Not a campsite owner yet, but after some pretty obsessive research in last few weeks I've decided that our first TT will be a Camplite. The allure of a structure substantially less prone to rot and rust makes swallowing the purchase cost a little easier. Hopefully soon...
I did a lot of tent and pop up camping as a kid and want my son to share those experiences I remember (and get away from the house more).
Finding a dealer around here was rough - then again, finding ANY RV dealers in north east NJ is tough. Ended up driving 2hrs to a dealer in PA to walk through 4 TTs they had on the lot. Would've have been nice to find someone closer for service, but 2hrs is not bad at all.
In the end, we're looking at a 2014 21BHS that's on the lot for $33k - to be towed by my 2012 5.7l Tundra. This would be my first TT and the first time I have towed anything beyond a 15ft landscape trailer (which was 20yrs ago). I'd be insincere if I didn't admit I am a bit anxious about backing up a 21ft trailer.
I have a million questions - but I'll start with the big one:
Take off the lot for negotiating power, or pay a more and wait a while longer for a built to order?
The TT on the lot had some minor cosmetic damage - a tear in a seat cover, some scuffs from being kicked low inside and what looked like "wallpaper" lifting at the front above the queen bed. It appears to have most options installed, however, and is 95% what we are looking for.
Off the lot advantages in my misinformed view:
- I am making a really huge assumption that if it has been on the lot a while any leaks would have been noticed by the dealer by now and fixed
- negotiating power to get what appears to be a late 2013/early 2014 trailer off the lot and make room for the 2015s
- needing a hitch and TT accessories could possibly get some thrown in to close the deal
- Take it home and use it this season
Off the lot disadvantages:
- not 100% what I would want...but the things that are missing are not huge. I like the new placement of the switches on the kitchen wall, shower skylight for headroom, and I'm not sure if it has the off road package (I have a TRD Tundra) - relatively trivial things in the end I think.
- not "new" and color does not match my truck (Waaaaaahhhh!)
- possibly newer, better quality components in new?
- weathering of old trailer could mean minor maintenance issues sooner?
- not going to have a lot of leverage with a built to order and probably spend thousands over the lot trailer
Is there any real good reason not to buy off the lot? My reasons seem like things I would get over real quick if I saved a couple thousand :)
Thanks for letting me ramble -
Very quickly...
The price in the ad below is the price we paid for our 2014, though admittedly it was built in March 2013.
http://www.sunnyislandrv.com/rv/rockford+il/livinlite+traveltrailer/793/livin+lite+camplite+21bhs
More tomorrow - it's late!
[quote source="/post/974/thread" timestamp="1400112798" author="@nonproductive"]In the end, we're looking at a 2014 21BHS that's on the lot for $33k - to be towed by my 2012 5.7l Tundra. This would be my first TT and the first time I have towed anything beyond a 15ft landscape trailer (which was 20yrs ago). I'd be insincere if I didn't admit I am a bit anxious about backing up a 21ft trailer.[/quote]
We're towing the same trailer with the same engine (in an Sequoia) and it's a great combo. Just practice backing up in a vacant parking lot with no obstructions. The price seems a bit high, but shipping seems to be a big factor for these- the closer you are to Indiana, the less expensive it will be. Our custom order to a dealer in Idaho still had $3k in shipping.
[quote source="/post/974/thread" timestamp="1400112798" author="@nonproductive"]Take off the lot for negotiating power, or pay a more and wait a while longer for a built to order?
The TT on the lot had some minor cosmetic damage - a tear in a seat cover, some scuffs from being kicked low inside and what looked like "wallpaper" lifting at the front above the queen bed. It appears to have most options installed, however, and is 95% what we are looking for.
Off the lot advantages in my misinformed view:
- I am making a really huge assumption that if it has been on the lot a while any leaks would have been noticed by the dealer by now and fixed
- negotiating power to get what appears to be a late 2013/early 2014 trailer off the lot and make room for the 2015s
- needing a hitch and TT accessories could possibly get some thrown in to close the deal
- Take it home and use it this season
Off the lot disadvantages:
- not 100% what I would want...but the things that are missing are not huge. I like the new placement of the switches on the kitchen wall, shower skylight for headroom, and I'm not sure if it has the off road package (I have a TRD Tundra) - relatively trivial things in the end I think.
