Internal Surge Protector

[david]

Doug:

On boats lightning strikes are a very common occurrence. They typically will fry all 12V DC electronics on the boat: radar, chartplotter, VHF, and SSB radios. These are worth many thousands. There are no surge protectors on boats that could prevent this, because it can happen when you are at anchor not plugged in. It is the induced current surge in the wiring that does the job.

So if the risk is higher on boats, and boats can't be protected with surge devices, what good are they on RV's.

I hear you about the case in Ft Wilderness. But it seems that lighting isn't going to harm an RV that is plugged into a decently wired and grounded campsite power supply. What is the difference between a camper plugged into an outlet 10' away and the outlets in my bedroom at home which is 50' away from the panel and the actual incoming ground. They are both hooked together with wire. The only difference is that the 10' of exposed cord might be susceptible to lightning surges.

I wonder if in the Ft Wilderness case just the surge protector failed (due to induced current) and nothing would have happened if there was no protector? And maybe the other 6-7 had damage due to internal current surge that would have taken out their electronics whether they had a surge protector or not or had not even been plugged in.

I know I am starting to be argumentative and I apologize. But I find the need for power protection on RVs puzzling in the complete absence of such protection on boats.

David

[djsamuel]

Hi David,

Great point about the boats.  I never knew electronics damage was a common occurrence on boats.  I can only assume that since the electrical system on a boat is so much different from an RV (or a house), it cannot be protected.  However, an RV is essentially like a house, and both are susceptible to surge damage.  Any equipment in a home, as well as an RV can be damaged by the surge that travels through the power lines.  I've lost equipment in my home that wasn't protected by a surge protector, yet have had some saved that were protected.  I've literally heard electronics pop in my home when lightning strikes nearby.  That only happened once thankfully.

You could never by a surge protector for your RV and very likely never have an issue.  However, I've heard enough from others who have experienced damage that it gives me peace of mind.  That alone is worth it for me.  

I do fail to understand why you feel that an RV, plugged into a 110V outlet, can't sustain damage from a surge, especially due to a lightning strike, just as a house can.  Maybe I am missing something.  Won't be the first time!

[jtelles3993]

You're a critical thinker, not argumentative.

No electrician here, but seems to me that a boat sitting in the water struck by lightening and an RV, house, etc. receiving a lightening induced power surge, indirectly via the connected power source, are two different scenarios - the latter having a high probability of being protected by a good quality surge protector?

*** all bets are off if the RV takes a direct hit ***

[david]

OK if you use surge protectors for electronics in your home and you think that is worthwhile then I guess it is ok in your RV which I do admit is just as likely as your house to be affected by surge. AFAIK I have never experienced surge damage in my home, and I lived in the Gulf Coast most of my life.

My entire reasoning for starting this line of questioning is that people are installing them who don't use surge protectors in their home and somehow think that an RV is more vulnerable. I don't think so.

FWIW the AC and DC systems in boats are almost identical to RVs. An RV plugged in to a campground's AC supply should be virtually identical to a boat plugged in to a marina. And an RV boondocking with no power connection is very similar to a boat at anchor. The main difference is that the boat is attached to a very good ground- the water it floats in and is therefore more susceptible to lightning strikes. The RV is at least insulated by its tires and maybe wooden pads for the jacks.

So how about undervoltage and overvoltage protection. Can't that be accomplished by the circuit breaker?  To answer my own question, I suspect it can be for the A/C or microwave whose load current is close to the breaker rating and will trip on low voltage caused overcurrent. Maybe not with the converter which should be drawing a fraction of an amp while on float but it is supplied by a 15A circuit.

One very good benefit for the Progressive device with the remote panel is the voltage meter. That alone might make it worthwhile. When I plug in to a marina I always check the AC voltage when the A/C is running. If low maybe the cord isn't seated properly or maybe the marina has undersized wiring.

David

[djsamuel]

[quote source="/post/7707/thread" timestamp="1426102107" author="@david"]OK if you use surge protectors for electronics in your home and you think that is worthwhile then I guess it is ok in your RV which I do admit is just as likely as your house to be affected by surge. AFAIK I have never experienced surge damage in my home, and I lived in the Gulf Coast most of my life.

