[p]All:[/p][p]
[/p][p]Do any of you have info you can share pulling a camplite with a diesel truck or SUV? I understand diesel will get higher Miles/Gal versus Gas but the fuel is at a higher cost - does the higher mileage outweigh the cost/gallon? I've seen quotes of 9-12 on a gas engine (I get 11.5 with my 4runner) and have seen 16-20 mpg on diesel engines - but I'm trying to validate that 16-20 range - understanding there are many factors involved in actuals.[/p][p]
[/p][p]Thanks[/p][p]Ken[/p]
For this to pencil out, you will also need to factor in the cost difference between fuels, and more importantly the vehicles. Plus, you need to run the numbers at different numbers of miles. So how many miles at what price of fuel do you have to get how much better mileage to offset the more expensive vehicle ?
Unless you just want some psuedo-facts to rationalize getting a diesel, in which case...get a diesel.
[font size="3"]As you can see by the info by my name, we pull our trailer with a diesel vehicle. We've gotten as high as 18, but typically we get about 17 MPG.[/font]
There are WAY too many variables to make individual comparisons useful. Www.fueleconomy.gov reports that diesels get 20-35% better mileage than gassers. The government site that tracks fuel prices shows diesel costs 14% more that regular gas right now. Both percentages will change with supply and demand and with new engine technologies. To complete an economic analysis you'd have to factor in the higher cost of a Diesel engine, whether gas or Diesel engines last longer, and service costs So, test drive for noise, performance and etc. and then get whatever feels right!
I have nothing to offer from first hand experience, like you asked for, except to say be aware of availability issues with diesel. It is more difficult to find at all hours and in every locale.
Other than that I think they are great. Provided you don't get a smelly one.
Brenda thanks much for sharing your data. The Grand Cherokee seems like a nearly ideal tv, if perhaps a little pricey - any downsides to it?
I tow my Camplite 21-BHS with a 2 wheel drive Jeep Grand Cherokee. Downsides - I rarely exceed 55 mph when towing. I have an Equalizer WDH with anti-sway. If wind gusts exceed 25 - 30 mph, I look for some place to stop. And - oh yeah - some guys who tow with a large truck sniff at my Jeep!
I have to include some upsides - better gasoline mileage, easier handling, and just more comfortable than the larger trucks.
As others have indicated, there is no one overwhelming factor that will clinch your decision. Camplites are not heavy enough to require a diesel tow vehicle, so it becomes a matter of personal preference. Regarding fuel economy, divide the cost of fuel by the mpg to get cents per mile of driving. In my case ( AXXESS 26ft, pulled by Ram Ecodiesel) I have gotten between 13 and 18 mpg towing. on the high end, that would be diesel at $2.95 divided by 18, or 16 cents/mile. The variation in mileage is due to speed ( 50 mph vs. 65 mph). The frontal area of an enclosed trailer compared to a boat or a loaded flatbed is more of a factor on mpg than weight of the trailer.
Since the Ram is my everyday driver, I opted for the Ecodiesel over the Hemi for the mpg difference. I get about 26 mpg average(with the AC on in central FLA), so even with the higher price of fuel the math works in my favor. I did pay a premium for the diesel option, but I plan to keep the truck forever, and it should have a higher resale value, so that guided my choice.
This is my first diesel in almost 50 yrs of driving, and so far I love it. One downside is the extra complexity of emission control equipment mandated by the EPA, including the requirement for DEF - diesel exhaust fluid, although it virtually eliminated the smell and smoke. I have literally stuck my nose in the exhaust pipe and it basically smells like steam! This could have an effect of the long term reliability of the whole package, but the durability of the diesel itself is legend. So, bottom line is whatever works for you!
The current high price of diesel vs gasoline ($2.80 vs $2.25 in my area) virtually negates the better efficiency of diesel. The cause is subject to much debate: from a global oil company conspiracy to supply and demand considerations (my theory). But it is here to stay and it is unfortunate.