- not "new" and color does not match my truck (Waaaaaahhhh!)
- possibly newer, better quality components in new?
- weathering of old trailer could mean minor maintenance issues sooner?
- not going to have a lot of leverage with a built to order and probably spend thousands over the lot trailer
Is there any real good reason not to buy off the lot? My reasons seem like things I would get over real quick if I saved a couple thousand :)
[/quote]
I think your breakdown is pretty accurate and only you can say what it's worth. Just keep in mind that some options can always be changed later (for a price), but others are fairly permanent (like the color, the off-road package, the skylight and switch placement). I wouldn't worry about the newer, better quality components... the major appliances have remained the same in most RV's for decades. Same thing with the weathering... these things are built to last a long time. But don't count on the dealer noticing and fixing anything. Go over it with a fine toothed comb and have them fix it before you buy it.
We had to order because there wasn't a 21BHS anywhere close. I'm not sure what I would do in your situation. Keep us posted on what you decide.
[p]We purchased our 21BHS off the lot. We also were able to talk him down quite a bit. We were happy with the options and knew what we were going to end up with. The camper has been great so far. I wouldn't worry about degradation on the lot. Go how it is equipped and the price you can get.[/p][p]
[/p][p]We were successful in talking him down by searching the Internet for lower prices from RV dealers (not the online dealers), emailing them to our salesman and telling him that we'll just drive for the much lower pics. He took care of the rest and was able to match our lowest price.[/p]
[font face="arial" size="3"]Nonproductive,
Your question and situation are ones we all went through. For me it was easy because I wanted some things that just had to be done at the factory. I knew I wanted a beefed up bumper that had to be fabricated during the build. I included a drawing and LL delivered perfectly. If you ever want to haul bikes on the back now is the time.
The shower skylight is really nice and there is evidence LL is including it standard on the newest models. Don't know, but it should be done at the factory.
The factory water heater is propane only. The propane/120V WH can be added as a retrofit if you want it, but it's going to cost $$. Tinkeringtechie is doing just that, but it takes some expertise.
Same for the off road package if you want it. The axle is the same, but it's mounted at a different angle to give about 3" more ground clearance. The wheels and tires are different. Mod later just costs $$.
Extra sockets, switch placement, etc. are noise level and can either be accepted or modified later.
As for the few thousand dollars for the new camper just as you want it, and old philosopher once said " Do it right the first time and you'll never be dissatisfied. Do it wrong to save a few bucks etc....."[/font]
These are awesome replies and I really appreciate that you took the time to help trya nd get my head on straight about this purchase.
Fast Eddie / DJSamuel - I actually took a print out of an ad from that same dealer with me and asked why the price was $5k higher. Dealers response was that it was mostly shipping fees. Honestly, that is the lowest price I've seen them and I would be happy to just meet in the middle on it and feel like I got away ok. If they won't come down on the price at all I'd be happy if I can get them to throw in some of the essentials that I will need...since they seem to add up quickly as well. I'm going to try and get back over there either this weekend or next with some cash in hand and try the "Oh well, I was willing to buy - but not at that price...I'll get it from Illinois for so much less that it's worth driving out there for it" tactic.
TinkeringTechie / CharlieM - In thinking about it last night and this morning the only two Options I really feel are missing in the lot TT are the Shower skylight (I'm 6' and felt a little snug in the shower) and the off road package simply for the extra clearance. The switch placement is nice but not a deal breaker... I am very much an advocate of "do it right the 1st time" and am leaning towards a special order at the moment. That said, the 7-8 week lead time optimistically quoted by the sales guy has me concerned that I would end up receiving it just in time to winterize it - and not have a solid chance to find any issues.
When factory ordered, did you do it through a dealer or arrange with dealer for delivery and call Livinlite directly for what you wanted?
