Yes, it's too bad they are not offering the 28 footers any longer. Also, the wood they have introduced into the new models is minor and merely for asthetic reasons. It's just the doors and the front facing part of the cabinets, and it's highly unlikely that those parts would be damaged if water were to get into the camper. The framing for the cabinets is still the same (aluminum). The camper we just purchased (CampLite 21BHS) is basically the same camper as the previous ones, and still a solid, quality product. All campers (all makes and models) eventually will have some water get into them at some point, regardless of how well it is made or what you pay for it. There are a lot of places that water can get into a camping trailer, so it's great that the CampLite's are still being built the same way they always have so that the water won't damage anything. While it would be great if they still offered aluminum-faced cabinets, it is a minor amount of wood being used for the cabinet faces and that should not present a problem.
Gregg
Hmmm! Why did they discontinue the 28s? Was it because the bean counters figured out that they couldn't make money on them. Maybe.
I have another theory. A 28' travel trailer needs a WDH, hands down. Well maybe if you are towing with an F350 dually you can get by without one, but otherwise no.
Camplite has a firm policy of not recommending WDH's. Why? Because the coupler can bend and if the trunion arms are tightened down and the owner goes over a big dip, it can also bend the aluminum frame.
So, it was easier and safer (from a liability standpoint) to discontinue the 28.
That is unfortunate because some good engineering (like lower bolts on the coupler) and maybe aluminum doublers on the front of the frame, could have eliminated the bending risk.
David
Yeah, I think they got to the point of realizing that 28' was just not compatible with aluminum frame - or rather, that the envelope was much smaller and the problems bigger.
GB also has it right - it is still WAAAAAAAAAY better than conventional RV contruction, vis-a-vis wood rot opportunities.
I'm more concerned about the move to single axles.
Having seen the wood cabinets at the Hershey show I can confirm they are well made. Just the doors are "wood" but still have an aluminum frame. and azdel/aluminum sides bottoms.
Another plus for the aluminum doors is the locking mechanism those doors do not come open during travel. I have driven over 10,000 miles with my 14 DBS and have never had anything on the floor upon arrival to my destination and have driven over some pretty rough roads.
Not to beat this into the ground but, for those still looking the Bearcat line still offers the aluminum doors and more industrial look in the 21 foot models. They are not well publicized on their website but we have members who have bought them and they are available. Suspect you can order them also. Bearcat not Camplite and they are not the toy haulers as the Bearcat line was originally. They are just like the Camplite but no wood doors. Search this forum for Beatcat 21BHS and you will see the thread with dealers who have them.
[quote source="/post/17378/thread" author="@ammobob" timestamp="1451483678"]Not to beat this into the ground but, for those still looking the Bearcat line still offers the aluminum doors and more industrial look in the 21 foot models. They are not well publicized on their website but we have members who have bought them and they are available. Suspect you can order them also. Bearcat not Camplite and they are not the toy haulers as the Bearcat line was originally. They are just like the Camplite but no wood doors. Search this forum for Beatcat 21BHS and you will see the thread with dealers who have them.
[/quote][font size="3"]Ammo et al,
Apparently this was a one time, one dealer, no longer available deal. On Dec 28 ChristianM posted:
[/font]
OK! Sorry for the delay in answer- here is what I was able to find out!
The Bearcat 21 BHS is not the website, because it is not available for regular order/production. The Bearcat 21 BHS was a limited-edition, special order; commissioned specifically by American RV in Oregon. Not sure how many were made, but it was very few and they are not currently available for reorder from the factory.
The Bearcat 21 BHS is just one of Bearcats floorplans, though. You can still purchase traditional Bearcat pop up, travel trailer or toy hauler floor plans through any Bearcat dealer.
Hope this helps!
Christian
Crap am I behind the times and completely missed that one. Thanks for correcting me Charlie and that being said I wonder how bad it will get with LL. Have to imagine that Scott is disappointed to say the least. Of course her line below would indicate that you could still get the 21 BHS travel trailer through a Bearcat dealer. She says it was a special order and not available to order from the factory but, then goes on to say;
"The Bearcat 21 BHS is just one of Bearcats floorplans, though. You can still purchase traditional Bearcat pop up, travel trailer or toy hauler floor plans through any Bearcat dealer".
Hope this helps!
Christian
this would indicate to me that it is still available unless she mis-spoke.
[quote timestamp="1451486078" author="@ammobob" source="/post/17380/thread"]
"The Bearcat 21 BHS is just one of Bearcats floorplans, though. You can still purchase traditional Bearcat pop up, travel trailer or toy hauler floor plans through any Bearcat dealer".
Hope this helps!
