Archive - Aluminium Camper Forum

I installed the Progressive Industries EMS-LCHW30 in my 21BHS this weekend. I managed to fit it behind the converter on the underside of the fridge:

[attachment id="120" thumbnail="1"]

That was about the only location I could reach that had enough room to fit the unit. The floor space is occupied by a few large grommets and grounding busses:

[attachment id="121" thumbnail="1"]

It's also occupied by spare zip ties, loose screws, a couple chunks of loose foam, a foot of unused wire loom, half a dozen cut off wire connectors, and the serial number sticker for something (maybe the converter iself?). It's a tight space, so I can't exactly blame them for not digging around for everything they dropped, but I pulled out everything that I could reach. It was so tight that I couldn't hold the unit and drive screws at the same time. I actually drilled and tapped two holes and then hand started them:

[attachment id="122" thumbnail="1"]

The gray material is a heavy duty double stick foam tape that I used to help dampen any hum. You can hear it if you put your head right next to the converter, but otherwise you'd never know it's there. This was definitely not a normal DIY upgrade, so I wouldn't recommend it unless you've done something like this before.

Progressive Industries sells a version with a remote display, but the display itself is primitive and ugly. So I bought the EMS without the remote display to save some money with the goal of adding my own display. My unit has an internal display that shows through the window... but you may have noticed it's missing in my picture. It turns out that the internal circuitry for both units is identical, but mine is just missing the connector. I soldered on the appropriate connector and then cut a hole through the enclosure. I reverse engineered their protocol and am developing my own display to show the information (and more). Important note: the unit only functions this way if you leave out the internal display. Once you connect the internal display, it does not send any information through the external connector (those pins are used in the internal display instead).

Wanted to resurrect this thread to see how you like the surge protector. I'm thinking about getting one.

Doug

So far it's been flawless. You wouldn't even know it's there except the short delay when you connect.

I think there has to be some rule that posters who have strong electrical talents need to also offer on-site pro-bono services...

I have the Progressive portable model and it works great.

We have the unit with the remote display. Just out of curiosity, what other info do you have yours display?

Just installed the Progressive model EMSHW30C (with the remote display).  That was certainly NOT an enjoyable job, especially when done in the Florida sun on a warm day (with no electricity in the camper).  There isn't much room to work, that's for sure.  However, after a lot of sweating, the job is done and the unit is working well.  Finished just in time for our trip to the Grand Canyon this week.

Thanks to Tinkeringtechie for the pictures that were posted.  Gave me a great idea what to expect before I started.

Doug

+1 on the                    EMS-LCHW30          

I set the delay to the two minute value.  My rooftop ac does not have a built-in delay after a power outage.  I recommend that anyone installing the unit be sure to check which delay is needed.  If unsure, set it for two minutes and you cannot go wrong.

[quote source="/post/4213/thread" timestamp="1413041892" author="@dave"]+1 on the                    EMS-LCHW30          

I set the delay to the two minute value.  My rooftop ac does not have a built-in delay after a power outage.  I recommend that anyone installing the unit be sure to check which delay is needed.  If unsure, set it for two minutes and you cannot go wrong.[/quote]Good point. I assumed that my A/C unit had a built-in delay (we're in the 21st century after all), but alas it does not. I ended up having to pull the delay jumper after installation which is about 1000x as difficult as pulling it before installation.

A tech at Progressive tipped me off regarding that jumper.  He said to rest it on just one of the pins, such that it completes no circuit.  That way, it sits in here just in case you ever need to change that delay back.  Don't know how often that happens, but I'm prepared 8-).

[quote source="/post/4238/thread" timestamp="1413242415" author="@dave"]A tech at Progressive tipped me off regarding that jumper.  He said to rest it on just one of the pins, such that it completes no circuit.  That way, it sits in here just in case you ever need to change that delay back.  Don't know how often that happens, but I'm prepared 8-).[/quote]That wouldn't be a bad idea, but I can't imagine I'll ever need to change it back while on the road. If I ever upgrade the A/C to one that has a delay it's not much effort for me to go in my jumper drawer and grab one.

The fact that you have a jumper drawer tells me a lot about you (and it's all good). I just received my EMS-LCHW30 and will be installing it, the remote, a digital readout for the house batteries, and dual house batteries as soon as possible. I'm having trouble finding a dual battery box that fits in the space between the propane tank and the camper, but I've not given up yet. 

