Hello,
I'm currently shopping for a new tow vehicle.
I'm looking for a Highlander (5000# towing capacity) and probably buying a CL21BHS...
I would like to avoid buying a truck only to do camping....
I know the GVWR of the CL21BHS is at the top of the capacity of the highlander.
I would like to know if any of you had an experience towing a camplite with a Highlander (or Pilot or pathfinder)
Do you think i would be near the limit of my TV?
Thanks!
You will feel more comfortable with a pickup truck with a 21 foot trailer, also it is really convenient to pack your stuff in a truck bed. I was using a Ford Escape to tow my 13QBB, it was doing fine but I felt I was pushing the limit and had problems fitting my stuff in the Ford Escape that's why I switched to a Ford F150. You should also take into consideration that a travel trailer have a high front area that drag into the winds and often SUV are rated with a low square foot frontal area limit, in the case of my Escape it was 30 foot sq. So I was exceeding that limit with my 13QBB and Ford Escape, which is another reason why I switched to a F150. If you are in the market for a new TV you are better buying a truck now than buying a SUV a regret it later and have to switch to a truck like me. Most SUV are done to tow boat, popup camper or utility trailer that has a low frontal area not a travel trailer
There have been several threads discussing towing a 21 with that kind of TV. Even though the trailer gross weight will probably be within limits, all of those TVs have a 500 lb tongue weight limit and the 21 will be 600 lbs or more.
You can beef up the suspension with air bags and reinforce the hitch attachments like fasteddie did, but that would not be the best solution. I would look at an SUV with at least a 6,000 lb tow limit and a tongue weight of 650 lbs. Even then you will need a WDH.
One of these should work better: Chevy/GM Tahoe/Surburban/Yukon; Dodge Durango; Ford Expedition; Jeep Grand Cherokee; Toyoto Sequoia;
David
and not fer nothing the gas mileage on a F-150 pickup is about the same as the Highlander.
Jeanbenjaminl- Sorry in advance for the long response. Like you, we did not want to buy a pickup truck just for the purposes of towing our 21BHS. We too looked at SUV's like the Highlander and 4-Runner, but the towing capacity just isn't there and the tongue weight limits will get you as well. You don't want to be right at your vehicle's towing capacity as you're pulling out of the driveway fully loaded. Typically you want to be at no more than 80% of your vehicle's towing capacity, just to give yourself a little cushion. Also, those vehicles are not available with a V-8 engine, which we really wanted for additional towing capacity, especially if you're ever going to be going over high mountain ranges like the Rockies (which we plan to do one of these years). Now there are plenty of larger SUV's that offer a V-8 engine, such as a Chevy Tahoe, GMC Yukon, Ford Expedition, and the Toyota Sequoia, but all of those vehicles are fairly large, tough to get in and out of parking spots (or even your garage), and are also very expensive. We wanted an SUV that wasn't quite as large as those, but still with a V-8 engine. After a long and exhaustive search we didn't find any, other than the Jeep Grand Cherokee, which we bought. Let me tell you, we absolutely LOVE the Grand Cherokee. You don't necessarily need to get the optional V-8 engine (if you're not planning on going over mountains), but if you don't, then I think the towing capacity is going to be back down around 5500 lbs (our V-8 has towing capacity of 7,200 lbs which gives us a nice extra cushion and it's an absolute beast as far as accelerating with a fully loaded trailer on back, even when going uphill). Either way, regardless of which size engine you select, be sure that you get the optional trailer towing package. Besides the trailer hitch and all the necessary lighting connections, the towing package gives you a separate radiator for the transmission fluid (which keeps that nice and cool when towing). Also be sure that you get the automatic leveling system (that might be part of the towing package but I'm not sure). You definitely would need that as well and it's the cat's meow! Through the use of air bags, it automatically levels-out the Jeep's suspension after you hitch up the trailer (pumps more air in the rear bags to raise up the back end). It's really neat and it works very well. With the V-8 engine, towing package and automatic suspension leveling system, the Jeep Grand Cherokee tows our fully loaded 21BHS like a champ. It is reasonably priced, has a nice interior with a lot of luxuries, and has a great overall ride feel (whether towing or not). It's fun to drive and looks great. We did get the Andersen WDH system as well, which also helps and provides nice sway control as well. All up, it would do a great job for you as well and I think you'd really like it. We got the Overland model, as it was about the same price as the Limited once you loaded up the Limited with the towing package and automatic leveling system, plus with the Overland you get ventilated seats (really nice!) and a few other options that the Limited doesn't have. Also, be sure to get the 4-wheel drive.
