We just got back from a short camping trip to a nearby campground - trip report and photos to follow.
But on the way out of town we had a chance to weigh our setup for the first time, for free at our local recycling place.
In the Flex (some rough guesses):
3/4 fuel
Me & Karen
90 lbs of dogs (2)*
45 lbs of tools
Emergency supplies bag - 20 lbs
Clothing 50 lb
Firewood 30 lbs
Misc computer bags, purse, etc. 20 lbs.
Rubber mats - 30 lbs
EAZLift hitch 75 lbs
In the trailer (2014 21BHS w/"XL Living Package"):
All our usual camping gear, food supplies
1/2 fresh water tank
No grey or black water
Propane about 3/4
No bikes
We first drove the entire rig onto the scales, and as described the scale read 10,000 lbs. (apparently measures in 20 lb increments)
Unhooked the trailer, and with the hitch the Flex and contents weighed 5,520 lbs.
So that means "Campy" weighed in at 4,480 lbs.
That's good news, in that the maximum tow weight for the Flex is listed at 4,500 lbs (Whew! Cutting it close!)
Open to any comments. We're already going to look carefully at all the cr*p we carry, with almost a "line item veto" in effect.
The only unknown right now is the tongue weight, and later today I'm going to try to use some levers to get it into the range of our bathroom scale.
*This is what 90 lbs of dogs looks like:
(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5601/15021312783_8bc97bf191.jpg)
I wish they could get comfortable in the trailer!
Of course, The Dog Whisperer has told us dogs must have rules, boundaries and limitations. Right...
the only thing you want to check is if the tongue weight plus the weight added to your TV exceed the GVWR of the Flex. But overall, if it tows well, and the Flex doesn't seem to be straining too much, I wouldn't worry about it.
Pleased to hear the weight of the 21BHs.
So you are at 4480 lbs with a 21BHS imagine this guy he is towing a 28BHS with a Flex like you! He must be overweigth for sure! http://livinlite.proboards.com/thread/282/2013-ford-limited-livin-28bhs
It looks like the GCWR for the flex is 9,622, so your 10,000 figure puts you 378lbs over. It makes sense though since their maximum tow rating is with a minimum of contents in the vehicle (1 person, no cargo). All the stuff you added to the vehicle besides yourself reduces the amount you can tow.
It is interesting that options, food, gear, water and propane add almost a thousand pounds to the listed dry weight of that trailer. There are a couple of other considerations as to towing weight:
As you note the TV loaded weight and the tongue weight should not equal the TV's GVWR. Unfortunately I can't find the Flex's GVWR online. But it should be on your door sill. Your tongue weight needs to be a minimum of 10% of the trailer weight, so 450 lbs.
The combined weight of the trailer and loaded TV should be less than the GCWR of the TV. Again I can't find this data anywhere even on Ford's towing guide for the flex.
Each axle load (front and back) should be less than the load rating for the axle. These should be on your door sill.
My guess is that you are going to be very close to or above one or more of these. You definitely need the WDH and sway control as well for these loads to be safe.
David
Thanks for the comments so far.
Got to run, but as asked for:
(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5614/15456890150_c6c3ec7ddc.jpg)
Assuming a 12% tongue weight, the total weight of the Flex would be 538 lbs (tongue weight) + 5520 lbs Flex (measured).
This brings the total to 6058 lbs, which is just below the GVWR of 6250 lbs.
Looking at it a different way, you can add the tongue weight (538 lbs calculated) to the listing of the payload you have in the Flex (roughly 744 pounds assuming 300 lbs for people and an 18.6 gal fuel tank that's 3/4 full). that totals at 1282 lbs, slightly above the cargo limit of 1160 lbs shown on the placard.
In either case, you're right around the limit. I'd give the first calculation showing you slightly below the GVWR limit since it is based on the actual measured weight of the truck.
If it tows well, I'd just go with it and be sure you don't keep accumulating stuff in the camper.
Love the pictures of your dogs. Maybe they could learn to love the camper someday! LOL
My dogs go straight to the lower bunk in my 21-BHS, so they can lie on their beds and look out their window. That is better than home!
Karen said next time she's going to insist that WE get the bed!
I'm stuck, and need help from an engineering type.
To bring the tongue weight down to the range of my bathroom scale, I used a lever arrangement.
Pivoted a 40" pipe on a cinderblock. Tongue 10" away from the pivot.
At the end of the pipe, I put the scale. Minus about a 5 lb tare weight, it measured 70 lbs. with the tongue weight at the 10" point.
(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5613/15023845384_59a885de49.jpg)
I'm figuring that 10" is 25% of 40", so I should multiply the 70 lbs by 4 to get 280 lbs.
Does that sound right?
Eddie,
Do you ever get close to Cumming? I have a brand new tongue weight scale you are more then welcome to use. I could even meet you 1/2 way I need to get out of the house (LOL) Looking at google map you're about an hour away. So 30-45 minute for 1/2 way meet as long as you buy the coffee :-)
Dave
I think that your rig has too many kluges to get an accurate tongue weight: The pipe is bent, the pipe on the cinder block looks like rest on the side of the block- is that where you measured from?, the pipe is supported over a 4" width on the wooden block on the scale, not a discrete point.
