I saw some discussion so I thought I would start a new thread. I would like to install the Andersen WDH on my Camplite 21BHS, my Ford Explorer needs WD help. I don't want to move the propane tanks, will it fit right out of the box or do I need to add links to the chains? Any other thoughts or pictures would be great.
Thanks, Steve
[quote source="/post/968/thread" timestamp="1400034192" author="@cl21bhs"]my Ford Explorer needs WD help[/quote]
From what I've heard, weight distribution is not the strongest feature of the Andersen hitch. It's better at sway and bounce control. If you're looking to actually distribute weight then there are better options (certainly for the $$)
[quote source="/post/968/thread" timestamp="1400034192" author="@cl21bhs"]I don't want to move the propane tanks, will it fit right out of the box or do I need to add links to the chains?[/quote]It would be much easier to move the propane tanks than to add links. The Andersen manual states that you can remove links, but does not mention adding them. Just out of curiosity, why don't you want to move the tanks?
Here's their manual for reference:
[a href="http://www.trailercommander.com/uploads/1/6/2/4/16240110/weight_distribution_installation_manual.pdf"]http://www.trailercommander.com/uploads/1/6/2/4/16240110/weight_distribution_installation_manual.pdf[/a]
I like the simple setup and light weight of the Andersen, part of the problem is the tongue weight of the 21bhs is about 550 lbs. It looks like you would have to move the tanks toward the camper and move the batteries forward, which can be done, I would rather not have to extend wires and drill more holes in the frame.
Does anyone use another WD on the 21bhs that fits out of the box?
[quote source="/post/976/thread" timestamp="1400121108" author="@cl21bhs"]I like the simple setup and light weight of the Andersen, part of the problem is the tongue weight of the 21bhs is about 550 lbs. It looks like you would have to move the tanks toward the camper and move the batteries forward, which can be done, I would rather not have to extend wires and drill more holes in the frame.
Does anyone use another WD on the 21bhs that fits out of the box?[/quote]
If the tongue weight is 550lbs then I'm not sure if weight distribution will help much with the Explorer. The Andersen hitch itself weighs 60lbs, so that would put you at 610lbs, which is 110lbs over your limit. For my WD hitch I moved the tanks forward with the eventual goal of putting a larger battery/storage box behind it. I believe Charlie was able to install a round-bar version of the E2 without moving anything. I think this is the hitch he used:
[a href="http://www.fastwaytrailer.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=4&products_id=15&zenid=667a9deb9d28eff971c356735ab925a1"]http://www.fastwaytrailer.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=4&products_id=15&zenid=667a9deb9d28eff971c356735ab925a1[/a]
When I installed our Andersen on our 21BHS I added a link to each side and mounted the brackets just behind the tank brackets. I just used the threaded links available at a place like Lowes.
I would agree with tinkeringtechie, weight distribution is not a strong point of the Andersen. It would probably handle it, but you're really going to be tightening down on the bushings. Did you measure your tongue weight? Livinlite shows a tongue weight of 250 lbs, still less than 10% of the dry weight. Seems low, but using that percentage, even fully loaded yup shouldn't exceed 500pounds. Of course it depends on how you load it.
[quote source="/post/979/thread" timestamp="1400125078" author="@tinkeringtechie"][quote source="/post/976/thread" timestamp="1400121108" author="@cl21bhs"]Does anyone use another WD on the 21bhs that fits out of the box?[/quote]If the tongue weight is 550lbs then I'm not sure if weight distribution will help much with the Explorer. The Andersen hitch itself weighs 60lbs, so that would put you at 610lbs, which is 110lbs over your limit. For my WD hitch I moved the tanks forward with the eventual goal of putting a larger battery/storage box behind it. I believe Charlie was able to install a round-bar version of the E2 without moving anything. I think this is the hitch he used:
[a href="http://www.fastwaytrailer.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=4&products_id=15&zenid=667a9deb9d28eff971c356735ab925a1"]http://www.fastwaytrailer.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=4&products_id=15&zenid=667a9deb9d28eff971c356735ab925a1[/a]
[/quote][font face="arial" size="3"]Yes, the 600/6000 pound round bar E2 WDH will fit without moving tanks. I installed one on a 2014 21RBS with dual tanks and dual batteries. The sway bar brackets clamp (no drilling) on just forward of the tanks. The E2 instructions allow the brackets as close as 20" from the ball if the tongue weight is less than 800#. My 21RBS tongue weight is 525-550# loaded depending on w/wo bikes on back and if there is any water in the tanks. The 21BHS should be similar.