I agree with gbpack about a Jeep Grand Cherokee. We towed our 21 BHS from the Midwest to the Pacific Northwest with no problems. We have the 3.9L V-8 engine. We weighed our 21 BHS, and took out enough stuff to get our weight down to 4300 lbs with empty tanks. I am thinking about putting some stuff back.
The tow capacity of my JGC is 6,500 lbs.
We pull our 21 bhs with a 2014 pathfinder. We are looking at trading soon for something that pulls more than 5000lbs. It pulls fine but doesn't have the power it needs to pull loose gravel hills coming out of campgrounds. You know you are at peak pulling most of the time. Like the gas mileage for everyday use with pathfinder so contemplation is to trade when we will camp a few weeks a year and do normal no pull driving the rest of the year. We also own a highlander. Get something that will pull over 6000 to enjoy towing a wonderful camper! We love our 21bhs!
[quote source="/post/23371/thread" author="@leslie" timestamp="1469503034"]I agree with gbpack about a Jeep Grand Cherokee. We towed our 21 BHS from the Midwest to the Pacific Northwest with no problems. We have the 3.9L V-8 engine. We weighed our 21 BHS, and took out enough stuff to get our weight down to 4300 lbs with empty tanks. I am thinking about putting some stuff back.
The tow capacity of my JGC is 6,500 lbs.[/quote]I didn't know Jeep had a 3.9L V8 engine. What year is your JGC?
2014 JGC
JGC had a 3.6L V6 in 2014. That's a great engine for towing, especially when paired with the Jeep auto-manual transmission. I enjoyed your stories of how great the JGC-21BHS combo did crossing the divide on the way west.
I special-ordered my Jeep, and the 3.9L is what they told me I got, with the paddles and the towing package. I would prefer a stick shift, but that is very difficult to get.
Leslie - No offense, but I think you have a V-6. I don't think FCA ever offered a V-8 under 5 liters, but I could be wrong. Check under the hood. If it is a V-8 then it will say so (in big writing) on top of the manifold.
[quote source="/post/23383/thread" timestamp="1469529297" author="@gbpack"]Leslie - No offense, but I think you have a V-6. I don't think FCA ever offered a V-8 under 5 liters, but I could be wrong. Check under the hood. If it is a V-8 then it will say so (in big writing) on top of the manifold. [/quote][p]I checked online and it seem to have those two engine for a 2014 JGC[/p][p]
[/p][p]
[/p][p]DOHC 24-valve 3.6-liter V-6, 290 hp, 260 lb-ft[/p][p]
[/p][p]DOHC 16-valve 5.7-liter V-8, 360 hp, 390 lb-ft
[/p]
I agree that a larger SUV should probably do the job but I am probably bias because I have a pickup truck but that would be my choice
Quote from: @paul" source="/post/23384/thread" timestamp="1469530825[quote source="/post/23383/thread" author="@gbpack" timestamp="1469529297"]Leslie - No offense, but I think you have a V-6. I don't think FCA ever offered a V-8 under 5 liters, but I could be wrong. Check under the hood. If it is a V-8 then it will say so (in big writing) on top of the manifold.
[p]I checked online and it seem to have those two engine for a 2014 JGC[/p][p]
[/p][p]
[/p][p]DOHC 24-valve 3.6-liter V-6, 290 hp, 260 lb-ft[/p][p]
[/p][p]DOHC 16-valve 5.7-liter V-8, 360 hp, 390 lb-ft
[/p][/quote]
Paul - You are correct. The V-8 engine in the Grand Cherokee is a 5.7 liter that now generates 370hp.
I will double-check, but a mechanic who worked on it - changed oil, etc. told me it was 3.9L V-8. What do I know about this stuff? Nothing
We tow a 14DB with a '14 Highlander that has an overly optimistic 5,000 lb tow rating. The highlander is a very comfortable family truckster when not towing the trailer. And it is adequate for towing the 14DB, but I will soon be looking for something a little bigger like the new Ford Ranger, GM/C Canyon/Colorado, or Tacoma. The highlander could probably tow an unloaded CL21; but you won't enjoy the drive, and the smart drivers on the road will be rushing to get away from you. When shopping for a trailer last spring, I calculated that a 3400 lb trailer weight/400 lb tongue weight was the maximum I would consider towing with a highlander carrying three passengers. That criteria narrowed my search to either an rpod or small pre-2016 model camplite.
