Thanks Sean. This is really bothersome. Glad my 21BHS is a 2013! Feel bad for Christian and frustrated with LivinLite/Thor. Thor seems to have taken a company with great potential and squandered it. I've stopped being the LivinLite salesman on other forums such as GoodSams. There is too much uncertainty to recommend.
Thanks again.
Doug
I created a publicly accessible thread for this topic since the 'Updates' thread was locked to staff only.
-Sean
I can't imaging what Thor is thinking. In the middle of a redesign of the LL models which has caused a lot of controversy on this forum, they remove the factory liaison to this forum with no replacement in sight. That tells me that they don't want to hear any bellyaching from LL owners. That of course destroys any customer loyalty which is the lifeblood of any brand.
What are they thinking?
David
Quote from: @david" source="/post/19354/thread" timestamp="1457539031I can't imaging what Thor is thinking. In the middle of a redesign of the LL models which has caused a lot of controversy on this forum, they remove the factory liaison to this forum with no replacement in sight. That tells me that they don't want to hear any bellyaching from LL owners. That of course destroys any customer loyalty which is the lifeblood of any brand.
What are they thinking?
David
[font size="3"]From my standpoint it drives prospective buyers to Lance or ATC. Apparently ~900 users don't matter. RIP LL :'( [/font]
[font size="3"]How KZ does things today:
[a href="http://www.kz-rv.com/products/spree-travel-trailers/features.html"]http://www.kz-rv.com/products/spree-travel-trailers/features.html[/a]
[a href="http://www.kz-rv.com/products/spree-connect-travel-trailers/features.html"]http://www.kz-rv.com/products/spree-connect-travel-trailers/features.html[/a]
[/font]
Quote from: @charliem" source="/post/19358/thread" timestamp="1457546580[font size="3"]How KZ does things today:
[a href="http://www.kz-rv.com/products/spree-travel-trailers/features.html"]http://www.kz-rv.com/products/spree-travel-trailers/features.html[/a]
[a href="http://www.kz-rv.com/products/spree-connect-travel-trailers/features.html"]http://www.kz-rv.com/products/spree-connect-travel-trailers/features.html[/a]
[/font]
Lots of potential for rot and rust there... :'(
Unfortunately, its the world we live in today. Big business buys small pain the ass competitors and shuts them down or integrates them into other divisions and cuts costs but most importantly removes competition. It's now obvious why CL LL was not at the Minnesota or Atlanta RV shows. Let's hope our trailers increase in value versus depreciate as they are a different product produced in a very short window of time.
Nice thought, Monte, but CL wasn't "a thing" long enough to be anything more than a footnote, or asterisk. A short run of modest production, that just didn't survive.
Used to pick up LL brochures at dealers and give them out to curious people around the nation at campgrounds, interstate rest areas, and supermarket parking lots. Last camping trip (last week) four folks visited for an hour asking questions about the Mighty 11.
I'm proud to say our 2010 Mighty 11 was one of the first 10 travel trailers built by LL. Even though I made modifications, the camper can be returned to it's original configuration in a day. It may take a while, but believe our units will eventually appreciate and will be sought after. After all, they will will last more than a lifetime. LL used to say in some of the early travel trailer advertisements that the unit will last long enough to pass on to family members.
For me it's bittersweet since I was planning on buying a LL toy Hauler, now it will be ATC, but will keep the Mighty 11, too!
One of our fist camping trips with the Mighty 11 towing with a 1987 Toyota Pickup with R-22 engine!
(http://i657.photobucket.com/albums/uu299/vstromklr/2012/IMG_0446.jpg) (http://s657.photobucket.com/user/vstromklr/media/2012/IMG_0446.jpg.html)
[quote source="/post/19379/thread" timestamp="1457577555" author="@pinstriper"]CL wasn't "a thing" long enough to be anything more than a footnote, or asterisk. A short run of modest production, that just didn't survive.
[/quote]Let's hope that thought is premature. I understand the pessimism but they aren't out of business yet. Who knows, K-Z management might have big plans??