[/font]
[quote source="/post/982/thread" timestamp="1400153884" author="@djsamuel"]Livinlite shows a tongue weight of 250 lbs, still less than 10% of the dry weight. Seems low, but using that percentage, even fully loaded yup shouldn't exceed 500pounds. Of course it depends on how you load it.[/quote]I don't think their dry weight includes propane tanks or batteries. Once those are added you'll be well into the 10% range. I think your tongue weight will depend heavily on what you put in the forward storage compartment and how much is in your grey/black tanks (since they're behind the axle).
[quote source="/post/987/thread" timestamp="1400168807" author="@tinkeringtechie"][quote source="/post/982/thread" timestamp="1400153884" author="@djsamuel"]Livinlite shows a tongue weight of 250 lbs, still less than 10% of the dry weight. Seems low, but using that percentage, even fully loaded yup shouldn't exceed 500pounds. Of course it depends on how you load it.[/quote]I don't think their dry weight includes propane tanks or batteries. Once those are added you'll be well into the 10% range. I think your tongue weight will depend heavily on what you put in the forward storage compartment and how much is in your grey/black tanks (since they're behind the axle).[/quote][p]That last is an important point, I've discovered. Our first trip out, the dealer had filled the fresh tanks, which are in front of the axle. I drained off all but 5 gallons or so - just enough to rinse/flush at the dump station, so as to save weight. First trip we had very little bounce, but the second trip we felt a lot more bounce, which I suspected we were light on the tongue weight. I added about 10 gallons to the fresh tank while at the campsite, and the return was might smoother.[/p][p]
[/p]
Thanks for all the ideas, I am going to try the Andersen because it does not weigh as much as other WD setups. I will keep you posted.
Steve
[quote source="/post/1102/thread" timestamp="1400553049" author="@cl21bhs"]Thanks for all the ideas, I am going to try the Andersen because it does not weigh as much as other WD setups. I will keep you posted.
Steveif [/quote]Please let us know how it works out. If you could take some measurements also that would be great. I have yet to find an Andersen review that included numbers.
I use the Andersen on my VRV and it works pretty well. I had to add a link but it takes a whole minute to do that. I have done tons and tons of reading about the Andersen, and it's true that it doesn't distribute weight as well as the traditional type WDH's. Even so, it works for me pretty well even with around 800# TW. I didn't weigh yet, but it tows pretty well with my F150.
I'm wondering what Andersen's take is on adding links. If they don't mention it in the manual I'm guessing it's for a reason. Maybe the "quick links" don't support the same weight? Might be worth an email to them to see what they think.
[quote source="/post/1195/thread" timestamp="1401074694" author="@tinkeringtechie"]I'm wondering what Andersen's take is on adding links. If they don't mention it in the manual I'm guessing it's for a reason. Maybe the "quick links" don't support the same weight? Might be worth an email to them to see what they think.[/quote]I can't speak for Andersen, but I seem to remember reading in one of the forums that they are okay with adding or subtracting links. Of course, you would want the proper link rated for the correct weight. I think my quick links are rated at 4,000#.
[quote source="/post/1209/thread" timestamp="1401130982" author="@vrvinmo"][quote source="/post/1195/thread" timestamp="1401074694" author="@tinkeringtechie"]I'm wondering what Andersen's take is on adding links. If they don't mention it in the manual I'm guessing it's for a reason. Maybe the "quick links" don't support the same weight? Might be worth an email to them to see what they think.[/quote]I can't speak for Andersen, but I seem to remember reading in one of the forums that they are okay with adding or subtracting links. Of course, you would want the proper link rated for the correct weight. I think my quick links are rated at 4,000#.