Whipfinisher:
Good advice. I consider my 2013 Pathfinder (same size and specs as the Highlander) to be maxed out pulling a 16TBS.
David
[quote timestamp="1469529297" source="/post/23383/thread" author="@gbpack"]Leslie - No offense, but I think you have a V-6. I don't think FCA ever offered a V-8 under 5 liters, but I could be wrong. Check under the hood. If it is a V-8 then it will say so (in big writing) on top of the manifold. [/quote]The only V8 Chrysler recently offered below 5L is the 4.7L V-8. That is in my 2009 Ram and is a great engine. However, once the Pentastar V6 came out, they dropped the 4.7L to concentrate on the Hemis.
[quote timestamp="1469552265" source="/post/23406/thread" author="@leslie"]I will double-check, but a mechanic who worked on it - changed oil, etc. told me it was 3.9L V-8. What do I know about this stuff? Nothing[/quote]The Grand Cherokee would be either a 3.6L V-6 or the 5.7L hemi V-8.
I know we have the smaller engine and the smaller limit for towing - 6,500 lbs
Thank you for your input!
The problem I have is that a would like to buy a camplite but I can't find a small one that can be towed by a suv and can accommodate a family of 5... That's why I was looking at the CL21BHS.
Let's hope livinlite bring back the 16bhb or some similar model!
Thanks!
[quote timestamp="1469726404" author="@jeanbenjaminl" source="/post/23478/thread"]Thank you for your input!
The problem I have is that a would like to buy a camplite but I can't find a small one that can be towed by a suv and can accommodate a family of 5... That's why I was looking at the CL21BHS.
Let's hope livinlite bring back the 16bhb or some similar model!
Thanks! [/quote]If you are a family of 5 there are chance you bring a lot of stuff if I were you I would be looking for a truck weight add up quickly!
Since I was mentioned...
We now have about 11,000 miles experience towing a 21BHS behind a similar SUV - our 2011 Ford Flex bought used for use as a tow vehicle.
From a a recent trip south, at a friend's in Tallahassee:
(https://c3.staticflickr.com/2/1466/24577053802_4e8972eea4_z.jpg)As an aside, our 21BHS is our first travel trailer, so I don't really have any grounds for comparison. Just seemed similar enough to a Highlander to speak up!
[quote source="/post/23478/thread" timestamp="1469726404" author="@jeanbenjaminl"]Thank you for your input!
The problem I have is that a would like to buy a camplite but I can't find a small one that can be towed by a suv and can accommodate a family of 5... That's why I was looking at the CL21BHS.
Let's hope livinlite bring back the 16bhb or some similar model!
Thanks! [/quote]
As outlined above, you CAN find an SUV that is capable of pulling a 21' trailer, which is really what your need for a family of 5. The 21BHS would suit you just fine and there are at least 2 medium-sized SUV's that would do the trick (Jeep Grand Cherokee and Ford Flex). Get the trailer that is large enough, as the price differential between the 16' and 21' is not that much. Here is a pic of our Jeep and 21BHS. We love them both and they are a great fit together!
[attachment id="1604" thumbnail="1"]
[quote timestamp="1469806972" source="/post/23490/thread" author="@fasteddieb"]Since I was mentioned...
We now have about 11,000 miles experience towing a 21BHS behind a similar SUV - our 2011 Ford Flex bought used for use as a tow vehicle.
From a a recent trip south, at a friend's in Tallahassee:
[img style="max-width:100%;" src="https://c3.staticflickr.com/2/1466/24577053802_4e8972eea4_z.jpg"]
So far, no apparent ill effects on the Flex. As David pointed out, we did have the receiver reinforced to up the 450 lb limit that Ford gives for the Flex.
With the EcoBoost V6 we supposedly have 365 hp available and 350 ft/lbs of torque @ 3,500 rpm. Towing some pretty steep grades in and around the Smokies, power has never been an issue. Similarly, no scary moments with the EAZLift hitch and Husky sway control combo.