I'm thinking of ordering this same protector. Either that or take a chance on the portable unit secured with a good bicycle lock?

[quote source="/post/7648/thread" author="@surfsup" timestamp="1426028281"]I'm thinking of ordering this same protector. Either that or take a chance on the portable unit secured with a good bicycle lock?[/quote]They're both good units. Really depends on your priorities. In my case I went for the permanent version because I wanted to simplify my setup time and save storage space.

[font size="3"]The threat of theft of the portable unit is really not that bad. Most, but not all, campground power boxes can accommodate a padlock. I store a padlock around the short cable of the protector. When I set up I plug the protector into the power box, close the box, and lock it with the padlock. I also carry three 30A extensions cords for times when the box is far away, such as in Canada. If the CG power box locking tabs are gone or damaged I simply add extensions until I can get the surge protector close enough to the trailer so I can lock it to the trailer. This is easy using the safety chains or a bicycle security cable. Lots of options. One caution: the human tendency is to get a giant lock. Check a few CG power boxes before buying your lock. Most boxes have a limit on how big a hasp they will accommodate.

I like having easy visual  access to the current meter on the protector. I can tell when the electric WH is on or how close to the 30A limit I'm getting. It also tells you if the power box is wired correctly and if an over/under voltage fault has occurred. All these functions are also available on the fixed mounted unit, but you have to have the remote panel.

However, there is one disadvantage to the portable protector: that of forgetting to retrieve it before leaving. I have come very close to leaving my expensive surge protector securely locked to the CG power box. But then, I'm also the guy who forgot to lock the kitchen window before hitting the highway  >:(. Education is always expensive.
[/font]

QuoteI also carry three 30A extensions cords for times when the box is far away, such as in Canada.

Jethrow Clampett invented an electric car and was gonna drive it to Washington DC, but he could find an extension cord long enough.

Actually, I think he was more "fixin' to" than "gonna".

How often have you all encountered these line feed issues in your travels?

I look at my trailer and since it only has an $88 AC unit and the microwave that's not real expensive. The investment would probably be more for protection from ground faults especially with the aluminum floor. I would prefer a pure sine wave inverter to go with the GC2's I intend to mount but those can be made robust from spikes.

Pedestal power. Is it frequently found to be an issue from your experience?

Pin, you crack me up - the wife too!

whoofit, I asked a good friend of ours (a full timer) about the need for a surge protector. His response was: "you won't need one until you need one - at that point if you don't have one then it's too late".

Quote from: @surfsup" source="/post/7670/thread" timestamp="1426077742whoofit, I asked a good friend of ours (a full timer) about the need for a surge protector. His response was: "you won't need one until you need one - at that point if you don't have one then it's too late".

Great post.  Think of it as an insurance policy.  You hope you don't need it, but you're glad you have it if you do need it.

Yep

My only question at this point is: do I want to fiddle around installing the hard wired unit in a confined space scenario - or take the easy route?

Yes Surfsup I see the logic there for sure.

There are other devices like auto transformers that will protect from surges and brown outs specifically. These seem to allow continuous uninterrupted operation through the event. So for strictly surge protection there seems to be better solutions at a weight penalty.

Was just wondering what this group of frequent fliers have experienced is all. Since adding the device have you seen many or any ground fault problems where the device has saved your bacon?

Yep, I'd like to hear from the vets too.

I installed the internal unit.  It's been installed for about 7 months. The unit is the one with the readout, and to date I experienced one low voltage condition where it shutdown the power and then recycled.  No ground faults, and as far as I know, no surges. Other than that, all has been fine.  The only power problem I ever encountered at a campground is a bad 30A circuit breaker at Fort Wilderness in Disney.  That one cut out on me, and when I turned it back on, I could hear the arcing.  I just used my 50A adapter and switched to that circuit.  They came by and fixed the 30A that day.  I do know someone that while camping had a lightning strike nearby and fried his surge protector, while other campers nearby received significant damage to their electronics in the camper.

FYI, reading through the Amazon reviews of the portable unit (pt30c), damage caused by faulty power source is inevitable in the RV world..

DJ, did you install it behind the breaker panel?

[p]Thanks guys.

