When I got my 2016 16 TBS this Jan, it had a 2 5/16 hitch, not the normal 2 in hitch. The build date for the unit was July/2015. I ask Livin Lite why this happened and this was their answer.
We switched to the bigger coupler because old coupler was getting too close the max hitch weight capacity
That of course is a BS answer. If they bolted it in right with lower bolts, there would be no problem with hitch or trailer weight with the 2" coupler. Like most manufacturers of anything today, they are slow to learn from their customers.
David
[quote source="/post/17911/thread" timestamp="1453307626" author="@david"]That of course is a BS answer. If they bolted it in right with lower bolts, there would be no problem with hitch or trailer weight with the 2" coupler. Like most manufacturers of anything today, they are slow to learn from their customers.
David[/quote][font size="3"]Of course it's BS. On a 16? Properly installed the original coupler was rated at 5000#. Now I see they're revising the GVWRs, apparently assuming any additional cargo will go entirely on the axle. Conservative, but probably safe. But the 21s are apparently going from the old 3500# to some new 2500# rating? For example the 21RBS/BHS: (GVWR - hitch weight)/2 = 2500#. More cost cutting?[/font]
[quote source="/post/17912/thread" author="@charliem" timestamp="1453310965"][quote source="/post/17911/thread" timestamp="1453307626" author="@david"]That of course is a BS answer. If they bolted it in right with lower bolts, there would be no problem with hitch or trailer weight with the 2" coupler. Like most manufacturers of anything today, they are slow to learn from their customers.
David[/quote][font size="3"]Of course it's BS. On a 16? Properly installed the original coupler was rated at 5000#. Now I see they're revising the GVWRs, apparently assuming any additional cargo will go entirely on the axle. Conservative, but probably safe. But the 21s are apparently going from the old 3500# to some new 2500# rating? For example the 21RBS/BHS: (GVWR - hitch weight)/2 = 2500#. More cost cutting?[/font]
[/quote]Not sure what you're referencing with the 2500# number. What was 3500#? The axles are 3500 lbs each, and they still are (according to the latest specs dates October 2015). I noticed the GVWR has gone up from 5,000 lbs to 5308, and the hitch weight is listed at 3058 pounds (for the 21BHS).
[quote source="/post/17913/thread" timestamp="1453315646" author="@djsamuel"]Not sure what you're referencing with the 2500# number. What was 3500#? The axles are 3500 lbs each, and they still are (according to the latest specs dates October 2015). I noticed the GVWR has gone up from 5,000 lbs to 5308, and the hitch weight is listed at 3058 pounds (for the 21BHS).[/quote][font size="3"]True, but I think we're suffering from specification latency/inconsistency. The standards sheet has 3500# axles AND 14" wheels. The spec section shows 15" wheels with the new GVWR. The GVWR comes from adding 308 to the axle load rating. The GVWR and/or axle rating has been wrong for a long time; the 21's have had 3500# axles and sufficient tires to support a 7000# GVWR for a long time. My 2014 (late 2013 build) has labeled 3500# axles. At the time LL was even putting 7000# GVWR on the shipping invoice. Either the 5308 GVWR is still wrong or LL Thor is moving to 2500# axles. I don't think it's a tire or frame issue. [/font]
[quote source="/post/17914/thread" timestamp="1453316952" author="@charliem"]
Quote from: @djsamuel" timestamp="1453315646" source="/post/17913/threadNot sure what you're referencing with the 2500# number. What was 3500#? The axles are 3500 lbs each, and they still are (according to the latest specs dates October 2015). I noticed the GVWR has gone up from 5,000 lbs to 5308, and the hitch weight is listed at 3058 pounds (for the 21BHS).
[font size="3"]True, but I think we're suffering from specification latency/inconsistency. The standards sheet has 3500# axles AND 14" wheels. The spec section shows 15" wheels with the new GVWR. The GVWR comes from adding 308 to the axle load rating. The GVWR and/or axle rating has been wrong for a long time; the 21's have had 3500# axles and sufficient tires to support a 7000# GVWR for a long time. My 2014 (late 2013 build) has labeled 3500# axles. At the time LL was even putting 7000# GVWR on the shipping invoice. Either the 5308 GVWR is still wrong or LL Thor is moving to 2500# axles. I don't think it's a tire or frame issue. [/font]
[/quote]I would hope they just changed the way they recalculated the GVWR. Going with 2 5,000 pound axles would put them right at the limit, much like other manufacturers. The design margins are one reason I try to recommend the Camplites. If they change this, no more recommendations from me.
djsamuel, do you mean two 2500 lb capacity axles?
Took these photos of a CL-21' travel trailer with advertised GVW of 5,000 lbs. The coupler limited the advertised GVW to 5,000 pounds even though the camper has two 3,500 lb capacity axles.