Try an 8' 2x6 on edge to spread the dimensions out so that you get double the accuracy. Use short lengths of 1" pipe, wooden dowel or similar laid crosswise to the 2x6 for each support point. That way you can measure within a 1/4" of where they touch. Be sure that the tongue support is exactly in the middle of the coupler.
Yes, you do have the math right. For your current rig: 10 X TW = 40 X SW, so TW = 40/10 * SW.
But it could easily be off 10-15% as you have it. But even 320 lbs is really light. The TW on my 16TBS is 280 lbs.
David
[font size="3"]Eddie,
You math is correct, but your answer seems a bit light. For example, my 21RBS with no waste water, 2 full propane tanks, 2 sixty+ pound batteries, full WH, camping junk, and 2 bicycles on the rear weighs 525# on the tongue. If yours is like mine the fresh water tank is over the axles and has little effect on tongue weight. The bikes, being on the rear, lessen the tongue weight. A few points:
[ol type="decimal"][li]The accuracy will increase if the ratio is closer to 1:2. Put the tongue exactly in the middle of your bar. Half the weight on the block; half on the scale and easy calc.
[/li][li]The scale should be on a flat, smooth board. Bathroom scales are very sensitive to uneven loading of their supporting surface.[/li][li]The cinder block and scale interface with the bar should be close to knife edges. I take a short (approx. 8") piece of 2x2 lumber and rip it at 45 degrees. This gives me two lengths with triangular cross section like two pieces of angle iron. Place one on the block and one centered on the scale with the bar spanning the two. A 4x4 would be easier than the round bar. [/li][li]Your 280# reading, if correct, should be close the the capacity of the scale by itself. You could get a rough check by lowering the tongue slowly onto the scale. But you number sounds too light.
[/li][/ol]
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This was just my first "quick and dirty" attempt.
And the pipe was not bent to start with!
I'll play with it some more tomorrow and let you know what I find.
This has diagrams and a lot of help.
http://www.etrailer.com/faq-how-to-determine-trailer-tongue-weight.aspx
Good lesson for me to watch the weight of what I add to the load. Maybe I don't need the ping pong table.
[quote timestamp="1414452836" author="@shovelhead" source="/post/4477/thread"]This has diagrams and a lot of help.
http://www.etrailer.com/faq-how-to-determine-trailer-tongue-weight.aspx
[/quote]Cool!
I'm pretty sure I came up with my levered bathroom scale method on my own - great minds and all that!
Interesting that they show their actual tongue weight scale measuring the weight back at the tongue jack pad. I'd think that would show enough more* than the actual weight at the ball to make some small difference.
Tongue weight ideally should be the weight right at the coupler, right?
*More, right? My first instinct was less. But closer to the pivot point (the wheels) the higher the scale would read. Right?
[font size="3"]Your correct, Eddie, but the difference between ball and jack loads is small. Mathematically it's D1F1=D2F2 where D1 and D2 are the distances from the two points to the center of the axles and F1, F2 are the corresponding measures forces. The error in each measurement relative to the other is the ratio of the distances. Since they are very close when measured to the axles you can sleep easy with either. Probably around 10% which is within the margin of variability from trailer loading and incline. Not to worry 8-).
[/font]
Got it!
I'm about to go play.
Thinking about it, I will need to either do it with the hitch and trunnions (they ain't exactly light!) near the coupler, or add their weight to my results to get the TOTAL tongue weight.
Right?
We backed into our TT tongue weight by weighing complete rig, TV/TT on the local landfill scales and pulling forward only weighing the TT axle. Pulled off the scales, disconnected the TT and weighed only TV. Subtracted TV weight from complete rig weight to get TT weight & subtracted TT axle weight from TT weight to get tongue weight.
A bottle jack with PSI gauge can be used when pressure is measured across piston surface area.
Here's how one guy did it & posted about it:
http://www.shoptalkforums.com/viewtopic.php?t=125881
[font size="3"]EDDIE,
With the trunnions disconnected from the TT you do add the hitch and trunnions to the measured TW for purposes of figuring the load on the TV, but not for figuring the percentage of TT weight on the TT tongue. The hitch and trunnions are, in effect, part of the TV and do not count as part of the TT or its TW. However, when you hook up the trunnions everything becomes fuzzy. The function of the WDH is to move part or all of the TW onto the TT axles and TV front axle. But rest easy. You may be cutting it too fine. I would weigh the stand alone trailer and measure the TW without the hitch/trunnions and use those numbers for your stability evaluation.
BILL,
Your method is correct if you measured the TT axle weight without a WDH connected. You don't say if you're using WDH. If you are, see above. And TNX for the bottle jack link. Never heard/thought of that.[/font]
[quote source="/post/4516/thread" timestamp="1414525069" author="@charliem"][font size="3"]BILL,
Your method is correct if you measured the TT axle weight without a WDH connected. You don't say if you're using WDH. If you are, see above. And TNX for the bottle jack link. Never heard/thought of that.[/font]
[/quote]Charlie,
Good point on the WDH
I don't use WDH with our rig.
