Internal Surge Protector

[djsamuel]

[quote source="/post/7678/thread" author="@surfsup" timestamp="1426081726"]DJ, did you install it behind the breaker panel?[/quote]Yes.  I just disconnected the source from the breaker panel and connected it to the device.  I then simply used another piece of wiring to connect from the device to the breaker panel.  The only difficult thing was space.  There is plenty of room for the protector, but between the closed space and stiff wiring, it can get a little dicey.  Plus, doing it in August in Florida was not the brightest idea, but I wanted to get it in.

[whoofit]

[quote source="/post/7681/thread" author="@charliem" timestamp="1426083673"][font size="3"]I use a a portable TRC Surge Guard. In 2-1/2 years of camping I've never encountered bad CG power. In that same time period I've also not had any auto accidents, vehicle damage, flood damage, or house fires, but I carry insurance for all these risks. The Surge Guard is insurance against power disruptions 24/7 whether I'm in the camper or away on an expedition. At $250-$265 it's good for peace of mind. If you read RV forums and blogs you'll find plenty of tales of destruction and danger from those without. This would include my brother who had major electrical damage to his class A motorhome at at commercial campground. Now, after the fact, he has surge protection.

An auto-transformer was mentioned. Auto-transformers or autoformers are designed to correct a long term problem, usually low voltage. Their response time is very long and they do nothing for instantaneous high/low voltage spikes. The surge protectors detect long and short term problems an protect the camper and its equipment. The two devices address entirely different risks.

Portable vs. Fixed Mount: Really a personal choice; they function identically. The fixed mounted unit must be installed, including the remote panel, and then it's done. The portable requires no installation, but adds a step to setup/teardown. The portable unit can easily be moved to your next trailer, but it can also be "borrowed" if not locked down. One other point I have only seen mentioned once. The surge protector has an internal relay that hums. If fixed mounted in the camper the unit must be shock mounted to prevent this hum from being conducted to the camper frame. I'm sensitive to things that go thump, click, buzz, drip, and ding at night. It'd drive me nuts............
[/font][/quote][p]My post above read like an ad for the Franks. Really I don't know about it never having set my eyes on one even. It was more for input from others like you that may have some knowledge about them.[/p][p]
[/p][p]This device seems to be more than a simple boost transformer. It has the ability to at least shut down the service spikes. I do not think it bucks per se.[/p][p]
[/p][p]The surge protection seem to be there. I don't know if it is a one shot deal like the Progressive is, where parts must be changed after an event.[/p][p]
[/p][p]I see that it offers some ground fault protection. How much and how equivalent to the Progressive? I can't find the info.[/p][p]
[/p][p]I'm not sure how to envision a slow response time as is related to saving an AC unit from a brown out. I believe it takes more than several seconds to kill a compressor though. 30 minutes would be more like it, maybe?[/p][p]
[/p][p]It seems some protection is definitely the way to go. And an enitre motorhome? That could get expensive quickly....
[/p]

[jtelles3993]

[quote source="/post/7678/thread" timestamp="1426081726" author="@surfsup"]DJ, did you install it behind the breaker panel?

Yes.  I just disconnected the source from the breaker panel and connected it to the device.  I then simply used another piece of wiring to connect from the device to the breaker panel.  The only difficult thing was space.  There is plenty of room for the protector, but between the closed space and stiff wiring, it can get a little dicey.  Plus, doing it in August in Florida was not the brightest idea, but I wanted to get it in. [/quote]
Seems simple enough, thanks! I'll try to find the install Pdf online from their website and read up on it..

Oh Yea, how about that hum that Charlie mentioned?

[jtelles3993]

Charlie, thanks for your input, good stuff to consider!

[pinstriper]

[quote source="/post/7668/thread" timestamp="1426075989" author="@whoofit"]How often have you all encountered these line feed issues in your travels?

I look at my trailer and since it only has an $88 AC unit and the microwave that's not real expensive. The investment would probably be more for protection from ground faults especially with the aluminum floor. I would prefer a pure sine wave inverter to go with the GC2's I intend to mount but those can be made robust from spikes.

