Candid discusion of the board's cost and limitations

[david]

[p]Sean's recent post about running out of space for pictures did not have a quick comment box at the bottom. Here is a link to that thread- [a href="http://livinlite.proboards.com/thread/1125/pictures-attachments"]http://livinlite.proboards.com/thread/1125/pictures-attachments[/a]. Maybe the subforum that he posted under doesn't allow comments, although he did ask for them. So I have started this thread to discuss the quality of the forum, its costs and what to do about it. If your original thread can be made to accept comments, please merge this post with that forum Sean.[/p][p]
[/p][p]First a few words site's performance- nothing about content. It is a unique BBS, the only one that I monitor that uses this SW. It is also the slowest that I monitor.[/p][p]
[/p][p]Next about content. This is a really great resource for LL owners. I liken it to an Island Packet boating forum that I belong to. IPs are cult boats just like LLs and everyone on both forums speaks almost passionately about their boat/camper. Also there is essentially no acrimony as is sometimes found on more general sites.[/p][p]
[/p][p]The point of the foregoing is- we need to keep it going somehow.[/p][p]
[/p][p]Sean's suggestion to use Flickr, etc is awful. I don't want to have to first upload a picture to another site, copy the URL and paste it into my LL post. I want to upload directly to this site. Frankly I will stop posting pictures if we can't figure another way.[/p][p]
[/p][p]Is the problem perhaps file size? Many BBS forums limit the size of the file that you can upload to less than 100K which is perfectly adequate for almost everything. With a  fast internet connection and cameras that create big files, I can easily see people uploading 5 Mb files.[/p][p]
[/p][p]Finally costs. I am amazed that with membership over 500 and soon to hit 1,000 that two banner ads top and bottom can't support this forum with reasonable picture attachments. Other BBSs that I belong to use the vBulletin SW, have a banner ad at the top of each page, have a membership count of about 1,000 and run faster. These seem to survive ok and have an extensive picture uploading capability, but they do limit file size.[/p][p]
[/p][p]Another forum, the Island Packet forum, is run by a passionate IP owner and SW geek. He uses an antiquated BBS system that he has patched and patched but it works very well. He covers the hosting himself. I don't know what it costs. I am not volunteering to do this myself as I haven't a clue how to do it.[/p][p]
[/p][p]So those are my thoughts. Perhaps Sean could comment about speed, file size limits and cost. Others chime in with your thoughts.[/p][p]
[/p][p]David[/p][p]
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[funpilot]

[p]As many of you are aware, I ended up purchasing a camper that was not a LL, but made a number of friends here so I continue to post from time to time.  The forum I use for my Trailmanor ([a href="http://www.trailmanorowners.com"]www.trailmanorowners.com[/a]) charges those of us who want to read all about how to maintain and mod our trailers $12.00 per year.  They have it professionally hosted, we can post as many pictures as we want, and they use  vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 as their software platform.  To do this, they structured the content so that it easily allows people to use the free areas and "hides" the pay areas for those that have not subscribed.  New members are allowed 30 days to have full access so they can see the value of the restricted areas.  [/p][p]
[/p][p]I am not suggesting that you want to copy what they did, but just noting that it works.  We have some very talented electricians, solar experts, battery experts, along with a number of just comfortable trailer owners that all contribute and no one questions the value of the areas that require a subscription.   Just some info on what one other forum has been doing for at least 15 years.[/p][p]
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[subaruwx]

This forum was started because the old Yahoo forum was/is horrible.  pro boards is a huge improvement, and it's free except for the time Sean and admins put in to managing it.  So many folks use Flikr, Google, photobug, etc that I think it's reasonable to use that to link pictures.  I don't mind ads, but I think charging users is a mistake. Hard core folks won't hesitate to pay a few bucks a year, but it will discourage new owners and potential new owners.  My $0.02.

[ammobob]

Without getting into all hosting solutions I think $12 a year is a small price to pay for the information one gains from the wealth of knowledge on this forum. I owned a 16 DB for 2 years and had no clue of some of the issues I faced that were already addressed in this forum. I have a 21BHS on order this forum has given me so much insite into what to expect or look for when I go to pick it up it's worth more then $12. Suggested mods are worth more than that in itself. I am in and let's keep it going.

[spot1]

$12 per year is OK by me, too

[pinstriper]

1. David's comment about performance - are you sure it isn't the ads themselves that are slowing the page loads ? A lot of crappy scripting out there slowing down the interwebs something fierce.

2. I think the ad revenue doesn't go to Sean or anyone but Proboards. Maybe there's another tier where the ad revenue goes to support the board ? Maybe we don't have enough members or pageviews ? Sean, what can you share about this ?