Christian
this would indicate to me that it is still available unless she mis-spoke.[/quote][font size="3"]My guess is no, but who's keeping score? There may be some residual on dealers' lots, but not new production. It seems LL (Thor) is going after a completely different market. Re the Ford products: Heavy, wide, tall, rubber roofs, etc. I recently toured the Lance factory and quickly found: "You take it like we build it. If you want anything different you go somewhere else. If you modify it you void the warranty." Then they (the production manager) knocked their users' forum as a bunch of malcontents. That attitude toward customers says a lot. That said, Lance builds a very good product, but it ain't Burger King. I see Thor moving LL in a similar direction.[/font]
Jason,
This dealer has a CampLite 28 BHS on the lot at a discounted price. Suspect a few other dealers may have one, too!
http://www.leosrv.com/product-livin-lite/camplite-travel-trailer/cl-28bhs
[quote source="/post/17385/thread" timestamp="1451502610" author="Jason"][div][/div]Livinlite, if you're listening, potential customers like the Camplite brand for the aluminum and lack of wood.
Aluminum cabinets and faces, bare aluminum floors, and aluminum interior walls should be an option. [/quote]Hi Jason :-)
Christian from Livin Lite here. We are listening!
Over the past 2 months, I have met/spoken with our CFO, General Manager and Livin Lite sales reps to relay what I am hearing on this forum. I'm not sure what changes have or will be made to the product...but know this:
I was hired specifically to be the "voice" of the owners and consumers to our upper management, to take what you guys are saying and feeling to the guys that make the decisions. It might not be a perfect process yet, but know that responsibility is something I take very seriously. :-)
I can't promise or predict what they will do with the information...but know that it IS getting to them. You are being heard.
Thanks for joining this forum and for giving us your honest opinion!
Christian
[quote timestamp="1452105647" author="@christianm" source="/post/17536/thread"][quote timestamp="1451502610" author="Jason" source="/post/17385/thread"][div][/div][div][/div]Livinlite, if you're listening, potential customers like the Camplite brand for the aluminum and lack of wood.
Aluminum cabinets and faces, bare aluminum floors, and aluminum interior walls should be an option. [/quote]Hi Jason :-)
Christian from Livin Lite here. We are listening!
Over the past 2 months, I have met/spoken with our CFO, General Manager and Livin Lite sales reps to relay what I am hearing on this forum. I'm not sure what changes have or will be made to the product...but know this:
I was hired specifically to be the "voice" of the owners and consumers to our upper management, to take what you guys are saying and feeling to the guys that make the decisions. It might not be a perfect process yet, but know that responsibility is something I take very seriously. :-)
I can't promise or predict what they will do with the information...but know that it IS getting to them. You are being heard.
Thanks for joining this forum and for giving us your honest opinion!
Christian [/quote]This alone is great to hear. At least decisions won't be made in a vacuum. Thanks. :)
[font size="3"]Christian,
It's good to hear you and we have a vote. Unfortunately the bean counters have a thousand votes. Keep up the good work.
[/font]
Wife and I were just on this subject at lunch. I would hope the results of the poll about the cabinets would get shown to whoever made that decision.. 1 person, ONE, of owners and prospective owners, voted for those new cabinets and doors.
I'm seeing this on some of the other forums I visit, non-travel trailer forums. All complaints were about the aluminum cabinet doors and they told the dealers they would pass on a purchase. They felt the wooden look made the inside look more updated, guess THOR is taking the news from its dealers. If you place a special order, you should at least have the option to go with the look you want but that may not be cost effective.
[quote source="/post/17586/thread" timestamp="1452285631" author="@furpod"]Wife and I were just on this subject at lunch. I would hope the results of the poll about the cabinets would get shown to whoever made that decision.. 1 person, ONE, of owners and prospective owners, voted for those new cabinets and doors. [/quote]What they'll pay attention to is the ones that DIDN'T buy their product, and why.
LLs are unique and appeal to prospective buyers who do not want to buy into future rot and/or rust, both of which are inevitable in steel framed stick and staple trailers. The typical LL buyer is willing to pay for that durability and understand the value in their investment. Quality over quantity, I hope Thor understands that much?!
[quote source="/post/17600/thread" timestamp="1452359960" author="@pinstriper"][quote source="/post/17586/thread" timestamp="1452285631" author="@furpod"]Wife and I were just on this subject at lunch. I would hope the results of the poll about the cabinets would get shown to whoever made that decision.. 1 person, ONE, of owners and prospective owners, voted for those new cabinets and doors. [/quote]What they'll pay attention to is the ones that DIDN'T buy their product, and why.
