Disappointed

[pinstriper]

[quote source="/post/17586/thread" timestamp="1452285631" author="@furpod"]Wife and I were just on this subject at lunch. I would hope the results of the poll about the cabinets would get shown to whoever made that decision.. 1 person, ONE, of owners and prospective owners, voted for those new cabinets and doors.  [/quote]What they'll pay attention to is the ones that DIDN'T buy their product, and why.

[jtelles3993]

LLs are unique and appeal to prospective buyers who do not want to buy into future rot and/or rust, both of which are inevitable in steel framed stick and staple trailers. The typical LL buyer is willing to pay for that durability and understand the value in their investment. Quality over quantity, I hope Thor understands that much?!

[alpha6]

[quote source="/post/17600/thread" timestamp="1452359960" author="@pinstriper"][quote source="/post/17586/thread" timestamp="1452285631" author="@furpod"]Wife and I were just on this subject at lunch. I would hope the results of the poll about the cabinets would get shown to whoever made that decision.. 1 person, ONE, of owners and prospective owners, voted for those new cabinets and doors.  [/quote]What they'll pay attention to is the ones that DIDN'T buy their product, and why.

[/quote]In that case I will chime in here.  I was all set to buy a 2016 livin lite truck camper and even went to a dealers lot to see the three they had on their lot.  Two new and one used.  The reason I drove 5 hrs to see the campers is because I couldn't get a good feel for the camper based on the LL web site but I will address that later.  I needed a 4 seasons camper and was excited when LL announced that the new models would be just that with enclosed bottoms, heated tanks, etc.  I have to say that I was shocked at what I saw upon inspection of the 11S.  First, the bottom is completely open covered with a thin layer of corrugated plastic that is just laid in.  The same is true for the back portion which would hang out the back of the truck so this would be beat by the wind continually.  No insulation on the bottom at all and it just looked very cheap to be honest.  Next when we went in, the bed (which lucky for the dealer was covered in plastic) had a pool of water sitting on it...about the size of four dinner plates...so quite a bit from a leak that the salesman couldn't locate.  Then a piece of trim was coming off and you could see where they had run out of nails but kept hitting the trim (you could see the indentations from the head strike).  They never went back to secure it.  Now this was obvious just standing in the galley as it was hanging off.  I decided right then that if the quality control was this poor I wanted nothing to do with the camper.  Interestingly enough, the bottoms of the other two LL campers were covered in aluminum so the tanks were at least not exposed to the elements.  One was a 15 and the other a 14 model.  If LL staff is interested here are some of the things that influenced my decision not to go with LL.  One, and most important the quality control was not there.  From what I had read in the past about LL I was expecting a good quality product.  I was very disappointed.  Next fix your web site.  Get some pictures up of your products.  How hard is it to take a set of pictures of one of your campers and post them on the site.  This includes all sides outside and multiple inside pictures.  This is very basic and again if you can't achieve that what else is lacking in your product.  Lastly, I was set on livin lite based in part on the new GM's interview about making the LL truck camper a true four seasons camper which it is clearly not so my thought is what else have they not be entirely truthful about.  

For those of you who have an older model of LL you probably do have a quality product.  For those buying new...do a good inspection and good luck.  Oh, one more thing.  The doors are not the only wood.  The sides of the cabinets were a thin laminated wood sheeting.  I was lead to believe this would be Azdel. 

[pinstriper]

A6 that is hitting them right between the eyes. Bravo.

Hearing about other people's negative experience and impressions does nothing to diminish the pleasure and confidence I have in my choice - because I have yet to experience the same problems. For me, the biggest beef we have is still the razor sharp corners on the cabinets.

Yeah, there are some things about the layout. Yeah, I think we had some water come up through the aluminum floor planks, or maybe the wheel wells, while trailering in heavy rain. But we've had no roof leaks, no mechanical issues, no appliance failures.

OK, we had an exterior screw pop loose that held the trim on the front where the diamond deck meets the aluminum skin. And aluminum chips galore in the interior. But no plumbing leaks. Really, just the normal things you'd expect to fix in a portable house.

I hope the company views feedback like Alpha6's as something to learn from, rather than dismiss. That would be the healthy, and helpful reaction to unhappy feedback.

