I just bought a new 16 TBS from a dealer in NC. It has twin axles not the new single axle. It also has the old type of cabinets with the pull lock. I was going to order a new one in March till I found out about the changes. I will have to pull it home in the next week or so to its new home in Austin,TX (got to check the weather first).
Congrats on the new camper and welcome. Glad you found one of the few remaining models with 2 axles. We owner a 2013 16 DB and loved it but out grew it quickly. Would still own it if they had offered a slide back then. Anyway happy camping!
Welcome! Good decision. I look forward to the trip home story (which I hope is really boring).
Welcome to the family! I'm here on behalf of the Livin Lite factory, so if you need anything, just let me know!
Well it was anything but boring. The trailer had a 2 and 5/16 class 4 hitch. This caused me to lose a day and a half locating and getting new hitch with sway control. The different hitch that I got did not work very well and the trip home was a white nuckler.
Well, that's a bummer. But very interesting they are putting such a heavy duty hitch on the 16. White-knuckling from NC to TX must have been pretty low on your list of fun things to do. When you recover, post the details of hitch and sway control in the towing section of the forum so others can learn and keep their knuckles normal color.
[quote source="/post/17628/thread" timestamp="1452466462" author="@popup2012"]Well it was anything but boring. The trailer had a 2 and 5/16 class 4 hitch. This caused me to lose a day and a half locating and getting new hitch with sway control. The different hitch that I got did not work very well and the trip home was a white nuckler.
[/quote]I'd love to hear more about what didn't work well, what made your knuckles white.
I don't even know that you should need sway control for a comfortable tow. So some more details would be very interesting.
[p]I too am surprised that towing a twin axle 16TBS with a Tacoma with a WDH was a white knuckle experience. The only thing I can think of is that the tongue weight was very light. Mine was 240 lbs as delivered, but towable with a 2013 Pathfinder and no sway control. Even better now that tongue weight is about 300 lbs.[/p][p]
[/p][p]If this is your problem then increase tongue weight by:
Move stuff to the pass through compartment.
Add another battery.
Add a second LPG tank
David[/p]
[font size="3"]There is another explanation, depending on who and how the WDH was installed. An improperly installed and/or adjusted WDH can be a very disturbing and dangerous ride. I know from experience. My first RV dealer installed a WDH for my first camper back when I knew even less than I know now. Upside down, loose, and improperly set! Could have been disaster. Read and understand the book and check it yourself!
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Here is a short story:
Pick up the Trailer and it went all over the road( no WDH).
Went back to dealer and parked it. Called Andersen and they said get a 3350.
Found one 2 hours away. Picked it up and went back to dealer to have it installed.
Dealer had never seen one but installed it ($$). The trailer was level according to his Iphone. Did not check truck.
Took off and it was still swaying but not jumping. Drove 3 hours to a Andersen dealer who reset the hitch (in the rain and did not charge me for 30 minutes work). Yea for Sonnys RV in NC. He could not get the truck and trailer level but did the best he could. He said the hitch needed to be lower but setting it at the bottom and middle holes would be too much. It was OK but still had sway and the headlights lit up the road signs a half a mile away. I added 150 lbs of gravel in the front compartment in hopes it would level out the Trailer but no luck. Made it home but was very stressful.
This is not the first time I have driven trucks with trailers. In the military I have driven 5 ton trucks with trailers (20 KW gen) quite a lot. Also old jeeps with trailers which have a nasty habit of flipping with no notice.
Something is/was very wrong with your rig. I would first check the tongue weight with nothing in it. Put a couple of boards over a bathroom scale- they will usually go up to 300 lbs, and jack the tongue up on it. Mine was 240 lbs as delivered.
But if your lights were pointed skyward, then it sounds like too much not too little tongue weight. With lots of tongue weight, say 400 lbs to point your headlights up, the trailer should not sway while towing with a Tacoma.
So I am flummoxed at your towing sway problem. But check the actual tongue weight and let's go from there.
David
[quote source="/post/17672/thread" author="@david" timestamp="1452552073"]Something is/was very wrong with your rig. I would first check the tongue weight with nothing in it. Put a couple of boards over a bathroom scale- they will usually go up to 300 lbs, and jack the tongue up on it. Mine was 240 lbs as delivered.
But if your lights were pointed skyward, then it sounds like too much not too little tongue weight. With lots of tongue weight, say 400 lbs to point your headlights up, the trailer should not sway while towing with a Tacoma.
So I am flummoxed at your towing sway problem. But check the actual tongue weight and let's go from there.
David[/quote][font size="3"]I must agree with David: something is very wrong. Let me add a few points. The Tacoma is a capable TV, but it will benefit from some weight redistribution. The Anderson is probably not the best choice for WDHs. According to other owners it is good in controlling sway, but does little for weight distribution. That's just the geometry and physics of it. As such it's more suited for full sized pickups.
The trailer is leveled by adjusting the height of the ball, not by the WDH mechanism. The WDH benefits the TV, not the TT. The rear of the TV will and should sag somewhat. The WDH is adjusted to get the TV front wheels back on the ground. It will correct some, but not all, rear sag. BTW, that's why unloaded pickups appear to sit nose down. Some sag is anticipated. If the front wheels are too light due to excessive uncorrected tongue weight steering will be iffy at best and dangerous at worst.