[/quote]In that case I will chime in here. I was all set to buy a 2016 livin lite truck camper and even went to a dealers lot to see the three they had on their lot. Two new and one used. The reason I drove 5 hrs to see the campers is because I couldn't get a good feel for the camper based on the LL web site but I will address that later. I needed a 4 seasons camper and was excited when LL announced that the new models would be just that with enclosed bottoms, heated tanks, etc. I have to say that I was shocked at what I saw upon inspection of the 11S. First, the bottom is completely open covered with a thin layer of corrugated plastic that is just laid in. The same is true for the back portion which would hang out the back of the truck so this would be beat by the wind continually. No insulation on the bottom at all and it just looked very cheap to be honest. Next when we went in, the bed (which lucky for the dealer was covered in plastic) had a pool of water sitting on it...about the size of four dinner plates...so quite a bit from a leak that the salesman couldn't locate. Then a piece of trim was coming off and you could see where they had run out of nails but kept hitting the trim (you could see the indentations from the head strike). They never went back to secure it. Now this was obvious just standing in the galley as it was hanging off. I decided right then that if the quality control was this poor I wanted nothing to do with the camper. Interestingly enough, the bottoms of the other two LL campers were covered in aluminum so the tanks were at least not exposed to the elements. One was a 15 and the other a 14 model. If LL staff is interested here are some of the things that influenced my decision not to go with LL. One, and most important the quality control was not there. From what I had read in the past about LL I was expecting a good quality product. I was very disappointed. Next fix your web site. Get some pictures up of your products. How hard is it to take a set of pictures of one of your campers and post them on the site. This includes all sides outside and multiple inside pictures. This is very basic and again if you can't achieve that what else is lacking in your product. Lastly, I was set on livin lite based in part on the new GM's interview about making the LL truck camper a true four seasons camper which it is clearly not so my thought is what else have they not be entirely truthful about.
For those of you who have an older model of LL you probably do have a quality product. For those buying new...do a good inspection and good luck. Oh, one more thing. The doors are not the only wood. The sides of the cabinets were a thin laminated wood sheeting. I was lead to believe this would be Azdel.
A6 that is hitting them right between the eyes. Bravo.
Hearing about other people's negative experience and impressions does nothing to diminish the pleasure and confidence I have in my choice - because I have yet to experience the same problems. For me, the biggest beef we have is still the razor sharp corners on the cabinets.
Yeah, there are some things about the layout. Yeah, I think we had some water come up through the aluminum floor planks, or maybe the wheel wells, while trailering in heavy rain. But we've had no roof leaks, no mechanical issues, no appliance failures.
OK, we had an exterior screw pop loose that held the trim on the front where the diamond deck meets the aluminum skin. And aluminum chips galore in the interior. But no plumbing leaks. Really, just the normal things you'd expect to fix in a portable house.
I hope the company views feedback like Alpha6's as something to learn from, rather than dismiss. That would be the healthy, and helpful reaction to unhappy feedback.
[quote timestamp="1452285631" author="@furpod" source="/post/17586/thread"]Wife and I were just on this subject at lunch. I would hope the results of the poll about the cabinets would get shown to whoever made that decision.. 1 person, ONE, of owners and prospective owners, voted for those new cabinets and doors. [/quote]just so we're clear...the cabinet structure did not change, just the doors.
alpha6, was that camper built in the new facility? I assume it was because 4 season construction was not available (to my knowledge) in the old facility. However, if we had planned to camp in the cold we would've never bought a LL anyway. The all aluminum floor and frame are very cold natured and not a great platform for 4 season camping in my opinion. I hope someone from Thor hears about your experience!
[quote source="/post/17651/thread" author="@surfsup" timestamp="1452518653"]alpha6, was that camper built in the new facility? I assume it was because 4 season construction was not available (to my knowledge) in the old facility. However, if we had planned to camp in the cold we would've never bought a LL anyway. The all aluminum floor and frame are very cold natured and not a great platform for 4 season camping in my opinion. I hope someone from Thor hears about your experience!
[/quote]It was newly built 2016 model. Aside from the fact the bottom won't keep out the cold...it won't keep out the critters either. Storing this in the winter you are going to have all kinds of things looking to make nests in there and there is nothing to keep them out. I have pics that I would like to post...but since I don't have a third account (flicker) I haven't been able to.
[quote source="/post/17658/thread" timestamp="1452529311" author="@alpha6"]I have pics that I would like to post...but since I don't have a third account (flicker) I haven't been able to. [/quote][font size="3"]Thanks to Sean we no longer have to use a third party account. Simply make sure each picture is less than 1 MB and upload as attachments. Limit is five pictures per post. I'd love to see them because I can't imagine LL thinking they could pass what you describe off as 4 season. [/font]
Quote from: @tlbones" source="/post/17650/thread" timestamp="1452514051[quote timestamp="1452285631" source="/post/17586/thread" author="@furpod"]Wife and I were just on this subject at lunch. I would hope the results of the poll about the cabinets would get shown to whoever made that decision.. 1 person, ONE, of owners and prospective owners, voted for those new cabinets and doors.
just so we're clear...the cabinet structure did not change, just the doors.[/quote]Just so we are clear, the construction of the doors, and the aviation style latches were a major selling point for us. I fully understand what can happen to wood in a trailer. I fully understand THIS bit of wood is not a real problem. Easily repaired if damaged in any way.
BUT.. it's a compounding of all the changes being reported since the sale and "no changes" claim by Thor, and the fact that we wanted the old doors and latches. We HAVE had cabinets empty during travel. New owners are literally reporting things like.. "Oh, it only has a single axle now??" The fact is, now, I could order one, and not know until the day it arrived, what it was REALLY configured like. and it would be configured however CL wants it to be, since customization, another reason we wanted a CL, is now also out the window.