My entire reasoning for starting this line of questioning is that people are installing them who don't use surge protectors in their home and somehow think that an RV is more vulnerable. I don't think so.

FWIW the AC and DC systems in boats are almost identical to RVs. An RV plugged in to a campground's AC supply should be virtually identical to a boat plugged in to a marina. And an RV boondocking with no power connection is very similar to a boat at anchor. The main difference is that the boat is attached to a very good ground- the water it floats in and is therefore more susceptible to lightning strikes. The RV is at least insulated by its tires and maybe wooden pads for the jacks.

So how about undervoltage and overvoltage protection. Can't that be accomplished by the circuit breaker?  To answer my own question, I suspect it can be for the A/C or microwave whose load current is close to the breaker rating and will trip on low voltage caused overcurrent. Maybe not with the converter which should be drawing a fraction of an amp while on float but it is supplied by a 15A circuit.

One very good benefit for the Progressive device with the remote panel is the voltage meter. That alone might make it worthwhile. When I plug in to a marina I always check the AC voltage when the A/C is running. If low maybe the cord isn't seated properly or maybe the marina has undersized wiring.

David[/quote]
As far as thinking an RV is more vulnerable, I agree with you 100%.  I see nothing that makes an RV more vulnerable than a house.

When I lived in NJ, I never had any damage from lightning.  In Central Florida, I've taken a hit a couple of times and use surge suppressors.  My electric company has the whole house suppressors and am considering those.  

I also agree that an RV that is boon docking is in fact very similar to a boat at anchor.  If I boondocked most of the time, I do not think I would have purchased a suppressor.  However, we are almost always hooked to a power pedestal.  

I question the value of the undervoltage protection as well, but it is a good unit and I do find value in that display.  Perhaps it is the geek in me, but I like to see how much I am drawing, especially with the A/C running and using the microwave.  I also check the frequency and to see if there have been any power "anomalies", whether it affects me or not.

Great discussion, thanks.

[jtelles3993]

Good points for sure. I have all of my electronic gear on surge protection in my home. I usually unplug all of it during heavy lightening and will probably do the same in the RV. I also know the history of any electrical work done on my home, when and by whom.

I guess if you really get down to it, most RV park power pole related incidents - would most likely trace back to piss poor or nonexisting maintenance by the park owners/overseers? Or maybe even caused by the guy who last had your site? So as long as these sort of unknown exists, the surge protection boom is here to stay..

[whoofit]

[p]It appears from the above there is no value to the ground fault sensing portion of this Progressive device. I haven't heard anyone above value it in any meaningful way. It's just there. I thought it was maybe the most important to protect from skin effect at the very least.

Maybe I'll invest in a good tank level monitor instead. Spending $250 to protect an $88 AC unit sounds ridiculous to me with my budget.[/p][p]
[/p][p]
[/p][p]From what I know about lightening strikes all the surge suppression in the world can not save you completely. It's ground wave component can infiltrate anyway. Garage door openers get fried time and time again around here when nothing else in the house gets touched. This supposedly because of the location and environment they are in versus the rest of the house.[/p]

[tinkeringtechie]

[quote source="/post/7712/thread" timestamp="1426104503" author="@whoofit"][p]Maybe I'll invest in a good tank level monitor instead. Spending $250 to protect an $88 AC unit sounds ridiculous.[/p][/quote]Sure, but what about the fridge, converter, (microwave & TV if you have them), anything you have plugged in (laptop, chargers, etc...)? At home I plug all my valuable devices into a surge protector, so why wouldn't I do the same in my trailer?

[whoofit]

[p]Note: I edited my post before you quoted me to reflect my budget and what I had to protect not how I saw the device as a whole.[/p][p]
[/p][p]Is the fridge even an issue? A three way Dometic type that is.

The Tele is on 12V already. That should be good I think.

Is the converter even sensitive to this? Have they changed that much?

I didn't think the laptops and smartphones were either. Are they if they are charged from the 12v circuit?

All honest questions I'd really like to know the answers to.

Thanks![/p]

[whoofit]

And one more thing  about the lightening issue. As a ham I was taught that it mattered not if you were connected to the grid. You unplug your antenna every single electrical storm. This was more important than the power source that is usually 12v anyways. I can see a large metallic structure acting as an antenna and a very good ground plane.