Pedestal power. Is it frequently found to be an issue from your experience?
[/quote]Only once. Power kept cycling on and off. I went out to the pedestal and could hear arcing. The plug was loose inside the pedestal. Oh, and it was raining.

[whoofit]

[quote timestamp="1426085549" source="/post/7688/thread" author="@pinstriper"]

How often have you all encountered these line feed issues in your travels?

I look at my trailer and since it only has an $88 AC unit and the microwave that's not real expensive. The investment would probably be more for protection from ground faults especially with the aluminum floor. I would prefer a pure sine wave inverter to go with the GC2's I intend to mount but those can be made robust from spikes.

Pedestal power. Is it frequently found to be an issue from your experience?

Only once. Power kept cycling on and off. I went out to the pedestal and could hear arcing. The plug was loose inside the pedestal. Oh, and it was raining.
[/quote]That would be a clincher. Worst possible timing in the middle of the night at 100F. Hit the breakers and break out the ice.

[charliem]

[quote source="/post/7683/thread" timestamp="1426084556" author="@whoofit"]I'm not sure how to envision a slow response time as is related to saving an AC unit from a brown out. I believe it takes more than several seconds to kill a compressor though. 30 minutes would be more like it, maybe?[p]
[/p][p]It seems some protection is definitely the way to go. And an enitre motorhome? That could get expensive quickly....
[/p][/quote][font size="3"]You're right on the AC. Short term dropouts will not hurt it if the AC has a time delayed restart. Some do, some don't. The surge protector, which ever one, should have a delayed reset[/font]. [font size="3"]TRC unit and others delay approx 2 min before reset. The short term overvoltage events like spikes go after the electronics found increasingly in our appliances. The TV if AC operated, the fridge, the converter, the micro, and possibly other things like pad/pod/phone chargers. 12 volt devices are mostly protected by the battery.
[/font]

[whoofit]

[p]Well after more research it appears the Franks product really isn't all that I had envisioned.

It may detect certain ground faults but does nothing to protect me from them.
It offers only rudimentary surge supperssion.
It bucks nothing except the scale and the wallet.
It is little more than a boost transformer with some basic intelligience.

Time for protection first and maybe a boost in the future.[/p][p]
[/p][p]Thanks for the guidance folks.
[/p]

[djsamuel]

[quote source="/post/7686/thread" timestamp="1426085410" author="@surfsup"][quote source="/post/7682/thread" timestamp="1426084457" author="@djsamuel"]Yes.  I just disconnected the source from the breaker panel and connected it to the device.  I then simply used another piece of wiring to connect from the device to the breaker panel.  The only difficult thing was space.  There is plenty of room for the protector, but between the closed space and stiff wiring, it can get a little dicey.  Plus, doing it in August in Florida was not the brightest idea, but I wanted to get it in. [/quote]Seems simple enough, thanks! I'll try to find the install Pdf online from their website and read up on it..

Oh Yea, how about that hum that Charlie mentioned?[/quote]I don't get a hum.  I have it mounted to the floor near the outside wall.  If I get down on the floor and listen, I can hear a faint hum, but that is all.

[david]

[quote source="/post/7677/thread" timestamp="1426081606" author="@surfsup"]FYI, reading through the Amazon reviews of the portable unit (pt30c), damage caused by faulty power source is inevitable in the RV world..[/quote][p]I am a little puzzled by this statement and all of the CL owners jumping on the bandwagon and installing power protection in their RVs.[/p][p]
[/p][p]I come from 20 years spent in the cruising boating world. If ever there is opportunity for lousy power distribution, a marina is it. Crappy falling apart docks; wiring, junction boxes and receptacles that have been under water; etc all make for power problems.[/p][p]
[/p][p]But I have never heard of any boat experiencing damage from lousy power at a marina. Maybe boat A/C systems (the most likely to be damaged from low voltage supply) have built in protection and RV roof top units do not. It can't be the sensitive electronics because all of those are on 12V DC just like you would expect them to be on an RV.[/p][p]
[/p][p]So what makes RV power supply so unreliable and dangerous? Or is it?[/p][p]
[/p][p]And FWIW we have camped at RV sites with power hookups exactly twice in my life out of maybe 200 overnights. So it isn't a problem for me in any case.[/p][p]
[/p][p]David
[/p]

[jtelles3993]

David, great question, found this on a quick search...

