CL21BHS and Highlander

[whoofit]

[quote timestamp="1470307559" source="/post/23628/thread" author="@paul"][quote source="/post/23623/thread" author="@fasteddieb" timestamp="1470272294"][/quote][/quote]Just so you know. The frontal area ratings in the Ford Towing Guides are there so you don't exceed the ability of the cooling systems for the engines and transmissions at extreme temperature, terrain, speed and load conditions. I hit those limits a few times with the Escape and 16DB combo. The Escape went into "Limp Mode" until it cooled. You probably would have hit them while pulling your 13'er too if it saw the stretches of road we were on at that time.

There is probably a road safety argument somewhere against towing a 21'er with a Flex. If there was, frontal area would be low on that list if not non-existent. I think Eddy would have seen signs of frontal area issues by now. "Need to turn off the A/C" was an early hint for us.

[david]

I think fasteddie has strengthened the tow hitch attachment on his Flex, so the only worries are engine life, not safety. If he goes slow he will be fine. But one caution- using cruise control rather than letting the rig slow down going up hills adds additional stress. The engine has to work hard to keep the rig moving at its set speed with cruise control. Letting the rig slow naturally by 10 mph or so puts much less stress on the engine.

I will try to post something on the frontal area thread about going up hills- fast and slow.

David

[gnies]

[quote timestamp="1470312809" source="/post/23629/thread" author="@whoofit"][quote source="/post/23628/thread" author="@paul" timestamp="1470307559"][/quote]Just so you know. The frontal area ratings in the Ford Towing Guides are there so you don't exceed the ability of the cooling systems for the engines and transmissions at extreme temperature, terrain, speed and load conditions. I hit those limits a few times with the Escape and 16DB combo. The Escape went into "Limp Mode" until it cooled. You probably would have hit them while pulling your 13'er too if it saw the stretches of road we were on at that time.

There is probably a road safety argument somewhere against towing a 21'er with a Flex. If there was, frontal area would be low on that list if not non-existent. I think Eddy would have seen signs of frontal area issues by now. "Need to turn off the A/C" was an early hint for us.

[/quote]I didn't had that issue with my 13 and my Escape probably because it was less weight than yours. I was probably fine even if I was exceeding the frontal area limit, but still a pickup truck is better at the job than my Escape and it feel safer and it is easier to tow with. I am probably too conservative but I take safety very seriously and feel better not taking the chance by knowing I am exceeding the limit. The Escape was more limiting with the stuff I could bring with me because of the space and payload limit being lower. If I was a family of 5 like the OP I wouldn't risk it since he would most likely be over the payload of is SUV with the weight of everyone + the stuff + the tongue weight. I would go with a truck or a larger SUV that is built on truck frame

[jeanbenjaminl]

I was looking at the F150 on the net.

They sell a version with a 2.7 Ecoboost, that seems to be getting the same MPG as my Sienna!! 
This truck is supposed to be able to pull 7500 pounds, what do you thing about it as a tow vehicle for a 21BHS?
It 2000 pounds over the GVWR of the 21BHS, but still only a 2.7 litter engine. 

Thanks!

[gnies]

[quote source="/post/23662/thread" timestamp="1470419670" author="@jeanbenjaminl"]I was looking at the F150 on the net.

They sell a version with a 2.7 Ecoboost, that seems to be getting the same MPG as my Sienna!!   
This truck is supposed to be able to pull 7500 pounds, what do you thing about it as a tow vehicle for a 21BHS?
It 2000 pounds over the GVWR of the 21BHS, but still only a 2.7 litter engine. 

Thanks![/quote]I do have the F150 with the 2.7L Ecoboost, it is a incredible engine, it has a lot of torque. It's not so good on gas when you tow and that's normal but on highway it's really good and it's not too bad in the city, you won't be disappointed 

I haven't really looked at all the numbers for the 21BHS but I think it should be within specs ? Anyone else can check all the numbers?