[/quote]
It may have been on their web site or via email. Somewhere I got it from Andersen that it was OK to add a link.
I called Andersen and they said it was ok to add links, I told them about 4 to 6 inches. They were concerned if you removed more than a couple of links. I plan to order this weekend and will update with data and pictures once installed.
The actual tongue weight of the 21 bhs with dual propane tanks, battery and a total camper weight (with gear and stuff) of 4,200 lbs is 575 lbs. This is based on my camper that I just had on the truck scale.
I purchased and installed the Andersen wd hitch, it does not transfer enough weight ( I know you guys told me so) and I had sway in the TV that I did not have before using the Andersen wd hitch, really not sure what is happening. I am probably going to try another wd hitch.
[quote source="/post/2517/thread" timestamp="1407899282" author="@cl21bhs"]The actual tongue weight of the 21 bhs with dual propane tanks, battery and a total camper weight (with gear and stuff) of 4,200 lbs is 575 lbs. This is based on my camper that I just had on the truck scale.
I purchased and installed the Andersen wd hitch, it does not transfer enough weight ( I know you guys told me so) and I had sway in the TV that I did not have before using the Andersen wd hitch, really not sure what is happening. I am probably going to try another wd hitch.[/quote][p]That doesn't make sense to me. Did you weigh before and after? What are the GAWF and GAWR before and after weight transfer? [/p][p]
[/p][p]How many threads do you have showing after you tighten the nuts? [/p][p]
[/p][p]Can you post some pics of the install?
[/p]
I'm wondering if, given the relatively small size of the tow vehicle, if the friction in the Andersen hitch meant to control sway, is actually causing the tail to wag the dog. In other words, rather than dampening sway, the friction is causing the trailer's movement to greatly affect the tow vehicle. This would be further increased due to the fact it is a front wheel drive vehicle and there may be a situation where the front drive and steering wheels are not getting enough weight.
I really like the Andersen, and would hope you could get this dialed in. I noticed with mine, if I tighten too much, even with my Ram 1500, it tends to feel too stiff going over bumps. Perhaps being too tight can also increase the tail wagging the dog.
[p]I researched WDHs when I thought I was going to buy a 21 but ended up with a 16 which doesn't need it. This is what Reese (Cequent Products) had to say:
Weight distribution systems are selected by trailer weight (actual gross weight and tongue weight). If the trailer is rated for 5,000#, the frame should be able to handle a weight distribution system rated for that weight. 66558 appears to be the correct item. It will work with 3" – 5" tall and up to 2" wide frames. Instructions attached.
Thank you for contacting the Technical Group.
Cequent Performance Products
It clamps on to the trailer frame and has some latitude as to how far back it attaches so as to miss LPG tanks. It has integral sway control with friction pads that act on the trunnion bars. Here is a link to etrailer's web site: https://www.etrailer.com/Weight-Distribution/Reese/RP66558.html
If you look at the Anderson hitch it is never going to provide much weight distribution. The lever arm acting on the TV is very short- the force would have to be huge to do much good.[/p][p]
[/p][p]The real test of a WDH (other than weighing the front and rear ends on a truck scale) is to measure how far the front and rear suspension compresses when the WDH's bars are levered into place. The two should compress approximately the same.[/p][p]
[/p][p]Here is a good article that describes how to adjust your WDH: [a href="http://www.diskdoctor.us/camper/uploaded/How%20to%20Adjust%20the%20Weight%20Distributing%20Hitch.pdf"]http://www.diskdoctor.us/camper/uploaded/How%20to%20Adjust%20the%20Weight%20Distributing%20Hitch.pdf[/a].[/p][p]
David
[/p]
very interesting discussion......I was thinking Andersen wd hitch....now I'm rethinking it.......considering the
Reese SC Weight Distribution System w Sway Control - Trunnion - 10,000 lbs GTW, 800 lbs TW
Reese Weight Distribution Code: RP66153
I have been having the following conversation with Andersen.........
