Hi I have been reading up on this forum and a couple others. Thanks for all the great info. I am looking to get our first TT. We had a popup for years but time to move up, still young at heart but... As I read about all the campers it seems like leaks are the biggest issue across them all. The second observation is that folks seem to change campers based on differing needs / wants within 5 years. I think we have narrowed our choices down to the R-pods or Livin Lite. I think there are two big differences one is cost and second is no wood to be damaged on Livin Lite. My thought is both can have leaks but LL will have less long term issues. However the cost if you were to trade the LL after 3 to 5 years seems to me to be much more than the R-pod if you were to trade after 3 to 5 years. Was looking for thoughts on 1. How much of an issue leaks have been for you and if that impacts the way the r-pods age, and 2. Any thoughts on trade value proposition either way? Thanks for any input in advance.
[font size="3"]Wow! You have posed a really tough question. Having owned both an RPOD and a Camplite (CL), still being a card carrying member on both forums and wishing to continue being accepted on both forums, I am uniquely qualified and uniquely challenged to address your question. IMO these two campers are the best on the market in this size/weight range. So some observations:
Leaks are primarily a problem with the tent models. Although occasionally a problem, much less so on hard sided models. Both factories are subject to Monday/Friday workmanship problems.
For a given length the Pods are generally lighter and much better insulated. If tow vehicle capability is an issue consider the smaller Pods.
The Pods are 8' wide at the wheels, but 6.5' wide in the box. A bit more stable and easier to see around, but more cramped inside. The CLs are 7' wide overall. Overall width may be a storage parking issue.
The 14 and 16 foot CLs are comparable to the 17x and 18x Pods, but the Pods have wet baths whereas the CLs have dry baths. The Pods have smaller refrigerators. These two items, along with a walk around queen bed in the 21' CLs, were the reasons I traded from a Pod to the 21RBS CL.
The pods are all single axle the CLs have two. This adds weight to the CLs, but makes them a little more capable and reliable on the road.
The aluminum, no wood construction of the CL is definitely a plus for maintenance and longevity, but you pay for it initially. I have no data on resale values.
An argument can be made to go smaller/cheaper for the first camper and move up when you have more experience. Overall that costs more, but you'll come closer to the ideal the second time around.
The CL factory has been very willing to accommodate customization requests from buyers. Not so with Pods.
Factory and warranty support is comparable for both models. Good and bad stories exist.
There are many more Rpod dealers. It's easier to go and sit in one on a dealer's lot. After purchase service should not be an issue either way.
Both models have active and helpful forums. Check out the rpod-owners.com group.
As an engineer and tinkerer I was really drawn to the CL. [/font][font size="3"]An example are the aircraft type cabinet latches. Nothing falls out while traveling. [/font][font size="3"]CLs all aluminum construction and 1" square tubing framing makes adding and hanging things easy. All plumbing and wiring is accessible so modifications can be made and problems can be found/fixed. Again, you get what you pay for.
A lot depends on what you plan to tow with. If you have the capability the slide outs and second axle make life easier and safer in case of tire failure.
The bottom line is you've got a difficult decision to make. Lots of factors. Check back here from time to time as I will update this post when I think of new comments. Read all the comments from others as they chime in. We all have our preferences.
Good luck on your research and please let us know how you resolve it. You'll be happy either way. Camp on![/font]
We thought about this very question before getting our Camplite, as it is our first camping trailer of any type. From the first RV show visit to picking up the special order Camplite was about 3 years, so we were not exactly spontaneous! To say the least, the purchase was well researched. The only data point we lacked was depreciation. There are so few Camplites for sale (or sold) used, that it's really hard to figure out what they are worth. In the end, we decided to simply not worry about that, get what we wanted, and customize and modify to make it our own. It's not possible to predict the future very far out, but unless something really unusual happens, I fully expect it to be in the family for many years. Charliem did a great job in his post and nailed all the important points based on the comparisons my wife and did. I'm curious about the statistic that folks change campers within 5 years. I don't personally know anyone who has done that. Boats, yes, but not trailers.
[font size="3"]We need an input from TinkeringTechie here. Also a previous RPOD owner.
