I'm finally picking up my new 16TBS next week in southern IN and driving home to Kansas City. I remember reading a post by Geezer in late Jan about their tough trip home. I was wandering if I should take some extra weight (sand bags) to add to the trailer since it will be totally empty. If so where should I place them. The tongue will have the battery and filled propane tanks. Thanx in advance. I also wanted to know, being new to any kind of forum posting, if I should have added this as a reply to Geezer's original post.
Congrats on picking up your new trailer next week. It might not be a bad idea to take a little extra weight along with you, although we have a 21BHS so I really can't speak to the 16 footers. We didn't have any trouble on the initial drive home without any extra weight but we had more tongue weight with dual LP tanks, 2 batteries and a large steel battery box installed on the front. So maybe a couple of sand bags might be a good idea. Regarding your post, I think with your post you were fine either way. Hope everything goes well with your trip, and enjoy your new rig!
[font size="3"]Your 16TBS should to fine, especially with the dual axles, the battery(ies) and full propane bottles. Your GX 460 should do well if you have a full tow package and a good brake controller. You will want a WDH/Sway control.
I don't find a post where Geezer had issues towing his 21. Only one other poster reported severe problems and the general conclusion was there were other things wrong. Don't remember who that was. Just take your time and keep your speed down until you get some experience. Tow with empty tanks or 5 gallons of fresh water for the road.
Your post is in the right place.
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When I first got home with our new 16TBS with a single battery and propane tank on the tongue, I measured the weight on the jack. It was 240 lbs. The trailer's weight was probably near 3,000 lbs, so that was below the recommended 10% tongue weight. But it towed fine like that. When I finally loaded the trailer with stuff in the front pass through, the tongue weight probably went up a bit
But you never know. Do you have one or two propane tanks. With two you should be fine. But if only one like mine, I think an extra 100 lbs of sand bags might be good insurance. You probably won't need anything after loading stuff.
David
Hooray! Enjoy the trip. All first trips are a learning experience in some way, so be sure to let the forum know how it goes. I look forward to trading camping and fishing ideas.
When I picked up my 2016 TBS with 2 propane tanks and battery, the tongue weight was 260-270.The weight of the 16 TBS was over 3300 LBS. My anderson hitch was set up in the middle hole and I had problems. I now know that I should have had the hitch in the bottom hole with the fresh water tank about 1/2 full. As I really start packing in stuff, I can decrease the amount of water in the tank. My tow vehicle was a 2012 Tacoma with tow package.
Dear Members, thanx for the advise and encouragement. David, I do have two
propane tanks, Just one battery now, but have ordered the box that Merlin used to store two AGM's I took out of my pickup camper when I return home. Don't want to add water now, still frost in the air in KC.
I've learned a ton on this great forum. Looking forward to a great summer in the Rockies. This is a huge change in camping for me. I've always been off the grid camping in elk hunters campsites and other non improved sites.
cheers, flyhead
Depends. If you have a double axle 16 TBS you should plan on adding weight or water to your tank. Single axle you should be fine. We have a single axle and had no issues on our short ride home that did involve highway driving. The dealer said when they tow a 16 TBS to the various RV shows in the area they remove the two front tire on the double axle TBS they have to make it behave while towing empty.
[font size="3"]For those of you with 16TBSs: Where is the fresh water tank mounted? On the 21s the FW tank is intentionally mounted right over the axles. Thus water adds only to total weight, but has very little effect on tongue weight. If this is also true on the 16 it actually exacerbates a light tongue weight problem.
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[quote timestamp="1458330182" source="/post/19666/thread" author="@charliem"][font size="3"]For those of you with 16TBSs: Where is the fresh water tank mounted? On the 21s the FW tank is intentionally mounted right over the axles. Thus water adds only to total weight, but has very little effect on tongue weight. If this is also true on the 16 it actually exacerbates a light tongue weight problem.
[/font][/quote]There is so much similarity between the 16 and the 14, I'm gonna hazard that it is in front of the axles as well. I do find she is bouncier with the fresh tank empty, as the tongue weight goes down and that's what that does. Haven't ever measured the TW.
My money is on full propane tanks and a full or nearly full fresh tank will calm things down just fine. The best place to put weight is in the passthrough. We want more tongue weight, not just more weight.
On the 16TBS with dual axles, the fresh tank is forward of the axles with only the very rear of the tank over the front axle. It helps a lot to add water to the tank to increase tongue weight, but it's not necessary if there is other weight up front.
I can't believe the dealer would remove 2 wheels and tow a 16TBS. The 2 remaining tires will be overloaded and even for short distances that's bad. The C rated 13" tires are only rated for 1300 lbs each. It's bad enough they do it, even worse they tell customers they do it. Add to the dealer horror stories......
Quote from: @sandroad" source="/post/19675/thread" timestamp="1458340072I can't believe the dealer would remove 2 wheels and tow a 16TBS. The 2 remaining tires will be overloaded and even for short distances that's bad. The C rated 13" tires are only rated for 1300 lbs each. It's bad enough they do it, even worse they tell customers they do it. Add to the dealer horror stories......