Having not spent much time camping in a trailer - is having the extra 3" clearance from the off road package a necessity if we don't plan to do much camping outside of state parks and campgrounds (for the most part at least)?
[quote source="/post/989/thread" timestamp="1400173063" author="@nonproductive"]
TinkeringTechie / CharlieM - In thinking about it last night and this morning the only two Options I really feel are missing in the lot TT are the Shower skylight (I'm 6' and felt a little snug in the shower) and the off road package simply for the extra clearance. The switch placement is nice but not a deal breaker... I am very much an advocate of "do it right the 1st time" and am leaning towards a special order at the moment. That said, the 7-8 week lead time optimistically quoted by the sales guy has me concerned that I would end up receiving it just in time to winterize it - and not have a solid chance to find any issues.
When factory ordered, did you do it through a dealer or arrange with dealer for delivery and call Livinlite directly for what you wanted?
Having not spent much time camping in a trailer - is having the extra 3" clearance from the off road package a necessity if we don't plan to do much camping outside of state parks and campgrounds (for the most part at least)? [/quote][font size="3"][font face="arial"]On the skylight I would definitely want that. I'm 5'9" and I wanted it. It also adds light and openness to the shower--no more cave effect, b[/font][font face="arial"]ut the skylight does cut down a bit on thermal insulation. The skylight could be added afterwards IF a competent dealer can find the proper sized skylight and IF LL did not change the roof structure to accommodate it. I don't know about the second item. Tinkeringtechie is our resident roof expert right now. Your point on later delivery vs finding problems is valid, but not the end of the world either. I went with the off road package just because I could and my experience with a very low previous trailer made me leary of gas station enterances and other such bumps/inclines. However the CL has loads of ground clearance and has been no problem even with 2 bikes hanging the back. The light truck tires are nice, but that's easily handled later. After all, you're not taking the CL on a jeep trail.
On your other question, check your email for my Private Message.
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[quote source="/post/986/thread" timestamp="1400167212" author="@charliem"][font face="arial" size="3"]The factory water heater is propane only. The propane/120V WH can be added as a retrofit if you want it, but it's going to cost $$. Tinkeringtechie is doing just that, but it takes some expertise.
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I just finished the swap and will post some pictures probably this weekend. Physically swapping the unit was quite easy. There are just a few wires, a gas connection, and two water connections. They used a foam gasket instead of the normal butyl tape which was a pain to remove, but not impossible. The hardest part was actually running an additional length of Romex from the breaker panel to the water heater. There's a piece of conduit running from the breaker to the kitchen wall, but it already has two circuits going through it. Adding the third was really tricky because the conduit has a curvy path beneath the trailer. I made two attempts at pushing the wire through, but eventually succeeded by pushing a single scrap wire through and then pulling the Romex through with it. My arms were quite sore that day :P . If you really want the 2-way water heater I'd recommend just ordering it that way. I really wanted it too, so I did order it that way but the dealer messed up. Since I still really wanted it, I made it happen myself :)
[quote source="/post/989/thread" timestamp="1400173063" author="@nonproductive"]TinkeringTechie / CharlieM - In thinking about it last night and this morning the only two Options I really feel are missing in the lot TT are the Shower skylight (I'm 6' and felt a little snug in the shower) and the off road package simply for the extra clearance. The switch placement is nice but not a deal breaker... I am very much an advocate of "do it right the 1st time" and am leaning towards a special order at the moment. That said, the 7-8 week lead time optimistically quoted by the sales guy has me concerned that I would end up receiving it just in time to winterize it - and not have a solid chance to find any issues.
[/quote]I'm also 6' and I don't think I could shower without the skylight. It makes a huge difference. I can actually raise the shower head above my head (imagine that) instead of having to duck beneath it. It also feels like your'e showering outside :)
[quote source="/post/991/thread" timestamp="1400176113" author="@charliem"]Tinkeringtechie is our resident roof expert right now. Your point on later delivery vs finding problems is valid, but not the end of the world either. I went with the off road package just because I could and my experience with a very low previous trailer made me leary of gas station enterances and other such bumps/inclines. However the CL has loads of ground clearance and has been no problem even with 2 bikes hanging the back. The light truck tires are nice, but that's easily handled later.