[/font]
[quote source="/post/4899/thread" timestamp="1415405169" author="@dsinger1"] Hi I have been reading up on this forum and a couple others. Thanks for all the great info. I am looking to get our first TT. We had a popup for years but time to move up, still young at heart but... As I read about all the campers it seems like leaks are the biggest issue across them all. The second observation is that folks seem to change campers based on differing needs / wants within 5 years. I think we have narrowed our choices down to the R-pods or Livin Lite. I think there are two big differences one is cost and second is no wood to be damaged on Livin Lite. My thought is both can have leaks but LL will have less long term issues. However the cost if you were to trade the LL after 3 to 5 years seems to me to be much more than the R-pod if you were to trade after 3 to 5 years. Was looking for thoughts on 1. How much of an issue leaks have been for you and if that impacts the way the r-pods age, and 2. Any thoughts on trade value proposition either way? Thanks for any input in advance. [/quote]We had a Chalet A-frame pop-up before purchasing the CampLite. Our Chalet developed wood floor rot. Later Chalet models have composite floors. We decided to go with a camper that does not have wood in the structure. Even Airstreams built in America have wood sub floors. We liked the aluminum plank flooring in CampLites. Met one guy with a LivinLite toy hauler, he washes the floor out after a trip with a water hose.
Our CampLite had a leak in one of the roof seams where it was not sealed completely from the factory. Purchased RV roof sealer and fixed the problem. Did not have damage from the leak, either.
Some dealers will only give wholesale value on trade-ins. Selling a CampLite on the open market would probably yield more for the CL when sold at this time. Hopefully CL TT will retain "more" value once consumers learn how durable they are.
We don't mind storing our CL outside. I'm a Pliot and fly aluminum aircraft up to 50 years old. Not sure how well fiberglass camper hold up with time.
We have been thinking about moving up in size with a CL TT, but not in a hurry.
Thanks for the thoughtful reply's! The towing situation is definitely a factor we have to figure out as well. We are very much interested in the CL DB16 with tipout or the rpod 178. The CL dry weight 2750 but assume with options probably a couple hundred pound more. The Pod dry weight is 2535. Our tow vehicle is a Toyota Venza with the tow package. It is rated for 3500lbs. GVWR is 5270 and GCWR is 8770. So I know we are tight especially on the CL16DB. Would appreciate any thoughts. Thanks
Quote from: @dsinger1" source="/post/4908/thread" timestamp="1415459818Thanks for the thoughtful reply's! The towing situation is definitely a factor we have to figure out as well. We are very much interested in the CL DB16 with tipout or the rpod 178. The CL dry weight 2750 but assume with options probably a couple hundred pound more. The Pod dry weight is 2535. Our tow vehicle is a Toyota Venza with the tow package. It is rated for 3500lbs. GVWR is 5270 and GCWR is 8770. So I know we are tight especially on the CL16DB. Would appreciate any thoughts. Thanks
[p]I don't think you have enough tow vehicle for either, frankly. Not trying to be mean, but you'll be on the road with the rest of us. I tow a DB14DBS with a 4Runner and it is comfortable. With options and gear, our trailer scales right around 3600 pretty consistently.[/p][p]
[/p][p]We looked hard at the R-Pods and CL's, over several years. We spent a week in a rented R-Pod. The particle board interior had taken a beating, but it was a rental, and we figured we'd be less abusive than renters are. The floor plan of the R-Pod with a dinette at one end and bed at the other, and the kitchen on a slideout was really, really nice. There was more counter space in the RP. [/p][p]
[/p][p]In the end, for us, it was the bathroom. If you are happy using the toilet on an airplane, go for the R-Pod. If you find them next to unusable, go for the CL or something with a dry bathroom.[/p][p]
[/p][p]If you are worried about leaks (and every RV owner has this in the back of their mind) the CL will survive a leak better than anything that has wood in it.[/p][p]
[/p][p]The 10 grand in cost difference could be the upgrade to your TV, FWIW.[/p][p]
[/p]
[font size="3"]I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but I agree with Pinstriper: you are too close on tow vehicle capability. [/font][font size="3"]The general rule of adding 1000# to the dry weight for stuff and junk is pretty reliable. [/font][font size="3"]When I selected the RPOD 172 I was towing with a 4WD 3.5L Honda Pilot rated at 4500#. It was OK at sea level on level ground, but was struggling in the mountains at altitude. I know many Pod owners tow the smaller Pods with 3500# rated vehicles, but most eventually upgrade to larger TVs. That said, here are a few more thoughts:
The CL comes with a dry bath and slightly larger fridge; both were huge advantages to us.