Personally, I really like the mighty 11 design. (Didn't know the name until now). I've never seen one, but I look for them. We're a fortunate "before the cash" 2013 owner, and I too hope our value increases and our camper is sought after. Think early Airstream without the wood!
I smile because I don't know what's going on... But it sounds disturbing (at minimum). Since we bought our Quicksilver 8.1 in 2010 we too have carried Quicksilver brochures to hand out to the curious. It sounds as if we should quit doing that. I don't know if there has been any new news on the Quicksilver line, but I think even before LL appears to have (basically) "sold out," they were already building Quicksilvers for Coleman (which I am not sure was good or bad). We absolutely adore our tiny trailer and at our age do not ever contemplate an upgrade (so the Camplites do not interest us), but now I worry that when Rosie's tent inevitably wears out and starts to leak, will we be able to order a replacement or will we have to have to have a tent custom made, which we're pretty sure we would not be able to afford (there is after all a reason why we are in a tiny Q$ in the first place).
We know everything changes (we got too soon old didn't we?), but when we bought Rose in 2010 we naively imagined that Livin' Lite would always be owned by Scott and the factory would always be in Wakarusa and the nice folks there would always be there. We actually drove to Wakarusa to pick Rosie up, where we got personal coaching on setup and takedown from Mike (forgot last name). That sort of thing will never happen again. Scott (we now understand) could not possibly have run the place forever. He got a handsome settlement and moved on. Things change (but we don't have to like it), but one major reason we bought a Quicksilver, even though it was arguably overpriced (!) was that it was built by a tiny outfit that cared about the product (except for the ubiquitous curly aluminum shavings). When a company is sold out to the Corporate Interests we can pretty much expect that everything will change, and often not for the better. Now it sounds as if this complicated takeover dance will mean the loss of some or (eventually) all of the aluminum in the products (we especially love the pretty-much-total lack of need for maintenance on a Quicksilver, never worry about rust or rot or mold...), and maybe the loss of the Quicksilvers altogether!
I know this is a pretty negative outlook, but the fact that they seem to have dumped Christian without warning is, to me, a very big red flag. ???
Luckily I think the QS line has been a relatively low priority for any changes. There isn't much to change and most of the products in it are already done in a very cost effective way. I'm guessing the QS's will be left alone unless they reach a point where they are dropped all together. In other words I'm thinking they are an all or thing line.
Quote from: @chuck893" timestamp="1457620753" source="/post/19401/threadSince we bought our Quicksilver 8.1 in 2010 we too have carried Quicksilver brochures to hand out to the curious. It sounds as if we should quit doing that.
Gave out my last brochure last summer at a rest stop on I90 in Wyoming. Now I tell folks LL made changes to current travel trailers and they are no longer built like our camper.
Posted this photo before, here's another curious fellow, Jack Hanna, with Debbie at Glacier NP MT last summer. He was interested in a Toy Hauler. Gave him a brochure, too.
http://www.jackhanna.com/
[a href="http://s657.photobucket.com/user/vstromklr/media/2015%20Camping%20Trip/IMG_8551_zps146clvrw.jpg.html"]
[img style="max-width:100%;" src="http://i657.photobucket.com/albums/uu299/vstromklr/2015%20Camping%20Trip/IMG_8551_zps146clvrw.jpg"][/a]
Chuck,
I have a QS 6.0 and I believe that the canvas tent is sub contracted out to Veada Industries in New Paris, IN, not positive - but the Warranty paper work for the tent portion of our QS is from them.
http://veada.com/camper-canvas.html
Quote from: @charleschapman" source="/post/19409/thread" timestamp="1457625554Chuck,
I have a QS 6.0 and I believe that the canvas tent is sub contracted out to Veada Industries in New Paris, IN, not positive - but the Warranty paper work for the tent portion of our QS is from them.
http://veada.com/camper-canvas.html
Thanks, Charles, and thanks for the link. Our tent (last I knew; she's been down all winter) was in sterling shape despite 6 full seasons of very hard use (for example in 2015 we were in 30 different camps in 16 states over 99 days and 16,000 miles---HARD use). But after all that exposure to ultraviolet and windstorms I know that at some point it simply has to disintegrate, and with all the changes I worry that Quicksilver will simply be dumped, microscopic niche market and so forth. Then it could be hard to get a replacement tent, although any good tent and awning place should be able to custom make one (for a pri$$$$e).