As an aside, our 21BHS is our first travel trailer, so I don't really have any grounds for comparison. Just seemed similar enough to a Highlander to speak up![/quote]
According to the 2011 Ford Flex manual the Frontal Area of the trailer should not exceed 35 square foot . I am pretty sure your 21BHS exceed that. Maybe 60-70 SQ foot
Paul points out the dichotomy between horsepower and displacement. The Flex has loads of horsepower- 350 created by heavy turbo charging vs having enough displacement to tow decent frontal area without harming the engine. Obviously if Ford specifies only 35 square feet of trailer frontal area (roughly equivalent to a pop up trailer) then they don't think their 3.5 liter Eco Boost can last while towing a full size camping trailer such as the CL 21BHS.
Like I have said before on this forum- I would want a minimum of 4.0 liters to tow a 21. The only solution to the 35 sq foot limitation is to slow down while towing to take some of the load off of the engine. But if Ford knew you were towing at double their spec, they would deny any drive train warranty claims.
David
I had a 2001 Toyota Sequoia with a 4.7L V8 that towed our 21BHS pretty well. I put on more robust rear shocks and added some airbags to help with squat. All in all, it wasn't a bad combination at all.
However, our Sequoia was getting long in the tooth and we decided we wanted something newer for longer trips, just in case. So I just bought a new 2016 Toyota Tundra 4x4 with a 5.7L V8. Now, I barely noticed the 21BHS when accelerating. My Tundra is now overkill for a 21BHS but the entire setup feels even safer than before.
We also own a 2011 Lexus RX350 that uses a V6 that is probably almost identical to the Highlander you want to purchase. There is no way I would want to try towing the 21BHS with that vehicle (the Highlander is a little longer, but that wouldn't change my opinion). I'm pretty sure I'd end up having to change my underwear after every attempt at trying to accelerate onto the highway.
Quote from: @paul" source="/post/23603/thread" timestamp="1470247232According to the 2011 Ford Flex manual the Frontal Area of the trailer should not exceed 35 square foot . I am pretty sure your 21BHS exceed that. Maybe 60-70 SQ foot
I was aware of that limit and posted about it earlier.
My test pilot solution is to generally set my cruise control at 55 mph. That should have substantially less drag than 65 or 70 mph, since drag increases as the
square of the increase in velocity.
But I'm aware we're pushing limits, and we're out of warranty anyway. If we push the Flex over the edge, so be it and lesson learned.
[quote source="/post/23623/thread" timestamp="1470272294" author="@fasteddieb"][quote source="/post/23603/thread" timestamp="1470247232" author="@paul"]According to the 2011 Ford Flex manual the Frontal Area of the trailer should not exceed 35 square foot . I am pretty sure your 21BHS exceed that. Maybe 60-70 SQ foot
[/quote]I was aware of that limit and posted about it earlier.
My test pilot solution is to generally set my cruise control at 55 mph. That should have substantially less drag than 65 or 70 mph, since drag increases as the square of the increase in velocity.
But I'm aware we're pushing limits, and we're out of warranty anyway. If we push the Flex over the edge, so be it and lesson learned.
[/quote]As long as you only break your Flex and you're not involved into an accident...
I was exceeding the limit too before with my Ford Escape that only had 30 sq ft of frontal area, once I was made aware of this that I was pushing the limit (wasn't aware before) I was scare of the idea of having an accident and harm someone because I was pushing the limit, this is one of the reason I decided to upgrade to a pickup truck. Just for the piece of mind. It is more stable, less stressful when you tow, I don't regret at all.
[quote timestamp="1470307559" source="/post/23628/thread" author="@paul"][quote source="/post/23623/thread" author="@fasteddieb" timestamp="1470272294"][/quote][/quote]Just so you know. The frontal area ratings in the Ford Towing Guides are there so you don't exceed the ability of the cooling systems for the engines and transmissions at extreme temperature, terrain, speed and load conditions. I hit those limits a few times with the Escape and 16DB combo. The Escape went into "Limp Mode" until it cooled. You probably would have hit them while pulling your 13'er too if it saw the stretches of road we were on at that time.
There is probably a road safety argument somewhere against towing a 21'er with a Flex. If there was, frontal area would be low on that list if not non-existent. I think Eddy would have seen signs of frontal area issues by now. "Need to turn off the A/C" was an early hint for us.