[drdave]

[quote timestamp="1452285631" author="@furpod" source="/post/17586/thread"]Wife and I were just on this subject at lunch. I would hope the results of the poll about the cabinets would get shown to whoever made that decision.. 1 person, ONE, of owners and prospective owners, voted for those new cabinets and doors.  [/quote]just so we're clear...the cabinet structure did not change, just the doors.

[jtelles3993]

alpha6, was that camper built in the new facility? I assume it was because 4 season construction was not available (to my knowledge) in the old facility. However, if we had planned to camp in the cold we would've never bought a LL anyway. The all aluminum floor and frame are very cold natured and not a great platform for 4 season camping in my opinion. I hope someone from Thor hears about your experience!

[alpha6]

[quote source="/post/17651/thread" author="@surfsup" timestamp="1452518653"]alpha6, was that camper built in the new facility? I assume it was because 4 season construction was not available (to my knowledge) in the old facility. However, if we had planned to camp in the cold we would've never bought a LL anyway. The all aluminum floor and frame are very cold natured and not a great platform for 4 season camping in my opinion. I hope someone from Thor hears about your experience!
[/quote]It was newly built 2016 model.  Aside from the fact the bottom won't keep out the cold...it won't keep out the critters either.  Storing this in the winter you are going to have all kinds of things looking to make nests in there and there is nothing to keep them out.  I have pics that I would like to post...but since I don't have a third account (flicker) I haven't been able to.  

[charliem]

[quote source="/post/17658/thread" timestamp="1452529311" author="@alpha6"]I have pics that I would like to post...but since I don't have a third account (flicker) I haven't been able to.  [/quote][font size="3"]Thanks to Sean we no longer have to use a third party account. Simply make sure each picture is less than 1 MB and upload as attachments. Limit is five pictures per post. I'd love to see them because I can't imagine LL thinking they could pass what you describe off as 4 season. [/font]

[furpod]

[quote timestamp="1452285631" source="/post/17586/thread" author="@furpod"]Wife and I were just on this subject at lunch. I would hope the results of the poll about the cabinets would get shown to whoever made that decision.. 1 person, ONE, of owners and prospective owners, voted for those new cabinets and doors.  

just so we're clear...the cabinet structure did not change, just the doors.[/quote]Just so we are clear, the construction of the doors, and the aviation style latches were a major selling point for us. I fully understand what can happen to wood in a trailer. I fully understand THIS bit of wood is not a real problem. Easily repaired if damaged in any way.

BUT.. it's a compounding of all the changes being reported since the sale and "no changes" claim by Thor, and the fact that we wanted the old doors and latches. We HAVE had cabinets empty during travel. New owners are literally reporting things like.. "Oh, it only has a single axle now??" The fact is, now, I could order one, and not know until the day it arrived, what it was REALLY configured like. and it would be configured however CL wants it to be, since customization, another reason we wanted a CL, is now also out the window.

[spot1]

Furpod,

Agree about customization!

We started looking at LivinLite Toy Haulers, but last time we contacted LivinLite before Thanksgiving, we were told we could not buy a new Bearcat BC16FK setup without the tip out bunk, replaced with a HappiJac bed. We were told we had to move up to the VRV 7X20 to have the HappiJac option. If we have to move up to a 20' toy hauler, ATC aluminum toy haulers are now on our radar, too. Will see!

[david]

While I share everyone's disappointment at LL's changes, I think that we are close to being seen as whiners by the factory. But I also think that an LL executive should chime in and clearly state what their approach to LL models is- wood or no wood, aluminum interior, one or two axles on the 16TBS, insulated 4 season truck campers, no customization, etc. The list of disappointing changes goes on and on.

Christanm, with all due respect you aren't cutting it. Statements like the single axle being "upgraded" to 4,400 lbs. on the 16TBS from twin 3,500 lb axles are not helpful. You are fast losing credibility.

Unless LL wants to ignore these complaints, Christianm, I think it is time for someone with authority and common sense to comprehensively respond here. Otherwise this topic has become an irrelevant exercise in futility.

David

[mitch]

I tend to agree with you David but I also think it's a bit unfair to put Christian in that light.  I would not assume that she is has answers to some of the things we have issues with.  Beyond that, I look at it this way, Livinlite already has our money, engaging with us on this level of detail has no monetary value for them at all.  Common sense says that leveraging an existing buyers positive experience should be worth something but big business doesn't work on the common sense process.