On 2014-10-19 10:16, Jeff wrote:
Gentlemen, I just bought a new 8.5 x 22 Livin Lite Axxess toy hauler.
My tow vehicle is a new Ram 1500 with a diesel engine and ai
suspension. The tongue weight of the trailer is 650 lbs and it weighs
4200 lbs, empty. I will be putting one or two motorcycles in it,
weighing around 750 to 850 lbs, each.......along with the usual gear,
probably another several hundred lbs! I am interested in your wd
hitch. Is it the right one for my all aluminum trailer? If so, what,
if any, deviation from your standard set up should I need?
Thanks...
Jeff,
Thank you for contacting us in regards to our Weight Distribution
Hitch and getting all of the information to me that you have.
We have not had anyone report back to us with towing with the new 1/2
ton diesel you have so I do not have hard data for you but we are
familiar with many other 1/2 tons towing with our hitch.
Our hitch will control the sway and bounce better than any other hitch
on the market for you but to distribute all of the tongue weight does
not happen when you the tongue weight goes over 700 pounds. We will
transfer approx 50-60% of the tongue weight which will give you full
control of the trailer and vehicle but will still have the rear end
sagging similar to 300 pounds on the rear of the pickup.
As far as installation our traditional install will work perfect for
you and I am attaching a few guides which can assist you.
If you decide to go with our hitch we would need to know which size
drop you need, tow ball size needed and how tall the brackets need to
be where they attach to the trailer frame.
Keep me posted if I can assist.
Thanks,
Dave.
Dave, thanks for getting back to me. Frankly, your hitch appeals to
me because of its simplicity! With regards to the truck, it has
factory air suspension which automatically adjusts to the payload.
When I brought the trailer home, I did not use a wd hitch and the
truck-trailer rode very level! I am, however, concerned about the
function of the hitch. It is my understanding that with loading the
trailer, the tongue weight might actually go down! I have read where
some folks load up the grey and/or black water tanks to give it a more
comfortable ride. In one forum, one guy had a set up similar to mine
and did not feel comfortable with your hitch.....so that is why I am
questioning you........and also because the more I read, the more I am
getting confused!! Thanks, Jeff
Dave wrote.......
With the automatic leveling system on your suspension I do not see how our hitch wouldn't perform perfect for your situation. The person that did not feel comfortable with our hitch was it due to the trailer swaying or felt like the front of the tow vehicle has a light front end which can adversely affect braking and steering?
With the tension nuts against the red urethane springs each setup and changing tongue weights will have you loosen or tighten the tension nut for the best control of the vehicle. When tanks start filling with water depending where they are located on the trailer will depend if you need to loosen or tighten the tension nut more. If the tongue weight is increased the pressure against the red urethane spring needs to increase.
note: of course, this is a salesman speaking, but don't you think he should tell me if the hitch is not appropriate for my set up? as I look at threads, different hitches, read the instructions....I am getting more and more confused......honestly, I do like the Andersen hitch because of it's simplicity......sounds like DJSamuel has a set up like mine....similar vehicle, similar rig.......and enjoys his Andersen........I do believe having the air suspension will help the hitch to adjust better and the hitch will help the sir suspension to adjust less! as I already stated, I drove without a wd hitch and did fine...felt more bounce than I would have liked, but at times felt none......so almost anything that stops that would make the ride much better!
I really think you'd find the Andersen to be a great fit for you. I'm up to about 6000 miles towing with ours, in all kinds of terrain, grades, weather and high crosswinds. It withstood the very rough roads of Louisiana with no issues. It is easy to set up and once you get it dialed in and know how many turns to tighten the nuts, the hitch is very predictable and consistent.