I think fasteddie has strengthened the tow hitch attachment on his Flex, so the only worries are engine life, not safety. If he goes slow he will be fine. But one caution- using cruise control rather than letting the rig slow down going up hills adds additional stress. The engine has to work hard to keep the rig moving at its set speed with cruise control. Letting the rig slow naturally by 10 mph or so puts much less stress on the engine.
I will try to post something on the frontal area thread about going up hills- fast and slow.
David
[quote timestamp="1470312809" source="/post/23629/thread" author="@whoofit"][quote source="/post/23628/thread" author="@paul" timestamp="1470307559"][/quote]Just so you know. The frontal area ratings in the Ford Towing Guides are there so you don't exceed the ability of the cooling systems for the engines and transmissions at extreme temperature, terrain, speed and load conditions. I hit those limits a few times with the Escape and 16DB combo. The Escape went into "Limp Mode" until it cooled. You probably would have hit them while pulling your 13'er too if it saw the stretches of road we were on at that time.
There is probably a road safety argument somewhere against towing a 21'er with a Flex. If there was, frontal area would be low on that list if not non-existent. I think Eddy would have seen signs of frontal area issues by now. "Need to turn off the A/C" was an early hint for us.
[/quote]I didn't had that issue with my 13 and my Escape probably because it was less weight than yours. I was probably fine even if I was exceeding the frontal area limit, but still a pickup truck is better at the job than my Escape and it feel safer and it is easier to tow with. I am probably too conservative but I take safety very seriously and feel better not taking the chance by knowing I am exceeding the limit. The Escape was more limiting with the stuff I could bring with me because of the space and payload limit being lower. If I was a family of 5 like the OP I wouldn't risk it since he would most likely be over the payload of is SUV with the weight of everyone + the stuff + the tongue weight. I would go with a truck or a larger SUV that is built on truck frame
I was looking at the F150 on the net.
They sell a version with a 2.7 Ecoboost, that seems to be getting the same MPG as my Sienna!! :)
This truck is supposed to be able to pull 7500 pounds, what do you thing about it as a tow vehicle for a 21BHS?
It 2000 pounds over the GVWR of the 21BHS, but still only a 2.7 litter engine.
Thanks!
[quote source="/post/23662/thread" timestamp="1470419670" author="@jeanbenjaminl"]I was looking at the F150 on the net.
They sell a version with a 2.7 Ecoboost, that seems to be getting the same MPG as my Sienna!! :)
This truck is supposed to be able to pull 7500 pounds, what do you thing about it as a tow vehicle for a 21BHS?
It 2000 pounds over the GVWR of the 21BHS, but still only a 2.7 litter engine.
Thanks![/quote]I do have the F150 with the 2.7L Ecoboost, it is a incredible engine, it has a lot of torque. It's not so good on gas when you tow and that's normal but on highway it's really good and it's not too bad in the city, you won't be disappointed
I haven't really looked at all the numbers for the 21BHS but I think it should be within specs ? Anyone else can check all the numbers?
EDIT: Looking at all the numbers I think it would be better to get the 3.5L Ecoboost instead for the 21BHS
[p]2.7 liters is 2.7 liters no matter how turbocharged it is and how much horsepower it produces. Lots of horsepower out of a small engine is great for: merging on the freeway, passing on narrow roads and impressing your girlfriend; all while driving, not towing.[/p][p]
[/p][p]It is a little surprising to me that Ford changed from a 35 sq ft maximum for the 3.5 liter in the 2011 Flex, to presumably more (Paul- you if anyone should know) to perhaps 70 sq foot for their 2.7 liter engine.
If you want to tow something as heavy as a 21, get something with more liters- 4.0 minimum.
David[/p]
Quote from: @david" timestamp="1470423873" source="/post/23664/thread[p]2.7 liters is 2.7 liters no matter how turbocharged it is and how much horsepower it produces. Lots of horsepower out of a small engine is great for: merging on the freeway, passing on narrow roads and impressing your girlfriend; all while driving, not towing.[/p][p]
[/p][p]It is a little surprising to me that Ford changed from a 35 sq ft maximum for the 3.5 liter in the 2011 Flex, to presumably more (Paul- you if anyone should know) to perhaps 70 sq foot for their 2.7 liter engine.
If you want to tow something as heavy as a 21, get something with more liters- 4.0 minimum.
David[/p]
I think you will find this interesting. Ford doesn't have any bias towards any of their engine sizes with regard to frontal area. They take no exception to a 2.7l vs a 5.0l. The base frontal area is 36 sq ft.