With a smaller SUV you will definitely need a weight distribution hitch (WDH). The pictures of the CL 16BD still show the T shaped tongue vs. the true A-frame configuration shown on all their other 16s. WDH will not work on the T tongues. Check with LL; I think they have upgraded all their 16s to A-Frames. There is some concern with using a WDH on unibody SUVs, but I had no issues on the Pilot. However it was 4WD rated at 4500#. FWD vs. 4WD, AWD or RWD is an issue when towing, especially without WDH, since the trailer takes weight off the front axle.
If you plan to camp in cooler weather the RPOD is better insulated and cozier, especially compared to the CL tent flip-out. However the RPOD heater is located right below the bed and noise has been a consistent complaint on the forum.
Good luck and keep in touch :).
[/font]
I'll weigh in on the tow vehicle also. A good friend of mine has a 2012 Camplite 13 QBB she towed with a Subaru Outback. The outback is rated for 3,000 lbs I believe. On a trip this summer she blew the head gasket. The vehicle was well overweight once you calculate the weight of passengers and gear and so of course the repair was not qualified for warranty. I'm a firm believer in having more then needed for a tow vehicle. Not much sucks worse then breaking down in the middle of nowhere or worse yet not having enough vehicle to avoid an potential accident.
Wait, why is it bad news when someone agrees with me ?
[quote source="/post/4920/thread" timestamp="1415476482" author="@pinstriper"]Wait, why is it bad news when someone agrees with me ?[/quote][font size="3"]Not bad that I agree with you, that will happen from time to time, but bad that I had to tell someone their TV was not going to work 8-|. Not a pleasant task, but necessary.
[/font]
[quote source="/post/4908/thread" timestamp="1415459818" author="@dsinger1"] Thanks for the thoughtful reply's! The towing situation is definitely a factor we have to figure out as well. We are very much interested in the CL DB16 with tipout or the rpod 178. The CL dry weight 2750 but assume with options probably a couple hundred pound more. The Pod dry weight is 2535. Our tow vehicle is a Toyota Venza with the tow package. It is rated for 3500lbs. GVWR is 5270 and GCWR is 8770. So I know we are tight especially on the CL16DB. Would appreciate any thoughts. Thanks[/quote]What engine does your Venza have? The 2.7-liter four-cylinder 182 horsepower, 182 pound-feet of torque or 3.5-liter V6 268 hp, 246 lb-ft of torque.
We have the V6 with the tow package and AWD.
Dave
Dave,
Please forgive me for talking about issues you already know.
We've been thinking about moving up in TT size, too. It's a vicious circle, larger camper needs larger TV, many times. Your TV has more HP than our TV, but our crew cab pickup is rated for 6300lb tow capacity with 630lb tongue capacity. Some of the differences in tow vehicles were mentioned earlier in this thread. We purchased our current TV to handle a larger TT. Even though our TV will handle a 21BHB, it still is not large enough for "me" to safely tow the 21BHB during emergency situations after reading about "actual" weights of forum's member's 21BHB TTs.
One of the things we like about our CL TT is the 60X80 Queen Bed mattress available off the shelf from any local mattress sale dealer. Every time we look at campers, first thing I look at is bed size. Our camper has a dinette that sets up as a 60X80 bed, but someone still has to crawl over someone in the middle of the night. We installed a memory foam mattress and never set up the dinette in our TT. My Wife really likes the 21BHB bed that you can step off the ends or sides, but I like the 16TBS because it fits our current TV "easily" and you can step off the end of the bed.
In the end, I'm going to hold out for the 21BHB and eventually buy a larger TV.
Are you in the US and if so, what region? I've always found it helpful to speak directly to owners of the model camper we're interested in to form realistic ideas from towing to camper amenities.