Furpod,
Agree about customization!
We started looking at LivinLite Toy Haulers, but last time we contacted LivinLite before Thanksgiving, we were told we could not buy a new Bearcat BC16FK setup without the tip out bunk, replaced with a HappiJac bed. We were told we had to move up to the VRV 7X20 to have the HappiJac option. If we have to move up to a 20' toy hauler, ATC aluminum toy haulers are now on our radar, too. Will see!
While I share everyone's disappointment at LL's changes, I think that we are close to being seen as whiners by the factory. But I also think that an LL executive should chime in and clearly state what their approach to LL models is- wood or no wood, aluminum interior, one or two axles on the 16TBS, insulated 4 season truck campers, no customization, etc. The list of disappointing changes goes on and on.
Christanm, with all due respect you aren't cutting it. Statements like the single axle being "upgraded" to 4,400 lbs. on the 16TBS from twin 3,500 lb axles are not helpful. You are fast losing credibility.
Unless LL wants to ignore these complaints, Christianm, I think it is time for someone with authority and common sense to comprehensively respond here. Otherwise this topic has become an irrelevant exercise in futility.
David
I tend to agree with you David but I also think it's a bit unfair to put Christian in that light. I would not assume that she is has answers to some of the things we have issues with. Beyond that, I look at it this way, Livinlite already has our money, engaging with us on this level of detail has no monetary value for them at all. Common sense says that leveraging an existing buyers positive experience should be worth something but big business doesn't work on the common sense process.
[quote source="/post/17673/thread" author="@david" timestamp="1452552703"]Christanm, with all due respect you aren't cutting it. Statements like the single axle being "upgraded" to 4,400 lbs. on the 16TBS from twin 3,500 lb axles are not helpful. You are fast losing credibility.
David[/quote][font size="3"]I defense of Christian I believe she meant the single 4400# axle was better than a single 3500# axle would have been, not that the single 4400 was better than dual 3500s.
That said I agree we may be beating a dead horse. LL Thor will do whatever they think best for their profit line regardless of what present owners say.
[/font]
I went to a dealer today. I saw a 14 foot with the new single axle and the 15 inch tires. The same entrance single step is still used, but it is now 4 inches higher or at about the height of the bumper on a full size pickup. My wife at 5' 2" had to use 2 hands on the grab bar to get up the step. Could she enter with groceries? No. We have a small dog that can really jump, but I instantly felt that the height of the step was a real turn off to a short person or a pet owner. I can see someone trying to sell their partner on a camper and hearing that partner say I can't even get in that thing. Let's look at something else. There was a Lance camper near by with an easy 2 step entrance. I really can not understand how anyone would try to sell a camper and make it hard to enter.
One Livin Lite 2016 camper had the light colored wood(?) cabinet doors. They were what used to be called French Provencal in color with a bleached gray/blue finish. The floors were a very poor light yellow oak pattern plastic. " Gosh that's ugly" popped out of my mouth before I remembered my manners. I admit that I am a wood color lover even when fake wood is used, but again I wonder about the taste of the new owners. If they have to add 2 or 3 hundred pounds of weight in real wood doors with cheap hinges to appeal to a bigger market, why not at least make them look good? I would really recommend that anyone wanting to order the light colored interior take a trip to see one in person first.
I also think the new owners don't yet realize how special Camplite is in the trailer world. It was unique and can still be in the future. Unique sells at high price. Ask Airstream. Unique has dealers wanting that profit margin. Ask Airstream dealers. Ask the vanilla trailer dealers with the same old same old 5 year til death by rot or death by broken truck towing a too heavy trailer dealer if they could sell a 2015 Camplite with a few modifications by this forum? Look at the Honda fit. Wow, a car costing less than 20,000 with a standard sun roof and " magic seats" that let me transport large things that other cars this size can't. There has been a waiting list for this low price car. I believe that Camplite could deliver a superior product at a reasonable price and have a awaiting list. All it would take is good marketing and engineering that is already there.
I went to a dealer today. I saw a 14 foot with the new single axle and the 15 inch tires. The same entrance single step is still used, but it is now 4 inches higher or at about the height of the bumper on a full size pickup. My wife at 5' 2" had to use 2 hands on the grab bar to get up the step. Could she enter with groceries? No. We have a small dog that can really jump, but I instantly felt that the height of the step was a real turn off to a short person or a pet owner. I can see someone trying to sell their partner on a camper and hearing that partner say I can't even get in that thing. Let's look at something else. There was a Lance camper near by with an easy 2 step entrance. I really can not understand how anyone would try to sell a camper and make it hard to enter.
One Livin Lite 2016 camper had the light colored wood(?) cabinet doors. They were what used to be called French Provencal in color with a bleached gray/blue finish. The floors were a very poor light yellow oak pattern plastic. " Gosh that's ugly" popped out of my mouth before I remembered my manners. I admit that I am a wood color lover even when fake wood is used, but again I wonder about the taste of the new owners. If they have to add 2 or 3 hundred pounds of weight in real wood doors with cheap hinges to appeal to a bigger market, why not at least make them look good? I would really recommend that anyone wanting to order the light colored interior take a trip to see one in person first.
