regards to towing in Great Britain. 85% (or even 100%) rules are not "rules" but guidelines which have no substance in law. They are designed to ensure that the outfit will be stable (all other factors being equal). Exceeding this figure, whilst not illegal in itself, COULD lead to prosecution if the driver was stopped because of (say) instability or after an accident as there is a requirement on the driver to ensure the safety of his vehicle in the Construction and Use Regulations. Usually a manufacturer will quote a tow weight which is far greater than the mass of the vehicle. Generally this is based on the total train weight (car + caravan) which can be started on a 12% gradient. Where this weight (or any other e.g. nose weight) is given as lower by the manufacturer the user ignores it at his peril. Insurance could well be void after an accident - worse, the illegal combination could cause the accident if the vehicle is unable to handle it.

The big problem we have in the UK is the traffic density, especially on Motorways, which has caravans in close proximity to both cars and large goods vehicles at speed. The vortices encountered can cause trailers to wander if not loaded correctly and matched to the towing vehicle."