[quote source="/post/19405/thread" timestamp="1457624191" author="@admin"]Luckily I think the QS line has been a relatively low priority for any changes. There isn't much to change and most of the products in it are already done in a very cost effective way. I'm guessing the QS's will be left alone unless they reach a point where they are dropped all together. In other words I'm thinking they are an all or thing line.[/quote]Thanks, Sean. That's the thing: with all the changes I worry that Quicksilver will simply be dumped, microscopic niche market and so forth. I've been mildly surprised (and disappointed) at the number of people who have glanced inside and sniffed, "Well! It's awfully industrial, isn't it?" Honestly, that smarts! Yes, she's spare, "spartan," but also (as we point out) there is nothing to rust, rot, or mildew, anywhere, except maybe the tent and mattresses. Maintenance consists of greasing the hubs about every 8,000 miles. We are on our second set of tires but the original tent. It's not a big deal for us; we will keep Rose until we just can't do it any more, then give her to our son and his family. Mostly it's a matter that we have been so proud of Rose and think other folks should have an opportunity to enjoy the line. It would be a crying shame if they just discontinued it as maybe being unprofitable. :P
I agree completely. One of the primary factors which caused us to get a QS was the durability and simplicity. It has its place for sure and I hope it stays around for many years to come.
-Sean
I like everyone else here is frustrated by the sudden turn of events that has occurred with the manufacturer over the last few months and specifically the lack of information coming out of K-Z. However I am trying to remain optimistic about the whole thing and trying to see what lands where once the dust settles from the shakeup. We are still very happy and proud owners of a Livin Lite QS 10! Just like everyone else on here for the most part I believe that you all are still happy with your campers. And we should be proud of them because they are unique and a good camper. Yes there are little things that drive us all nuts about them but they are still built by humans and we all miss things and make mistakes. If we found shavings in the campers we picked them up and threw them away or we fixed the things that were wrong. But those things didn't make many of us get rid of them.
Should we still tell people about LL? That is a personal decision that each of us have to make. WE, my wife and I, plan on telling everyone we can about the camper because we believe in it and love mostly everything about it. We specifically waited until we found our QS 10 because of all the features it has. We have even decided that in a few years when I retire we are going to get a CL 14 or 16 to either replace or supplement the current camper. We like the brand that much. Does it mean I won't look at others No it doesn't if things deteriorate with the company or brand we will look elsewhere.
But I think the point I am trying to get across is this group is some of the most loyal owners I have seen. And we can help by spreading the word in the hopes that more people will want thse campers and will join the "family". These new prospective owners can help apply pressure to the company to keep things as they are or make things better but we all have to try. So keep passing the word if you want.
Just today I was driving home and saw a CL11 headed east towards Baltimoreand was jealous because they had theirs out and hopefully coming or going to use it.
Sorry for the rant just my two cents.
It isn't a matter of loyalty per se. We bought our rigs for reasons that made the product uniquely superior, and we proudly invited others to do the same. The exact opposite of buyer's remorse.
But the behavior/decisions of the company have put them in the same category of others I do business with, but cannot in good conscience recommend: Comcast, Microsoft, Bank of America, mlb.tv. Each of these was a positive experience at some point, and there are even benefits I get/got from them. But like LL, I cannot promote them to others because these companies have made a deliberate choice to change the experience. Finks and rat bastards, all of them.
I don't want rid of my CL. I am very happy with the product.
I mourn the fact that what I got from them will not be available to anyone else in the future (the move away from aluminum roofs and floors, dual axles, wood-free construction).
[quote timestamp="1457665227" source="/post/19446/thread" author="@pinstriper"]It isn't a matter of loyalty per se. We bought our rigs for reasons that made the product uniquely superior, and we proudly invited others to do the same. The exact opposite of buyer's remorse.