[tinkeringtechie]

[quote source="/post/7715/thread" author="@whoofit" timestamp="1426105881"][p]Note: I edited my post before you quoted me to reflect my budget and what I had to protect not how I saw the device as a whole.[/p][p]
[/p][p]Is the fridge even an issue? A three way Dometic type that is.

The Tele is on 12V already. That should be good I think.

Is the converter even sensitive to this? Have they changed that much?

I didn't think the laptops and smartphones were either. Are they if they are charged from the 12v circuit?

All honest questions I'd really like to know the answers to.

Thanks![/p][/quote]I think anything that's electrically connected is potentially at risk. Only the A/C would be affected by low voltage, but I could see everything else (including the 12V stuff) being affected by high voltage or surges. What does a converter do when it experiences a voltage spike? I don't know, but I don't want to find out the hard way either.

[whoofit]

Thanks Tinker. I understand EMF and other conditions are a crap shoot and odds are odds but nothing is for certain.

If I could be sure this device would reduce the chances of electrocution I'd be all-in. It is more important to me than saving dollars on an insurance deductible or the device itself.

Davids post above seems to imply that I may be confused about its ability to protect us from ground fault problems. Am I confused about this? Am I expecting too much from this device to protect us from things like electrocution and skin effect?

I know enough to get into trouble with stuff like this. I did wire our home though with the blessing of an Electrician.

[charliem]

[font size="3"]Having followed this great discussion I see most of the questions have been addressed by others while I was typing. I type slowly and you guys respond fast. This is great, but I'll still make a few points:

[ol type="decimal"][li][font size="3"]If you dry camp all the time with a good generator, or none at all, you don't need surge protection.[/font][/li][li][font size="3"]If you only connect to your house or another good residential source you can benefit from  surge protection, but
over/under voltage and power interruption protection are not .required.[/font][/li][li][font size="3"]Frequency is generally not a problem unless a motor driven alternator is the source, and today's inverter generators should fix this problem too.[/font][/li][li][font size="3"]If you camp in RV parks or CGs, read on.[/font][/li][li][font size="3"]The RV park environment is highly dynamic as opposed to an established residential setting. RV parks are more susceptible to improper installation, equipment degradation, and poor maintenance. The house, once set up and verified, probably won't change much.[/font][/li][li][font size="3"]The RV  environment can change quickly. Even if all is good and proper when you hook up, there's no guarantee it will stay that way. The surge protector is there 24/7.[/font][/li][li][font size="3"]Protecting an entire house can get expensive and the house is a lower risk environment. $250 is cheap protection for campers (trailers) and campers (people).[/font][/li][li][font size="3"]Low voltage results from poor connection or undersized wiring. There is a fairly wide spread between a motor's running current and its starting current. A breaker for a motor circuit must be sized to pass the high starting current for a short period. As voltage goes low the  motor's running current goes up and the motor generates additional heat. The motor can run at low voltage for a long time without tripping the breaker. The additional heat eventually damages the motor.
[/font][/li][li][font size="3"] A missing ground at the post, which will be detected by the surge protector, can lead to life threatening voltages on the RV skin. This fault will not be noticed in the operation of anything in the RV. Everything is cool until someone gets between the RV and a real ground[/font][/li][li][font size="3"]The same is true of a neutral-hot reversal.[/font][font size="3"]
[/font][/li][li][font size="3"]Lightning spikes a totally dependent on distance to the strike and what's in between. Nothing will protect against a very near or direct hit. There is, however a range over which the surge protector will provide  protection. Impossible to calculate or estimate. [/font][/li][/ol][p]
[/p]
For additional information I refer you to the work done by our member, Mike Sokol, (jmsokol) at [a href="http://www.noshockzone.org/category/rv-safety/"]http://www.noshockzone.org/category/rv-safety/[/a] .

I'll stick with my Surge Guard.[/font]

[whoofit]

[p]Thanks, Charlie.

I'm in.[/p][p]
[/p][p]I do want to thank everyone for their patience with a relative newb like me. I got a couple little nephews and they can be a bit overwhelming at times. I see some of this obnoxious behavior when I re-read my posts. This tends to lead to endless editing.[/p]

[jtelles3993]

Dittos, thanks to all for the good discussion... I've decided to get the portable one.