DJ, you just read my mind....I was going to ask you how you really like your Andersen hitch!!! like I said, I like the simplicity of it.....and frankly, the truck and trailer rode very well without it! just too much bounce!! and the trailer was empty....no water or bikes or other stuff......I am seriously considering it!! thanks!!
I ordered the Andersen hitch today.......hopefully it will come in in a few days and I can put it on and go for a ride!!
[quote source="/post/4377/thread" timestamp="1414024115" author="@epiphysis18"]I ordered the Andersen hitch today.......hopefully it will come in in a few days and I can put it on and go for a ride!! [/quote]
I tighten the nuts on my Andersen Hitch three turns each side (after hand tightening them). It may be a good starting point for you and then experiment from there.
[quote source="/post/4377/thread" timestamp="1414024115" author="@epiphysis18"]I ordered the Andersen hitch today.......hopefully it will come in in a few days and I can put it on and go for a ride!! [/quote]Very interested to hear how you like the Andersen. Keep in mind that the 650# of TW for you trailer is prior to installing the battery, propane, etc. I bet if you weigh it, the TW is probably closer to 750# to 800#. I hope the Andersen transfers enough weight for your needs.
[quote source="/post/4381/thread" timestamp="1414032174" author="@vrvinmo"][quote source="/post/4377/thread" timestamp="1414024115" author="@epiphysis18"]I ordered the Andersen hitch today.......hopefully it will come in in a few days and I can put it on and go for a ride!! [/quote]Very interested to hear how you like the Andersen. Keep in mind that the 650# of TW for you trailer is prior to installing the battery, propane, etc. I bet if you weigh it, the TW is probably closer to 750# to 800#. I hope the Andersen transfers enough weight for your needs.
[/quote]it's rated for 1400 lbs tongue weight. and depending on where I put my bike, the tongue weight may vary also.........
When I purchased our 21BHS our tow vehicle a 2000 Ford Explorer Sport 4x4 the dealer recommended installing Road master active suspension system. I had already replaced the original leaf springs from a single leaf to a multiple spring pack. That alone helped with the rear sag in the SUV. The Roadmaster Active suspension took the S bend out of the leaf springs and raised the rear of the SUV a couple of inches (unloaded / no trailer hooked up). http://www.activesuspension.com/ Once the trailer was hooked up the overall stance of the truck and tailer was much better than with out the Roadmaster suspenaion. Granted with the short wheel base of the two door Explorer is not the ideal tow vehicle for 21ft as I could feel the trailer moving around when semi's passed. The roadmaster active suspension does work but it does stiffen up the rear suspension when your not towing a trailer.
Pete
[p]I am quite surprised that the Anderson WDH has become the go to hitch for members of this forum. I see members with 500 to 700 lb tongue weight using the Andersen, assuming that it is transferring significant tongue weight forward.[/p][p]
[/p][p]I must admit that it looks clean and simple. And I do like its cone of friction material that probably handles sway control nicely. But as a WDH, no.
Just take a look at the photos of the hitch from the side. The attachment point of the two chains at the hitch is 4-6" below the ball pivot point. The force on those chains (adjusted by the big nut on the trailer frame bracket) is what generates some weight distribution. But a 6" lever arm just isn't going to transfer much force to the front wheels are 15 feet forward. It would take thousands, probably ten thousand pounds of force on that chain to transfer the 400 lbs of weight forward that the Andersen salesman said could be done (see Jeff's post above). The chain won't take that load and for sure the frame attachment point won't.
If you have a 600-700 lbs tongue weight, you need a trunion bar type WDH unless you are towing with a 3/4 ton pickup or better. If you put 600 lbs (what you will have left after the meager Andersen weight transfer) on the rear end of any 1/2 ton pickup or full size SUV, you will probably exceed its rear axle load limit. Also for driving stability and balance you need more of that hitch weight transferred forward. Otherwise the front end will be light and the TV could understeer right off of the road in a sharp turn.