I look at this Franks unit and it seems to do the buck/boost, surge and ground fault tasks automatically. Quite a bit heavier I'm sure, larger in size, twice as expensive and more difficult to deploy but would allow uninterrupted operation. No real monitoring but there are other modern devices that will just monitor levels.

http://www.voltagebooster.com/

Standing barefoot on that aluminum floor gives pause for caution. The Progressive takes that down to zero.[/p][p]
[/p][p]Of course the question of ethics from using a boost is real. I'd give 2 answers on this. One at 110F and one at 65F.[/p]

[font size="3"]I use a a portable TRC Surge Guard. In 2-1/2 years of camping I've never encountered bad CG power. In that same time period I've also not had any auto accidents, vehicle damage, flood damage, or house fires, but I carry insurance for all these risks. The Surge Guard is insurance against power disruptions 24/7 whether I'm in the camper or away on an expedition. At $250-$265 it's good for peace of mind. If you read RV forums and blogs you'll find plenty of tales of destruction and danger from those without. This would include my brother who had major electrical damage to his class A motorhome at at commercial campground. Now, after the fact, he has surge protection.

An auto-transformer was mentioned. Auto-transformers or autoformers are designed to correct a long term problem, usually low voltage. Their response time is very long and they do nothing for instantaneous high/low voltage spikes. The surge protectors detect long and short term problems an protect the camper and its equipment. The two devices address entirely different risks. And do I really need uninterrupted operation through a brownout while camping?

Portable vs. Fixed Mount: Really a personal choice; they function identically. The fixed mounted unit must be installed, including the remote panel, and then it's done. The portable requires no installation, but adds a step to setup/teardown. The portable unit can easily be moved to your next trailer, but it can also be "borrowed" if not locked down. One other point I have only seen mentioned once. The surge protector has an internal relay that hums. If fixed mounted in the camper the unit must be shock mounted to prevent this hum from being conducted to the camper frame. I'm sensitive to things that go thump, click, buzz, drip, whrrr, and ding at night. It'd drive me nuts............
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[quote source="/post/7678/thread" author="@surfsup" timestamp="1426081726"]DJ, did you install it behind the breaker panel?[/quote]Yes.  I just disconnected the source from the breaker panel and connected it to the device.  I then simply used another piece of wiring to connect from the device to the breaker panel.  The only difficult thing was space.  There is plenty of room for the protector, but between the closed space and stiff wiring, it can get a little dicey.  Plus, doing it in August in Florida was not the brightest idea, but I wanted to get it in. :)

[quote source="/post/7681/thread" author="@charliem" timestamp="1426083673"][font size="3"]I use a a portable TRC Surge Guard. In 2-1/2 years of camping I've never encountered bad CG power. In that same time period I've also not had any auto accidents, vehicle damage, flood damage, or house fires, but I carry insurance for all these risks. The Surge Guard is insurance against power disruptions 24/7 whether I'm in the camper or away on an expedition. At $250-$265 it's good for peace of mind. If you read RV forums and blogs you'll find plenty of tales of destruction and danger from those without. This would include my brother who had major electrical damage to his class A motorhome at at commercial campground. Now, after the fact, he has surge protection.

An auto-transformer was mentioned. Auto-transformers or autoformers are designed to correct a long term problem, usually low voltage. Their response time is very long and they do nothing for instantaneous high/low voltage spikes. The surge protectors detect long and short term problems an protect the camper and its equipment. The two devices address entirely different risks.

Portable vs. Fixed Mount: Really a personal choice; they function identically. The fixed mounted unit must be installed, including the remote panel, and then it's done. The portable requires no installation, but adds a step to setup/teardown. The portable unit can easily be moved to your next trailer, but it can also be "borrowed" if not locked down. One other point I have only seen mentioned once. The surge protector has an internal relay that hums. If fixed mounted in the camper the unit must be shock mounted to prevent this hum from being conducted to the camper frame. I'm sensitive to things that go thump, click, buzz, drip, and ding at night. It'd drive me nuts............
[/font][/quote][p]My post above read like an ad for the Franks. Really I don't know about it never having set my eyes on one even. It was more for input from others like you that may have some knowledge about them.[/p][p]
[/p][p]This device seems to be more than a simple boost transformer. It has the ability to at least shut down the service spikes. I do not think it bucks per se.[/p][p]
[/p][p]The surge protection seem to be there. I don't know if it is a one shot deal like the Progressive is, where parts must be changed after an event.[/p][p]
[/p][p]I see that it offers some ground fault protection. How much and how equivalent to the Progressive? I can't find the info.[/p][p]
[/p][p]I'm not sure how to envision a slow response time as is related to saving an AC unit from a brown out. I believe it takes more than several seconds to kill a compressor though. 30 minutes would be more like it, maybe?[/p][p]
[/p][p]It seems some protection is definitely the way to go. And an enitre motorhome? That could get expensive quickly....
[/p]

Quote from: @djsamuel" source="/post/7682/thread" timestamp="1426084457[quote source="/post/7678/thread" timestamp="1426081726" author="@surfsup"]DJ, did you install it behind the breaker panel?