3. I use a number of other forums that have similar photo restrictions with much more activity and many more members. I agree it sucks, but it's not an egregious fault, endemic to this forum. Quite common, actually. Did I say that I agree that it sucks ? So far I have proven too lazy to go through the extra hoops, not to mention I need another account on another web service like I need another pair of ears. My solution is to just not post pictures, and it's been working out great for me, so far.

4. I don't think the LL community is large enough or geeky enough to feel compelled to paying membership, and charging will only stifle membership growth, in my view.

5. The thought occurs to hit LL up for the costs, or at least a share. They get a lot of stroke from this forum, I think. Maybe. I dunno. We can just tell them they do, and they write the check. Worth a shot, IMO.

6. The current ad showing for me is Jimmy Dean brand sausages. A quality, American product. I for one will do my part to support them. Jimmy Dean. Sausage. 'merica.

7. I lost my train of thought and forget what I was going to say, but I do recall it was pretty insightful and impressive in its insights.

8. If I'm going to be asked to pay, people are going to have to start making better quality posts. Step it up people ! The folks I'm talking about know who they are.

[leslie]

I don't mind paying a dollar a month for this board, but someone who is at the point where they are just surfing for information probably would not pay. I think Livin Lite should be approached.

I am not on many other boards - the Good Sam board, irv2 at the present. Are there other alternative boards where we could move?

[dh50]

[quote source="/post/11250/thread" author="@pinstriper" timestamp="1432348999"]

7. I lost my train of thought and forget what I was going to say, but I do recall it was pretty insightful and impressive in its insights.

[font color="#c22e11"]8. If I'm going to be asked to pay, people are going to have to start making better quality posts. Step it up people ! The folks I'm talking about know who they are.[/font]
[/quote]

[font size="4" color="#0b0b0c" face="comic sans ms"]Are you talking about my posts, PinStriper?  You are, aren't you?  Darn, I knew it!  (zzz)

Well, if we're asked to pay $12, does this mean we also get you as arbiter of 'quality posts'?  Now that's a deal![/font]

[subaruwx]

Some days, I come to this forum just to read pinstriper.

[funpilot]

[p]Guess my post created some interesting follow-up postings.  I remind everyone that I noted that all new members to the Trailmanor forum have FULL access to all areas for a period of time.  Only after that time period, and if they choose to, do they pay the yearly fee (which does not have to be $12.00 if you do not want that amount).  Nothing stops someone from signing back up on a forum with a new user name to get the full free access if that is what they want to do.  In your case, you may want a two or three month free period, that is up to you if you want to charge anything at all.  General chat about camping, Trailmanor models, Prospective Owners questions, and other general discussion topics are in the free section that requires no subscription to be paid. [/p][p]
[/p][p]I do caution you about one thing.  If LivinLite becomes the underwriter of this forum, its independence may be questioned by those that become interested in LL products in the future.  Just the nature of the beast. [/p][p]
[/p][p]FYI:  Here is what new members are told about becoming a sponsor on the Trailmanor forums.  The post has not been updated since Sept 2002 so it seems to have worked well for them:[/p][p]
[/p][p]Welcome to the TrailManor Owner's page.

Our site has moved to a Sponsorship system to help cover the costs of hosting. Here is how it works:
You don't have to register at all. You can browse our guest areas for free. You won't be able to post.
If you register as a new user (it's free), you will have complete access to the board, the same access as a Site Sponsor, for 30 days.
At the end of the 30 days, if you haven't become a Site Sponsor, you will be dropped to Registered Guest status. You will have access to all guest areas, and will be able to post in those areas as well. But you will lose access to the Sponsor areas.
If you choose to become a Site Sponsor, you have access to all areas of the board for a full year. The cost to become a site sponsor is $12 payable by Check or via PayPal

[/p]

[subaruwx]

[quote source="/post/11250/thread" timestamp="1432348999" author="@pinstriper"]
5. The thought occurs to hit LL up for the costs, or at least a share. They get a lot of stroke from this forum, I think. Maybe. I dunno. We can just tell them they do, and they write the check. Worth a shot, IMO.


[/quote]
As I remember it, Scott Tuttle offered early in establishing this forum for LL to cover costs. Sean would remember better than I do, but I think we wanted it to be completely independent. We all worship at the altar of LL, but it's still good to be independent.  I have mixed thoughts, however.  I would rather keep it free for anyone to join and have LL cover any costs than to try and cover costs ourselves and deter (even a little) any member growth. 

[peislander]

From time-to-time I have recommended >> [a href="http://postimage.org/"]Postimage.org[/a] << as a free & easy way to post images to the board. I just visited there and see they offer a solution for forums like this.

Their image upload can be embedded in proboard forums ---- users would not need any other services & not need to visit another site when they want to upload. Users do not need to register (so no possibility of spam) or log-in. They do the resizings needed so users can upload multi-mb images if they want without any need to previously downsample. In a posting a user could add as many images as they want. Postimage.org would host the images for free and they don't purge images for inactivity. There servers seem quite fast. They also don't claim copyrights on images -- they are simply hosts. As hosts of the image files the bandwidth required for the forum drops significantly.