Diesels will never catch on in the US unless the foregoing changes or it is changed by differential taxes like in Europe.
David
Quote from: @gwbushhog" timestamp="1428589943" source="/post/9044/threadOne downside is the extra complexity of emission control equipment mandated by the EPA, including the requirement for DEF - diesel exhaust fluid, although it virtually eliminated the smell and smoke.
To me, this is the deal breaker. Diesel engines are fundamentally simpler than gas engines, but once you throw on all of the emissions burden it becomes much more complex. Every little bit of exhaust runs through a particulate filter that has to "regen" or it clogs up and slows to a crawl (potentially needing to be replaced). So don't plan on taking in on small trips to the grocery store too often. The AdBlue addititive adds a few cents per gallon to your fuel cost but nobody seems to calculate that in their comparisons. All that plus a dozen flaky sensors to monitor the emissions system and you're looking at significant increase in the purchase price and more maintenance costs as well. Basically the EPA ruined what could have been a competitive alternative.
I used to own a BMW diesel 3-series (335d), and while I didn't use it as a tow vehicle, the observations about the DEF and related emissions issues on modern diesels are very accurate. I loved the torque, milesge and theoretical increased resale value of the diesel, as well as the $7500 tax credit. BUT, the emissions management system was a mess. Lots of error codes, fouled injectors, crystallized DEF problems, etc. I'm sure all manufacturers have made some progress in that area in the last couple of years, but it still seems to be a learning curve for at least some of them.
Graham
The emission control systems on gas engines are complex too, but manufacturers perfected (so to speak) those and it's hard to argue against the significantly cleaner air we all breathe because of the Clean Air Act. I'm really impressed with progress on clean diesel and remain optimistic that manufacturers will (eventually) get that right too. In the meantime, I for one am very happy to live in a country with a Clean Air Act.
[quote source="/post/9037/thread" author="@whoofit" timestamp="1428580372"]I have nothing to offer from first hand experience, like you asked for, except to say be aware of availability issues with diesel. It is more difficult to find at all hours and in every locale.
[/quote]I live in southeast PA. I don't have any numbers or anything, but I've noticed a definite trend in the past year or so of more and more gas stations adding 1 or 2 diesel pumps. The main chain I see doing this is Wawa who must have an initiative to do this because they have systematically added diesel to every station I pass in my daily travels.
[quote source="/post/9040/thread" timestamp="1428587299" author="@nmken"]Brenda thanks much for sharing your data. The Grand Cherokee seems like a nearly ideal tv, if perhaps a little pricey - any downsides to it?[/quote]Yes! The DEF (diesel exhaust fluid) for emission control -- thank you, government O_o . You have to add it about every 4-5,000 miles and if you do it yourself, you risk warranty issues. If you have a dealer do it, you pay considerably more. Other than that, we love it and it fits in our garage.
[quote source="/post/9064/thread" timestamp="1428622025" author="@sandroad"]The emission control systems on gas engines are complex too, but manufacturers perfected (so to speak) those and it's hard to argue against the significantly cleaner air we all breathe because of the Clean Air Act. I'm really impressed with progress on clean diesel and remain optimistic that manufacturers will (eventually) get that right too. In the meantime, I for one am very happy to live in a country with a Clean Air Act. [/quote][p]I am too. Impressed both with how diesel emissions have improved and by how much cleaner the air is in general. I don't agree with [strong]all[/strong] of the Clean Air Act, and [strong]all[/strong] of what is leveraged in the name of it, but in general it is a good thing for sure.[/p][p]
[/p][p]My only wish is that the manufacturers would somehow be more responsible for perfecting these methods by design versus using the masses as Guinea Pigs. I remember the nightmare of being a mechanic in the early 80's. Plagued with problems that are largely gone today.[/p][p]
[/p][p]Living smack dab in the middle of the "tailpipe of the nation" I appreciate clean air.