A trunion bar type WDH has a much longer lever arm which operates on the hitch- usually 24-32" from the ball to the frame attachment point as opposed to the 4-6" of the Andersen below the ball pivot point. This lets the same force be transferred to the front end as the Andersen, but with less than 1/4 of the tension at the attachment point. And compare how the Andersen chains attach to the hitch assembly below the cone versus how the trunion bars attach. The trunion bars are much beefier to enable it to transfer more torque forward than the Andersen. It is simple physics.
So to prove or disprove my contention, could someone with an Andersen WDH and 500+ lbs or more of tongue weight, measure their front wheel fender height before, after hooking up the trailer and then after tightening the big nuts on the Andersen. I will bet that the front fender goes up almost inch after hooking up and won't go down significantly after tightening the big nuts.
David[/p]
[font size="3"]David,
I agree with your analysis of the Anderson. Doug Samuel (djsamuel) has long noted that the Anderson is good for sway, but not so good for WD. Sounds good from the marketing dept.; not so good in the engineering/physics dept. Another knock on the Anderson is that it puts extreme force on the coupler/ball interface in a manner for which it was not designed. The chain force pulls the rear of the ball pocket against the rear side of the ball. Ideally the static load on the ball is vertical, not horizontal. While the spring bar WDH does increase the load on the ball and coupler, it is generally all vertical. No reports yet on the long term effects of this sideways loading on ball or ball locking mechanism wear.
[/font]
I debated on whether or not to get a wd hitch......with my truck, I have air suspension.....so it automatically adjusts to the hitch weight. I felt that the Andersen is a compromise, but after reading all the reviews, with my set up, it would fit the bill......I will see soon!
I've got about 6000 miles on it so far. The coupler looks fine, no obvious signs of wear. The ball looks fine as well. I've towed the 21BHS with no WDH and t tows fine in terms of truck stance. When I lower the trailer on the Ram 1500 the rear drops about two inches and the truck sits nice and level. When I tighten up the Andersen hitch, I only raise the rear about 1/2 inch, but sway control is great and it reduces bouncing a lot when driving over things like small bridges, etc. I don't tighten the hitch up too much. Wouldn't want to use any other WDH with the setup I have.
[quote timestamp="1415209006" author="@david" source="/post/4802/thread"][p][span style="font-size:10pt;"]But a 6" lever arm just isn't going to transfer much force to the front wheels are 15 feet forward.
[/span][span style="font-size:10pt;"]. . .
A trunion bar type WDH has a much longer lever arm which operates on the hitch- usually 24-32" from the ball to the frame attachment point as opposed to the 4-6" of the Andersen below the ball pivot point.
[/span][span style="font-size:10pt;"]. . .[/span][/p][p]
David[/p][/quote]David, I disagree strongly. I understand your explanation, but I think you are mis-labeling the elements of the lever. The lever that acts to transfer the weight to the front of the TV is NOT the long side of the trunion bar. It is the short leg of the el that connects to the weight distributing head. The length of the trunion bar multiplies the force applied at the trailer end to move the top of the trunion bar forward, tilting the receiver downward, which transfers the weight forward. That lever arm is probably less than the six inches you refer to in the Andersen system. The screw threads at the trailer end of the Andersen system are, essentially, an inclined plane that serves the same purpose as the long arm of the trunion bar - to multiply the force applied at the trailer end of the system. The chains then transfer that force to the weight distributing head. So Anderson uses an inclined plane where Reese and most other systems use a long lever. Euclid would be thrilled!
I stand ready and willing to be corrected 8-|
icebear:
Thanks for your comments. You obviously understand physics and mechanics and you are absolutely correct. Both the Andersen and trunion bar WDHs create a couple (force times lever distance) at the hitch ball. As you point out, Andersen's is created by the chain acting on a point 6" below the ball as a result of the chain pull which is created by the inclined plane of the nuts. The trunnion lever arm creates a similar couple either measured 24" behind the ball (force upwards) or about 6" below the hitch ball where the trunion bars connect (force backwards).