TT 1940lbs
TT Axle 1640lbs
Tongue 300lbs
The guys in our shop used to use a bottle jack to set railroad hy-rail (Fairmont) car/pickup vehicle wheel weight on the rail with a bottle jack. If I remember correctly, it was around 450lbs per hy-rail wheel on the track.
I may have a dilemma.
I used a landscape timber, so:
(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5605/15653197395_227f25f575.jpg)
(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5600/15653199605_30b671db49.jpg)Next step may be to find a proper scale to confirm my readings. Thanks for the offer in Cumming, but I'm pretty sure I can find one closer.
[font size="3"]Eddie,
I don't see anything wrong with you measurements, but I am surprised at the results. 720# seems very heavy unless you have a lot of stuff up forward on the trailer. How many batteries and gas bottles? Is the trailer level when you're measuring? I assume the stabilizing jacks in the picture are not in contact with the ground? Did Karen[/font] [font size="3"]stow your motorcycle up front in the trailer?? :D
[/font][font size="3"]
The 440# number from LL is usually without batteries and only one empty gas bottle. If the Flex tows OK with the WDH engaged I'd only be concerned with the total combined weight rating (GCWR), and the rear axle rating (GAWR). GCWR is the sum of TT and TV weights you've already measured; the actual weight on the rear axle you'll have to measure at a truck scale.
[/font]
So one way gives you 280 lbs and another gives you 720 lbs. Hmm, something isn't working here. As another poster indicated, if you have a friendly scale nearby, weigh the TV(only) with the trailer connected- roll up to the scale with the trailer wheels off of it, and then weigh the TV with it not connected and subtract to get a fairly close reading.
I would suspect that you are in the neighborhood of 500 lbs.
David
[font size="3"]Eddie,
Does the Flex have a Unibody or a true truck type frame? The WDH puts a lot of torque on the hitch receiver that gets transferred to the "frame". That's one of the things that limits the TW rating.
[/font]
[quote source="/post/4522/thread" timestamp="1414532048" author="@david"]So one way gives you 280 lbs and another gives you 720 lbs. Hmm, something isn't working here. As another poster indicated, if you have a friendly scale nearby, weigh the TV(only) with the trailer connected- roll up to the scale with the trailer wheels off of it, and then weigh the TV with it not connected and subtract to get a fairly close reading.
I would suspect that you are in the neighborhood of 500 lbs.
David[/quote][font size="3"]Good suggestion if you take the readings without the WDH engaged. I also would expect around 500#. Mine comes in at 525#.
[/font]
Going through the stuff we carry with a line item veto:
(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3947/15475401007_f0698d4d80_c.jpg)
Well, it's a start!
Now Karen has to do the same things with our housewares.
I grok.
Quote from: @leslie" timestamp="1414615796" source="/post/4566/threadI grok.
Still agonizing over whether I can make do with less than 650 tywraps! :P
Our mantra is, "There's always WalMart!"
[quote source="/post/4565/thread" timestamp="1414615542" author="@fasteddieb"]Going through the stuff we carry with a line item veto:
Well, it's a start!
Now Karen has to do the same things with our housewares.[/quote][font size="3"]Eddie,
I don't see anything very heavy yet. I think you're going to have to give up the 3 ft. prop wrench, the 6 ft. Hi-Lift jack, the 50 gallons of Av Gas, and the 5 HP compressor :'(. How're your tongue weight measurements coming?
[/font]
We really don't have anything that heavy.
Water filter, hose, misc sewer supplies, two aluminum chairs and a small camping table - just not a whole lot in the front passthrough.
Stock 12v battery and 2 propane tanks and the WDH hardware.
Like I said, next thing is to look at bedding and housewares and the like, but that just does not seem that heavy either.
Still working on a real scale - just queried my Experimental Aircraft Ass'n buddies to see if anyone has a scale in that range.
20 lbs here + 20 lbs there = too much stuff before you know it
Found an aircraft weighing scale - friend of mine just a few hangars down.
May try to arrange borrowing it on Friday.
To be continued...
OK, I borrowed the scale - its a digital scale designed to weigh cars but bought to weigh planes.
I leveled it and zero'd it and set it up thusly:
(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5598/15057185963_26819ab30f_z.jpg)
(https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8657/15057185303_0275f27ffe_z.jpg)I'll let you know what he says.
I am looking at putting some of the heavier items in the shower for transport. This is not as convenient as in the outside access, but it will definitely lower the tongue weight. The heaviest items are what I need for hitching.