In a fifth wheel application ALL of their powertrains equipped with towing or payload packages can manage 75 sq foot.
In towing applications where the truck is rated to tow between 5000 and 7700 lbs the frontal area is restricted to 55 sq ft.
In towing applications where the truck is rated to tow 7701 lbs and up the frontal area is restricted to 60 sq ft.
Any of the engines save the lowest 3.5l normally aspirated can be made to tow max frontal area by selecting the proper gear ratio and including a tow package or payload package. The key is in the cooling, right?
For anyone looking for the straight skinny here is the link. http://www.fleet.ford.com/resources/ford/general/pdf/towingguides/Ford_Linc_16RVTTgde_r3_Nov12.pdf
All proudly derived form the new industry standard testing too.
Quote from: @david" timestamp="1470318527" source="/post/23632/threadI think fasteddie has strengthened the tow hitch attachment on his Flex, so the only worries are engine life, not safety. If he goes slow he will be fine. But one caution- using cruise control rather than letting the rig slow down going up hills adds additional stress. The engine has to work hard to keep the rig moving at its set speed with cruise control. Letting the rig slow naturally by 10 mph or so puts much less stress on the engine.
I will try to post something on the frontal area thread about going up hills- fast and slow.
David
When in the smaller hills, the transmission has a "Grade Assist" mode that holds it in slightly lower gears for longer, both uphill and downhill.
On the truly humongous (for the Eastern US*) grades, there are paddle shifters on the steering wheel to lock in whatever gear feels right.
As far as the hitch, CanAM RV in London, Ontario reinforced ours. Andy, their specialist, was surprised that Ford would even go to 450 lb tongue weight the way the factory hitch is just attached to sheet metal. The reinforcement ties the hitch into the rear suspension, giving the w/d hitch something substantial to work with. Let me dig up the before/after photos.
Here you go:
Before:
[img style="max-width:100%;" src="https://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8608/28685073472_442826aa09_z.jpg"]
After:
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8609/28758387536_fef4fb5c62_z.jpg)
Quote from: @jeanbenjaminl" timestamp="1470419670" source="/post/23662/threadI was looking at the F150 on the net.
They sell a version with a 2.7 Ecoboost, that seems to be getting the same MPG as my Sienna!! :)
This truck is supposed to be able to pull 7500 pounds, what do you thing about it as a tow vehicle for a 21BHS?
It 2000 pounds over the GVWR of the 21BHS, but still only a 2.7 litter engine.
Thanks!
[font size="3"]As David alludes to, and has been said by many others, there's no substitute for cubes when towing. I doubt you could tell the difference in MPG in the real world between the 2.7 and 3.5 outside the lab or test track, however you'll definitely tell the difference in performance ahead of the trailer. With the 21BHS on level ground at sea level the 2.7 is probably OK, but the first hill or several thousand feet of elevation will tell the story. BTW, MPG while towing is almost entirely a function of the trailer, not the engine pulling it. There is even some evidence that a small engine is worse, maybe because it's working so hard for its size. Also note that Paul is towing a 13 footer with his 2.7, not a 21. [/font]
I'll chime in that I'm in the "No substitute for cubes" camp, but this little nagging voice in my head is becoming more and more insistent that perhaps I'm behind the times and stuck in the thinking of more than a decade ago. In reading popular magazines like Motor Trend and Truck Trend, it looks like current turbos are no longer just for accelerating oomph and are designed to run almost all the time. Engines for all vehicles are downsizing in cubic inches and upsizing in boost. As long as engineering and metallurgy keep up, no foul, no harm. And I'm beginning to shift my thinking that the same applies to towing with the new boosted engines.
These questions have been answered time and time again. I chose my 5.0 F150 based on longevity in my daily application as a work truck towing daily with a large payload daily. I felt more confident in 150,000 miles of trouble free driving. This was based on DECADES of data on the V8 Coyote engine.
But, don't think for one second the 2.7l and the 3.5l EB's are incapable of some SERIOUS towing performance. Anything less would be misinformation on some random internet forum.
Some advice, listen to manufacturers that have derived their data through empirical testing. There are standardized SAE tow rating tests these days so apples truly are apples Except the Titan. They have not yet subscribed as far as I know.