Yes.  I just disconnected the source from the breaker panel and connected it to the device.  I then simply used another piece of wiring to connect from the device to the breaker panel.  The only difficult thing was space.  There is plenty of room for the protector, but between the closed space and stiff wiring, it can get a little dicey.  Plus, doing it in August in Florida was not the brightest idea, but I wanted to get it in. :)[/quote]
Seems simple enough, thanks! I'll try to find the install Pdf online from their website and read up on it..

Oh Yea, how about that hum that Charlie mentioned?

Charlie, thanks for your input, good stuff to consider!

[quote source="/post/7668/thread" timestamp="1426075989" author="@whoofit"]How often have you all encountered these line feed issues in your travels?

I look at my trailer and since it only has an $88 AC unit and the microwave that's not real expensive. The investment would probably be more for protection from ground faults especially with the aluminum floor. I would prefer a pure sine wave inverter to go with the GC2's I intend to mount but those can be made robust from spikes.

Pedestal power. Is it frequently found to be an issue from your experience?
[/quote]Only once. Power kept cycling on and off. I went out to the pedestal and could hear arcing. The plug was loose inside the pedestal. Oh, and it was raining.

[quote timestamp="1426085549" source="/post/7688/thread" author="@pinstriper"]

Quote from: @whoofit" source="/post/7668/thread" timestamp="1426075989How often have you all encountered these line feed issues in your travels?

I look at my trailer and since it only has an $88 AC unit and the microwave that's not real expensive. The investment would probably be more for protection from ground faults especially with the aluminum floor. I would prefer a pure sine wave inverter to go with the GC2's I intend to mount but those can be made robust from spikes.

Pedestal power. Is it frequently found to be an issue from your experience?

Only once. Power kept cycling on and off. I went out to the pedestal and could hear arcing. The plug was loose inside the pedestal. Oh, and it was raining.
[/quote]That would be a clincher. Worst possible timing in the middle of the night at 100F. Hit the breakers and break out the ice.

[quote source="/post/7683/thread" timestamp="1426084556" author="@whoofit"]I'm not sure how to envision a slow response time as is related to saving an AC unit from a brown out. I believe it takes more than several seconds to kill a compressor though. 30 minutes would be more like it, maybe?[p]
[/p][p]It seems some protection is definitely the way to go. And an enitre motorhome? That could get expensive quickly....
[/p][/quote][font size="3"]You're right on the AC. Short term dropouts will not hurt it if the AC has a time delayed restart. Some do, some don't. The surge protector, which ever one, should have a delayed reset[/font]. [font size="3"]TRC unit and others delay approx 2 min before reset. The short term overvoltage events like spikes go after the electronics found increasingly in our appliances. The TV if AC operated, the fridge, the converter, the micro, and possibly other things like pad/pod/phone chargers. 12 volt devices are mostly protected by the battery.
[/font]

[p]Well after more research it appears the Franks product really isn't all that I had envisioned.

It may detect certain ground faults but does nothing to protect me from them.
It offers only rudimentary surge supperssion.
It bucks nothing except the scale and the wallet.
It is little more than a boost transformer with some basic intelligience.

Time for protection first and maybe a boost in the future.[/p][p]
[/p][p]Thanks for the guidance folks.
[/p]

[quote source="/post/7686/thread" timestamp="1426085410" author="@surfsup"][quote source="/post/7682/thread" timestamp="1426084457" author="@djsamuel"]Yes.  I just disconnected the source from the breaker panel and connected it to the device.  I then simply used another piece of wiring to connect from the device to the breaker panel.  The only difficult thing was space.  There is plenty of room for the protector, but between the closed space and stiff wiring, it can get a little dicey.  Plus, doing it in August in Florida was not the brightest idea, but I wanted to get it in. :)[/quote]Seems simple enough, thanks! I'll try to find the install Pdf online from their website and read up on it..

Oh Yea, how about that hum that Charlie mentioned?[/quote]I don't get a hum.  I have it mounted to the floor near the outside wall.  If I get down on the floor and listen, I can hear a faint hum, but that is all.