[p]15 or maybe 20 years ago I purchased what I thought to be a reasonably lightweight 5th wheel, corrugated aluminum, no slide out, etc. I had a 1/2 ton pickup and all the weights and ratings were well in spec. I think the truck had a 3.18 diff. which gave me pretty good mileage on both flat ground and in the hills. When I took it out west, in the mountains, I burnt the paint or whatever it was coated with, off of the differential. I then realized that the truck didn't have a big enough a** or the power to go through these mountains. I was only at 6 or 7 thousand feet, tops. After I returned home I purchased a 3/4 ton stump puller. The next time I went out west there were no issues at all except now I was getting 7 MPG. All my numbers said I was golden, but it was not so! I hope you'll be able to work it out. James [/p]
On our trip out west last month someone pulled out in front of us and had to make an emergency stop. Just got stopped "under control" in time and was happy our TT was only 2000lbs. The tow capacity of our TV is 6300lbs. If we would have been towing a TT at our maximum capacity, I'm confident we would have been involved in a accident. I'm conservative too and like to have additional safety margin for unexpected situations. If we purchase a 21 BHS, will probably purchase a Toyota Tundra 5.7L or Dodge Ram 1500. The 21BHS is within the limits of our Nissan 4.0L Frontier, but I want a larger safety margin.
Hope you can get it straightened out!
I would not exceed any of the 4 main weight limits in towing: 1) tongue weight, 2) total trailer weight (trailer plus cargo), 3) total tow vehicle weight (vehicle, plus cargo, plus tongue weight), or 4) total weight of everything going down the road. Each limit is there for a specific reason and if you exceed even one your safety and the safety of others on the road is compromised, particularly in an emergency.
Quote from: @fasteddieb" source="/post/4682/thread" timestamp="1414793141if there's a way to beef up my Class III hitch to carry the extra weight.
I don't think the hitch is the issue. The limiting factor is most likely the frame (or lack thereof). Tongue weight like that needs to be transferred with the WDH and that kind of torque will eventually bend the sheet metal that makes up the unibody.
Ummm . . . your rear stabilizers aren't down are they? If they're on the ground, you're taking weight off the axles and putting it onto the tongue. Just a WAG.
[quote source="/post/4778/thread" timestamp="1415138044" author="@icebear"]Ummm . . . your rear stabilizers aren't down are they? If they're on the ground, you're taking weight off the axles and putting it onto the tongue. Just a WAG.[/quote]If only...
...I cranked them up about an inch off the cinderblocks they rest on.
And the whole rig is level.
It just looks like the tongue is MUCH heavier than the 440 stated weight, even with minimal gear.
Drat.
Just looked at the specs on the Toyota Sequoia - over 900 lb tongue weight capacity and over 7,000 lbs total. Only fly in the ointment? Fairly poor mileage - 13 city and 17-18 highway. The Flex does much better, even with its 365 hp!
Quote from: @fasteddieb" source="/post/4784/thread" timestamp="1415153057Only fly in the ointment? Fairly poor mileage - 13 city and 17-18 highway. The Flex does much better, even with its 365 hp!
Once you're towing we're all getting 11-12. Our plan is to get a small electric car for trips in town and use the Sequoia for road trips and towing. In the meantime we average about 16.5 with a mix of city and rural driving.
[font face="comic sans ms" size="3"]I'm very happy with my latest TV, it's rated at 16/22 and I can get 21 OTR if I go easy on it. I recently took the TT to Florida and got a solid 12 MPG, using the cruse control @ 70 MPH. I could probably squeeze out 1 or 2 more MPG if I would slow down just a little. [/font]
[quote source="/post/4791/thread" timestamp="1415172823" author="@james"][font face="comic sans ms" size="3"]I'm very happy with my latest TV, it's rated at 16/22 and I can get 21 OTR if I go easy on it. I recently took the TT to Florida and got a solid 12 MPG, using the cruse control @ 70 MPH. I could probably squeeze out 1 or 2 more MPG if I would slow down just a little. [/font][/quote]James has a Silverado 1500. I averaged 11+ MPG over 5,000 from Florida to Arizona and Utah with my Ram 1500 (4.7L V8). You could do even better with something like a Ram 1500 diesel (3.0L). I know people that tow larger TTs and get about 20MPG with that, and it tows great since it is a diesel. When it comes to towing, there is not as much of a mileage hit with a pickup versus other tow vehicles. The camper is a huge wind drag.
[quote source="/post/4792/thread" author="@djsamuel" timestamp="1415185938"][quote source="/post/4791/thread" author="@james" timestamp="1415172823"][font face="comic sans ms" size="3"]I'm very happy with my latest TV, it's rated at 16/22 and I can get 21 OTR if I go easy on it. I recently took the TT to Florida and got a solid 12 MPG, using the cruse control @ 70 MPH. I could probably squeeze out 1 or 2 more MPG if I would slow down just a little. [/font][/quote]James has a Silverado 1500. I averaged 11+ MPG over 5,000 from Florida to Arizona and Utah with my Ram 1500 (4.7L V8). You could do even better with something like a Ram 1500 diesel (3.0L). I know people that tow larger TTs and get about 20MPG with that, and it tows great since it is a diesel. When it comes to towing, there is not as much of a mileage hit with a pickup versus other tow vehicles. The camper is a huge wind drag.[/quote]Our 2013 Nissan 4.0L auto tranny Crew cab gets 25MPG on the highway @ 65MPH in flat lands. Our 2003 2.4L 4 cylinder 5 speed Tacoma gets 29MPG on the highway @ 60MPH. The Tacoma gets 16MPG towing the CampLite 11 up @ 55MPH. The Frontier gets 15MPG towing the CampLite 11 @ 55MPH. Both MPG results in SC flat lands. The Tacoma does not have enough power "for me" towing in the mountains, but the Frontier tows great in the mountains with 120 additional HP or over 40% more power than our Tacoma!