That's unbelievable. Unreal.
[quote timestamp="1458342943" source="/post/19678/thread" author="@gbpack"]
Quote from: @sandroad" source="/post/19675/thread" timestamp="1458340072I can't believe the dealer would remove 2 wheels and tow a 16TBS. The 2 remaining tires will be overloaded and even for short distances that's bad. The C rated 13" tires are only rated for 1300 lbs each. It's bad enough they do it, even worse they tell customers they do it. Add to the dealer horror stories......
That's unbelievable. Unreal.[/quote]
Hopefully they have the name of the dealership plastered all over their tow vehicle so people who see them on the road will know to avoid them.
flyhead - My experience with bringing home our new (single axle) 16TBS. I have a 4Runner Trail Edition for the TV. I also have a Weighsafe tow hitch with integrated tongue weight scale. My measured tongue weight at pick up (with two full propane tanks and battery) was almost 500lbs. Knowing in advance that tongue weight might be an issue for me (max on 4Runner is 500lbs), I installed a pair of Firestone Air Coils to help stiffen the rear suspension coils before picking up the trailer - cost about $300 to get installed in Phoenix. At pick up I inflated the Air Coils to 25 psi, adjusted the ball height so the trailer was level, and away I went. The dealer suggested an Anderson WD/sway control device which I declined. I did not add any extra weight to the trailer. I towed the trailer for the next 3 days 1800 miles from SIRV to Phoenix. I went through some hellacious near-blizzard conditions in Iowa with measured sustained head and quartering cross winds 25-30 mph with gusts to 45 mph. The trailer got pushed around a bit in the winds, but so would any vehicle. I did not have any issue with sway, although the gas mileage took a real hit. Without the winds - trailer towed like a dream - did not even notice it was back there. The ride from IL to AZ went through varying terrain (flats to mountains) and varying weather conditions without any issues.
I just completed an 800 mile round trip to Zion Natl Park with a loaded trailer (enough for 2 people for a week - not sure what the actual GW was). My measured tongue looked to be a bit over 550lbs. Towed through mountains with some wind - again no issues. We have the off-road package, so not sure what, if any effect that might have on things, but since it does make the trailer sit higher it would seem the higher center of gravity might amplify any problems with sway. The structures guys on the board can weigh in.
FWIW - in my opinion, for my TV, I think adding the Air Coils and ensuring that the tow ball was set at the right height to level the trailer were the most important factors for ensuring a smooth ride. I have no plans to install a WD/sway control device. Biggest surprise for me was the hit on gas mileage due to heavy winds on the trip home. My mpg was as low as 6.7mpg at 65mph. Recent trip to Zion averaged about 12mpg at 60 mph. I normally get 19-20mpg at 75mph without the trailer.
Hope this helps. Safe travels on your way back home - make sure you plan in you gas stops if you are going an extended distance.
Wow, 500 lbs dry and now 550 lbs tongue weight loaded for a single axle 16TBS!!! I would never have bought mine three years ago with those numbers.
The tongue weight limit is 500 lbs on my 2013 Nissan Pathfinder. You are probably ok on your 4Runner by adding air springs as you have a conventional body on frame that can take the weight. But I don't think that just adding air springs would be enough for the unit body design of the newer Pathfinders.
And with all of that weight on the tongue, about 15% I am sure that you won't need sway control.
David
Yeah, David is spot on. My first thought was with that tongue weight, what is the trailer weight coming in at and where are you with GCVW capacity. The other thought was it could just be excessive tongue weight, which could happen easier with a single axle vs. dual. These singles are going to porpoise more, making it more important to get the load balanced juuuuuust right. If you can keep the extra tongue weight from sagging the rear end and lifting the front end up (where your steering and most of your braking is), that's about what you can hope for.
Quote from: @dan" source="/post/19785/thread" timestamp="1458657198flyhead - My experience with bringing home our new (single axle) 16TBS. I have a 4Runner Trail Edition for the TV. I also have a Weighsafe tow hitch with integrated tongue weight scale. My measured tongue weight at pick up (with two full propane tanks and battery) was almost 500lbs. Knowing in advance that tongue weight might be an issue for me (max on 4Runner is 500lbs), I installed a pair of Firestone Air Coils to help stiffen the rear suspension coils before picking up the trailer - cost about $300 to get installed in Phoenix. At pick up I inflated the Air Coils to 25 psi, adjusted the ball height so the trailer was level, and away I went. The dealer suggested an Anderson WD/sway control device which I declined. I did not add any extra weight to the trailer. I towed the trailer for the next 3 days 1800 miles from SIRV to Phoenix. I went through some hellacious near-blizzard conditions in Iowa with measured sustained head and quartering cross winds 25-30 mph with gusts to 45 mph. The trailer got pushed around a bit in the winds, but so would any vehicle. I did not have any issue with sway, although the gas mileage took a real hit. Without the winds - trailer towed like a dream - did not even notice it was back there. The ride from IL to AZ went through varying terrain (flats to mountains) and varying weather conditions without any issues.