I also think the new owners don't yet realize how special Camplite is in the trailer world. It was unique and can still be in the future. Unique sells at high price. Ask Airstream. Unique has dealers wanting that profit margin. Ask Airstream dealers. Ask the vanilla trailer dealers with the same old same old 5 year til death by rot or death by broken truck towing a too heavy trailer dealer if they could sell a 2015 Camplite with a few modifications by this forum? Look at the Honda fit. Wow, a car costing less than 20,000 with a standard sun roof and " magic seats" that let me transport large things that other cars this size can't. There has been a waiting list for this low price car. I believe that Camplite could deliver a superior product at a reasonable price and have a awaiting list. All it would take is good marketing and engineering that is already there.
Quote from: @charliem" source="/post/17678/thread" timestamp="1452554450[quote source="/post/17673/thread" author="@david" timestamp="1452552703"]Christanm, with all due respect you aren't cutting it. Statements like the single axle being "upgraded" to 4,400 lbs. on the 16TBS from twin 3,500 lb axles are not helpful. You are fast losing credibility.
David
[font size="3"]I defense of Christian I believe she meant the single 4400# axle was better than a single 3500# axle would have been, not that the single 4400 was better than dual 3500s.
That said I agree we may be beating a dead horse. LL Thor will do whatever they think best for their profit line regardless of what present owners say.
[/font][/quote]I'm with Charlie. I think Christian is doing a good service, and we don't need to beat her up personally when we need to throw a rock thru LL's window. Yay Christian !!
I'm a net promoter for LL, as I think most of us are. What is frustrating is to see them change all the things that make us so enthusiastic in our promotion of the product.
I personally get many people commenting on our trailer whenever we camp. Hell, I had some crazy lady follow me for like 7 miles from the highway until she caught up with us in a parking lot, just to look at our trailer. One of the things I always point out is how it is about the only trailer in this size with 2 axles. It boggles the mind as to who thought this was something that needed to be changed. Boggles, I tells ya. Boggles.
When I read Christian's comments about the change from the dual to a single axle , she was addressing Charlie's legitimate concern that LL had simply removed one axle and left a single 3500# one. She passed on what the LL engineers told her. I think it is optimistic to expect upper management to directly address the concerns of some current owners regarding changes that LL is making. However, when potential purchasers such as scbillandjane point out the apparent need for a ladder to enter the single axel units, one has to question what the engineers who determined that a single, larger axle was an improvement were thinking when they left a single step on the units. It has been asked here and in other forums: do the designers and engineers actually use the RV's that they build? Christian is doing what she said she would do; following up on concerns from individual owners directly with them, and passing on the input from forum members to her superiors. Thanks, Christian.
[font size="3" face="comic sans ms"]Christian, good job, you go girl !![/font]
Quote from: @david" source="/post/17673/thread" timestamp="1452552703While I share everyone's disappointment at LL's changes, I think that we are close to being seen as whiners by the factory. But I also think that an LL executive should chime in and clearly state what their approach to LL models is- wood or no wood, aluminum interior, one or two axles on the 16TBS, insulated 4 season truck campers, no customization, etc. The list of disappointing changes goes on and on.
Christanm, with all due respect you aren't cutting it. Statements like the single axle being "upgraded" to 4,400 lbs. on the 16TBS from twin 3,500 lb axles are not helpful. You are fast losing credibility.
Unless LL wants to ignore these complaints, Christianm, I think it is time for someone with authority and common sense to comprehensively respond here. Otherwise this topic has become an irrelevant exercise in futility.
David
I think you have unrealistic expectations here. All in all I think we are fortunate that the factory even pays us any attention at all, let alone having a dedicated liaison to interact with. Christian has been more than willing to help where she can, go and find answers when needed, and/or get users in contact with the right people to help. No one should expect her to be an expert in areas that she would not typically work in and expecting otherwise (to use your term) is an exercise in futility.
There is plenty of leeway on this forum to express differences in opinions, ideas, frustrations, just about anything. However I will not allow it to cross into personal attacks, so everyone please keep it civil.
It is also my personal opinion that statements such as "bless your heart", "all due respect", "no offense but", etc. are not magic erasers. They dont allow people to say something rude or offensive just because they are said.
A good friend of ours called last weekend asking about our Camplite. She knew we were having some great experiences camping with it and that we really liked both it and the opportunities it opened up for us as a long-term investment in fun. She has a T@B and was inquiring on behalf of another friend of hers about getting a trailer with a bathroom (among other things). My wife extolled the many virtues of the Camplite, cautioning only to find and use a good dealer and to make sure the trailer delivered had the expected features. She also mentioned this forum, one of the valuable aspects of Camplite ownership.
Early on, we picked this forum out for the thoughtful, useful, humorous, and level-headed posts from an obviously good bunch of folks. I hope it stays that way. When LL makes a bone-headed decision (single axle 16 comes to mind), this forum should vent loud and long. So long as that that criticism is part of the larger picture by also posting the fun we are having with our campers, it likely won't cross the line into whining or worse.
