Azdel replacement

[sarz272000]

Dan Miller,

Thank you for your input on this thread.  It is refreshing to see LL responding.  I am looking at a used  2013 13QBB. Will the factory replace the kitchen counter/sink with the new design? I really like what you did in the new design!

Any chance to bring back the QBB? It's the only LL with an interior queen bed towable with Ford Escape.

Have a great day,

Ron

[djmiller]

Dan Miller,

Thank you for your input on this thread.  It is refreshing to see LL responding.  I am looking at a used  2013 13QBB. Will the factory replace the kitchen counter/sink with the new design? I really like what you did in the new design!

Any chance to bring back the QBB? It's the only LL with an interior queen bed towable with Ford Escape.

Have a great day,

Ron

The design of the 13QBB sink cabinet is no longer used.  I am assuming you are talking about the solid surface counter-tops.
None of our existing counter tops would fit. However..... someone on the forum here may have an idea.

According to the 2015 towing guide we have on line here http://www.livinlite.com/pdf/towingguides/2015towingguide.pdf the 1.6L engine can only tow 2,000lbs but the 2.0L can handle 3,500.
The 14DB and 14DBS would seem to work fine for the 2.0 engine.

[charliem]

[font size="3"]With all due respect to the LL factory, a CL14DB/DBS is way too much for an Escape. Even though Ford rates the Escape at 3500# the dry weight of the 14DBS is very close to the curb weight of the Escape. Even with the turbos that Ford is betting their future on, that's a lot to ask of a 4 Cyl 2.0L engine. Most car hitch ratings seem to rate tongue weight ~10% of tow weight. However, the Escape comes with a 1-1/4" Class II hitch rated at 3500# and 300# TW. The dry tongue weight of the 14s is 375-400# without filled propane tanks, battery(s), water, and stuff. RPOD owners have generally concluded that, although 3500# is usable, a 5000# tow rating is much preferred and PODs are lot lighter than the CL 14s. If the Escape is locked in I'd suggest sticking with the 13QBB or looking at RPODs or the smaller Lance units.

On the sink, you should be able to get a custom cut counter top from Lowes or Home Depot. There are several SS sinks available that will fit and the stove top is just a rectangular hole. It's not hard if you're at all handy or have a competent shop nearby.
[/font]

[djmiller]

[quote timestamp="1461957849" source="/post/20887/thread" author="@charliem"][font size="3"]With all due respect to the LL factory, a CL14DB/DBS is way too much for an Escape. Even though Ford rates the Escape at 3500# the dry weight of the 14DBS is very close to the curb weight of the Escape. Even with the turbos that Ford is betting their future on, that's a lot to ask of a 4 Cyl 2.0L engine. Most car hitch ratings seem to rate tongue weight ~10% of tow weight. However, the Escape comes with a 1-1/4" Class II hitch rated at 3500# and 300# TW. The dry tongue weight of the 14s is 375-400# without filled propane tanks, battery(s), water, and stuff. RPOD owners have generally concluded that, although 3500# is usable, a 5000# tow rating is much preferred and PODs are lot lighter than the CL 14s. If the Escape is locked in I'd suggest sticking with the 13QBB or looking at RPODs or the smaller Lance units.

On the sink, you should be able to get a custom cut counter top from Lowes or Home Depot. There are several SS sinks available that will fit and the stove top is just a rectangular hole. It's not hard if you're at all handy or have a competent shop nearby.
[/font]
I agree with you charlie, probably pushing it with the escape, as the Dry Weight is 3,121 lbs.  The tongue weight could be adjusted when being towed by loading the trailer. They Gray and Black tanks are behind the axle but the fresh is in front and would add to the tongue weight if filled while being towed.   I have an Escape 2.0 but it did not come with a Hitch.

The 14 models were to replace the 13's. The floor plan was almost identical to the 13QBB.  We actually had an extremely light tongue weight on the 13QBB because of the Floor plan, most of the weight was behind the axle and when we added a 7CF refer in the rear behind the axle that created an extremely light tongue weight.

The older 13QBB's  (some 2014 and earlier) only had a 5cf refer, under the sink.  It also had a rear wetbath rather than dry, smaller holding and fresh water tanks, 13" tires, the A/C and 2nd LP tanks were optional and did not have solid surface counter tops.  All of which yielded a lower tongue weight.

Correct on the sink however the cut out for the stove to IS NOT just a rectangular hole, it has radius corners  There is not much room for error due to the fastening mechanism Dometic uses to secure it.  Should not be a big deal though, I would suggest removing the top and duplicating the opening.  I have attached the cook-top opening print. [attachment id="1368"]

Best Regards,
Dan
[/quote]

[charliem]

[font size="3"]Dan,

Thanks for the reply and info. I agree the layout changes to the 14s are in the right direction, particularly the dry bath and larger tanks. My reading of your web site still shows a 5cf fridge, but maybe it's not been updated. That said, apparently there is still a market for very light campers like the 13QBB for small TVs. However there are other companies in that market space, albeit without the "no rust no rot" claim, but you can't cover them all.

I didn't realize the cooktop cutout was that complex, but your drawing contains enough info to duplicate it with protractor and ruler. I tried it with a CAD tool and it worked perfectly. And, as you suggest, the old cutout or a full sized cardboard template would also work. This is also the first time I've ever seen an actual LL drawing. I knew you had to have them, and lots of fixturing, but I was beginning to wonder.  