[/quote]
I wouldn't call myself an expert quite yet, but I can tell you that the "skylight" is literally a hole with a piece of plastic glued/screwed on top. No trim, no fancy hardware, just a curved sheet of plastic. It looks crude from the top, but it gets the job done. The pretty part is on the inside where they've trimmed out the interior opening. The top part could be added easily later, but I'm not sure if they had to restructure the roof supports to make room for the opening.
For me, the "offroad package" is for ferry loading. There are a few ferries around here on the less traveled routes (the ones used for camping) that have primitive ramps. If you happen to hit one of those ferries at low tide you'll face a significant drop into the ferry. We scraped loading our previous trailer and have since only scheduled ferry trips according to the tides. It will be nice to not have to worry about that with the new rig.
Hadn't thought about Gas station ramps or ferry loading...both good points and good examples of every day driving where that 3" would help.
The more I read the responses from you guys, the more convinced I am to Order exactly what I want. Even if it takes the extra time...our winters seem to start later and later lately - so I probably wouldn't have to worry about really cold nights until November and could do a few "driveway" campouts to make sure eveything other than black water system were in order. Can run 30A off my generator, fresh water and even grey water if I keep soap out of it can be drained into the ground I guess...
My whole purpose of looking at LivinLite TTs is because it will last many years... the rational decision is to get the options I want. Just for the heck of it, called the dealer today and asked what the price difference would be for a factory order and he said "about the same." Now I know I could negotiate him down on the lot trailer, but I'd be willing to bet I could get him down some on the built to order as well.
hrmmmm... glad I joined these forums before signing anything. Much to think about before the pen gets uncapped.
[quote source="/post/995/thread" timestamp="1400181229" author="@nonproductive"]Just for the heck of it, called the dealer today and asked what the price difference would be for a factory order and he said "about the same." Now I know I could negotiate him down on the lot trailer, but I'd be willing to bet I could get him down some on the built to order as well.
[/quote]I think the dealers like factory orders just as much as lot purchases because it doesn't cost them anything except the time to facilitate the deal. They don't need to store it, clean it, clean it again after a bunch of people walk through it... move it around the lot 10 times as they rotate their inventory around. I think factory orders are a win-win situation. Now only if we could talk LL into direct internet sales we'd be set....
[quote source="/post/996/thread" timestamp="1400187328" author="@tinkeringtechie"][quote source="/post/995/thread" timestamp="1400181229" author="@nonproductive"]Just for the heck of it, called the dealer today and asked what the price difference would be for a factory order and he said "about the same." Now I know I could negotiate him down on the lot trailer, but I'd be willing to bet I could get him down some on the built to order as well.
[/quote]I think the dealers like factory orders just as much as lot purchases because it doesn't cost them anything except the time to facilitate the deal. They don't need to store it, clean it, clean it again after a bunch of people walk through it... move it around the lot 10 times as they rotate their inventory around. I think factory orders are a win-win situation. Now only if we could talk LL into direct internet sales we'd be set....[/quote][p]The also don't have to carry the finance on the thing while its on their lot. Also, some places have local taxes on the value of inventory. So a deal that keeps the wholesale/dealer cost off their operating line of credit or however they're doing it, and never hits their inventory to be taxed, can be very attractive deal.[/p][p]
[/p][p]In the end, np, which might you resent more ? Paying $3k more than you might have, offset by getting exactly what you want ? Or sitting in your $30k rig constantly pining away for the little things you know you could have gotten exactly your way ?[/p][p]
[/p][p]I'm not advocating a decision - just trying to put perspective on how badly you want the exact fit to your requirements.[/p][p]
[/p][p]Since hot water is about the only thing I use propane for (we cook outside on a Coleman so as not to foul the interior with grease, and we don't boondock), the 2-way water heater is extraneous. Only YOU can decide if you feel that way, and about every custom detail on your list.[/p][p]
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[font size="3"][font face="arial"]Nonproductive,
I totally agree with Tinkeringtechie and Pinstriper. It was brought home to me when I custom ordered my first camper. Over the phone the dealer said "I can give you a really good price because I won't have any money in it". No interest, no tax, no cleaning, no insurance, etc. Guys, it looks like we're nudging Nonpro into a CL just the way he wants it :D.
