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Weight Distribution, Sway, and Tongue Weight

Started by kenofchattanooga, April 29, 2014, 08:52:15 AM

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kenofchattanooga

I want to open a thread on this matter. These are observations, more than questions, but please chime in. I think a pleasant ride to and from your destination is golden and paramount.

Sorry for the very very long post, but when all said and done we can refer people back here on this topic. Ill even later shrink it:)

I had to make a quick trip to NC from TN and instead of flying I decided to just tow the 21BHS with F150 there on Friday, and back on Sunday. I've said to myself it's hard to learn everything about the trailer without camping and it's hard to learn all the aspects of Sway, Distribution, and Tongue weight without a "good road trip".

Destination -  Chattanooga TN to Greensboro NC
via 75N and i40E
380 mile one way.

If you know the route, you know its not 100% easy starting 10 miles before border traveling 40 east. You must keep your eye on the road 200% of the time on many spots, a second could make the difference, especially during the 30 mile stretch that includes the border and the descent from Black Mount (2-3% downhill, 6 miles)

1) After 100 miles near Knoxville heading East, I stopped and tweaked the brackets on my 4 point equalizer hitch to help with sway, but I said why not call Livin Lite also just to get their opinion on WDHs and sway bars. I spoke with whoever answered the phone in Service/Parts/Warranty – I think option 3 or 4

His words verbatim,

"Well we really don't get into Weight Distr. hitches or any of that. As you are torqueing the tongue, and as you know steel is stronger than aluminum and that could bend the frame. Those 4 points where they reference includes where the frame could bend."

I continued to say I just felt I should have a better ride, with the lightweight and my pulling power per se.  

However after he told me this I did later undo the adjustment as I feel I was over torqueing to get that ride I had with my previous Resse pro hitch with chains. I was a bit nervous so again I undid these, just being honest.

He did add it was ok to use the hitch for sway, as long as I'm not torqueing the frame. Ok fair enough.

2) I also needed to fill up with gas; I think I was very low from not filling up earlier. I have a 26-gallon tank. So at 6 lbs. per gallon, I added about 22 gallons or 132 lbs.

Voila, I get back on the highway and I am now driving the smoothest truck and trailer thus far from my all my drive test. It's not as perfect as I feel – I still want better sway control, but it was noticeably different in a good way. I undid my bracket changes, so the only variance was 132 lbs of fuel.

3) This then takes me back to a conversation I had with a gentleman at my RV storage lot. I mentioned how I felt I should tow better, He said mentions a tongue weight scale he has and he makes sure he is at the 10-15% of total loaded trailer weight. He said once he got his tongue weight correct he didn't need any equipment for WDH or SWAY. He doesn't own any. He tows a commercial V nose trailer that when loaded is 8K lbs. So he has figure out how to have 800 to 1000lbs upfront.

4) This also takes me back to the 1st time I cleaned out grey and black tanks. Unbeknownst to me they were full from the dealership, I had towed it home 100 miles. And went camping 2 nights not using plumbing.

I don't know how full they were, but they dumped with full force for a good amount of time. Now to do some math, using 8 lbs per gallon,

If black is full, that's 224 lbs
If grey is full, that's 256 lbs

These two alone are 480 lbs

If Fresh water were full, that's another 244 lbs.
I assume my fresh water is empty, I'm not really sure to be honest.

A total of up to 724 lbs could be added, whatever the weight is, it's not on the tongue. I don't think that is good if I didn't factor it in.

The ride was ironically different when I filled the truck with gas, but could that be enough to make a difference in the ride? I mean it was only 120 lbs? Both grey/black tanks were empty leaving out. The ride was much better, I was still on flat driving terrain.

But 3 things are happening now, im moving weight around (fuel) and im learning to counter steer better as tractor-trailers get in my trailers blind spot, the point where I feel the tug inward, and I'm driving in right lane and driving as far right as I can while staying in lane. The further the passing truck is away, the further I won't deal with their sway. While the last 2 items provide a sense of security, it still seems like too much to do all the time, this is why it's hard for me to plan a Grand Canyon destination trip for example.

5) Something else learned, wind is wind and there's nothing you can do about it. But the only thing you can do is have sway under-control.

The descent down Black Mountain was beautifully controlled by the F150 towing features, but Mother Nature's winds also were in play. Prior to descending I was still enjoying the better ride.