When we purchased the CampLite our TV was a 1987 Toyota "pickup" with 2.4L 22R engine and manual transmission. We traded in a 1100lb Chalet A-frame for the CampLite 11. The Toyota got 21MPG @ 55MPH towing the Chalet. While towing the 1600lb CampLite 11 home, never checked fuel economy, but it did not have enough power towing the higher profile CampLite 11 compared to the Chalet on the interstate. Had 5 people in line to buy the 1987 Toyota pickup for a couple years and the first one in line bought it with only 250,000 miles.
Quote from: @djsamuel" source="/post/4792/thread" timestamp="1415185938You could do even better with something like a Ram 1500 diesel (3.0L). I know people that tow larger TTs and get about 20MPG with that, and it tows great since it is a diesel. When it comes to towing, there is not as much of a mileage hit with a pickup versus other tow vehicles.
We noticed on our last trip that diesel was 80 cents+ more than regular gas. Don't forget the cost of the AdBlue either... you'd have to get some pretty phenominal gas mileage to make that cost effective especially when you consider that you have to make up the additional cost of the vehicle first. The diesel adds $3k to the price of the truck, if you're getting 20MPG while towing at $4/gal that's $0.2/mile. My truck gets 12MPG while towing at $3/gal which is $0.25/mile. So you're saving $0.05/mile with the diesel. That means you'd have to drive 60,000 miles just to make up the additional cost of the engine itself.
[quote source="/post/4830/thread" timestamp="1415287705" author="@tinkeringtechie"][quote source="/post/4792/thread" timestamp="1415185938" author="@djsamuel"]You could do even better with something like a Ram 1500 diesel (3.0L). I know people that tow larger TTs and get about 20MPG with that, and it tows great since it is a diesel. When it comes to towing, there is not as much of a mileage hit with a pickup versus other tow vehicles.[/quote]We noticed on our last trip that diesel was 80 cents+ more than regular gas. Don't forget the cost of the AdBlue either... you'd have to get some pretty phenominal gas mileage to make that cost effective especially when you consider that you have to make up the additional cost of the vehicle first. The diesel adds $3k to the price of the truck, if you're getting 20MPG while towing at $4/gal that's $0.2/mile. My truck gets 12MPG while towing at $3/gal which is $0.25/mile. So you're saving $0.05/mile with the diesel. That means you'd have to drive 60,000 miles just to make up the additional cost of the engine itself.[/quote]Very true. If you look at it from a purely monetary standpoint, it is difficult to justify. I wouldn't mind one though due to the higher torque.
In my area the difference between regular gas and diesel is 40-50 cents per gallon.
I looked at the Jeep Cherokee when we bought our Pathfinder last year. The press had reported the availability of a diesel (presumably the same one that came out in the Ram recently) in the Cherokee six months earlier. But the dealer said that they did not expect to get them for another year. Wow, Chrysler was touting an engine a year and a half before it was available to the public. And making samples available for test drives, well maybe. Edmunds, Motor Trend, etc all tested and reported on them. Or did they do what we called in college a "dry lab"???
I could see that the price differential would be huge when it finally came to our shores, much more than $3,000 because the manufacturers always pile up expensive, unwanted options for a popular new model. Or maybe the delay was due to problems with the engine, who knows. So the engine is now available for the Ram and presumably for the Cherokee. I would be curious what the real price difference is for the Ram.
Having said all of the above negative stuff, I am a big fan of diesels. We have had one in the last seven boats that we have owned and one gasser. The gasser drank fuel. I wish that diesls could be made at a reasonable cost for cars and trucks though.
The fuel mileage benefit is real and 20 MPG towing with a Ram diesel vs 12-13 MPG with an equivalent gasser is in the ball park. And the driving feel while towing a trailer is phenomenal due to the low end torque of the diesel.
But I am happy with the 3.5 liter, 260 hp gasser in my Pathfinder. The CVT makes up for some of its peaky torque.
David
The diesel Cherokee is only slated for Europe for the time being. Many publications and dealers got that mixed up with the impending release of the 3.0L diesel for Grand Cherokee and Ram.
I have an MDX with a 5000lb tow and I've been planning on ordering the 21bhs. I don't want to go over weight on the tougue and stuff and it sounds like its almost impossible to keep it under 500 (which is my max). Could it be the water tanks?
[quote source="/post/4877/thread" author="@jessinwa" timestamp="1415336767"]I have an MDX with a 5000lb tow and I've been planning on ordering the 21bhs. I don't want to go over weight on the tougue and stuff and it sounds like its almost impossible to keep it under 500 (which is my max). Could it be the water tanks? [/quote]Pilots have to learn about weight and balance.