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After a lengthy chat with the wife last night, we decided that it makes more sense to order what we want. It didn't hurt that I was able to say "Well, a bunch of guys with more experience than me think this is the way to go as well...and that we could still probably negotiate the price" :)
I'm going to start making some calls to see if I can find a closer dealer to work with. There is a Camping World RV rental place *really* close by - like 10 min away (that I found yesterday by accident). Kind of hopeful that I could somehow arrange delivery to them even if it was for a small fee. Not holding my breath on it, if that doesn't work, an occasional day trip isn't so bad...gives me an excuse to take a day off work ;)
[quote source="/post/1009/thread" author="@nonproductive" timestamp="1400246085"]After a lengthy chat with the wife last night, we decided that it makes more sense to order what we want. It didn't hurt that I was able to say "Well, a bunch of guys with more experience than me think this is the way to go as well...and that we could still probably negotiate the price" :)
I'm going to start making some calls to see if I can find a closer dealer to work with. There is a Camping World RV rental place *really* close by - like 10 min away (that I found yesterday by accident). Kind of hopeful that I could somehow arrange delivery to them even if it was for a small fee. Not holding my breath on it, if that doesn't work, an occasional day trip isn't so bad...gives me an excuse to take a day off work ;)
[/quote][font size="3"][font face="arial"]Nonproductive,
I'll answer your recent questions on the public forum as others may be interested. For the bumper I drew up what I wanted and they followed it exactly. At least one other member has asked for and gotten the exact same mod. Really, it's close to the extended rear platform LL already offers so I think it was easy. Click on the figure to make it bigger:
[attachment id="939" thumbnail="1"]
Checking out Camping World is an excellent idea. Please report back if they will facilitate the deal. One of the good things we anticipated with the Thor acquisition was more dealers. CW is a Thor dealer for other products so we continue to hope. You may not get the lowest price, but you would get full service and the much wider network.
As for wind, I don't worry much about normal winds. The roof vents are pretty low profile and they lock down tightly. However, we do have hurricanes and I do worry about them and I can't do anything about them. Maybe move back to Colorado.
And I'm glad you and your wife agree. You'll not be sorry.
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Good stuff, thanks for the diagram. I've reached out to Camping World to see if they can facilitate a factory order - Waiting for a call back and will report back when I hear from them
Heard back from Camping World...sort of. Dealer 2hrs from me: 1st call I was told "Are you coming in? I can check with someone and get back to you..." Never heard back. Second call: "Why don't you come in and we can talk about it? There are other trailers that I'm sure you'd like..." Email to Camping World Customer Service: "You'd really have to check with your local dealer - we don't deal with sales."
Currently waiting on a reply from LivinLite to see if I can work with any other dealer closer by that is not listed on their "authorized dealer" list.
Well, after no reply from LivinLite on dealers I decided to play hooky from work today and drove out to the one dealer I know has Livinlite models. Wandered the lot for a good hour with the wife and looked at the 21BHS again, 16BHB, a 2012 Aerolite hybrid (that honestly looked like it was about to fall apart), a 26ft 5th wheel (forget brand) and several pop ups...
Had a "what kind of camping are we really going to do for the next few years" chat with my wife while sitting in the 21BHS...and left as the owner of a 2015 Quicksilver 10 PopUp that we will take possession of on Saturday. :)
The sales guy said "Boy...talk about 180 degrees... From mobile hotel room to tent on wheels. You didn't even go for the fully equipped pop ups!"