If you need more proof I submit the Eisenhower tunnel run. I have run this with the Coyote. I was pleased but the 2.7L and 3.5L EB's do better. They do better going up but not going down. The number of braking events with the smaller engines is like 3:1 so there is some merit to the larger displacement.
As far as modding these goes, there are tuners for all of them. The 2.7l and 3.5l responds much better to tuning than the 5.0l. However, with apples to apples in mind, a twin turbo is offered for the 5.0l that will generate some 700 BHP if you want to do 100 mph up Ike Hill for some masochistic reason that is beyond my comprehension.
As far as drag racing these (everyone does this, right?), the 2.7 is the 1/4 mile winner. At 75 mph the 5.0 gains and at 100mph the 5.0 overtakes it. The 2.7l tops out like any sane driver would...
If you can stomach the showmanship here is the 2.7l 3.5; and 5.0l towing prowess.
Oh, and these prices on these videos are just plain nutty. I paid $36k for a 2015 F150 new for a V8 Sport XLT 4x4 extended cab model with 3.55 gears, large fuel tank, tow package and E-Locker rear. My business paid for it so depreciation is a write-off as well.
[video src="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iQQGYJCG65E"][/video]
[video src="https://youtu.be/P5CDxmwIa_M"][/video]
[video src="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E6foaq6NUbg"][/video]
Just watched the first video - cool!
One caveat - though I've never owned a turbocharged aircraft, I've flown a lot of them and I'm on forums where there is a lot of discussion about pros and cons of turbocharging - most recently debate about choosing normally aspirated vs. turbocharged models of the Cirrus SR22.
One inescapable fact, at least in aircraft, is that's there's no free lunch. The turbos simply require additional expense, both in routine maintenance and in repair and eventual overhaul costs. Of course, part of this is ameliorated by less time spent in the air on any given trip.
Similarly, in a turbocharged truck or SUV there is simply a little more to go wrong. Of course, this may not ever come into play for any given truck or SUV over a reasonable lifespan - and I personally don't worry about it on our boosted Flex.
What year BHS? Asking as the 2017's weigh a bit more than their predecessors.
I bought a '17 and towed it a couple times with an Avalanche... Did not feel comfortable, especially since we do a lot of mountain trips and decided to upgrade trucks.
"As far as drag racing these (everyone does this, right?), the 2.7 is the 1/4 mile winner. At 75 mph the 5.0 gains and at 100mph the 5.0 overtakes it."
In drag racing parlance, the Coyote doesn't have as much jump off the line, but in the last half of the run, it really gets moving. :D
For the drag racing, do they turn off the traction control? I know on my 5.0L, if you stomp the throttle hard with traction control turned on, the traction control cuts your power way down to prevent wheel spin. Really annoying when you need that power pulling out into traffic, but I usually forget to turn it off...
Quote from: @fasteddieb" source="/post/23674/thread" timestamp="1470485932One inescapable fact, at least in aircraft, is that's there's no free lunch. The turbos simply require additional expense, both in routine maintenance and in repair and eventual overhaul costs. Of course, part of this is ameliorated by less time spent in the air on any given trip.
Similarly, in a turbocharged truck or SUV there is simply a little more to go wrong. Of course, this may not ever come into play for any given truck or SUV over a reasonable lifespan - and I personally don't worry about it on our boosted Flex.
This is exactly why I decided against EB's and spent the extra money for the V8 for my application.
My F150 is primarily a work truck. In my instance, a work truck sees a lot of loaded stop and go. When you load it in such a way to require boosting a small engine from the time you leave the driveway till you stop it for service calls at many points per day the oil in the bearing portion of the turbo stands heavily overheated. Multiply this by eight to ten events per day, times 300 days per year, then again by ten years and the results can't be good.
It is the turbos that I feared. Ford put a lot of work into the pistons, rings, connecting rods, head pressures and cooling but they did not address the turbos to my comfort level. I may be wrong but figured it was best to not find out.
A lifetime consisting of mostly highway driving or an extremely under loaded truck (maybe a commuter aircraft?) would probably not see this problem as much.
Quote from: @billmoore" source="/post/23689/thread" timestamp="1470544968For the drag racing, do they turn off the traction control? I know on my 5.0L, if you stomp the throttle hard with traction control turned on, the traction control cuts your power way down to prevent wheel spin. Really annoying when you need that power pulling out into traffic, but I usually forget to turn it off...