EDIT: Looking at all the numbers I think it would be better to get the 3.5L Ecoboost instead for the 21BHS

[david]

[p]2.7 liters is 2.7 liters no matter how turbocharged it is and how much horsepower it produces. Lots of horsepower out of a small engine is great for: merging on the freeway, passing on narrow roads and impressing your girlfriend; all while driving, not towing.[/p][p]
[/p][p]It is a little surprising to me that Ford changed from a 35 sq ft maximum for the 3.5 liter in the 2011 Flex, to presumably more (Paul- you if anyone should know) to perhaps 70 sq foot for their 2.7 liter engine.

If you want to tow something as heavy as a 21, get something with more liters- 4.0 minimum.

David[/p]

[whoofit]

[p]2.7 liters is 2.7 liters no matter how turbocharged it is and how much horsepower it produces. Lots of horsepower out of a small engine is great for: merging on the freeway, passing on narrow roads and impressing your girlfriend; all while driving, not towing.[/p][p]
[/p][p]It is a little surprising to me that Ford changed from a 35 sq ft maximum for the 3.5 liter in the 2011 Flex, to presumably more (Paul- you if anyone should know) to perhaps 70 sq foot for their 2.7 liter engine.

If you want to tow something as heavy as a 21, get something with more liters- 4.0 minimum.

David[/p]

I think you will find this interesting. Ford doesn't have any bias towards any of their engine sizes with regard to frontal area. They take no exception to a 2.7l vs a 5.0l. The base frontal area is 36 sq ft.

In a fifth wheel application ALL of their powertrains equipped with towing or payload packages can manage 75 sq foot.
In towing applications where the truck is rated to tow between 5000 and 7700 lbs the frontal area is restricted to 55 sq ft.
In towing applications where the truck is rated to tow 7701 lbs and up the frontal area is restricted to 60 sq ft.

Any of the engines save the lowest 3.5l normally aspirated can be made to tow max frontal area by selecting the proper gear ratio and including a tow package or payload package. The key is in the cooling, right?

For anyone looking for the straight skinny here is the link. http://www.fleet.ford.com/resources/ford/general/pdf/towingguides/Ford_Linc_16RVTTgde_r3_Nov12.pdf

All proudly derived form the new industry standard testing too.

[fasteddieb]

I think fasteddie has strengthened the tow hitch attachment on his Flex, so the only worries are engine life, not safety. If he goes slow he will be fine. But one caution- using cruise control rather than letting the rig slow down going up hills adds additional stress. The engine has to work hard to keep the rig moving at its set speed with cruise control. Letting the rig slow naturally by 10 mph or so puts much less stress on the engine.

I will try to post something on the frontal area thread about going up hills- fast and slow.

David

When in the smaller hills, the transmission has a "Grade Assist" mode that holds it in slightly lower gears for longer, both uphill and downhill.

On the truly humongous (for the Eastern US*) grades, there are paddle shifters on the steering wheel to lock in whatever gear feels right.

As far as the hitch, CanAM RV in London, Ontario reinforced ours. Andy, their specialist, was surprised that Ford would even go to 450 lb tongue weight the way the factory hitch is just attached to sheet metal. The reinforcement ties the hitch into the rear suspension, giving the w/d hitch something substantial to work with. Let me dig up the before/after photos.

Here you go:

Before:


[img style="max-width:100%;" src="https://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8608/28685073472_442826aa09_z.jpg"]

After:

[charliem]

I was looking at the F150 on the net.

They sell a version with a 2.7 Ecoboost, that seems to be getting the same MPG as my Sienna!!   
This truck is supposed to be able to pull 7500 pounds, what do you thing about it as a tow vehicle for a 21BHS?
It 2000 pounds over the GVWR of the 21BHS, but still only a 2.7 litter engine. 

Thanks!

