Good morning everyone. Here goes my first post. We put a deposit down on a 21Bhs last week and are awaiting the final P.O from our dealer. We went with the dark blue exterior and the alpine interior. We can't wait for delivery in May. Our third child is due in April and the new Rv will go along way in helping us transport all of the required items that we seem to bring with us. The whole family is excited. We paid a little extra for the Livin Lite brand because we are sold on the build quality and the aluminum structure. We spoke with the factory and have confirmed that we have the old style aluminum floor vs the new composite style that is coming soon. Has anyone looked at adding spray foam to the under belly as a way of adding extra insulation? We are thinking of getting the dealer to this on our RV sometime this summer or fall after we we it a bit.
Thank you guys for being such a good resource for information.
[font size="3"]DO NOT pay for the factory spray on "insulation". It is a very thin, poorly applied coating designed for the high temperature auto market. It doesn't even seal the air/water intrusion. Several of us learned a $1000 lesson the hard way. As for the dealer applied version, depending on material and thickness, it might help somewhat, but existing gas, water, and electrical installations mike it difficult to apply afterwards. So far the best insulation fix has been inside such as floor coverings.
Your words "...vs the new composite style that is coming soon." are scary. Can you elaborate on how the factory or dealer phrased that?
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Hey there, I am not sure if my reply went through so here goes again.
Thanks for the advice regarding the floor coverings I think I will try the inside method to start with. As far as the new floor design goes it sounds like it is still being engineered. I didn't get a diagram but the way it was described to me is a similar construction to the walls. From the bottom up there is a vapour barrier followed by a layer of Azdel then an aluminum tube structure with foam block in between. The next layer is Azdel , then the vinyl flooring goes in. This could change I guess and I have no idea when it is planned to be rolled out. I can see there are benefits to having more insulation in the floor provided it is strong enough. They were very specific about the floor still having no wood which I think we all appreciate.
[font size="3"]Thanks, Brado.
It sounds like they're going down the right track. I've said all along the floor could be redesigned to incorporate composites, making a warmer floor, and still have no wood. If true that will add greatly to the CL appeal. The floor and the crappy probe type tank monitor were the two major remaining flaws in the CL design, IMO. Let's hope for the best.
Search this forum for lots of options we've used on the floor all the way from bunny slippers to throw rugs to interlocking rubber tiles.
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I am actually surprised you are open to the idea of composites. I was expecting the die hard legacy buyers would favour the old style floor. I struggled with it to be honest I was debating whether I should wait or go ahead with the existing construction. I suspect there will be gives and takes on both sides so in the end I decided to pull the trigger so we could start enjoying our new toy.
[font size="3"]No surprise there. I am and always have been for new materials and methods. Just the engineer in me ;) . I'm against cheap and wood. All campers will eventually leak and the problem with hidden wood is it leads to hidden rot. Even the new wood cabinet faces aren't the end of the world because they are exposed and non structural. They just add to weight. But I do have a gripe with the coming TPO rubber roof. That's cheap, vulnerable, and life limited.
Welcome to our forum and enjoy your new 21BHS. Camp on.
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I am a little surprised at the description of the new floor design. It should not have any water intrusion issues, and provides insulation. But it sounds terribly complicated and expensive to build with four hand laid and one fabricated and welded layer. The boating industry would mold it in one piece in fiberglass with a PVC or similar foam core.
But when you are used to working with aluminum, you work with aluminum.
David
[font size="3"]But David,
What would be the weight of the molded boat approach vs the described AL/Azdel version?
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It might weigh a little more, but foam cored fiberglass laminate is relatively light. It would roughly be 1/8" glass, 3/4" foam and 1/8" glass. Maybe a couple of thick stringers to add rigidity. I would guess that a 21'x7' floor could be made in cored fiberglass and weigh less than 100 lbs. Sure would be simpler than Azdel/aluminum tubing/insulating block/Azdel.
David
Hey guys. I got the impression that the new floor would look something like what coachmen is using on their apex nano line. Here's a link to a pic on their website. Obviously LL would use Azdel instead of wood but the concept seems pretty similar. The big question is whether you guys think this kind of design will be strong enough to last 10 plus years. I just had a buddy over last night for dinner and he told me that in BC the biggest problem they have comes from rotting wood in the floors. This is a real problem after a few years. What I like about the LL trailers is that they seem to be built a little tougher than most RVs. The current floor system may have issues with insulation and letting in some water but I feel pretty confident it will last a long time. What do you think?
http://www.coachmenrv.com/product-details.aspx?LineID=62&Image=11203&Destination=Gallery#Main
[font size="3"]No question the AL floor will last a lifetime. Yours or mine. The two big failures in campers are roofs and floors. Wood used in either is hidden from view and will rot from any small undetected leak. Even showers and water spilled on the floor will eventually rot a wooden floor. [/font][font size="3"]I've inadvertently dumped large quantities of water on my rubber tile covered floor. No problem. Wipe it up, maybe lift a tile or two, air it out, done. No rot and no worries. [/font][font size="3"]The strength of the laminated composite floor depends on it's design and construction. Unknown for now. I personally like welded rectangular AL tubing structure in the floor. It still conducts some heat, but won't warp or loosen with travel.
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The main concern I would have with the new floor "laminated" concept is - the typical wear and tear of an RV floor will definitely reveal any inherent design weaknesses. It might take awhile, but if there's a path to a problem the floor will find it.
Makes sense to me. Thanks for the input today.
If Livin'Lite is considering azdel in a floor assembly I would hope they'll be using a higher density version of it than what they use on the walls. I installed a battery monitor by cutting a hole in the azdel. Inspecting the piece cut out I was surprised to find it is just skinned foam: Thin printed vinyl skin on the exposed side and a non woven (polyester or olefin ?) matting on the backside. It is pretty flimsy - certainly not capable of taking much of a point load. I know that the azdel technology is also used to make automotive headliners - which seem stronger than the azdel in Camplite walls - so maybe Livin'Lite have a different azdel to use in the floors. Time may tell...
The composite may make it harder to mount anything to the floor as I did with my telescopic table mount.
I've often wondered if an ACM - aluminum frame and XPS foam - ACM "sandwich" would be a good alternative for the floor. (ACM is aluminum composite material consisting of two thin skins of aluminum over a polyethylene core). The ACM could be bonded to the aluminum frame with structural adhesives and/or VHB tape.