[/p]
[quote source="/post/9078/thread" author="@tlbones" timestamp="1428632169"][quote timestamp="1428580372" author="@whoofit" source="/post/9037/thread"]I have nothing to offer from first hand experience, like you asked for, except to say be aware of availability issues with diesel. It is more difficult to find at all hours and in every locale.
[/quote]I live in southeast PA. I don't have any numbers or anything, but I've noticed a definite trend in the past year or so of more and more gas stations adding 1 or 2 diesel pumps. The main chain I see doing this is Wawa who must have an initiative to do this because they have systematically added diesel to every station I pass in my daily travels. [/quote][p]Diesel is readily available around here. You need to drive by several gas stations and some miles to get it but it's around if you already know where to get it. It would be more viable if every station had diesel. I would consider it more heavily if that were the case. Who knows where it could be had in an area unknown.[/p][p]
[/p][p]As an aside, we used to be able to run down the station and purchase K1 at the pump. They made that illegal for who knows why?
[/p]
[quote timestamp="1428663987" author="@whoofit" source="/post/9097/thread"]
Quote from: @sandroad" timestamp="1428622025" source="/post/9064/threadThe emission control systems on gas engines are complex too, but manufacturers perfected (so to speak) those and it's hard to argue against the significantly cleaner air we all breathe because of the Clean Air Act. I'm really impressed with progress on clean diesel and remain optimistic that manufacturers will (eventually) get that right too. In the meantime, I for one am very happy to live in a country with a Clean Air Act.
[p]I am too. Impressed both with how diesel emissions have improved and by how much cleaner the air is in general. I don't agree with [strong]all[/strong] of the Clean Air Act, and [strong]all[/strong] of what is leveraged in the name of it, but in general it is a good thing for sure.[/p][p]
[/p][p]My only wish is that the manufacturers would somehow be more responsible for perfecting these methods by design versus using the masses as Guinea Pigs. I remember the nightmare of being a mechanic in the early 80's. Plagued with problems that are largely gone today.[/p][p]
[/p][p]Living smack dab in the middle of the "tailpipe of the nation" I appreciate clean air.
[/p][/quote]I didn't mean to imply that the EPA shouldn't have added these restrictions. I cringe just as much as the next guy when someone floors it in their old diesel truck and a black cloud explodes out of the tailpipe. What I was trying to say is that they basically had to remove all of the competitive advantages of the diesel to make it clean.
Brenda -
Do-it-yourself filling of DEF does not void the factory warranty. Not sure about Cherokee, but the Ram User guide includes on page 152 a section regarding adding DEF. When your DEF gauge reads half-way or below, simply add a container of any commercially available DEF. I buy "Blue-DEF" from Wal-Mart in a 2- gallon container. I have 15K miles on my truck so I have added DEF twice already. Since our vehicles have an 8-gal DEF tank I say wait until the half way mark just to avoid the potential for overfilling. A full tank is supposed to last around 8K miles, and my experience tracks with that rule of thumb.
Back to the emissions control equipment topic, I agree that the EPA has gone overboard with regulations. I have worked in the power generation industry for 40 years. I have been to China, India and Mexico and have seen what no controls of any kind looks like - not pretty or healthy. On the other hand, I have insider experience with the EPA's war on coal and what their agenda is. Bottom line, we have been placed on this earth to be good stewards of its resources, and when that responsibility is corrupted by either the greed for profits or the hunger for governing power, the results are harmful in one way or another.
Since I owned my RAM1500 (gas) before I bought the CL I of course side with gas power. My brother who owns a standard trailer about 28' uses a RAM diesel. He loves the diesel until he pulls in for fuel. It definitely has the torque and beefed up brake/suspension is nice. But with the lighter CL I feel I just dont need it.
Certainly diesels with current emission modifications are more of a PITA and less reliable than before when there were no regulations. But I do think that the industry will improve reliability and maybe even be able to do away with external chemical injection over time.