But the behavior/decisions of the company have put them in the same category of others I do business with, but cannot in good conscience recommend: Comcast, Microsoft, Bank of America, mlb.tv. Each of these was a positive experience at some point, and there are even benefits I get/got from them. But like LL, I cannot promote them to others because these companies have made a deliberate choice to change the experience. Finks and rat bastards, all of them.
I don't want rid of my CL. I am very happy with the product.
I mourn the fact that what I got from them will not be available to anyone else in the future (the move away from aluminum roofs and floors, dual axles, wood-free construction).
[/quote]Agree 100%. Some here will attest that I was somewhat of a Camplite cheerleader on the Goodsam forums. I did so because people would get tired of the torn rubber roofs, rotten wood, etc. The Camplite was the great alternative. Now the differences are not so apparent, especially when the cost is considered. Looking at the 21BHS on the Livinlite web site as it stands today, I can honestly say that I do not think I would purchase it unless they greatly lowered the price. If I wouldn't buy it, I sure won't be recommending it.
[quote timestamp="1457634120" author="@chuck893" source="/post/19421/thread"]I've been mildly surprised (and disappointed) at the number of people who have glanced inside and sniffed, "Well! It's awfully industrial, isn't it?" Honestly, that smarts! Yes, she's spare, "spartan," but also (as we point out) there is nothing to rust, rot, or mildew, anywhere, except maybe the tent and mattresses. Maintenance consists of greasing the hubs about every 8,000 miles. [/quote]Our 2010 Mighty 11 has painted sheet metal interior walls. My Wife & I like it, because it's extremely durable and very easy to clean.
Feel like the May Tag repairman sometimes, use the camper a lot and does not require much maintenance. Had to replace the hub covers on the wheels with stainless steel hub covers the other day, less than $20, other than that, nothing to report! The May Tag repairman can go back to sleep in the Mighty 11 60X80 Queen memory foam bed! Have to admit, will replace the lug nuts during 2016! 8-)
[a href="http://s657.photobucket.com/user/vstromklr/media/2016/IMG_9489_zpsxi1c5rjx.jpg.html"]
(http://i657.photobucket.com/albums/uu299/vstromklr/2016/IMG_9489_zpsxi1c5rjx.jpg)
(http://i657.photobucket.com/albums/uu299/vstromklr/2016/IMG_9487_zpswqq7yp3w.jpg)
[img style="max-width:100%;" src="http://i657.photobucket.com/albums/uu299/vstromklr/2016/IMG_9488_zpsssj5fznx.jpg"][/a]
Quote from: @exploringcarolina" source="/post/19455/thread" timestamp="1457701663[quote timestamp="1457634120" source="/post/19421/thread" author="@chuck893"]I've been mildly surprised (and disappointed) at the number of people who have glanced inside and sniffed, "Well! It's awfully industrial, isn't it?" Honestly, that smarts! Yes, she's spare, "spartan," but also (as we point out) there is nothing to rust, rot, or mildew, anywhere, except maybe the tent and mattresses. Maintenance consists of greasing the hubs about every 8,000 miles.
Our 2010 Mighty 11 has painted sheet metal interior walls. My Wife likes & I like it, because it's extremely durable and very easy to clean.
Feel like the May Tag repairman sometimes, use the camper a lot and does not require much maintenance. Had to replace the hub covers on the wheels with stainless steel hub covers the other day, less than $20, other than that,
nothing to report! The May Tag repairman can go back to sleep in the Mighty 11 60X80 Queen memory foam bed! Have to admit, will replace the lug nuts during 2016! 8-)
[a href="http://s657.photobucket.com/user/vstromklr/media/2016/IMG_9489_zpsxi1c5rjx.jpg.html"]
[img style="max-width:100%;" src="http://i657.photobucket.com/albums/uu299/vstromklr/2016/IMG_9489_zpsxi1c5rjx.jpg"][/a]
[a href="http://s657.photobucket.com/user/vstromklr/media/2016/IMG_9487_zpswqq7yp3w.jpg.html"]
[img style="max-width:100%;" src="http://i657.photobucket.com/albums/uu299/vstromklr/2016/IMG_9487_zpswqq7yp3w.jpg"][/a]
[a href="http://s657.photobucket.com/user/vstromklr/media/2016/IMG_9488_zpsssj5fznx.jpg.html"]
[img style="max-width:100%;" src="http://i657.photobucket.com/albums/uu299/vstromklr/2016/IMG_9488_zpsssj5fznx.jpg"][/a]
[/quote]Where did you get them?