The basic formula is, Weight x Arm = Moment.
IOW, the effective "weight" of something is affected by its distance from the pivot point.
For example, 20 gals of water weighs about 160 lbs.
If it was carried right on the tongue that would increase the tongue weight by about 160 lbs.
But if it was half way back to the axles, it would only increase tongue weight by 80 lbs.
If it was right over or under the axles it would have no effect.
This also leads to the conclusion that all weight aft of the axle decreases tongue weight.
Point of all this is that I think the water is carried very close to the axles, so the effect of that weight is minimized.
[quote timestamp="1415336767" author="@jessinwa" source="/post/4877/thread"]I have an MDX with a 5000lb tow and I've been planning on ordering the 21bhs. I don't want to go over weight on the tougue and stuff and it sounds like its almost impossible to keep it under 500 (which is my max). Could it be the water tanks? [/quote][font size="3"]Unfortunately the short answer is no. The 21BHS is now advertised at TW=440#. That's without any propane, battery, water, stuff. A single group 24 battery and 20# of propane add 66# right on the tongue so you're at your limit. Then you add camping supplies and personal stuff, the optional microwave, and possibly some other factory options and you're way over 500#. The fresh water tank is directly over the axles so contributes very little to TW. The 6 gallons in the water heater and the two waste tanks are behind the axles, thereby subtracting from TW, but their effects are minimal due to their shorter distance behind the axles. And remember, the TW rating on your vehicle assumes nothing in the car except fuel and a driver. Adding passengers and baggage subtracts from the tongue weight rating. The common experience from 21BHS/RBS owners seems to be well in excess of 500# tending upwards of 600#.
[/font]
I did just look and on my 21BHS the fresh water tank is directly over the axles, so it would have essentially no effect on tongue weight.
While everyone is pondering tongue weight and their tow vehicle, the weight of the ball hitch needs to also be considered, even though it isn't included on the tongue weight. Mine is heavy, I guess about 50 lbs added to the weight on the tow vehicle. I'll bet charliem's ball hitch will weigh even more now that he is considering going to a larger ball hitch.
[quote source="/post/4890/thread" timestamp="1415390091" author="@leslie"]I'll bet charliem's ball hitch will weigh even more now that he is considering going to a larger ball hitch.[/quote][font size="3"]Not so much, Leslie. The new coupler and ball together add less than 4 pounds. Insignificant overall.
[/font]
I think she's talking about the weight of an entire weight distribution setup, which is substantial - 39 lbs in my case with the EAZLift Elite.
Which is why my first weighing had the hitch resting on the tongue for the initial 625 lb reading.
[font size="3"]She was referring to both the total and my additions. The total is a bunch; the additions are insignificant. BTW, I have no idea how John(icq102) is towing a 28BHS with a Flex! He must have ordered the Helium option from LL :P.
[/font]
Well now I am confused. When you talk tongue weight, aren't you including WDH and/or anti-sway? I thought it did.
Weight on the back of the tow vehicle = weight of the ball hitch + tongue weight, in which I was including WDH
The weight that we add on the back of the tow vehicle needs to be considered when looking at the carrying capacity of the tow vehicle, not to mention the rear axle capacity.
Us newbies are easily confused.
[font size="3"]You are correct, Leslie. You add all the weights together when comparing to your TV tongue weight rating. However, for the purpose of computing TW as a percentage of total trailer weight for sway evaluation, the part of the WDH that remains on the TV is not counted as part of the tongue weight or part of the trailer weight. It becomes part of the TV weight, and does count against the GCWR. Confused? Don't worry. It's a small and mostly insignificant distinction. Just for us techies ;).
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[quote source="/post/4895/thread" timestamp="1415394482" author="@charliem"][font size="3"]She was referring to both the total and my additions. The total is a bunch; the additions are insignificant. BTW, I have no idea how John(icq102) is towing a 28BHS with a Flex! He must have ordered the Helium option from LL :P.
[/font][/quote]We don't hear from him anymore I wonder if he got is rig weighted
[quote source="/post/4898/thread" timestamp="1415402567" author="@paul"][quote source="/post/4895/thread" timestamp="1415394482" author="@charliem"][font size="3"]She was referring to both the total and my additions. The total is a bunch; the additions are insignificant. BTW, I have no idea how John(icq102) is towing a 28BHS with a Flex! He must have ordered the Helium option from LL :P.
[/font][/quote]We don't hear from him anymore I wonder if he got is rig weighted
[/quote][p]Probably should check the crash reports. He'll show up sooner or later.[/p][p]
[/p]
[quote source="/post/4895/thread" timestamp="1415394482" author="@charliem"][font size="3"]BTW, I have no idea how John(icq102) is towing a 28BHS with a Flex! He must have ordered the Helium option from LL :P.
[/font][/quote]Funny, just yesterday I mentioned to Karen we could always just fill the pass-through storage with helium balloons!
Spoke with Andy at CanAm RV this morning.
He said the tongue weights I'm getting are appropriate to the trailer weight and within the abilities of the Flex.