The speedway guys seem to use traction control off. I know when I'm being bad my 5.0 will spin out in second and chirp into 3rd with no contractor cap, Cargo Glide, supplies or tools in there.
Noting that, to stay on topic, either of these trucks have far more oomph than is required by any Camplite travel trailer.
This is how some "almost stock" F150's will typically perform side by side 0-100mph. 2.7L EB vs 5.0L here:
[video src="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wa8nQxWbV7Y"][/video]
[quote timestamp="1470434256" source="/post/23668/thread" author="@charliem"]
Quote from: @jeanbenjaminl" source="/post/23662/thread" timestamp="1470419670I was looking at the F150 on the net.
They sell a version with a 2.7 Ecoboost, that seems to be getting the same MPG as my Sienna!! :)
This truck is supposed to be able to pull 7500 pounds, what do you thing about it as a tow vehicle for a 21BHS?
It 2000 pounds over the GVWR of the 21BHS, but still only a 2.7 litter engine.
Thanks!
[font size="3"]As David alludes to, and has been said by many others, there's no substitute for cubes when towing. I doubt you could tell the difference in MPG in the real world between the 2.7 and 3.5 outside the lab or test track, however you'll definitely tell the difference in performance ahead of the trailer. With the 21BHS on level ground at sea level the 2.7 is probably OK, but the first hill or several thousand feet of elevation will tell the story. BTW, MPG while towing is almost entirely a function of the trailer, not the engine pulling it. There is even some evidence that a small engine is worse, maybe because it's working so hard for its size. Also note that Paul is towing a 13 footer with his 2.7, not a 21. [/font]
[/quote]I agree for the 21 it would be better to get the 3.5L EB, I personally wanted the 3.5L EB at first but there was no 3.5L EB equipped like I wanted on the lot when I visited the dealership and tried that 2.7L anyway I liked it a lot! And I knew I only had a 13 ft so I wasn't worried a lot
[quote timestamp="1470544968" source="/post/23689/thread" author="@billmoore"]For the drag racing, do they turn off the traction control? I know on my 5.0L, if you stomp the throttle hard with traction control turned on, the traction control cuts your power way down to prevent wheel spin. Really annoying when you need that power pulling out into traffic, but I usually forget to turn it off...[/quote]The nannies babysit too much sometimes, don't they. I really appreciate ABS and VSC, but straight-line traction control can be very frustrating. With my Highlander, if the TC decided proactively the wheels even might spin, it would cut power completely, so it was possible to get stuck on a boat ramp! I would rather decide power control myself rather than have it decided by a Toyota software engineer (who isn't sitting on the boat ramp unable to go). So, yes, any full acceleration (drag-racing or not), it's good to have TC off.
Quote from: @sandroad" source="/post/23707/thread" timestamp="1470672054[quote timestamp="1470544968" source="/post/23689/thread" author="@billmoore"]For the drag racing, do they turn off the traction control? I know on my 5.0L, if you stomp the throttle hard with traction control turned on, the traction control cuts your power way down to prevent wheel spin. Really annoying when you need that power pulling out into traffic, but I usually forget to turn it off...
The nannies babysit too much sometimes, don't they. I really appreciate ABS and VSC, but straight-line traction control can be very frustrating. With my Highlander, if the TC decided proactively the wheels even might spin, it would cut power completely, so it was possible to get stuck on a boat ramp! I would rather decide power control myself rather than have it decided by a Toyota software engineer (who isn't sitting on the boat ramp unable to go). So, yes, any full acceleration (drag-racing or not), it's good to have TC off. [/quote]I think they babysit too much too. Thankfully the Bart Simpson's of the world are hard at work.
If you guys hate traction control and would like to drive a stake in the heart of that power sucking TC vampire through the TCM and PCM you can buy a 5Star tuner. Then the TC button on the dash is a non-issue. There are plenty of other goodies in there to futz around with as well like adding some 35 to 55 more horses, eliminating limiters, changing shift points and firmness and much more. Have a look: http://5startuning.com/product/1-ford-livewire-ts-5015-devices/
TC button On. Only at 5Star so far as I know.
[video src="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=09vjPYg3J-o"][/video]
When we bought our Subaru Outback, one of the deal-breakers was it had to have an off button for the TC. TC is a non-issue on my Land Cruiser; the engine control software is programmed perfectly for our needs. I sold the Highlander, but boy were those nannies assertive! You could not get out of line, literally and figuratively.