I'm happy, it's the kind of camping I remember from my childhood and figure I still have a few more years (maybe) before I'm going to grumble about walking to the bathroom in the middle of the night. The wife...well...we'll see. She pretty much said she'll try it for a year or two before she gives it a thumbs up or down. She's worried about security and not having a fridge more than the bathroom though. Who knows, I might be trading in the PUP then for a 2016 21BHS (or convince her that keeping both is a good idea)
Thanks again for all of the advice here, it's been truly helpful.
Yep. That's what it always comes down to. "What are your real requirements ?" I had to have this talk with my first wife (she hates it when I introduce her that way) - What do you want your lifestyle to be ? Describe a "normal" day.
It really helps separate the bling from the necessary. Some stuff is neat. Especially on other peoples' RV's.
I would have been more than happy with a pop-up. After bicycle and motorcycle camping, it would have felt like staying at the Ritz.
But wifey had two requirements:
1 - More security from 2 and 4-legged varmints than a pop-up allowed, and...
2 - The ability to go camping with both the kids and grandkids, making the ability to sleep 6 a prerequisite.
So the 21BHS fit her criteria perfectly.
Yep. We figured most of our camping is going to be me, wife, 7yr old son and maybe one of my nephews. Primarily 2 or 3 night stays in places within a 4hr drive.
Decided that for now at least, we didn't need everything that the 21BHS had to offer. As much as we loved it, it was overkill.
That said, point 1 in your list, FastEddie, is going to be the sticking point I think.
- Wife wants to camp at places near attractions and go for day trips. I reminded her that there's no way to lock up a PUP and anything of value had to come with us.
- She's concerned about our son dropping food and attracting unwanted night time visitors (besides me that is ;) )
- My son has aleady expressed a concern about bears - which while mostly unfounded where we'd be camping - it doesn't mean he'll sleep any better (at least in the beginning)
But in the end she agreed that this was the best way to get back into camping. If we find we are going many weekends and want to take longer trips - then the 21BHS will be a lot easier to rationalize. The PUP is paid in full, so we can trade it in towards something if we go that route and offset the price some too. My only fear is that Thor will start to skimp on the alluminum in future coaches.
np, that's where we started. Too old/lazy/soft for tent camping anymore, "Let's get a popup !" Quick setup, sleeping off the ground. More rain-resistant than a groundcloth.
Then I realized if it does rain, you're folding up a wet popup and have to set it up as soon as you get home to dry it out. And if it's raining while we're camping, it's probably raining when we get home, too. And the dogs will react to more noises outside than in a hard sided trailer.
And while we're pulling a trailer, we really oughta have a toilet for middle of the night. So we may as well have the shower, too. And the TV. And air conditioning. Etc. Etc. Etc.
It's a slippery slope working up the cost curve.
Totally a slippery slope :)
I am sure there will be days we complain about having to fold up/down and days we will praise the "screen room" like atmosphere...
I'm already planning on picking up a cartridge potty for any late night toilet needs...and maybe a propane hot water heater...and maybe a heater...
;)
We emphatically plan to never use the propane furnace, opting instead for a 1kw "cube" space heater (electric). Works a treat.
[quote source="/post/1155/thread" timestamp="1400726013" author="@pinstriper"]We emphatically plan to never use the propane furnace, opting instead for a 1kw "cube" space heater (electric). Works a treat.[/quote]We only use the propane heater when we're boondocking. If we have hookups and it's cold, this is what we use:
[a href="http://www.amazon.com/Holmes-HFH2986-U-Whisper-Quiet-Heater/dp/B00094CBWC/ref=sr_1_10?s=home-garden&ie=UTF8&qid=1400727538&sr=1-10&keywords=space+heater"]http://www.amazon.com/Holmes-HFH2986-U-Whisper-Quiet-Heater/dp/B00094CBWC/ref=sr_1_10?s=home-garden&ie=UTF8&qid=1400727538&sr=1-10&keywords=space+heater[/a]
Yeah, I'm not real keen on a propane heater running in a tent camper whir I slept...or rather, tried to sleep :)
Posted a pic of new camper in introduction forum and day 1 (tow home and set up) impressions in QS forum.
looking forward to getting out for a weekend now :)