Look at the gasoline engine. During the late 60s and early 70s cars were almost undriveable. Carburetors were leaned to the point that the car stumbled and backfired when accelerating. But the industry came up with catalytic converters and electronic fuel injection which made them fun to drive but they met increasingly stringent emissions regs.
I expect the same thing to happen with diesels. We are back in the early 70s with diesels and there is a long way to go.
They have done wonders so far for smoke and soot. Some passenger diesels don't use a particulate filter and I'll bet DEF injection will be gone before long.
David
[quote source="/post/9112/thread" timestamp="1428680492" author="@gwbushhog"]Brenda -
Do-it-yourself filling of DEF does not void the factory warranty. Not sure about Cherokee, but the Ram User guide includes on page 152 a section regarding adding DEF. When your DEF gauge reads half-way or below, simply add a container of any commercially available DEF. I buy "Blue-DEF" from Wal-Mart in a 2- gallon container. I have 15K miles on my truck so I have added DEF twice already. Since our vehicles have an 8-gal DEF tank I say wait until the half way mark just to avoid the potential for overfilling. A full tank is supposed to last around 8K miles, and my experience tracks with that rule of thumb.
Back to the emissions control equipment topic, I agree that the EPA has gone overboard with regulations. I have worked in the power generation industry for 40 years. I have been to China, India and Mexico and have seen what no controls of any kind looks like - not pretty or healthy. On the other hand, I have insider experience with the EPA's war on coal and what their agenda is. Bottom line, we have been placed on this earth to be good stewards of its resources, and when that responsibility is corrupted by either the greed for profits or the hunger for governing power, the results are harmful in one way or another.
[/quote]Yes, but we've seen posts from Jeep GC owners in other forums where they did just as you said with the DEF, and then there was some problem and they were blamed for using some inferior brand fluid and the warranty was toast, costing the owners big bucks to fix their car. So there is some risk and we're a little nervous about it. We had to take our Jeep in three times to the dealer because of the check engine light and DEF issues right after we bought it. They ended up (vehicle was still less than 2 months old) having to replace the catalytic converter (on warranty) and since then, the light has stayed off.
One little side note, my husband has made his own diesel fuel .... I forget what it's called .... bio-diesel!... out of old cooking oil and used it to fuel our 2007 Chev. Silverado pickup, that we no longer own. It worked really well. But can't do it anymore, thanks to the new technology. (And here again, I am way over my head in this conversation.)
But, as I said, other than that, we love driving it.
Wanted to update this thread with current experience. I buy fuel in Sanford, FL, where the difference between regular gas and diesel is now 10 cents!
Our Ram Ecodiesel is approaching 20K miles. Have had several issues with CELs (check engine light) which were handled under warranty. No driveability issues, and still getting 26 mpg average with AC on. Towing our 26 ft Axxess, getting 13-14 mpg. Love my diesel!
For us the extra cost of the diesel just doesn't pencil out. You pay a pretty good chunk of change more for the vehicle up front and you pay more per gallon so the payback is many years/miles out.
I tend to agree with Bill. The upfront costs of a Diesel engine and extended costs of fuel just did not work out for me so I went with the RAM 1500 with 5.7 HEMI. During our recent trip to pick-up our camper we had the truck loaded and averaged 20 mpg on interstate once we were towing we averaged 9-12 depending on what leg of the 2000 mile trip we were on. The 9 was for the last 400 miles into a steady headwind.
Currently in Wyoming diesel is cheaper than gas.
It is in Nevada now too. Not the normal trend but good to see.
Diesel was also much cheaper in California when I was there a couple months ago, but gas was about a dollar more a gallon than Florida prices.
[p]I will be making a change (soon) in a different TV and debated the Diesel Vs the Gasser.