[font size="3"]As David alludes to, and has been said by many others, there's no substitute for cubes when towing. I doubt you could tell the difference in MPG in the real world between the 2.7 and 3.5 outside the lab or test track, however you'll definitely tell the difference in performance ahead of the trailer. With the 21BHS on level ground at sea level the 2.7 is probably OK, but the first hill or several thousand feet of elevation will tell the story. BTW, MPG while towing is almost entirely a function of the trailer, not the engine pulling it. There is even some evidence that a small engine is worse, maybe because it's working so hard for its size. Also note that Paul is towing a 13 footer with his 2.7, not a 21. [/font]

[daplumbr]

I'll chime in that I'm in the "No substitute for cubes" camp, but this little nagging voice in my head is becoming more and more insistent that perhaps I'm behind the times and stuck in the thinking of more than a decade ago. In reading popular magazines like Motor Trend and Truck Trend, it looks like current turbos are no longer just for accelerating oomph and are designed to run almost all the time. Engines for all vehicles are downsizing in cubic inches and upsizing in boost. As long as engineering and metallurgy keep up, no foul, no harm. And I'm beginning to shift my thinking that the same applies to towing with the new boosted engines. 

[whoofit]

These questions have been answered time and time again. I chose my 5.0 F150 based on longevity in my daily application as a work truck towing daily with a large payload daily. I felt more confident in 150,000 miles of trouble free driving. This was based on DECADES of data on the V8 Coyote engine.

But, don't think for one second the 2.7l and the 3.5l EB's are incapable of some SERIOUS towing performance. Anything less would be misinformation on some random internet forum.

Some advice, listen to manufacturers that have derived their data through empirical testing. There are standardized SAE tow rating tests these days so apples truly are apples Except the Titan. They have not yet subscribed as far as I know.

If you need more proof I submit the Eisenhower tunnel run. I have run this with the Coyote. I was pleased but the 2.7L  and 3.5L EB's do better. They do better going up but not going down. The number of braking events with the smaller engines is like 3:1 so there is some merit to the larger displacement.

As far as modding these goes, there are tuners for all of them. The 2.7l and 3.5l responds much better to tuning than the 5.0l. However, with apples to apples in mind, a twin turbo is offered for the 5.0l that will generate some 700 BHP if you want to do 100 mph up Ike Hill for some masochistic reason that is beyond my comprehension.

As far as drag racing these (everyone does this, right?), the 2.7 is the 1/4 mile winner. At 75 mph the 5.0 gains and at 100mph the 5.0 overtakes it. The 2.7l tops out like any sane driver would...

If you can stomach the showmanship here is the 2.7l 3.5; and 5.0l towing prowess.

Oh, and these prices on these videos are just plain nutty. I paid $36k for a 2015 F150 new for a V8 Sport XLT 4x4 extended cab model with 3.55 gears, large fuel tank, tow package and E-Locker rear. My business paid for it so depreciation is a write-off as well.

[video src="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iQQGYJCG65E"][/video]

[video src="https://youtu.be/P5CDxmwIa_M"][/video]

[video src="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E6foaq6NUbg"][/video]

[fasteddieb]

Just watched the first video - cool!

One caveat - though I've never owned a turbocharged aircraft, I've flown a lot of them and I'm on forums where there is a lot of discussion about pros and cons of turbocharging - most recently debate about choosing normally aspirated vs. turbocharged models of the Cirrus SR22.

One inescapable fact, at least in aircraft, is that's there's no free lunch. The turbos simply require additional expense, both in routine maintenance and in repair and eventual overhaul costs. Of course, part of this is ameliorated by less time spent in the air on any given trip.

Similarly, in a turbocharged truck or SUV there is simply a little more to go wrong. Of course, this may not ever come into play for any given truck or SUV over a reasonable lifespan - and I personally don't worry about it on our boosted Flex.

[drake]

What year BHS? Asking as the 2017's weigh a bit more than their predecessors.  

I bought a '17 and towed it a couple times with an Avalanche... Did not feel comfortable, especially since we do a lot of mountain trips and decided to upgrade trucks.

[daplumbr]

"As far as drag racing these (everyone does this, right?), the 2.7 is the 1/4 mile winner. At 75 mph the 5.0 gains and at 100mph the 5.0 overtakes it."



In drag racing parlance, the Coyote doesn't have as much jump off the line, but in the last half of the run, it really gets moving.   

[billmoore]

For the drag racing, do they turn off the traction control? I know on my 5.0L, if you stomp the throttle hard with traction control turned on, the traction control cuts your power way down to prevent wheel spin. Really annoying when you need that power pulling out into traffic, but I usually forget to turn it off...