He did recommend reinforcing the factory hitch. He said they've done a whole bunch of Flex's, and it's fairly straightforward, but it helps to have experience.
Anyway, contemplating a trip up to see him. Have to go to Indiana soon, so it's not that much farther!
Road trip!!!
Where in Indiana are you going?
Peru.
Quote from: @fasteddieb" source="/post/4976/thread" timestamp="1415668678Spoke with Andy at CanAm RV this morning.
He said the tongue weights I'm getting are appropriate to the trailer weight and within the abilities of the Flex.
He did recommend reinforcing the factory hitch. He said they've done a whole bunch of Flex's, and it's fairly straightforward, but it helps to have experience.
If it's straightforward then why didn't Ford sell it that way? Adding some reinforcement to gain a couple hundred pounds of tongue weight capacity seems like a no-brainer for Ford.
[font size="3"]Eddie,
I'm still surprised at the high weights you're getting, but it's not beyond reason for a TT of this size, just beyond expectation for one that began at 3500# dry. I can't speak directly to the Flex, but I'm suspicious. Is it unibody? While you're at CanAm you might show Andy the thread on the bent coupler and see what he suggests. You will still need the WDH and should look at beefing up the coupler. I really like the way mine came out. [/font]
Andy writes for RVLife magazine.
From the CanAm site there's links to his column, "Hitch Hints".
I found a relevant one called "Hitching Your Wagon".
In part:
The Flex and the V/6 Charger have almost identical towing capability. The Charger has a little longer wheelbase and a little more overhang so they are about equal there. Both have independent suspension all around and pretty good tire and wheel combinations. The Charger benefits from a lower centre of gravity and less aerodynamic and drivetrain drag, but the Flex has 6 speeds as opposed to 5. Bottom line - the towing capability is almost identical. As for interior space there is no contest.
The Flex is a very safe and stable tow vehicle, it is much better than many vehicles with considerably higher tow ratings. It has two limiting factors. The first limiting factor is the factory hitch receiver. Although the Flex has a 4500 lb. tow rating, many trailers in that weight class will be too much for the standard receiver. This hitch is fastened to the extreme ends of the subframe. The receiver will just twist instead of properly transferring weight to the front wheels. Fortunately, it is one of the easiest vehicles to strengthen the hitch on. The hitch receiver tube just needs to be extended above the spare tire to the structure for the rear suspension. Then it can handle substantial hitch weights without a problem. I believe there is a shop in Edmonton capable of doing this modification.
The Flex also has a great engine. The 3.5 litre produces plenty of power and it is mated to the same 6-speed automatic that is used in the Buick Enclave etc. Where it is limited is in overcoming aerodynamic drag. The lower gears will easily pull weight over hills or get weight moving, but you need to be able to shift up to a taller gear and slow the engine down when cruising at highway speed. When you are looking for a larger trailer, do not be overly concerned about its weight or length - what you want to find is the most aerodynamic shape and the lowest profile that suits your needs. I would also suggest that you try towing any trailer you select before you finalize the purchase.
Feel free to send any follow up questions and thanks for writing.
Andy
Quote from: @fasteddieb" source="/post/4987/thread" timestamp="1415678358Andy writes for RVLife magazine.
From the CanAm site there's links to his column, "Hitch Hints".
I found a relevant one called "Hitching Your Wagon".
In part:
what you want to find is the most aerodynamic shape and the lowest profile that suits your needs. I would also suggest that you try towing any trailer you select before you finalize the purchase.
Feel free to send any follow up questions and thanks for writing.
Andy
The Camplite line has a lower profile than the vast majority of hard-sided travel trailers, yet there is plenty of head room inside. This was a major factor for us in deciding to buy the Camplite. Using a Jeep Grand Cherokee rather than one of the larger pickups as a tow vehicle, we knew that wind resistance would be greater for us.
[quote timestamp="1415678358" source="/post/4987/thread" author="@fasteddieb"]Andy writes for RVLife magazine.
From the CanAm site there's links to his column, "Hitch Hints".
I found a relevant one called "Hitching Your Wagon".
In part:
The Flex and the V/6 Charger have almost identical towing capability. The Charger has a little longer wheelbase and a little more overhang so they are about equal there. Both have independent suspension all around and pretty good tire and wheel combinations. The Charger benefits from a lower centre of gravity and less aerodynamic and drivetrain drag, but the Flex has 6 speeds as opposed to 5. Bottom line - the towing capability is almost identical. As for interior space there is no contest.
The Flex is a very safe and stable tow vehicle, it is much better than many vehicles with considerably higher tow ratings. It has two limiting factors. The first limiting factor is the factory hitch receiver. Although the Flex has a 4500 lb. tow rating, many trailers in that weight class will be too much for the standard receiver. This hitch is fastened to the extreme ends of the subframe. The receiver will just twist instead of properly transferring weight to the front wheels. Fortunately, it is one of the easiest vehicles to strengthen the hitch on. The hitch receiver tube just needs to be extended above the spare tire to the structure for the rear suspension. Then it can handle substantial hitch weights without a problem. I believe there is a shop in Edmonton capable of doing this modification.