[quote source="/post/7677/thread" timestamp="1426081606" author="@surfsup"]FYI, reading through the Amazon reviews of the portable unit (pt30c), damage caused by faulty power source is inevitable in the RV world..[/quote][p]I am a little puzzled by this statement and all of the CL owners jumping on the bandwagon and installing power protection in their RVs.[/p][p]
[/p][p]I come from 20 years spent in the cruising boating world. If ever there is opportunity for lousy power distribution, a marina is it. Crappy falling apart docks; wiring, junction boxes and receptacles that have been under water; etc all make for power problems.[/p][p]
[/p][p]But I have never heard of any boat experiencing damage from lousy power at a marina. Maybe boat A/C systems (the most likely to be damaged from low voltage supply) have built in protection and RV roof top units do not. It can't be the sensitive electronics because all of those are on 12V DC just like you would expect them to be on an RV.[/p][p]
[/p][p]So what makes RV power supply so unreliable and dangerous? Or is it?[/p][p]
[/p][p]And FWIW we have camped at RV sites with power hookups exactly twice in my life out of maybe 200 overnights. So it isn't a problem for me in any case.[/p][p]
[/p][p]David
[/p]

David, great question, found this on a quick search...

The Coast Guard issued a non-mandatory safety alert on the eve of another boating season in the northern United States about the use of surge protectors aboard a boat.

"Most commercially available surge protective devices are designed for use ashore and will interrupt only the hot conductor when a surge occurs. What does that mean for the ship owner/operator? It means that while these devices may provide protection in our homes and offices, these same devices may be a fire risk on board vessels," the safety alert, which was issued Monday, said.

The alert then details a marine casualty investigation of two separate stateroom fires aboard a U.S.-flagged container ship that attributed the fires to the use of surge protective devices plugged into a lighting circuit.

The Coast Guard recommends that vessel owners, operators, class society surveyors, insurers and other inspection personnel examine the risks associated with the use of surge protective devices aboard vessels and, if necessary, ensure that their organizations have policies and procedures related to their use

[p]
The least of my worries is the AC, David. If mine fails I can run out to Lowes and buy another for less than $100. I'm more concerned with electrocution. The TT does already have GFCI's so it's probably paranoia. I fear there would be issues with the GFCI's working properly if a ground fault at the box existed.[/p][p]
[/p][p]But then again what do I Noah?[/p]

[p]Thanks Surfsup. I will address your point at the bottom of this post. And for Whoofit, what does ground fault protection have to do with the Progressive Industries device? I think you are confusing the two problems.[/p][p]
[/p][p]But first I have done some more thinking. It seems that the Progressive Industries device does two things:

1. It interrupts high surge current, presumably due to lightning strikes?

2. It drops out on low or high voltage.

For marinas, low voltage is the problem facing many boaters. I have a live aboard friend on one of those crappy docks mentioned in my post above and when he draws 15 amps from a 20 amp service the voltage drops 10V. But another 20 amp circuit (he is on two) doesn't drop at all. So he keeps his reverse cycle A/C on the one with no voltage drop and uses the bad one for mostly resistive loads.

But will it damage his A/C if he uses the bad circuit? I don't know. I do know that low voltage causes most motors to draw more current and heat up. If he has a 20 amp breaker protecting his A/C (it is a 16 amp running load) won't it trip before the motor is affected?

If the low voltage prevents the motor from starting won't the circuit breaker also trip?

And finally ABYC (the boating standards organization) requires that the main breaker protecting the incoming power disconnect both the load and neutral (double pole breaker). The surge protector mentioned in your post above should also do this to be safe.

Does the Progressive Industries device trip both?

David[/p]

Yes I edited my post above to include that if there was a ground fault at the box I suspect the operation of the GFCI outlets in the trailer. The progressive seems to detect the issues at the box. Maybe paranoia again.

The progressive system has a contactor that drops out both legs in the event of an issue.  That is basically what you wire to when installing the system.  When you apply power to the camper, there is a slight delay, then you hear the contactor pull in.  At that point, power is supplied to the camper.

I've heard of several cases of miswired power boxes at campsites.  In addition, the electronics in my 21BHS are not 12V, at least from a camper power supply aspect.  The TV is plugged into 110V, although it does have a power supply.  In addition, the microwave is 110V.  The converter itself could be at risk if hit by a surge.