[charliem]

[quote source="/post/17673/thread" author="@david" timestamp="1452552703"]Christanm, with all due respect you aren't cutting it. Statements like the single axle being "upgraded" to 4,400 lbs. on the 16TBS from twin 3,500 lb axles are not helpful. You are fast losing credibility.

David[/quote][font size="3"]I defense of Christian I believe she meant the single 4400# axle was better than a single 3500# axle would have been, not that the single 4400 was better than dual 3500s.

That said I agree we may be beating a dead horse. LL Thor will do whatever they think best for their profit line regardless of what present owners say.
[/font]

[scbillandjane]

I went to a dealer today. I saw a 14 foot with the new single axle and the 15 inch tires. The same entrance single step is still used, but it is now 4 inches higher or at about the height of the bumper on a full size pickup. My wife at 5' 2" had to use 2 hands on the grab bar to get up the step. Could she enter with groceries? No. We have a small dog that can really jump, but I instantly felt that the height of the step was a real turn off to a short person or a pet owner. I can see someone trying to sell their partner on a camper and hearing that partner say I can't even get in that thing. Let's look at something else. There was a Lance camper near by with an easy 2 step entrance. I really can not understand how anyone would try to sell a camper and make it hard to enter.
 One Livin Lite 2016 camper had the light colored wood(?) cabinet doors. They were what used to be called French Provencal in color with a bleached gray/blue finish. The floors were a very poor light yellow oak pattern plastic. " Gosh that's ugly" popped out of my mouth before I remembered my manners. I admit that I am a wood color lover even when fake wood is used, but again I wonder about the taste of the new owners. If they have to add 2 or 3 hundred pounds of weight in real wood doors with cheap hinges to appeal to a bigger market, why not at least make them look good? I would really recommend that anyone wanting to order the light colored interior take a trip to see one in person first.

I also think the new owners don't yet realize how special Camplite is in the trailer world. It was unique and can still be in the future. Unique sells at high price. Ask Airstream. Unique has dealers wanting that profit margin. Ask Airstream dealers. Ask the vanilla trailer dealers with the same old same old 5 year til death by rot or death by broken truck towing a too heavy trailer dealer if they could sell a 2015 Camplite with a few modifications by this forum? Look at the Honda fit. Wow, a car costing less than 20,000 with a standard sun roof and " magic seats" that let me transport large things that other cars this size can't. There has been a waiting list for this low price car. I  believe that Camplite could deliver a superior product at a reasonable price and have a awaiting list. All it would take is good marketing and engineering that is already there.

[scbillandjane]

I went to a dealer today. I saw a 14 foot with the new single axle and the 15 inch tires. The same entrance single step is still used, but it is now 4 inches higher or at about the height of the bumper on a full size pickup. My wife at 5' 2" had to use 2 hands on the grab bar to get up the step. Could she enter with groceries? No. We have a small dog that can really jump, but I instantly felt that the height of the step was a real turn off to a short person or a pet owner. I can see someone trying to sell their partner on a camper and hearing that partner say I can't even get in that thing. Let's look at something else. There was a Lance camper near by with an easy 2 step entrance. I really can not understand how anyone would try to sell a camper and make it hard to enter.
 One Livin Lite 2016 camper had the light colored wood(?) cabinet doors. They were what used to be called French Provencal in color with a bleached gray/blue finish. The floors were a very poor light yellow oak pattern plastic. " Gosh that's ugly" popped out of my mouth before I remembered my manners. I admit that I am a wood color lover even when fake wood is used, but again I wonder about the taste of the new owners. If they have to add 2 or 3 hundred pounds of weight in real wood doors with cheap hinges to appeal to a bigger market, why not at least make them look good? I would really recommend that anyone wanting to order the light colored interior take a trip to see one in person first.

I also think the new owners don't yet realize how special Camplite is in the trailer world. It was unique and can still be in the future. Unique sells at high price. Ask Airstream. Unique has dealers wanting that profit margin. Ask Airstream dealers. Ask the vanilla trailer dealers with the same old same old 5 year til death by rot or death by broken truck towing a too heavy trailer dealer if they could sell a 2015 Camplite with a few modifications by this forum? Look at the Honda fit. Wow, a car costing less than 20,000 with a standard sun roof and " magic seats" that let me transport large things that other cars this size can't. There has been a waiting list for this low price car. I  believe that Camplite could deliver a superior product at a reasonable price and have a awaiting list. All it would take is good marketing and engineering that is already there.