I know from other forums I participate in that don't have a "Christian" that hers is an extremely valuable role both here and within the company. No communication system is even close to perfect, but having LL engage two-way with social media like this forum helps close an otherwise huge communications gap. Knowing a bit about how difficult her type of job is, kudos to her for what she has been able to do.
I say keep the sense of humor, voice the disappointments and frustrations, but also post often about the good times.
I'm heading into my second camping season and my overall opinion is that I still made a good choice with my CL, There were issues with the trailer that needed attention, (quality control) and some of them were mind boggling. But, I'm still happy with my purchase. Having owned several different trailers, I still consider CL's all aluminum construction to be superior. Unless something catastrophic happens, I don't see any reason to be unhappy with their product.
Even though we are only one week into our first trip in our new camper, we are loving our 21BHS. Sure, it would have been nice for them to include an inside switch for the electric side of the water heater, and it would have been nice of them to NOT wire the WH and Microwave on the same circuit breaker (each are supposed to have their own), but those are things that can be taken care of and are relatively small in the grand scheme of things. The trailer itself is solid and of good construction, quality, fit and tows like a charm. We have already received a number of compliments from various campers and people we've meet so far on the trip. After showing one of them the inside, he went as far to say that it was the nicest trailer he's ever seen! He loved the construction, layout, and all of the features that are included. As disappointing as we all might be in what the new ownership is doing to the campers (especially the single axle16 footers), they are still making some pretty good trailers.
Gregg
I was looking at the 16 foot models, my wife didn't like the fact that the bathroom didn't have a sink, I rarely use the bathroom, (unless the campground bathrooms are a horror). I posted some of the issues with mine, really stuff that should never have made it out of the factory, this is my third full size trailer and it is by far the best one as far as construction is concerned. The appliances are pretty standard industry wide and I never had any issues with them in any of the trailers I owned.
[font size="3"]The next cost cutting deletion?
In thinking about what Thor might delete next I thought about the slide awning or slide topper as they call it. Many competitive, and even some high end, campers do not provide them and their absence might not immediately be noticed by new or prospective owners. Not the end of the world, they can be added later, but they sure are nice and handy. Keep an eye out.[/font]
I want to weigh in on the changes for Camplites. People talk to us all the time about what a pretty trailer we have, and how it matches our Jeep Grand Cherokee, which is our tow vehicle.
We no longer invite people inside to look at the trailer, because they will not be able to get what I have (custom Camplite 21-BHS). One lady (in a Class A) invited herself into the trailer a few days ago to have a closer look, telling me she enjoyed camping more when she and her husband had a smaller trailer. She liked our Camplite, but I told her that LL was no longer making them like this.
We are going to the Oregon rally. The president of LL is supposed to attend, as well. The best marketing tool for LL is its current happy customers. I hope that we can have a good dialogue.
BTW, we love our Camplite, with all of the custom changes we made to it. This is perfect for us. It is not too small, and not too large - JUST RIGHT!
We are not tinkering with it. We have taken a trip every month since my husband retired in April, and now we are wandering around Central Florida until mid-March. We have things we need to do, such as put up more Command hooks, but we are having so much fun exploring and socializing with other RVers, we have not made the time!
Quote from: @gbpack" source="/post/17696/thread" timestamp="1452631078......... and it would have been nice of them to NOT wire the WH and Microwave on the same circuit breaker (each are supposed to have their own).........
Gregg
[font size="3"]Something doesn't compute, Gregg. The WH element is 1440 watts and the micro is 1500 watts. If both are running at the same time that exceeds 24A and should trip a 15A breaker. Does this also mean you have an empty breaker slot?[/font]
Quote from: @charliem" source="/post/17706/thread" timestamp="1452651100[quote source="/post/17696/thread" timestamp="1452631078" author="@gbpack"]......... and it would have been nice of them to NOT wire the WH and Microwave on the same circuit breaker (each are supposed to have their own).........
Gregg
[font size="3"]Something doesn't compute, Gregg. The WH element is 1440 watts and the micro is 1500 watts. If both are running at the same time that exceeds 24A and should trip a 15A breaker. Does this also mean you have an empty breaker slot?[/font]
[/quote]
Charlie - yes, we have been tripping the 15 amp circuit breaker that they are both wired to every time we run the microwave when the electric water heater happens to be heating. I have proven that both are wired to the same 15 amp circuit through tests that I have done while watching the Amps being pulled on the power surge monitor. There are breakers in every slot, but I believe that we have a circuit breaker that doesn't have anything hooked up to it. Will take it into the dealer when we get back from this trip. In the meantime, we will have to avoid running the microwave when the WH is drawing power.