The Flex also has a great engine. The 3.5 litre produces plenty of power and it is mated to the same 6-speed automatic that is used in the Buick Enclave etc. Where it is limited is in overcoming aerodynamic drag. The lower gears will easily pull weight over hills or get weight moving, but you need to be able to shift up to a taller gear and slow the engine down when cruising at highway speed. When you are looking for a larger trailer, do not be overly concerned about its weight or length - what you want to find is the most aerodynamic shape and the lowest profile that suits your needs. I would also suggest that you try towing any trailer you select before you finalize the purchase.
Feel free to send any follow up questions and thanks for writing.
Andy
[/quote]I would talk to your insurance agent before going too far down this path. If an accident happened on a modified overweight vehicle they might not cover the claim. Better to find out now than after an accident.
[quote timestamp="1415749178" source="/post/5002/thread" author="@tinkeringtechie"]
Quote from: @fasteddieb" source="/post/4987/thread" timestamp="1415678358
[/quote]Not to worry. Your insurance policy cannot decline coverage for a loss just because you do something stupid. I don't mean to address the issue of whether this practice may be stupid. I'm only addressing the insurance coverage issue. The ONLY reasons for which they can decline coverage for a loss that would otherwise be covered are listed in your policy.
Quote from: @icebear" source="/post/5014/thread" timestamp="1415759665[quote source="/post/5002/thread" timestamp="1415749178" author="@tinkeringtechie"]
Not to worry. Your insurance policy cannot decline coverage for a loss just because you do something stupid. I don't mean to address the issue of whether this practice may be stupid. I'm only addressing the insurance coverage issue. The ONLY reasons for which they can decline coverage for a loss that would otherwise be covered are listed in your policy. [/quote]
I think "avoidable accidents" are one of the top reasons claims get denied. It wouldn't hurt to ask.
Thanks for the head's up re: insurance coverage.
Pretty far from my mind as a concern.
I do think insurance usually covers all sorts of reckless behavior - overloaded vehicles, bald tires, worn brakes, speeding - even DUI!
I guess there'd be a liability concern in a lawsuit exceeding one's liability limits, but again I don't tend to spend a lot of time worrying about this sort of thing.
Anyway, still trying to assess the feasibility of a road trip to Canada! Weather will start to be a consideration soon.
Weather in Chicago today - wind chill made it feel like 15 outside. My beagle was shivering on the afternoon walk. North of here - snow. You notice snow is a four-letter word.
Update...
in Peru, IN now, enroute to CanAm RV in London, Ontario, sans trailer.
We have an appointment Tuesday to get the receiver of the Flex reinforced.
I'll see if it's possible to get before/after photos.
We really do appreciate all the cautions, and have taken them to heart. And though we are both pretty conservative, we think with this mod the Flex may be capable of safely towing our 21BHS.
"May be" being the operative words, of course! :P
Before:
(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7487/15935493691_fa37c3a9f1.jpg)
After:
(https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8637/15750008238_1f65780ca0.jpg)
The kind of thing they specialize in:
(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7512/15751691397_90f76e6925.jpg)
And a pretty cool front desk!
(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7553/15936799312_0d585ebf87.jpg)
Dang! Must be pretty cold in that showroom.
[quote source="/post/5388/thread" timestamp="1417613522" author="@fasteddieb"]After:
(https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8637/15750008238_1f65780ca0.jpg)Looks like a lever to keep the receiver from twisting. Like a spring bar for the other side of the weight distribution system. Was that the intention? Looks too long to support weight directly.
I don't think that hitch modification will do much for absolute vertical load absent a WDH. But as Tinkeringtechie noted, it will counteract the torque that a WDH generates. A WDH puts a vertical torque (upward vertical force on an aft moment arm) on the hitch and that square tubular member transfers the torque forward nicely.
Without it, the torque of a WDH would just twist that hitch mount upwards and might bend it. So it looks like a good mod!!!
But handling hitch weight is not the only criteria that a TV has to meet. The loads on the front and back suspension must be ok- tire loading and suspension compliance. Also don't forget the engine. Many TVs are limited in the weight that they can haul to keep the engine from being stressed unreasonably.
To put it into perspective, my Suzuki 60 hp motorcycle could pull my 16TBS at 60 mph. It might take a long time to get there ;-). But if you pull that much hp from a 650 cc engine (at wide open throttle) it isn't going to last very long.
TV manufacturer's set tow weight values with several criteria in mind not necessarily in this order: 1) to be safe, 2)to limit warranty claims from TV/trailer owners and 3)to give the TV owner a reasonable vehicle life irrespective of warranty issues. You can exceed trailer weight loadings if you are willing to live with reduced engine life but the other issues- tire and suspension loading and hitch weight limits have more immediate consequences.
This modification only deals with one of those issues.
David
[quote source="/post/5392/thread" timestamp="1417645875" author="@tinkeringtechie"][quote source="/post/5388/thread" timestamp="1417613522" author="@fasteddieb"]After:
(https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8637/15750008238_1f65780ca0.jpg)