But the problem is how these couples are created. When you lever up a trunion bar (or use your tongue jack to load it) you are probably putting 1,000 lbs of force at that point if you want to transfer several hundred pounds of hitch weight to the front wheels. That force creates about 2,000 ft lbs of torque for each side based on a 24" long trunion bar. That same force gets transferred at the hitch and can be considered to be 4,000 lbs at the trunion bar hitch attachment point 6" below the ball. That is why the trunnion to hitch connection is so beefy.
To achieve the same torque with the Andersen system, that same 4,000 lbs of force needs to be transferred at the chain to hitch attachment point. Neither that attachment point, the chain nor the chain to frame bracket look like they can take that kind of force. As a result the Andersen system is not designed to be tensioned to those forces and as a result the weight transfer capability is limited.
Can you imagine what that rubber insert at the chain attachment point would look like with 4,000 lbs on it? It would probably squash flat. So no one tightens the nuts up enough to do that.
djsamuel gives us some hard data on the Andersen's weight transfer capability in his post above. He loads his hitch with 525 lbs of tow weight, the rear sags 2" and when he tightens the nuts the rear end goes back up 1/2". That means he is transferring roughly 1/4 of the 525 lbs forward or about 130 lbs. I suspect that much weight transfer is typical of the Andersen hitch.
If that much weight transfer works for him, ok the Andersen is fine and also provides good sway control. But for the guy who has a 650 lbs tongue weight and only 400 lbs of available rear end load rating, the Andersen won't do the job. Or if his front end is high and his steering is light, he needs a trunion bar type WDH that can transfer more weight.
And FWIW the 6" dimension quoted above is appropriate for the 8" drop version of the Andersen hitch. The 4" drop version will transfer about half as much because the lever arm is shorter.
David
Absolutely. If you really need to distribute weight, i.e. towing with a bare hitch isn't practical, then you really need something other than an Andersen. In my case, the sway control and bounce attenuation is the benefit I gain.
[quote source="/post/4826/thread" timestamp="1415286289" author="@david"]But the problem is how these couples are created. When you lever up a trunion bar (or use your tongue jack to load it) you are probably putting 1,000 lbs of force at that point if you want to transfer several hundred pounds of hitch weight to the front wheels. That force creates about 2,000 ft lbs of torque for each side based on a 24" long trunion bar. That same force gets transferred at the hitch and can be considered to be 4,000 lbs at the trunion bar hitch attachment point 6" below the ball. That is why the trunnion to hitch connection is so beefy.
[/quote]I'm trying to understand where your 1000 lbs or 2000 lbs or 4000 lbs figures are coming from. Common sense has gotten me in trouble before, but I can transfer a couple hundred pounds of force to the front wheels of my vehicle just by sticking a long wrecking bar into my hitch receiver and deadlifting the distal end. Try it. I'll take some pix later.
icebear:
One thousand pounds was just an example to compare the torque produced with a trunion bar vs the forces needed to produce the same torque with an Andersen hitch. It should be pretty obvious that it takes 4 times the force at a 6" lever arm to produce the same torque as with a 24" lever arm.
But 1,000 lbs per side on a 24" lever arm is in the ballpark of what it takes to transfer 300-400 lbs to the front wheels of a 5,000 lb TV. I can't easily send you the moment and force balance diagram that proves it, but like they say....trust me.
I think you will be surprised at how much force it takes with a long pry bar on the hitch to transfer 200 lbs. I can easily (well not for long!!) lift 100 lbs at the end of a 4" long wrecking bar. So I am putting 400 ft lbs of torque on the hitch. I'll bet it transfers much less than 100 lbs forward.
David
[quote timestamp="1415286289" source="/post/4826/thread" author="@david"]
Can you imagine what that rubber insert at the chain attachment point would look like with 4,000 lbs on it? It would probably squash flat. So no one tightens the nuts up enough to do that.