Red-Neck Trailer Supply. #319EZ-SS 336020 Stainless Steel Center Cap 3.19" DIA With Plug $8.88 EA
There's a local branch I can walk in for parts!
http://catalog.redneck-trailer.com/advancedwebpage.aspx?cg=277&cd=2&SBCatPage=
Quote from: @exploringcarolina" source="/post/19484/thread" timestamp="1457752647Red-Neck Trailer Supply. #319EZ-SS 336020 Stainless Steel Center Cap 3.19" DIA With Plug $8.88 EA
There's a local branch I can walk in for parts!
http://catalog.redneck-trailer.com/advancedwebpage.aspx?cg=277&cd=2&SBCatPage=
Thanks. I got my bearing seals from them. Great service.
[quote timestamp="1457634120" source="/post/19421/thread" author="@chuck893"][quote timestamp="1457624191" source="/post/19405/thread" author="@admin"]Luckily I think the QS line has been a relatively low priority for any changes. There isn't much to change and most of the products in it are already done in a very cost effective way. I'm guessing the QS's will be left alone unless they reach a point where they are dropped all together. In other words I'm thinking they are an all or thing line.[/quote]Thanks, Sean. That's the thing: with all the changes I worry that Quicksilver will simply be dumped, microscopic niche market and so forth. I've been mildly surprised (and disappointed) at the number of people who have glanced inside and sniffed, "Well! It's awfully industrial, isn't it?" Honestly, that smarts! Yes, she's spare, "spartan," but also (as we point out) there is nothing to rust, rot, or mildew, anywhere, except maybe the tent and mattresses. Maintenance consists of greasing the hubs about every 8,000 miles. We are on our second set of tires but the original tent. It's not a big deal for us; we will keep Rose until we just can't do it any more, then give her to our son and his family. Mostly it's a matter that we have been so proud of Rose and think other folks should have an opportunity to enjoy the line. It would be a crying shame if they just discontinued it as maybe being unprofitable. :P [/quote]I think that the auto industry may have more to say about the viability of the QS automotive camper line than LL does.
My wife and I are discovering quickly, while shopping for a new vehicle, that most new vehicles have a lower tow rating or none at all. As an example, a [a href="http://www.dodge.com/towing/D/vehicle_to_weight.jsp"]2009 Dodge Journey[/a] had a tow capacity of 3,500 lbs. A [a href="http://www.dodge.com/en/towing_payload/2016/"]2016 Dodge Journey[/a] is rated to a maximum of 2,500 lbs (smaller engine only 1,000 lbs). Most small SUVs and cars (cross overs included) have very limited or none existent tow capacities now.
I purchased my QS because it was within my car's tow capacity, when also factoring in gear and passengers. My wife agreed with me. Now if I had a larger tow vehicle to begin with, and I placed a QS beside a Jayco pop-up, chances are that my wife would have chosen the Jayco and I would have been forced to agree. Sleep in a place that looks like home or looks like a boat?
I would bet that we could see some major changes to the QS line in the not too distant future. Trailer brakes being the first major change, possibly even some smaller, yet more homier models. Now don't get me wrong, I am a very proud owner of my QS. Being able to find a perfect spot for it, pushing it by hand, without breaking a sweat, allows me to show off the trailer's real beauty. It's size to weight ratio, combined with no rust, no rot makes it the perfect generational camper.............but it has a cold and sterile interior factory look to it.
Just noticed there are two recent posts from LivinLite on their Facebook page. One is from March 28th and one yesterday. I am hoping that means they are ramping their online participation back up again.
[quote timestamp="1459358946" author="@djsamuel" source="/post/20051/thread"]Just noticed there are two recent posts from LivinLite on their Facebook page. One is from March 28th and one yesterday. I am hoping that means they are ramping their online participation back up again.
[/quote]Hope so..............