[font size="3"]Ah so. That computes. That also took real creativity at the assembly station. But all will be corrected when you get home and properly install the inside switch. BTW, when I am running a 1500W ceramic heater and want to hit the micro I use the red switch to temporarily disable the WH. Try it, you'll like it ;) ;)
[/font]
I have nothing to add here except to say that I don't have the 2-way WH, have only used propane to heat water. We camped 20+ times over 2 seasons and have yet to exhaust the first of 2 full cans of propane provided by the dealer at the time of purchase !!
We've used the propane furnace, I think, twice for an aggregate 30 minutes time, and I vaguely remember using it to heat a can of soup that first weekend on the stove - I suppose I should check to see if the stove still works. One of these days.
In summation, "nyah nyah nyah !!!!"
[quote timestamp="1452653563" source="/post/17711/thread" author="@pinstriper"]I have nothing to add here except to say that I don't have the 2-way WH, have only used propane to heat water. We camped 20+ times over 2 seasons and have yet to exhaust the first of 2 full cans of propane provided by the dealer at the time of purchase !!
We've used the propane furnace, I think, twice for an aggregate 30 minutes time, and I vaguely remember using it to heat a can of soup that first weekend on the stove - I suppose I should check to see if the stove still works. One of these days.
In summation, "nyah nyah nyah !!!!"
[/quote]Interesting.. the specs since I have been looking at them have always shown a 2-way WH, at least I think they did. Was yours special ordered?
[font size="3"]The two way WH didn't become "standard" until recently. When I ordered my 21 in fall of 2013 I had to specifically request it. Thanks to my RPOD experience I knew what to look for.
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In August of '13 when we toured the factory with the intent of ordering a 21RBS, they had 4-5 there, completed, they all had a 2-way. What they didn't have that was important to us, was the now standard shower skylight (but all the truck campers did..??). Very interesting company for sure.
So much for LL consistency, we have a 2015 21RBS built in 2014, it came with the shower skylight but has the propane only WH :D
We love it more with every trip!!!
So I'm starting to wonder if some of us (like yours truly) who think we have a propane-only water heater might actually have a two-way one just without the old red inside switch for the electric element... :-S (Just like in the other thread where folks didn't know the windows have a secure ventilation feature).
Where exactly should we look for the outside switch??
[quote source="/post/17804/thread" timestamp="1452892132" author="@peislander"]Where exactly should we look for the outside switch??[/quote][font size="3"]The best clue is the WH model number. [/font][font size="3"]The model number is on a label inside the access door. [/font][font size="3"]The dual mode heater is model SW6DE. The gas only model is SW6D. If it's electric there is a small black rocker switch on the lower left corner of the WH inside the outside access panel. There should also be a labeled circuit breaker if all was done correctly. Another hint would be if the cold heater draws ~12A when plugged into shore power. [/font]
[quote source="/post/17804/thread" timestamp="1452892132" author="@peislander"]So I'm starting to wonder if some of us (like yours truly) who think we have a propane-only water heater might actually have a two-way one just without the old red inside switch for the electric element... :-S (Just like in the other thread where folks didn't know the windows have a secure ventilation feature).
Where exactly should we look for the outside switch??[/quote]Model number will tell you, but a picture is often needed, even if you know you have an electric WH, to find the switch ON the WH.. That said, I have picture, and will share it when photobucket gets it's head out of it's ...
BUT if you open the WH outside cover, look in the lower left corner area, BEHIND the propane burner tube, a small black on off switch.
(http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w88/maypo59/R-Pod/WH%20switch_zpspep9zvzo.jpg)
SW6D is what I have..
Quote from: @surfsup" timestamp="1453293814" source="/post/17906/threadSW6D is what I have..
[font size="3"]That's gas only in a 2015. LL Thor should make gas/electric standard or at least offer it as and option. Most buyers won't be aware of the issue until they've bought and hauled the trailer. Then it's too late or expensive to retrofit. [/font]
[quote timestamp="1453299234" source="/post/17907/thread" author="@charliem"][quote source="/post/17906/thread" timestamp="1453293814" author="@surfsup"]SW6D is what I have..[/quote][font size="3"]That's gas only in a 2015. LL Thor should make gas/electric standard or at least offer it as and option. Most buyers won't be aware of the issue until they've bought and hauled the trailer. Then it's too late or expensive to retrofit. [/font]
[/quote][font size="4"]Update: [font size="3"]I see from the Standards section of the web site that LL is now supplying combo gas/electric WH as a standard. Don't know when this was incorporated, but it's the right solution. [/font][/font]
My 21 BHS is listed as a 2016 (built in June 2015) and believe it or not I never gave it any thought or checked. I will check it tonight and let you know which unit came in my camper.
Well sure enough propane only. Looks like up to summer of 2015 they were not using the gas/electric. Planned on putting in an on- demand this year anyway so no real issues on my end.
There is a kit that converts the SW6D to gas/electric. Fairly cheap too. We thought seriously about installing one when we bought the camper but our dealer advised us to wait and see how we like the gas unit. As it turns out, we're totally happy with the gas only. It heats water very fast and uses very little gas.
Went to Chicago RV show earlier to see what's new for 2016. Also, I wanted to see the Thor made 21RBS on display.