Again, thanks for your participation in the forum and your link to the factory. [/font]

[mitch]

[quote timestamp="1461957849" source="/post/20887/thread" author="@charliem"][font size="3"]With all due respect to the LL factory, a CL14DB/DBS is way too much for an Escape. Even though Ford rates the Escape at 3500# the dry weight of the 14DBS is very close to the curb weight of the Escape. Even with the turbos that Ford is betting their future on, that's a lot to ask of a 4 Cyl 2.0L engine. Most car hitch ratings seem to rate tongue weight ~10% of tow weight. However, the Escape comes with a 1-1/4" Class II hitch rated at 3500# and 300# TW. The dry tongue weight of the 14s is 375-400# without filled propane tanks, battery(s), water, and stuff. RPOD owners have generally concluded that, although 3500# is usable, a 5000# tow rating is much preferred and PODs are lot lighter than the CL 14s. If the Escape is locked in I'd suggest sticking with the 13QBB or looking at RPODs or the smaller Lance units.

On the sink, you should be able to get a custom cut counter top from Lowes or Home Depot. There are several SS sinks available that will fit and the stove top is just a rectangular hole. It's not hard if you're at all handy or have a competent shop nearby.
[/font]
I agree with you charlie, probably pushing it with the escape, as the Dry Weight is 3,121 lbs.  The tongue weight could be adjusted when being towed by loading the trailer. They Gray and Black tanks are behind the axle but the fresh is in front and would add to the tongue weight if filled while being towed.   I have an Escape 2.0 but it did not come with a Hitch.

The 14 models were to replace the 13's. The floor plan was almost identical to the 13QBB.  We actually had an extremely light tongue weight on the 13QBB because of the Floor plan, most of the weight was behind the axle and when we added a 7CF refer in the rear behind the axle that created an extremely light tongue weight.

The older 13QBB's  (some 2014 and earlier) only had a 5cf refer, under the sink.  It also had a rear wetbath rather than dry, smaller holding and fresh water tanks, 13" tires, the A/C and 2nd LP tanks were optional and did not have solid surface counter tops.  All of which yielded a lower tongue weight.

Correct on the sink however the cut out for the stove to IS NOT just a rectangular hole, it has radius corners  There is not much room for error due to the fastening mechanism Dometic uses to secure it.  Should not be a big deal though, I would suggest removing the top and duplicating the opening.  I have attached the cook-top opening print.

Best Regards,
Dan

[/quote]Interesting comment about the tongue weight on the older 13QBB.  I have a 2103 and it's my first camper.  When I towed it with even loading and nothing in any of the tanks it always seems a little squirrely to me but I had no frame of reference.  One trip for some reason I started out with 5 gallons in the fresh water tank and it was a completely different animal.  Much more stable.  I'd recommend that any of the QBB owners pay very close attention to the tongue weight. 

[djmiller]

[font size="3"]Dan,

Thanks for the reply and info. I agree the layout changes to the 14s are in the right direction, particularly the dry bath and larger tanks. My reading of your web site still shows a 5cf fridge, but maybe it's not been updated. That said, apparently there is still a market for very light campers like the 13QBB for small TVs. However there are other companies in that market space, albeit without the "no rust no rot" claim, but you can't cover them all.

I didn't realize the cooktop cutout was that complex, but your drawing contains enough info to duplicate it with protractor and ruler. I tried it with a CAD tool and it worked perfectly. And, as you suggest, the old cutout or a full sized cardboard template would also work. This is also the first time I've ever seen an actual LL drawing. I knew you had to have them, and lots of fixturing, but I was beginning to wonder.    

Again, thanks for your participation in the forum and your link to the factory. [/font]

My mistake. We went from a 3 cf to a 5 cf.  The website is correct.  I am also the website guy so it is my 2nd Bible so to speak.
The cut out is actually done on a CNC cutter but of course is does not have to be.  There is not a whole lot of room for error.

[gnies]

[font size="3"] However, the Escape comes with a 1-1/4" Class II hitch rated at 3500# and 300# TW.
[/font]

That's not true the 2013 and up comes with a 2" hitch. I have a 2014 with a 2" hitch but I think they still consider it as a Class II and the rest of you comment still apply   just wanted to correct that info

[charliem]

[quote source="/post/21189/thread" author="@paul" timestamp="1463406647"][quote source="/post/20887/thread" author="@charliem" timestamp="1461957849"][font size="3"] However, the Escape comes with a 1-1/4" Class II hitch rated at 3500# and 300# TW.
[/font][/quote]That's not true the 2013 and up comes with a 2" hitch. I have a 2014 with a 2" hitch but I think they still consider it as a Class II and the rest of you comment still apply     just wanted to correct that info
[/quote][font size="3"]Interesting conflicting info. The Ford sites list the towing package with Class II hitch and 3500# towing capacity for the 2.0L turbo engine Escape models. All hitch sites describe Class II hitches as 1.25", none at 2.0". According to them the first 2.0" receiver is for Class III. Go figure. I wonder if there's a difference between Canadian and US models.[/font]

[gnies]

[quote timestamp="1463409433" author="@charliem" source="/post/21190/thread"]

That's not true the 2013 and up comes with a 2" hitch. I have a 2014 with a 2" hitch but I think they still consider it as a Class II and the rest of you comment still apply      just wanted to correct that info

[font size="3"]Interesting conflicting info. The Ford sites list the towing package with Class II hitch and 3500# towing capacity for the 2.0L turbo engine Escape models. All hitch sites describe Class II hitches as 1.25", none at 2.0". According to them the first 2.0" receiver is for Class III. Go figure. I wonder if there's a difference between Canadian and US models.[/font]
[/quote]Yes or maybe this is unique to the Escape to have a Class II  2" receiver? Or maybe they put a Class III receiver but they name it Class II because of the weight limit of 3500#

[whoofit]

There is no difference between US and CA models. Also, the TW is 350# not 300# if it matters. https://www.ford.com/resources/ford/general/pdf/towingguides/16rvtt_ford_escape_sep28.pdf