I'm not fortunate to get the same results as Bill with his F150 5.0L motor, this could be where I live and where I tow 95% of the time. My 5.4L did the same so I know there is nothing wrong with the 5.0L. Since I have gotten this LL I do Tow heavier loads than before and my 5.0L see's 2nd gear way more than I like.[/p][p]I on a avg I get around 10.2mpg w/my F150 when towing, speeds no more than 62mph and less depending on speed limits but all of this is climbing in elevation. I start out at 5644ft and in 3.5 hours I am at 8700ft, my F150 never see's 6th gear, very little of 5th, a little of 4th and mostly 3rd and into 2nd of the steeper long climbs. I never drop below the posted speed limits other than on the Interstates. I get the same MPG when I tow to even higher elevations up to and over 10,000ft.
After figuring everything out for the Diesel Vs the Gasser and all of the EPA Diesel stuff, additional upfront cost, maintenance difference between the two I decided to stay with the Gasser and back into a Ford Superduty.
It really comes down to what you the owner feels best with. There are Forums as well on any vehicle out there to check and see what owners are feeling and saying about there vehicles both Diesel and Gasser's.
Depending on the load you are towing, where you tow, elevations you tow and even the cost of fuel will be part of your decision. Diesel fuel shouldn't be a issue in finding it at any gas station anymore, at least everywhere I have ever traveled to, they all carried Diesel fuel as well.[/p]
The difference is the altitude. I rarely get over 4000 ft. A non-turbo gas engine loses a significant amount of power at altitude. If I spent a lot of time towing at high altitude, I would have gotten the EcoBoost engine instead of the 5.0L.
billmore: I think you are much better of with the 5.0 engine, nothing beats cubic inches for torque and long engine life. Sure normally aspirated engines lose power at higher altitudes, but just open the throttle to get it back if you have the cubic inches behind it. You are using the piston to compress the air and not a turbo when you open the throttle.
swbc150: Your towing profile is made for a diesel: extended high torque requirement. A diesel should beat a gasser in this situation with a 20& or better improvement in fuel economy. I am surprised you chose a gasser.
David
David, I normally would agree with you, but I've been really impressed with everything I've read about the 3.5L EcoBoost. It has a torque curve more like a diesel than a gas engine. 365 HP, 420 ft-lbs of torque, which is great, but the truly impressive spec is that its torque curve crosses 350 ft-lbs at 1400 rpms and stays above that mark until about 5500 rpms.
As you can see above, even the 6.2L can't touch it for towing torque.
As far as longevity, there are quite a few out there with over 100K miles already, but only time will tell if it can match the V8...
Thanks for posting the curves.
I certainly agree that the EB is impressive with more than 400 ft lbs of torque at 2,000 rpm. But those 400 ft lbs will generate a lot of stress and heat in a 3.5 liter engine. I will bet that the 5.0 liter engine has twice as much bearing and piston area to take that stress as the EB. Also the exhaust gas temperature will be high with that much extra air being pumped in and burned. But I suspect Ford used the best metallurgy for the valves to deal with that heat.
Yes time will tell how that engine holds up under heavy towing loads.
David
Pretty impressive, David. This proboard is privileged to have you smart chaps sharing your expertise.
I still feel more comfortable with the SuperDuty Truck and the Diesel option I did look at but stayed with the gasser.
I have two VW Golf-series diesels. Both have trip computers built-in so I've got lots of figures.
My 2010 Golf couple with the 6 speed manual transmission is the tow vehicle for our 6.0. It's a fabulous tow vehicle. Plenty of torque and control. MPG with the camper is 28 - 34. MPG in suburban congestion is about 38. Average trip MPG without the camper is about 44. On one trip from Birmingham to Orlando, I got just over 47 MPG both ways. I would not hesitate to pull a 10.0 with the Golf TDI.
My wife has a 2012 Jetta Sport Wagon (aka. Golf Estate). Since it has the "DSG" automated dual-clutch gear box, we don't tow with it. It gets about 35 around town. Last September we drove it to Las Vegas. The return trip was 1,800 miles or so in 27 hours at an average speed of 69 MPH and 42 MPG.