[a href="http://s657.photobucket.com/user/vstromklr/media/2013/2014/IMG_5161_zpsbfc7d99c.jpg.html"]
(http://i657.photobucket.com/albums/uu299/vstromklr/2013/2014/IMG_5161_zpsbfc7d99c.jpg)
[img style="max-width:100%;" src="http://i657.photobucket.com/albums/uu299/vstromklr/2013/2014/IMG_5163_zpsfd2d37cb.jpg"][/a]
Been looking at an aluminum ATC toy hauler with two 3500 lb capacity axles with 7700 lb GVW. This unit is 3600 lbs empty
with 750lb tongue weight and 2 5/16" ball.
My 2010 CL 11 has a 2200 lb VIN GVW. It's 2,000lbs ready to camp with 300 lb tongue weight and 1700 lbs on the axle.
It's equipped with a 2200 lb capacity Dexter axle.
Quote from: @exploringcarolina" source="/post/17917/thread" timestamp="1453323166djsamuel, do you mean two 2500 lb capacity axles?
Took these photos of a CL-21' travel trailer with advertised GVW of 5,000 lbs. The coupler limited the advertised GVW to 5,000 pounds even though the camper has two 3,500 lb capacity axles.
[a href="http://s657.photobucket.com/user/vstromklr/media/2013/2014/IMG_5161_zpsbfc7d99c.jpg.html"]
[img style="max-width:100%;" src="http://i657.photobucket.com/albums/uu299/vstromklr/2013/2014/IMG_5161_zpsbfc7d99c.jpg"][/a]
Coupler on same camper:
[a href="http://s657.photobucket.com/user/vstromklr/media/2013/2014/IMG_5163_zpsfd2d37cb.jpg.html"]
[img style="max-width:100%;" src="http://i657.photobucket.com/albums/uu299/vstromklr/2013/2014/IMG_5163_zpsfd2d37cb.jpg"][/a]
Been looking at an aluminum ATC toy hauler with two 3500 lb capacity axles with 7700 lb GVW. This unit is 3600 lbs empty
with 750lb tongue weight and 2 5/16" ball.
My 2010 CL 11 has a 2200 lb VIN GVW. It's 2,000lbs ready to camp with 300 lb tongue weight and 1700 lbs on the axle.
It's equipped with a 2200 lb capacity Dexter axle.
This matches my 2013 21BHS exactly. I love having the extra margin on the axles and especially the tires.
Charlie was wondering if they switched to 2500 lb axles, from the 3500. My 21BHS definitely has the 3500 lb axles and I would hate to see that change.
I'm familiar with 2200 lb, 3500 lb, and 5200 lb capacity Dexter axles. Did not ask about axle installations during our LivinLite tour last summer.
[font size="3"]OK Guys,
I'm still skeptical. My 2014 21RBS is rated 7000# GVWR on the label and the OEM coupler is/was rated at 5000#. The two axles are rated at 3500# each. Apparently the 5000# coupler didn't prevent LL from rating the GVWR at 7000#, even though the brochure advertised 5000#. I have always assumed the brochure was out of date.
The upgraded coupler I got from LL is rated at 14,000# total weight with a 2-5/16 ball. I added the side bolts so this is no longer a limitation. I just wonder why LL updated their specs to 5450# and 15" tires. Why not 7000# plus? The Standards page still shows dual 3500# axles and 14" tires so I assume it is still out of date. It also looks like LL may be upgrading the coupler to something in excess of 5000#. So why, when updating the specs, go to 5450 and not 7000+TW? That's exactly 2X2500 plus the stated 450# tongue weight. I've been accused of seeing boogeymen behind trees, but I've spent time in Missouri. Show me.
[/font]
Quote from: @charliem" timestamp="1453338135" source="/post/17922/thread[font size="3"]OK Guys,
I'm still skeptical. My 2014 21RBS is rated 7000# GVWR on the label and the OEM coupler is/was rated at 5000#. The two axles are rated at 3500# each. Apparently the 5000# coupler didn't prevent LL from rating the GVWR at 7000#, even though the brochure advertised 5000#. I have always assumed the brochure was out of date.
The upgraded coupler I got from LL is rated at 14,000# total weight with a 2-5/16 ball. I added the side bolts so this is no longer a limitation. I just wonder why LL updated their specs to 5450# and 15" tires. Why not 7000# plus? The Standards page still shows dual 3500# axles and 14" tires so I assume it is still out of date. It also looks like LL may be upgrading the coupler to something in excess of 5000#. So why, when updating the specs, go to 5450 and not 7000+TW? That's exactly 2X2500 plus the stated 450# tongue weight. I've been accused of seeing boogeymen behind trees, but I've spent time in Missouri. Show me.