The Coast Guard issued a non-mandatory safety alert on the eve of another boating season in the northern United States about the use of surge protectors aboard a boat.

"Most commercially available surge protective devices are designed for use ashore and will interrupt only the hot conductor when a surge occurs. What does that mean for the ship owner/operator? It means that while these devices may provide protection in our homes and offices, these same devices may be a fire risk on board vessels," the safety alert, which was issued Monday, said.

The alert then details a marine casualty investigation of two separate stateroom fires aboard a U.S.-flagged container ship that attributed the fires to the use of surge protective devices plugged into a lighting circuit.

The Coast Guard recommends that vessel owners, operators, class society surveyors, insurers and other inspection personnel examine the risks associated with the use of surge protective devices aboard vessels and, if necessary, ensure that their organizations have policies and procedures related to their use

[whoofit]

[p]
The least of my worries is the AC, David. If mine fails I can run out to Lowes and buy another for less than $100. I'm more concerned with electrocution. The TT does already have GFCI's so it's probably paranoia. I fear there would be issues with the GFCI's working properly if a ground fault at the box existed.[/p][p]
[/p][p]But then again what do I Noah?[/p]

[david]

[p]Thanks Surfsup. I will address your point at the bottom of this post. And for Whoofit, what does ground fault protection have to do with the Progressive Industries device? I think you are confusing the two problems.[/p][p]
[/p][p]But first I have done some more thinking. It seems that the Progressive Industries device does two things:

1. It interrupts high surge current, presumably due to lightning strikes?

2. It drops out on low or high voltage.

For marinas, low voltage is the problem facing many boaters. I have a live aboard friend on one of those crappy docks mentioned in my post above and when he draws 15 amps from a 20 amp service the voltage drops 10V. But another 20 amp circuit (he is on two) doesn't drop at all. So he keeps his reverse cycle A/C on the one with no voltage drop and uses the bad one for mostly resistive loads.

But will it damage his A/C if he uses the bad circuit? I don't know. I do know that low voltage causes most motors to draw more current and heat up. If he has a 20 amp breaker protecting his A/C (it is a 16 amp running load) won't it trip before the motor is affected?

If the low voltage prevents the motor from starting won't the circuit breaker also trip?

And finally ABYC (the boating standards organization) requires that the main breaker protecting the incoming power disconnect both the load and neutral (double pole breaker). The surge protector mentioned in your post above should also do this to be safe.

Does the Progressive Industries device trip both?

David[/p]

[whoofit]

Yes I edited my post above to include that if there was a ground fault at the box I suspect the operation of the GFCI outlets in the trailer. The progressive seems to detect the issues at the box. Maybe paranoia again.

[djsamuel]

The progressive system has a contactor that drops out both legs in the event of an issue.  That is basically what you wire to when installing the system.  When you apply power to the camper, there is a slight delay, then you hear the contactor pull in.  At that point, power is supplied to the camper.

I've heard of several cases of miswired power boxes at campsites.  In addition, the electronics in my 21BHS are not 12V, at least from a camper power supply aspect.  The TV is plugged into 110V, although it does have a power supply.  In addition, the microwave is 110V.  The converter itself could be at risk if hit by a surge.

All of that said, I think the risk of a bad power source is very small.  My biggest reason for getting the protector is surge, and while I was at it, I figured I'd get the progressive Industries system with the readout so I could easily see how much power I was drawing, etc.  Down here in Florida, lightning strikes are not uncommon.  Last summer, a lightning strike at Disney's Fort Wilderness took out about 6 or 7 campers worth of electronics.  One had a surge protector, and while the protector was fried, the camper was fine.  Again, mainly insurance, but not that expensive but worth it if something happens, especially if I am a couple of thousand miles from home.

Doug