All of that said, I think the risk of a bad power source is very small.  My biggest reason for getting the protector is surge, and while I was at it, I figured I'd get the progressive Industries system with the readout so I could easily see how much power I was drawing, etc.  Down here in Florida, lightning strikes are not uncommon.  Last summer, a lightning strike at Disney's Fort Wilderness took out about 6 or 7 campers worth of electronics.  One had a surge protector, and while the protector was fried, the camper was fine.  Again, mainly insurance, but not that expensive but worth it if something happens, especially if I am a couple of thousand miles from home.

Doug

Doug:

On boats lightning strikes are a very common occurrence. They typically will fry all 12V DC electronics on the boat: radar, chartplotter, VHF, and SSB radios. These are worth many thousands. There are no surge protectors on boats that could prevent this, because it can happen when you are at anchor not plugged in. It is the induced current surge in the wiring that does the job.

So if the risk is higher on boats, and boats can't be protected with surge devices, what good are they on RV's.

I hear you about the case in Ft Wilderness. But it seems that lighting isn't going to harm an RV that is plugged into a decently wired and grounded campsite power supply. What is the difference between a camper plugged into an outlet 10' away and the outlets in my bedroom at home which is 50' away from the panel and the actual incoming ground. They are both hooked together with wire. The only difference is that the 10' of exposed cord might be susceptible to lightning surges.

I wonder if in the Ft Wilderness case just the surge protector failed (due to induced current) and nothing would have happened if there was no protector? And maybe the other 6-7 had damage due to internal current surge that would have taken out their electronics whether they had a surge protector or not or had not even been plugged in.

I know I am starting to be argumentative and I apologize. But I find the need for power protection on RVs puzzling in the complete absence of such protection on boats.

David

Hi David,

Great point about the boats.  I never knew electronics damage was a common occurrence on boats.  I can only assume that since the electrical system on a boat is so much different from an RV (or a house), it cannot be protected.  However, an RV is essentially like a house, and both are susceptible to surge damage.  Any equipment in a home, as well as an RV can be damaged by the surge that travels through the power lines.  I've lost equipment in my home that wasn't protected by a surge protector, yet have had some saved that were protected.  I've literally heard electronics pop in my home when lightning strikes nearby.  That only happened once thankfully.

You could never by a surge protector for your RV and very likely never have an issue.  However, I've heard enough from others who have experienced damage that it gives me peace of mind.  That alone is worth it for me.  

I do fail to understand why you feel that an RV, plugged into a 110V outlet, can't sustain damage from a surge, especially due to a lightning strike, just as a house can.  Maybe I am missing something.  Won't be the first time! :)

You're a critical thinker, not argumentative.

No electrician here, but seems to me that a boat sitting in the water struck by lightening and an RV, house, etc. receiving a lightening induced power surge, indirectly via the connected power source, are two different scenarios - the latter having a high probability of being protected by a good quality surge protector?

*** all bets are off if the RV takes a direct hit :D ***

OK if you use surge protectors for electronics in your home and you think that is worthwhile then I guess it is ok in your RV which I do admit is just as likely as your house to be affected by surge. AFAIK I have never experienced surge damage in my home, and I lived in the Gulf Coast most of my life.

My entire reasoning for starting this line of questioning is that people are installing them who don't use surge protectors in their home and somehow think that an RV is more vulnerable. I don't think so.

FWIW the AC and DC systems in boats are almost identical to RVs. An RV plugged in to a campground's AC supply should be virtually identical to a boat plugged in to a marina. And an RV boondocking with no power connection is very similar to a boat at anchor. The main difference is that the boat is attached to a very good ground- the water it floats in and is therefore more susceptible to lightning strikes. The RV is at least insulated by its tires and maybe wooden pads for the jacks.

So how about undervoltage and overvoltage protection. Can't that be accomplished by the circuit breaker?  To answer my own question, I suspect it can be for the A/C or microwave whose load current is close to the breaker rating and will trip on low voltage caused overcurrent. Maybe not with the converter which should be drawing a fraction of an amp while on float but it is supplied by a 15A circuit.

One very good benefit for the Progressive device with the remote panel is the voltage meter. That alone might make it worthwhile. When I plug in to a marina I always check the AC voltage when the A/C is running. If low maybe the cord isn't seated properly or maybe the marina has undersized wiring.

David

[quote source="/post/7707/thread" timestamp="1426102107" author="@david"]OK if you use surge protectors for electronics in your home and you think that is worthwhile then I guess it is ok in your RV which I do admit is just as likely as your house to be affected by surge. AFAIK I have never experienced surge damage in my home, and I lived in the Gulf Coast most of my life.