[/font]
Don't disagree at all. I'm hoping that they didn't change the axles. If they did, that would really bother me. Your rationale does make sense, I'm just hoping that isn't the case.
Found this on the Dexter site. Dexter builds 2300 lb to 4000 lb Torflex axle assemblies:
http://dexteraxle.com/i/u/6149609/f/600-8K_Catalog/2300-4000_Lbs.pdf
There are other manufacturers of Torsion axles including 2500 & 2700 lb capacity axles:
http://www.easternmarine.com/catalog/category/view/id/1084
[quote source="/post/17924/thread" timestamp="1453339632" author="@exploringcarolina"]Found this on the Dexter site. Dexter builds 2300 lb to 4000 lb Torflex axle assemblies:
http://dexteraxle.com/i/u/6149609/f/600-8K_Catalog/2300-4000_Lbs.pdf
There are other manufacturers of Torsion axles including 2500 & 2700 lb capacity axles:
http://www.easternmarine.com/catalog/category/view/id/1084
[/quote]
When I built my teardrop trailer, I used a Dexter Torflex axle.
The Torflex is available in several torsion axles - #8 through #13. For each axle, the load range can be specified by the manufacturer. (What varies is the length of the torsion rubber). A #10 Torflex can have a load range of 2300-4000 pounds, a #11 axle can have a range of 4100-6000 pounds, etc. So, for a #10 Torflex, a manufacture can say that they want the axle to have a load rating of 3500 pounds (or whatever rating they choose between 2300 pounds and 4000 pounds.)
For my teardrop, I specified an #9 with a load rating of 1500 pounds. The axle came with a tag that had the configured load rating. I believe the tag is required to be placed on the axle so for those of you lucky enough to have a Living Lite trailer, you may be able to crawl under and see the actual axle specification.
Changing the load range for a specific axle doesn't lower the cost. A #10 with a 2500 pound load rating costs the same as a #10 with a 3500 pound rating. So if the axle manufacturer and load range is the same, the lower load rating doesn't save LL any money.
[quote source="/post/17922/thread" timestamp="1453338135" author="@charliem"][font size="3"]OK Guys,
I'm still skeptical. My 2014 21RBS is rated 7000# GVWR on the label and the OEM coupler is/was rated at 5000#. The two axles are rated at 3500# each. Apparently the 5000# coupler didn't prevent LL from rating the GVWR at 7000#, even though the brochure advertised 5000#. I have always assumed the brochure was out of date.
The upgraded coupler I got from LL is rated at 14,000# total weight with a 2-5/16 ball. I added the side bolts so this is no longer a limitation. I just wonder why LL updated their specs to 5450# and 15" tires. Why not 7000# plus? The Standards page still shows dual 3500# axles and 14" tires so I assume it is still out of date. It also looks like LL may be upgrading the coupler to something in excess of 5000#. So why, when updating the specs, go to 5450 and not 7000+TW? That's exactly 2X2500 plus the stated 450# tongue weight. I've been accused of seeing boogeymen behind trees, but I've spent time in Missouri. Show me.
[/font][/quote]
Could the lower GVWR be due to the LL transitioning to a lower trailer tire load rating (say from an "E" to a "D") to perhaps save some money on trailer tires?
[quote source="/post/17926/thread" timestamp="1453408284" author="@aggie79"]Changing the load range for a specific axle doesn't lower the cost. A #10 with a 2500 pound load rating costs the same as a 3500-pound #10. So if the axle manufacturer and load range is the same, the lower load rating doesn't save LL any money.
Could the lower GVWR be due to the LL transitioning to a lower trailer tire load rating (say from an "E" to a "D") to perhaps save some money on trailer tires?
[/quote][font size="3"]Who knows. If there is really no difference in cost of the axle then I don't know what they're doing. I didn't realize that. They're apparently are going to 15" tires. Doesn't seem like much savings for D vs E. [/font]
If I had to guess I'd say they are just standardizing product across the lines to make supply management easier. It may have nothing to do with anything else.
[quote source="/post/17931/thread" timestamp="1453417592" author="@mitch"]If I had to guess I'd say they are just standardizing product across the lines to make supply management easier. It may have nothing to do with anything else.[/quote][font size="3"]You may be right, but I'm still skeptical. The only other model to use the 2500# axle is the 11FK. Both 14s and the 16TBS use 4400s and I suspect the 16DBS will too when it goes to a single axle. That leaves the two 21s with dual axles. If aggie79 is correct that there is no cost difference between 2500 and 3500 axles then why not standardize on 3500 for all 21s and the 11FK? That's better than degrading the 21s from two 3500s to a pair of 2500s. I guess time will reveal all.....Maybe. [/font]