I just completed an 800 mile round trip to Zion Natl Park with a loaded trailer (enough for 2 people for a week - not sure what the actual GW was). My measured tongue looked to be a bit over 550lbs. Towed through mountains with some wind - again no issues. We have the off-road package, so not sure what, if any effect that might have on things, but since it does make the trailer sit higher it would seem the higher center of gravity might amplify any problems with sway. The structures guys on the board can weigh in.
FWIW - in my opinion, for my TV, I think adding the Air Coils and ensuring that the tow ball was set at the right height to level the trailer were the most important factors for ensuring a smooth ride. I have no plans to install a WD/sway control device. Biggest surprise for me was the hit on gas mileage due to heavy winds on the trip home. My mpg was as low as 6.7mpg at 65mph. Recent trip to Zion averaged about 12mpg at 60 mph. I normally get 19-20mpg at 75mph without the trailer.
Hope this helps. Safe travels on your way back home - make sure you plan in you gas stops if you are going an extended distance.
Good info on the help the airbags provided. Those are becoming a popular TV mod. The mpg hit is not surprising. If you were trying to sustain 65mph while going into quartering/head winds of +25 mph, you were lucky to get even 6.7 mpg. That's like pulling trailer at the equivalent of 90 mph! The 12 mpg at 60 mph is normal for towing.
I should caveat that my reported tongue weights are approximate - the Weighsafe gauge is difficult to read sideways on your hands and knees on icy (and alternately roasting hot) Tarmac, and I have not had an opportunity to validate the readings using a certified scale, but I think they are close enough. The reported tongue on my 16TBS as measured on the factory, or at least what the LL factory rep told me was measured, was 444 lbs with empty propane tanks and no battery, so a measured dry of 500lbs at the dealer with the propane tanks full and the battery added seems reasonable.
Without the Air Coils, my measured rear bumper deflection was 2.25 inches ; with the coils inflated at 25 psi it was 1.25 inches. We keep the back end of the TV mostly empty, just me and the wife and the snacks in the car, so with the Air Coils I'm not overly concerned about the 550lb tongue weight as I don't think the TV is overloaded and the TV attitude is not compromised - would not want to go any higher, though. When we load up we put as much of the heavy stuff over the axle and in the rear as possible - even toyed with adding water to the black tank but that hasn't been necessary yet.
I'll post again when I get around to making my way down to the certified scales.
This is not a "get off my lawn" rant.
But I have to say I am not a fan of folks driving trailers at 65+ mph. That's plenty fast for a rig without a trailer, but when you have a trailer everything happens REAL FAST at 65. And on a downgrade, 65 can creep up to a positively unsafe 70 or more. With a trailer and 13" wheels and questionable balance points all affecting stability...all I gotta say is "oy".
I don't try to maintain 65. I try to maintain between 55 and 60, and 65 is my "red line".
I am also particularly unsympathetic to complaints about fuel economy at those speeds.
We have an early 2015 16TBS - 240 lb dry tongue weight/3050 base weight. I pulled it from Indiana to New Mexico and had an accident with it. We had the propane tanks and a 60 lb generator inside was the only weight, so massively light on the tongue. I was pulling with a 2004 4runner - it did fine hauling at 60. The accident happened after cresting a hill and heading down - the speed crept up to 65 and the oscillation was fast and violent - bounced the trailer off the side of a semi next to us. We added the anderson wdh and got the tongue weight up to 450 (3900 lbs total weight) and still had oscillation issues starting around 62-63. I do think the design of the trailer has some impact on us as did the narrow/short wheelbase of the 4runner - bad combo - but we love the trailer so swapped the 4runner for a Sequoia - happy ending.
I would definitely recommend ensuring you have adequate weight in the front - the water tank as mentioned is in front of the axle and will contribute greatly (300 lbs total if full, count on 75 lb on the hitch), the anderson wdh is a must imo for the gx460 (a souped up 4runner....). Had I kept the 4runner I would have added rear air bags but am convinced the relative physics of the two arent a good match. I'm sure others will disagree and blame me - so be it. And to the previous comment - keep it below 60 - consider 63 red-line.
my original post on the topic
http://livinlite-owners.com/thread/617/don-mike-livinlite
Dear members: Made it home today in good shape. First time I've towed anything since owning an Apache PopUp back in the late 70's. I did add a couple on tubes of sand in the mini isle between the twin beds in the TBS, seemed to help, thanx for the suggestions. I want to give a shout out to my dealer, John Gerton in Mt Vernon, IN. The Andersen hitch had a 2-5/16" ball instead of the 2" he had ordered. He had Andersen overnite the 2" from ID to IN. In a pouring rain he finished the install and I was on the road before 10:00 AM. Merlin, he did have to add a couple of links to the Andersen unit as you had forwarned.
I had to push it to get home in time to watch the NCAA's. I averaged 63 mph facing 25 mph head winds crossing the Mississippi and the Missouri rivers on I-70. The hard part was backing up for the first time in years.
Hope it is proper etiquette to give my dealer a plug, if so, check out Gerton Auto Sales in Mt Vernon, IN