Here is the page Sean would go to to add the file-hosting service to this proboard.

>> [a href="http://postimage.org/mod.php"]http://postimage.org/mod.php[/a] <<

[charliem]

[quote source="/post/11272/thread" timestamp="1432390512" author="@peislander"]From time-to-time I have recommended >> [a href="http://postimage.org/"]Postimage.org[/a] << as a free & easy way to post images to the board. I just visited there and see they offer a solution for forums like this.

Their image upload can be embedded in proboard forums ---- users would not need any other services & not need to visit another site when they want to upload. Users do not need to register (so no possibility of spam) or log-in. They do the resizings needed so users can upload multi-mb images if they want without any need to previously downsample. In a posting a user could add as many images as they want. Postimage.org would host the images for free and they don't purge images for inactivity. There servers seem quite fast. They also don't claim copyrights on images -- they are simply hosts. As hosts of the image files the bandwidth required for the forum drops significantly.

Here is the page Sean would go to to add the file-hosting service to this proboard.

>> [a href="http://postimage.org/mod.php"]http://postimage.org/mod.php[/a] <<[/quote]PEI,

I went to the Postimage web page via your link and probed around a lot. This seems to be an excellent solution to our problem. They already list Proboards as a SW option so they must already be in use by existing Proboard forums. I walked through their user instructions and it does appear the setup is a one time effort by Sean. Each forum user just clicks a button, selects the image in his/her computer, selects desired size, and clicks on upload. Simple. No third party URLs, no Photobucket/Flickr accounts, nothing. If I understand  this correctly the member interface would be very similar to our present attachment interface. So, in the words of our Senator Fred Thompson in a running TV ad. "There's got to be a catch?" How does Postimage make their money?

Thanks for bringing this to our attention. I'll add my recommendation that Sean take a look.

[pinstriper]

[quote timestamp="1432384505" author="@subaruwx" source="/post/11267/thread"]Some days, I come to this forum just to read pinstriper. [/quote][p]That's pitiful. You need to get out more.[/p][p]
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[thudd3r]

i am on a handful of other forums and have always found a tiered membership is acceptable to most people.  to keep new people coming around (nothing more frustrating than having to became a member when you are just our searching for information), generate income, and reduce the load on the resources required for the forum they could do something like this...

level 1 - access to all of the posted information (no membership required)
level 2 - access to all of the posted information and ability to post, pictures must be linked, limited number of saved private messages (free membership required, basically what we all have now)
level 3 - access to all of the posted information, ability to post, ability to upload pictures to the board, additional number of saved private messages (fee-based membership required, lower cost)
level 4 - access to all of the posted information, ability to post, ability to upload pictures to the board, unlimited number of saved private messages, ability to disable ads (fee-based membership required, higher cost)

this way the more capabilities you feel you need from the board is tied to the amount you pay.  new people find it as a free resource and as their membership requirements grow, they can pay to do more.

an example...

joe what-is-an-ll-camper-anyways is considering a shiny new camper and wants to research the ll brand.  he does a web search and finds this forum.  he can read all of the informative (well, mostly informative lol) posts without even creating an account (level 1).  since he doesnt even have to register, we don't scare him off to search for easier-to-access information.  now joe is intrigued by what he sees and wants to ask questions, so he can create a free account (level 2) and ask all the questions he wants.  at this point he is now joe-maybe-wants-to-be-an-ll-owner. with level 2 being free he isnt scared off by having to pay $$ to get answers.  being such a  wonderful community we accept him into the all-aluminum clan and share our wealth of knowledge with him.  he can even post up pics (linked of course) and send some messages to gather more information.  joe likes what he sees/hears/finds (we got him hooked now and he cant take his eyes off the shiny all aluminum goodness...joe is even drooling a bit when ever he sees his reflection in a soda can) and decides to buy an ll camper (and if we scare him off he hasnt invested any money and wont come looking for us).  

so now joe i-am-now-an-ll-owner wants to modify his new toy and share his experiences (he is a full fledged alumin-ite now).  he can continue on with the current membership or is he wants the added features, such as uploading directly to the site, he can up his membership and pay a small fee.  by this time he is invested in the site and brand and would probably be willing to "chip in"

after awhile joe has become the most hardcore ll owner imaginable.  everyone knows him as joe i-am-THE-ll-owner-and-will-lead-you-all-with-my-aluminum-embrace (most of us call him pinstriper   ), and we cant live without his advice.  joe is all but living out of his camper full time, travelling across the world, promoting the goodness that is all aluminum, and brainwashing everyone he meets.  at this point we are all worshiping ll campers and joe is for all intensive purposes our leader.  joe can then up his membership to level 4 to ensure we can all reach him and he can effectively lead us.

my thoughts..nothing else