Wind was my problem after descending down. Until wind hit 0, I constantly asked SIRI "what is wind speed right now". Sometimes the iphone gives it to you with speed only, other times it gives you direction as well. A very interesting feature that I noticed I used this week and of course the wind speed was a direct link to the ride.
 
When wind hit 5 mph, I was fine, It was as high as 25 mph at times. it eventually hit 0 and I was in heaven, but what about sway. Only with trucks at that point, and especially if I was zoned out, and missed one coming up on me.

My trip back, I started out with grey and black each ½ full, I did this on purpose. I filled the tank. The ride was not as good as 2nd and last leg of trip in.

Winds were 0, not many trucks early Sunday morning. But as they increased, I moved into negotiations with counter-steering, far right driving etc....

So I'm always prepping for the long trip, and I realize this is not a problem for all, and I am still tweaking it, as I know the ride I want.

If you have any input, please chime in with experiences, secrets, whatever.

Sorry for the very long post, but wasn't sure how to shrink this down without details.

Thanks
 Ken

2014 F150 XLT Ecoboost

2014 Livin Lite 21 BHS

djsamuel

Ken,

Thanks for the post. I didn't think it was too long of a post. The detail really helped.

I have the 21BHS and am towing with a Ram 1500. I towed it some without a weight distribution hitch. When I would lower the trailer onto the hitch, the Ram would only squat 1.5 - 2 inches; and would still sit nice and level. Towing without a WDH was really nice (black and grey tanks empty, and water tank 1/2 full). But, although I didn't experience any sway, I wanted some sway control before taking on any long trips. So, I opted for the Andersen WDH for a couple of reasons. The strengths of the andersen hitch are sway control and bounce control. It does distribute weight, but that is not it's strongest point. Since weight distribution was not a big need, and I did experience some bouncing when driving over small bridges, etc., I figured it would fit the bill. Also, the hitch just clamps on, and is light. So I installed the hitch and tightened up the chains to raise the rear of the truck about an inch, and took it out for a drive. It towed fine, but felt very stiff. I did not like the feel at all. So on my return trip, I set the chain tension to about half of what I had initially. That seemed to dial it right in. Now it tows great, is not distributing much weight since the truck's rear is not raising much when I tighten the chains, so I am not putting a lot of force on the frame. Now, I have great sway control, and it stops the bouncing, which is a nice plus for me.

So if it still doesn't feel quite right, try reducing the weight distribution further, but still utilize the sway control capabilities of the hitch. The 21BHS with the F-150 shouldn't require much in the weight distribution department. I know it doesn't with my Ram 1500.

Doug

Camplite 21BHS / Ram 1500

Central Florida


kenofchattanooga

[quote source="/post/752/thread" timestamp="1398782087" author="@djsamuel"]Ken,

Thanks....

[/quote]I will address that next as well. More sway control, no Weight Distro. Thanks for input.
Ken
2014 F150 XLT Ecoboost

2014 Livin Lite 21 BHS

tinkeringtechie

The downside to the equalizer type hitches is that the pressure on the spring bars is what creates the sway control. If there isn't any weight on the spring bars they will just swing freely.
2014 Camplite 21BHS

2013 Toyota Sequoia 4WD 5.7L

kenofchattanooga

[quote source="/post/756/thread" timestamp="1398785094" author="@tinkeringtechie"]The downside to the equalizer type hitches is that the pressure on the spring bars is what creates the sway control. If there isn't any weight on the spring bars they will just swing freely.[/quote]I've wondered if I had the best hitch. It came with trailer, yet can be purchased for around $550 for the model I have, i don't think its cheap, just wrong maybe.
2014 F150 XLT Ecoboost

2014 Livin Lite 21 BHS

tinkeringtechie

I would recommend checking your tongue weight. The symptoms that you're describing sound like the trailer weight is too far back. More tongue weight on an equalizer setup is a good thing. It makes the trailer less likely to sway AND increases the sway control.
2014 Camplite 21BHS

2013 Toyota Sequoia 4WD 5.7L

djsamuel

You can view a video that provides a good description of the Andersen Hitch here:


[video src="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HRoQ_yQZQwQ"][/video]
Camplite 21BHS / Ram 1500

Central Florida


funpilot

Anyone use a husky straight line on a LL yet?

charliem

[quote source="/post/1601/thread" timestamp="1403211174" author="@funpilot"]Anyone use a husky straight line on a LL yet? [/quote][font size="3"][font face="arial"]Haven't used one but it looks like an Equalizer knock off. here's a link from Forest River:

[a href="http://www.forestriverforums.com/forums/f12/husky-centerline-vs-equalizer-vs-reese-dual-cam-20214.html"]link to Huskey Centerline Thread[/a]

Note the caution on alignment when hitching/unhitching. This could be a problem. And I kinda like a bit of noise from my E2. I know its' working!  Adding grease defeats the purpose.
[/font][/font]
Any 20 minute job can be stretched
to a week with proper planning

Charlie
NW Florida

funpilot

I believe I read somewhere that we should not drill holes in the frame for a WD hitch on our aluminum trailers.  So, is there any kind of consensus which brand is the best for our trailers?  I do not have the personal experience to properly read all the forums that talk about WD and sway control and relate it to the LL.  Help !!

fasteddieb

No holes necessary for either my EAZ-Lift hitch nor my Husky Sway Control (with the optional clamp-on ball).
Mineral Bluff, GA

2014 CampLite 21BHS

2011 Ford Flex EcoBoost

charliem

[font size="3"][font face="arial"]No holes required for Equalizer or E2 WDHs
[/font][/font]
Any 20 minute job can be stretched
to a week with proper planning

Charlie
NW Florida

tinkeringtechie

[quote source="/post/1612/thread" timestamp="1403267511" author="@funpilot"]I believe I read somewhere that we should not drill holes in the frame for a WD hitch on our aluminum trailers.  So, is there any kind of consensus which brand is the best for our trailers?  I do not have the personal experience to properly read all the forums that talk about WD and sway control and relate it to the LL.  Help !![/quote]There are a lot of brands that will work. Just look for "clamp-on" style brackets. I'd be wary of the ones that use set screws though. They'll still call them "clamp-on" because there isn't any drilling, but there's a lot of pressure being focused on the tip of a single bolt/screw. That seems more likely to damage the frame compared to the full length clamp that spreads the pressure over a larger surface area. Here are a couple pictures to illustrate the difference:

full length:
[attachment id="173" thumbnail="1"]

set screw:

[attachment id="174" thumbnail="1"]

It might be overly cautious, but it just seems stronger and easier on the frame to go full-length. Usually the full-length brackets are 1/2" steel vs the 1/4" used on the set screw brackets.




2014 Camplite 21BHS

2013 Toyota Sequoia 4WD 5.7L

vrvinmo

I use the Andersen on my VRV. I really like the hitch. It's clean (no grease needed), quiet, light (around 55#), and removes all sway and bounce. The one caveat is it does not distribute weight as well as a typical WDH using spring bars, so caution if your TT has a lot of TW.

david

I am a brand new member and an owner of a 16' Camplite that we purchased in April of this year. My dealer, Dave at D&H RV just posted an email I sent him about my experiences with the Cl, almost all positive. Please read the comments about WDH/Sway Control. None needed with my tow vehicle, a 2013 Nissan Pathfinder.

We were also interested in the 21' model and for that one our TV would have been marginal without a WDH. As previously reported above LL doesn't really recommend WDHs due to the A-Frame strength so I probably would have strengthened the A frame with welded aluminum plate. Also as noted above it is not recommended to use bolted through brackets on aluminum frames. Here is a short note from Reese Hitch technical folks commenting on their WDH:

Dual cam sway control requires drilling of the frame.  We would suggest the 66558.
Cequent Performance Products

Sway is a matter of TV and trailer geometry and the stiffness of the TV's suspension. There are rules of thumb of the maximum ration of TV wheelbase to TV length for decent towing. I can't quote them but I am sure they can be googled. I suspect that with the 16' Cl I am within the guidelines but outside with the 21' Cl. It also helps a lot that my tow weight is about 60% of the TV loaded weight.

WD is a different issue. It is used to shift some of the trailer's tongue weight from the rear axle to the front axle of the TV. My tongue weight is about 270 lbs (about 8% of the tow weight). I could make it higher by shifting trailer stuff forward, but it works now, so leave it alone. The rear suspension drops about 1-/2 inches and that is acceptable. Much more and I would want a WDH.

My 16'ers trailer loaded weight is about 3,300 lbs. The 21'er is 200-300 lbs heavier and steel frame models hit 4,000# and upwards. I wouldn't want to pull 4,000 lbs with my Pathfinder, even though it is rated for 5.000#.

I would be happy to answer specific WDH/sway hitch and towing questions on this thread. For general Cl stuff, see Dave's post. I will answer those questions in that thread.

David



David M

16TBS towed with a 2013 Nissan Pathfinder