David[/quote]Setting aside for the moment your figure of 4000 lbs, which I think is incorrect by an order of magnitude, I offer some data:
Urethane is not rubber. A 1.125" diameter,2" long, 90 durometer urethane bushing, with a 5/8" rod hole in it will compress lengthwise about 1/2" when loaded to 600 lbs. That kind of pressure is very easy to generate with a bolt and nut. I have no idea if this is the particular bushing Andersen uses. I just picked one out at random, but I suspect Anderson has engineered the hell out of this system.
I used to have a steel and wood 26" Outback that weighed maybe 7500 lbs. My Reese hitch used 1200 lb trunion bars. To load the system, one used a little steel tube to raise the over-center things that carried the chains the trunion bars rested on. I could do it with one hand, so no way does it take 1000lbs to raise it. Yeah, I was burlier then :P. I'm not unfamiliar with weight distributing hitches, and I still have that ginormous Reese hitch. I use it to keep my shed from blowing away in the wind.
[quote source="/post/4841/thread" timestamp="1415300852" author="@david"]
I think you will be surprised at how much force it takes with a long pry bar on the hitch to transfer 200 lbs. I can easily (well not for long!!) lift 100 lbs at the end of a 4" long wrecking bar. So I am putting 400 ft lbs of torque on the hitch. I'll bet it transfers much less than 100 lbs forward.
David[/quote]Yep. I'm not the man I never was. Instead of using the wrecking bar, I used one of the 1200 lb trunion bars from my old hitch. I think I need to go to the ER. I can't believe I used to do deadlift reps with 350 lbs.
[p]icebear:
I don't think I can convince you of my position without sitting down with a piece of paper and drawing a moment diagram. So let's put it aside and enjoy camping in our LLs, ok!!![/p][p]
[/p][p]My purpose in starting this discussion was to warn prospective WDH purchasers that the Andersen hitch would not be adequate to transfer several hundred pounds to the front wheels. All of the empirical evidence I have seen on this forum supports that view.
David[/p]
Well, I'm taking the 14DBS on its maiden voyage to the Blue Ridge for a long weekend tomorrow morning! No weight distributing hitch or sway control yet. I'ma wait and see. And I hope you don't think I'm arguing with you. We're "discussing." I'm pretty confident I know what diagram you'd draw and I expect I'd say that you had it right. What I think you're missing is that the inclined plane of the bolt and nut is every bit as effective a force multiplier as the lever action of the trunion arm. Don't forget, you're not finger tightening that nut. You're using a wrench with a 12-18" long lever to turn it up the very long inclined plane represented by the threads on the screw. Mechanical advantage is mechanical advantage, whether generated by a lever, an inclined plane, a set of gears or block & tackle system.
Where in the Blue Ridge?
Northern end of SNP. Actually camping in Shenandoah River State Park. No cell or internet. Up on Skyline Drive right now with a three-bar 3G signal. 28F last night. Water hose froze. Camper lines OK. Whew.
I went for a short ride the other day....with my Andersen wd hitch hooked up......it made a big difference! the ride was much smoother.....I had to look back to see if the trailer was still there.....and my bike is in the trailer......mpg is about the same...around 15mpg......very little bounce, no sway, steering much easier.....I'm a fan!
I'm sold.
Thanks for the well thought out discussion. It really helped me process how a wdh works. Good job.
I went with the Andersen for sway control and bounce control. I don't need weight distribution since I'm way under any limits of the TV and there's very little droop in the rear when hitched and loaded up. I'll need to add a couple of chain links to miss the propane tanks, but otherwise it looks like an easy install. Probably be spring before a really good test run, but I'll report back then on the Andersen/16TBS set up.
[quote source="/post/5021/thread" timestamp="1415808218" author="@epiphysis18"]I went for a short ride the other day....with my Andersen wd hitch hooked up......it made a big difference! the ride was much smoother.....I had to look back to see if the trailer was still there.....and my bike is in the trailer......mpg is about the same...around 15mpg......very little bounce, no sway, steering much easier.....I'm a fan! [/quote]Curious, what kind of bike did you haul and what is the payload rating of your Ram from the yellow sticker in the door jam?