Hopefully we will have a LivinLite Rally during 2015 in the US so folks can learn why we decided to purchase our campers and so we can share ideas, too!
Good Luck on your search!
[quote source="/post/4905/thread" timestamp="1415452958" author="@charliem"][font size="3"]We need an input from TinkeringTechie here. Also a previous RPOD owner.
[/font][/quote]Ditto on your response.
The RPOD was our starter trailer and we liked it, but the Camplite is what we want long term. Luckily we were able to sell our RPod for only $2k less than we purchased it for 2 years earlier. I'd consider $1k a year to be holding value pretty well.
One thing I'd add that is a pro for Camplite is general durability. Our daughter (2 years old at the time) managed to break many things in the RPod without even thinking about it: *oh this cabinet door looks like a good step... crunch... that piece of upholstered plywood looks like I could pull on... snap*. The camplite has taken the full brunt of her (now almost 5) and my 1 year old son without so much as a scratch (though it has scratched them).
Quote from: @dsinger1" timestamp="1415459818" source="/post/4908/threadThanks for the thoughtful reply's! The towing situation is definitely a factor we have to figure out as well. We are very much interested in the CL DB16 with tipout or the rpod 178. The CL dry weight 2750 but assume with options probably a couple hundred pound more. The Pod dry weight is 2535. Our tow vehicle is a Toyota Venza with the tow package. It is rated for 3500lbs. GVWR is 5270 and GCWR is 8770. So I know we are tight especially on the CL16DB. Would appreciate any thoughts. Thanks
Having towed an RPod with a 3500lb rated vehicle I can tell you that it's passable, but only barely so. Honestly, I wouldn't go any bigger than the 13 ft Camplites, and you'd be even more comfortable with the 11's.
TANSTATMTV
[quote source="/post/4939/thread" timestamp="1415550488" author="@pinstriper"]TANSTATMTV[/quote][font size="3"]I admit I'm aging, but ? ? ?
[/font]
I think it has something to do with MTV, a channel that I never watch.
There are no such things as too much tow vehicle?
[quote source="/post/4942/thread" timestamp="1415555393" author="@djsamuel"]There are no such things as too much tow vehicle? [/quote][p]Winner.[/p][p]
[/p][p]There ain't no such thing as Too Much Tow Vehicle.
[/p]
[quote source="/post/4947/thread" timestamp="1415576915" author="@pinstriper"][quote source="/post/4942/thread" timestamp="1415555393" author="@djsamuel"]There are no such things as too much tow vehicle? [/quote][p]Winner.[/p][p]
[/p][p]There ain't no such thing as Too Much Tow Vehicle.
[/p][/quote][font size="3"]Or as I always say: There's no such thing as too much garlic.
[/font]
With the tow vehicule that you have you could look at the 13' models that's what I have with a 3500 lbs TV
We looked at RPods when before settling on our 16DB. I thought the pros where the various well thought out floor plans. Cons for us where the wetbath and the lack of a permanent awning. Good luck with your hunting!
ExploringCarolina
Well we may end up doing the same as you are thinking, get a different vehicle and the larger trailer. I agree the CLs are really great trailers from what I have read and would be my choice if money isn't a factor. Sorry have to figure out how to update my profile. We are in Vermont and it would be great to talk to someone that owns a CL.
Paul
Thanks for weighing in. I see your CL is 2015 model. How many miles towing have you done with the combination if I can ask. Do you find there are any drawbacks?
TinkeringTechie
Thanks for the input. It looks like the CL13 QBB is about 200lbs less than the R-Pod and 400lbs from the 16DB. So would give a little more leeway. What was the biggest problem with towing your pod with a 3500lb rated vehicle?
I guess what I am thinking is of trying it with the Venza (using WDH and sway control), as in the next couple years we will be doing mostly local or short trips. My thought is that if we find it to not be enough vehicle we could then move up prior to getting to adventuresome. Do you think I am out of line or not being safe by doing so?
Just wanted to mention I appreciate all the good info here and the advice folks are taking time to provide. Really looking forward to having a TT to join in.