My entire reasoning for starting this line of questioning is that people are installing them who don't use surge protectors in their home and somehow think that an RV is more vulnerable. I don't think so.

FWIW the AC and DC systems in boats are almost identical to RVs. An RV plugged in to a campground's AC supply should be virtually identical to a boat plugged in to a marina. And an RV boondocking with no power connection is very similar to a boat at anchor. The main difference is that the boat is attached to a very good ground- the water it floats in and is therefore more susceptible to lightning strikes. The RV is at least insulated by its tires and maybe wooden pads for the jacks.

So how about undervoltage and overvoltage protection. Can't that be accomplished by the circuit breaker?  To answer my own question, I suspect it can be for the A/C or microwave whose load current is close to the breaker rating and will trip on low voltage caused overcurrent. Maybe not with the converter which should be drawing a fraction of an amp while on float but it is supplied by a 15A circuit.

One very good benefit for the Progressive device with the remote panel is the voltage meter. That alone might make it worthwhile. When I plug in to a marina I always check the AC voltage when the A/C is running. If low maybe the cord isn't seated properly or maybe the marina has undersized wiring.

David[/quote]
As far as thinking an RV is more vulnerable, I agree with you 100%.  I see nothing that makes an RV more vulnerable than a house.

When I lived in NJ, I never had any damage from lightning.  In Central Florida, I've taken a hit a couple of times and use surge suppressors.  My electric company has the whole house suppressors and am considering those.  

I also agree that an RV that is boon docking is in fact very similar to a boat at anchor.  If I boondocked most of the time, I do not think I would have purchased a suppressor.  However, we are almost always hooked to a power pedestal.  

I question the value of the undervoltage protection as well, but it is a good unit and I do find value in that display.  Perhaps it is the geek in me, but I like to see how much I am drawing, especially with the A/C running and using the microwave.  I also check the frequency and to see if there have been any power "anomalies", whether it affects me or not.

Great discussion, thanks.

Good points for sure. I have all of my electronic gear on surge protection in my home. I usually unplug all of it during heavy lightening and will probably do the same in the RV. I also know the history of any electrical work done on my home, when and by whom.

I guess if you really get down to it, most RV park power pole related incidents - would most likely trace back to piss poor or nonexisting maintenance by the park owners/overseers? Or maybe even caused by the guy who last had your site? So as long as these sort of unknown exists, the surge protection boom is here to stay..

[p]It appears from the above there is no value to the ground fault sensing portion of this Progressive device. I haven't heard anyone above value it in any meaningful way. It's just there. I thought it was maybe the most important to protect from skin effect at the very least.

Maybe I'll invest in a good tank level monitor instead. Spending $250 to protect an $88 AC unit sounds ridiculous to me with my budget.[/p][p]
[/p][p]
[/p][p]From what I know about lightening strikes all the surge suppression in the world can not save you completely. It's ground wave component can infiltrate anyway. Garage door openers get fried time and time again around here when nothing else in the house gets touched. This supposedly because of the location and environment they are in versus the rest of the house.[/p]

[quote source="/post/7712/thread" timestamp="1426104503" author="@whoofit"][p]Maybe I'll invest in a good tank level monitor instead. Spending $250 to protect an $88 AC unit sounds ridiculous.[/p][/quote]Sure, but what about the fridge, converter, (microwave & TV if you have them), anything you have plugged in (laptop, chargers, etc...)? At home I plug all my valuable devices into a surge protector, so why wouldn't I do the same in my trailer?

[p]Note: I edited my post before you quoted me to reflect my budget and what I had to protect not how I saw the device as a whole.[/p][p]
[/p][p]Is the fridge even an issue? A three way Dometic type that is.

The Tele is on 12V already. That should be good I think.

Is the converter even sensitive to this? Have they changed that much?

I didn't think the laptops and smartphones were either. Are they if they are charged from the 12v circuit?

All honest questions I'd really like to know the answers to.

Thanks![/p]

And one more thing  about the lightening issue. As a ham I was taught that it mattered not if you were connected to the grid. You unplug your antenna every single electrical storm. This was more important than the power source that is usually 12v anyways. I can see a large metallic structure acting as an antenna and a very good ground plane.