Neither of these cars use exhaust fluid, but they do have a complicated emissions system. With about 45,000 miles on the wagon and 85,000 miles on the coupe, both emissions systems have been trouble free. The Golf had a sensor go out early in its life, but it wasn't a big deal. The cars have a 10,000 mile service interval, so the expensive oil change isn't that expensive because it isn't required very often. So far, the only expensive service has been the 40,000 mile DSG transmission service and timing belt replacement around 85,000 (unless you feel lucky).
We bought the 2010 and liked it so much, we bought the 2012. We have no regrets and would do it again.
I have another perspective on diesel vs gasoline which is mileage range, we tow our 6x15 toyhauler with a Toyota Tundra with the 4.7 liter engine, we get around 10-11mpg towing at 60-65mph.
The fuel capacity is 26 gallons and a quirk with the Tundras is the fuel light comes on when you get down to 6 gallons left in the tank, which means you really have enough fuel for about 250 miles, but it's a little nerve wracking wondering if you really have enough fuel or not.
The most distance I have squeezed was about 230 miles looking at the fuel warning light for 30 of those miles, it gets my wife very nervous!
Day one of our Louisiana to Colorado trips is always 900 miles in 16 hours (that's why we go 65mph) which means four to five fuel stops, the Grand Cherokee diesel would definitely get it down to around three stops but actually a stop every three hours is just about right for Dairy Queen/restroom/coffee/leg stretching.
I have heard quite a few reports of numerous fault lights coming on at random on the Grand Cherokee diesels, no fun when on a multi day trip, especially on a weekend between Tucumcari NM and Amarillo TX!!
Happy travels
David and Alice
That is why I love the 36 gallon tank on my F150. Fill it up and the trip computer says 650 miles to empty (although I only get about half that when towing)... :)
I Have towed with gas and now own a diesel, I would say there is no comparison, especially when it comes to towing up hill, (I owned a 22H Nash). My old Dodge, ( I bought new ) had a 5.9 V8, when towing it got about 9 mpg, it had the 4.10 rear end and couldn't tow up hill to save it self. I now have a 2011 chevy diesel 6.6 and it can actually accelerate up hill while towing, and I'm getting 15 - 17 mpg. The service life of the engine, (in fleet use ) is over 200,000 miles, I don't think you'll see those kind of numbers in a gasser. however there's a premium price you pay for that.
Just some factoids on the F-150's.
In 2015 over 33% of trucks were sold with the 5.0. The rest are combined with all other engines.
In 2018 Ford has announced it will offer the 5.0 Ecoboost.
Looks like there is no denying the V8 is here to stay. That V8 EB will be a monster.
As for towing, diesel is the way to go, more then half of all HD pick up trucks sold are diesel. Light duty truck are just starting to introduce smaller diesels which BTW have been manufactured by all the major car copies for decades, just not sold in this country.
We have a CL13BHB with the off road package, which puts it a lot higher off the road, and therefore cuts mileage, I'm sure. Plus we have the older flatter front profile. How much that matters, who knows? We started pulling it with an older Acura MDX rated for 3500 pounds. We ususally drive around 55. Mileage went from 22 without the trailer to about 12 with. It handled mountain passes reasonably well, but it felt like we were abusing it. We traded that in for a 2007 ML320 CDI (this was the diesel before the new additive - it is still cleaner than old diesels, no smoke, pretty quiet, and smells like chlorine, not diesel). With this, our mileage goes from 26 to 16 with towing at 55, so still about a 10 mpg hit. The big difference is that it doesn't even know it is pulling anything and laughs at steep passes. It is a small SUV that fits well in our small garage. A lot of the newer diesels, including the MLs, now come with no spare because the space is taken up by the urea tank. Given where we travel, this was unacceptable. We even replaced the mini spare with a full size one. It still fits by leaving the cover elevated a little in the back compartment. We have been very happy with our choice. Any new diesel was out of our price range, but hopefully we can keep this one running a long time. The main issues will be electronic, I'm sure.