Thanks, Dave
Dave,
Searched the forum and could not find anyone in Vermont, but someone else may be able to.
When looking for a CampLite 11, Don @ LivinLite told me where the closest one was located at a dealership in the US.
Purchased the CampLite later that week Don told me about. Not sure if LivinLite knows locations of CampLite owners.
Some manufacturers have a program for owners to show their camper to prospective buyers, but not familiar with any program
like this with LivinLite.
Quote from: @dsinger1" timestamp="1415833975" source="/post/5041/threadTinkeringTechie
Thanks for the input. It looks like the CL13 QBB is about 200lbs less than the R-Pod and 400lbs from the 16DB. So would give a little more leeway. What was the biggest problem with towing your pod with a 3500lb rated vehicle?
The biggest problem was that it was under-powered and felt like it was getting jerked around all the time. Our vehicle didn't allow for a WDH, so we just had a friction bar. That helped keep it straight, but it was still really bouncy.
Dave where in Vermont are you? I'm near Glens Falls NY which is pretty close to the VT border.
Hi Mitch
I am in Essex Junction. Glens Falls is about 2.5 hours from here. I have already looked at the CL 13 and 16 trailers. We have a dealer 25 miles from here. I see you pull your CL13QBB with a Toyota Tacoma? Which model? How do you like the 13Qbb? We are worried it is pretty tight inside, but nice to have the bed and bath.
Cheers, Dave
Hi Dave,
My Tacoma is the V6 4 (or 4.3) liter. I really like the 13 foot but it is a bit tight for 2 people as far as moving around goes. I wanted the QBB because I didn't want to mess around with converting a table into a bed or any of that "stuff", in addition we got the dinette and not the sofa so there was no putting up a table in front of the sofa issue. Bottom line was I didn't want to have to mess around with multiple configurations depending on the usage. I did think about the 16 but in truth even with the extra footage the configuration is pretty much the same, dry bath notwithstanding. Overall I'm very pleased.
[quote source="/post/5041/thread" timestamp="1415833975" author="@dsinger1"]ExploringCarolina
Paul
Thanks for weighing in. I see your CL is 2015 model. How many miles towing have you done with the combination if I can ask. Do you find there are any drawbacks?
[/quote]I did probably over 2500 to 3000 miles with it. I even did a drive that was 750 miles (my dealer is far away from where I live) the only drawback I see I guess is that you still have to take in consideration what you bring with you so you don't overload, but I didn't had any problem with it and I brought mostly all what I needed. I am not sure of the real weight of my trailer as I never went to the scale but I think it is withins my limits.
[quote source="/post/5105/thread" timestamp="1416083945" author="@paul"][quote source="/post/5041/thread" timestamp="1415833975" author="@dsinger1"]ExploringCarolina
Paul
Thanks for weighing in. I see your CL is 2015 model. How many miles towing have you done with the combination if I can ask. Do you find there are any drawbacks?
[/quote]I did probably over 2500 to 3000 miles with it. I even did a drive that was 750 miles (my dealer is far away from where I live) the only drawback I see I guess is that you still have to take in consideration what you bring with you so you don't overload, but I didn't had any problem with it and I brought mostly all what I needed. I am not sure of the real weight of my trailer as I never went to the scale but I think it is withins my limits.
[/quote][p]Hi Paul [/p][p] So do you tow with a WDH and or sway control? If so can ask what you are using?
[/p]
Hi dsinger1 I tow without a WDH or sway control, I just use a regular 2" ball ajusted to the good height so my trailer is level. Althougt Ford have a electronic sway control that is supposed to help you by applying the brakes a little bit on certain wheels to bring the sway under controler but I don't know if it ever came on or not but I have no problem with sway at all. I found that WDH are heavy to my liking and with the limited tow capacity and tongue weight I am not sure it's a good idea, in my opinion I don't need it and I am fine without it, but again I never tried one so I don't know better but I don't plan to get one. I found it's a bit bouncy sometime maybe with a WDH it would be better but it's not too bad.