[quote source="/post/7715/thread" author="@whoofit" timestamp="1426105881"][p]Note: I edited my post before you quoted me to reflect my budget and what I had to protect not how I saw the device as a whole.[/p][p]
[/p][p]Is the fridge even an issue? A three way Dometic type that is.

The Tele is on 12V already. That should be good I think.

Is the converter even sensitive to this? Have they changed that much?

I didn't think the laptops and smartphones were either. Are they if they are charged from the 12v circuit?

All honest questions I'd really like to know the answers to.

Thanks![/p][/quote]I think anything that's electrically connected is potentially at risk. Only the A/C would be affected by low voltage, but I could see everything else (including the 12V stuff) being affected by high voltage or surges. What does a converter do when it experiences a voltage spike? I don't know, but I don't want to find out the hard way either.

Thanks Tinker. I understand EMF and other conditions are a crap shoot and odds are odds but nothing is for certain.

If I could be sure this device would reduce the chances of electrocution I'd be all-in. It is more important to me than saving dollars on an insurance deductible or the device itself.

Davids post above seems to imply that I may be confused about its ability to protect us from ground fault problems. Am I confused about this? Am I expecting too much from this device to protect us from things like electrocution and skin effect?

I know enough to get into trouble with stuff like this. I did wire our home though with the blessing of an Electrician.

[font size="3"]Having followed this great discussion I see most of the questions have been addressed by others while I was typing. I type slowly and you guys respond fast. This is great, but I'll still make a few points:

[ol type="decimal"][li][font size="3"]If you dry camp all the time with a good generator, or none at all, you don't need surge protection.[/font][/li][li][font size="3"]If you only connect to your house or another good residential source you can benefit from  surge protection, but
over/under voltage and power interruption protection are not .required.[/font][/li][li][font size="3"]Frequency is generally not a problem unless a motor driven alternator is the source, and today's inverter generators should fix this problem too.[/font][/li][li][font size="3"]If you camp in RV parks or CGs, read on.[/font][/li][li][font size="3"]The RV park environment is highly dynamic as opposed to an established residential setting. RV parks are more susceptible to improper installation, equipment degradation, and poor maintenance. The house, once set up and verified, probably won't change much.[/font][/li][li][font size="3"]The RV  environment can change quickly. Even if all is good and proper when you hook up, there's no guarantee it will stay that way. The surge protector is there 24/7.[/font][/li][li][font size="3"]Protecting an entire house can get expensive and the house is a lower risk environment. $250 is cheap protection for campers (trailers) and campers (people).[/font][/li][li][font size="3"]Low voltage results from poor connection or undersized wiring. There is a fairly wide spread between a motor's running current and its starting current. A breaker for a motor circuit must be sized to pass the high starting current for a short period. As voltage goes low the  motor's running current goes up and the motor generates additional heat. The motor can run at low voltage for a long time without tripping the breaker. The additional heat eventually damages the motor.
[/font][/li][li][font size="3"] A missing ground at the post, which will be detected by the surge protector, can lead to life threatening voltages on the RV skin. This fault will not be noticed in the operation of anything in the RV. Everything is cool until someone gets between the RV and a real ground[/font][/li][li][font size="3"]The same is true of a neutral-hot reversal.[/font][font size="3"]
[/font][/li][li][font size="3"]Lightning spikes a totally dependent on distance to the strike and what's in between. Nothing will protect against a very near or direct hit. There is, however a range over which the surge protector will provide  protection. Impossible to calculate or estimate. [/font][/li][/ol][p]
[/p]
For additional information I refer you to the work done by our member, Mike Sokol, (jmsokol) at [a href="http://www.noshockzone.org/category/rv-safety/"]http://www.noshockzone.org/category/rv-safety/[/a] .

I'll stick with my Surge Guard.[/font]

[p]Thanks, Charlie.

I'm in.[/p][p]
[/p][p]I do want to thank everyone for their patience with a relative newb like me. I got a couple little nephews and they can be a bit overwhelming at times. I see some of this obnoxious behavior when I re-read my posts. This tends to lead to endless editing.[/p]

Dittos, thanks to all for the good discussion... I've decided to get the portable one.

[quote timestamp="1426111240" source="/post/7719/thread" author="@charliem"]

[font size="3"]Having followed this great discussion I see most of the questions have been addressed by others while I was typing. ...
[ol type="decimal"][li][font size="3"]If you dry camp all the time with a good generator, or none at all, you don't need surge protection. ...[/font][/li][/ol]
[p][/p][/font] [/quote]