Overall, I saw some interesting stuff including cool media and entertainment features. Was also impressed to see some upgrades to some of the models we considered before we bought our 2015 13BHB. However, I was disappointed when I checked the 2016 Camplite 21RBS. Sure it feels warm with the covered floor and the wood cabinet doors. But it's not the same "no rust, no rot" RV that really attracted me to buy Camplite. It felt like just any other travel trailer. I dunno, maybe it's just me.
LivinLite will be offering, as an option in the near future, their old style, composite door. Due to demand they made changes by adding the wood raised panel door in hopes to increase their market share. I must admit I was reluctant at first but the new styles and colours certainly do add to the overall look.
The new changes are not all bad. The solid counter tops, bigger sink, update taps etc. certainly enhance the look.
What I really do not agree with is the discontinued model. The 13 QBB and the 13 BHB were nice very light weight units that opened the marked for smaller SUV's to tow. Also moving away from the tandem axle on 16' and below is just a BAD move. I believe the 16 BHB is tandem but the 16 TBS is a single axle. The 14 ' tandem made lots of sense so unfortunately I believe another bad move.
I know all their new models will be updated and on line by the end of next month so Im curious to see what they will have to offer in models.
Just saying...
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I don't know if it is a correction or an actual change, but the hitch weight on the 11FK is now listed as 410 pounds. It used to be around 140; also listed as 225 at times in the past. My TV has a limit of 200 pounds hitch weight; the manual clearly states that the 200 limit is not be exceeded. I am aware that this can be altered by the manner in which the CL is loaded, and by the number of LP tanks. But this is certainly confusing for shoppers, and potentially dangerous. By the way, anyone have experience with , or opinion of, the Safari Condo Alto trailers? No wood, lots of aluminum, and not too heavy. Pricey, but so are CL's. I had been looking at small class C rv's, but a truly light-weight trailer that is well built would still be of interest to me.
Farmboy, Last year we met a guy who had the Safari Alto. It was a pretty unique unit that he had modified some for his own use. As it is mostly a glass like unit all around, it was quite hot inside even with the air on. We were at the ocean and there was quite a bit of sun, but he seemed to like it. We have been looking at a Lance and are very much liking them. They may be our next move.
Livinthegoodlife, thanks for the info. Just heard from the factory;they are taking orders for June 2017 build date. We may take a road trip to the factory to see them, but that won't happen till this summer.....that would probably push the build date back to 2018! The rigid wall model has less glass; the teardrop models do have more moving parts and more glass than I would like to see, but the weight and style of both models appeals to us. I may try to see a small Lance if I can find one in our area.
We have a friend with an Alto.. camped with them a couple times. I wouldn't have one for half the price. It's near impossible to cool, theirs at least, doesn't have a bathroom, just a porta-potty, has a weird IKEA kit furniture feel to it. And, you have to reconfigure the bed to bench to bed to bench to use either..
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[quote source="/post/18901/thread" timestamp="1456154872" author="@farmboy"]I don't know if it is a correction or an actual change, but the hitch weight on the 11FK is now listed as 410 pounds. It used to be around 140; also listed as 225 at times in the past. My TV has a limit of 200 pounds hitch weight; the manual clearly states that the 200 limit is not be exceeded. I am aware that this can be altered by the manner in which the CL is loaded, and by the number of LP tanks. But this is certainly confusing for shoppers, and potentially dangerous. By the way, anyone have experience with , or opinion of, the Safari Condo Alto trailers? No wood, lots of aluminum, and not too heavy. Pricey, but so are CL's. I had been looking at small class C rv's, but a truly light-weight trailer that is well built would still be of interest to me. [/quote]
That 410 lbs seems like it might be a typo on LivinLite's part...without moving the axle back considerably and moving the water tanks, I'm not sure they could increase the tongue weight that much. There's also no reason to have 20% tongue weight when 10% is the norm...just doesn't make any sense.
Graham
Graham: LL got back to me on the new, higher weights listed online for the 11 foot model; the higher numbers are correct and they are averages....so, some of them must be even heavier. Perhaps the wood, new counters, stainless sink, etc. are causing the increases.
I'm a newbie, and don't own a travel trailer yet, but have been reading about them for a while. Got really excited about the 16tbs, after watching a YouTube dealer walk through, but then I joined this forum and yikes! Seems to be a familiar theme. A company does well. Sells a great product. Really seems to care about quality. Then a bigger company makes an offer the little guy can't refuse, so the big bean counters take over, cheapen the product, and ruin it. A single axle is a deal breaker for me. Won't do it. Back to the searching. Sad.
Before you give up you may want to check with a few dealers, they may have some of the older stock on their lots yet.
Quote from: @mitch" source="/post/19434/thread" timestamp="1457651064Before you give up you may want to check with a few dealers, they may have some of the older stock on their lots yet.
There are a couple of 15s left over at International Rv in Mt Pleasant Mi. Just tell them I sent ya , referral and all lol....
'Phil
i bought my 2015 21 bhs from them just after Christmas
good dealer to deal with...