At the risk of sounding like a salesman for Andersen, the Andersen hitch does a great job controlling bouncing as weIt is also much lighter than other WDH products.ll as sway. When I tow my 21BHS with a Ram 1500 and without a WDH, I tow fine with no sway and some bouncing when going over humps in the road or across uneven segments of concrete highway. The Andersen really absorbs the bouncing, and when heading from Florida to Arizona in September, really controlled sway when driving in very heavy crosswinds and rain. Its strength is not weight distribution, which is fine for me since the Ram really doesn't need it with the 21BHS, but it is strong in sway and bounce control. It is also much lighter than other WDH products.
[quote source="/post/5214/thread" timestamp="1416493462" author="@djsamuel"]At the risk of sounding like a salesman for Andersen, the Andersen hitch does a great job controlling bouncing as weIt is also much lighter than other WDH products.ll as sway. When I tow my 21BHS with a Ram 1500 and without a WDH, I tow fine with no sway and some bouncing when going over humps in the road or across uneven segments of concrete highway. The Andersen really absorbs the bouncing, and when heading from Florida to Arizona in September, really controlled sway when driving in very heavy crosswinds and rain. Its strength is not weight distribution, which is fine for me since the Ram really doesn't need it with the 21BHS, but it is strong in sway and bounce control. It is also much lighter than other WDH products.[/quote]
I looked online and it's 60 lbs not bad, I might look into it next year, I wasn't using one because most I had looked for was over 100lbs and had no problem without it, but do feel the bouce when the road is bumpy, will look at it next year and see if I need it, would be nice if we could try it before buying :)
[quote source="/post/5218/thread" timestamp="1416509198" author="@paul"]
[quote source="/post/5214/thread" timestamp="1416493462" author="@djsamuel"]
At the risk of sounding like a salesman for Andersen, the Andersen hitch does a great job controlling bouncing as weIt is also much lighter than other WDH products.ll as sway. When I tow my 21BHS with a Ram 1500 and without a WDH, I tow fine with no sway and some bouncing when going over humps in the road or across uneven segments of concrete highway. The Andersen really absorbs the bouncing, and when heading from Florida to Arizona in September, really controlled sway when driving in very heavy crosswinds and rain. Its strength is not weight distribution, which is fine for me since the Ram really doesn't need it with the 21BHS, but it is strong in sway and bounce control. It is also much lighter than other WDH products.
[/quote]I looked online and it's 60 lbs not bad, I might look into it next year
[/quote]Like you, I could tow without it; but it does smooth out bumps and adds a safety factor in regards to sway, especially over long trips. During the trip to Arizona I mentioned, I was really glad that I had that hitch. The trailer may not have swayed without it, but it was rock solid for me. In a strong gust, the trailer would slide out slightly and immediately drop back in behind me. I was passed by a Jayco of similar size as my 21BHS swaying all over the road in the same crosswind conditions (being towed by half ton pickup). That made me feel very good about the trailer/WDH combo I had.
I would recommend at least looking into it, watch the video and see how it works. It may not be something you need, but may be something you'll find you'd like to have for additional security; especially with the shorter wheelbase of the Escape. That is impressive how well the Escape seems to handle the trailer.
Quote from: @djsamuel" timestamp="1416509595" source="/post/5219/thread[quote source="/post/5218/thread" timestamp="1416509198" author="@paul"]
I looked online and it's 60 lbs not bad, I might look into it next year
Like you, I could tow without it; but it does smooth out bumps and adds a safety factor in regards to sway, especially over long trips. During the trip to Arizona I mentioned, I was really glad that I had that hitch. The trailer may not have swayed without it, but it was rock solid for me. In a strong gust, the trailer would slide out slightly and immediately drop back in behind me. I was passed by a Jayco of similar size as my 21BHS swaying all over the road in the same crosswind conditions (being towed by half ton pickup). That made me feel very good about the trailer/WDH combo I had.
I would recommend at least looking into it, watch the video and see how it works. It may not be something you need, but may be something you'll find you'd like to have for additional security; especially with the shorter wheelbase of the Escape. That is impressive how well the Escape seems to handle the trailer.[/quote]
Thank you for sharing I will definitly look into it during the winter and take a decision next camping season
For comparison, my EAZ-Lift Elite show as 78.3 lbs on Amazon, without sway control.
12 lbs for the sway control.