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Yeah this doesn't smell right. A CL16XXX doesn't weigh enough that you should need WDH. In fact it doesn't weigh enough for a WDH to actually start working.
Maaaaaaybe a sway bar...nah. A newish Taco should handle this without breaking a sweat.
What did you have in the truck bed ? Any aftermarket suspension mods ? Lifted, lowered, etc. ?
Something else is going on, here.
The tongue weight in the 16 TBS was 270, not the advertised 380. In the next few days I think I will drop the ball on the hitch to the bottom and middle holes. It is now on the 2 and 4 holes.
How many miles on the Taco? Any chance the shocks are iffy? For sure try the other holes on the hitch. If things aren't very close to level, there is not much chance of controlling sway and steering/handling will be awful. I assume the WDH is installed correctly since an Andersen dealer looked at it. However, take a look at the installation instructions and make a few measurements to confirm for yourself that the brackets are located correctly, installed the right direction, and that the chain length is adequate. If you have the double propane tanks on your 16, the Andersen WDH will need some chain links added to be installed correctly behind the tanks (mine did). That first dealer may not have taken the time to do that and installed the brackets too close to the hitch. You'll see what I mean if you take a look at the installation instructions. Need photos?
2012 Taco with 28,000 miles[attachment id="1090" thumbnail="1"]
[font size="3"]I can't comment in detail on the Anderson because I don't have one, but it looks like the ball could be lowered. If perfect level is not possible it's preferable to tow nose down. Actually it's perfectly acceptable and is slightly more aerodynamically stable. Merlin, djsamuels and others with Andersons should jump in here.
I also don't like the angle of the chain attachment bracket, but it may not be correctable without drilling, which is a no no. There is a tremendous sideways force on those brackets which accounts for the poor weight distribution performance of the Anderson. I tow a 21RBs with 525# on the tongue with a Taco and an E2 WDH with absolutely no problem. Very stable and comfortable.
I notice the coupler does not have the side bolts. The 2-5/16 coupler is an improvement and is stronger, but it can still benefit from the side bolts if you want to apply weight distribution.
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Yeah those brackets look jacked up to me. Like 6" brackets on a 4" frame.
I still wanna know what the tongue weight is, and I'm not convinced WDH is necessary with this trailer/TV combination. Was this tried with just a plain old hitch/ball at the correct drop ?
And what else was in the truck bed that could be overloading the back end ?
I run with 6 threads showing on the chain-end bolt. You might try adjusting that up or down. The chains pull on the friction cone the hitch ball sits in and provides the sway control. The tighter that nut (more threads showing on the chain-end bolt), the more sway control. I think the angle of the brackets on the frame is just barely ok. Mine are at a shallower angle because I lengthened the chains to clear the propane tank support. The chain needed to be able to slip a bit in the bracket while underway so the red cushion thingie can do it's job and soften the operation of the hitch. Otherwise, I agree that a bit nose down is best if not level. Try some different holes on the hitch mount?
28,000 miles on the Taco is great! It's a keeper!
Charlie: I don't get the comment about sideways forces. Isn't all the force on those brackets a straight pull in line with the chain? Or is that what you meant?
Pinstripes: The 16 has a 3 inch frame, the smallest that will work at all with the Andersen.
[quote source="/post/17710/thread" timestamp="1452653192" author="@sandroad"]Charlie: I don't get the comment about sideways forces. Isn't all the force on those brackets a straight pull in line with the chain? Or is that what you meant?[/quote][font size="3"]Yes, that's what I meant. The brackets on the E2 use the same two bolt clamping attachment, but the majority of force is downward. Even so the frictional force that provides sway control tends to move the brackets if not really tight. The Anderson starts out with a tremendous preload (chain tension) to attempt weight distribution.
Also the length of chain doesn't affect the force on the brackets. It's the same short or long and is always in line with the chain. I suppose, once angled, it doesn't really make much difference but it just looks bad.
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I ask the Andersen people about the bars on the frame and they said no problem. I agree it does not look OK. They said I should take more turns on the tension nuts and if that did not work, drop to the bottom holes on the hitch (bottom hole and middle hole). I had to put the trailer in storage today (cannot keep it at house for over 48 hrs at a time). Later this week I will pull it out and try some other things.
This is very relevant to me because I'm looking for ways to take the last bit of bounce out of towing.
[quote source="/post/17713/thread" timestamp="1452655099" author="@popup2012"]I ask the Andersen people about the bars on the frame and they said no problem. I agree it does not look OK. They said I should take more turns on the tension nuts and if that did not work, drop to the bottom holes on the hitch (bottom hole and middle hole). I had to put the trailer in storage today (cannot keep it at house for over 48 hrs at a time). Later this week I will pull it out and try some other things.
[/quote][font size="3"]Again, I don't have an Anderson so I'm not the expert, but I can summarize other WDH setup rules. First, the WDH corrects the TV, not the TT. As such the height of the tongue and the leveling of the trailer should be set by the ball height. The ball should be lowered first. Then you should measure the sag of the TV at the rear fenders with the WDH disabled. For the Anderson this would be with the chains loose. With the WDH enabled the goal should be to recover about half that rear fender sag. Attempting to recover all the rear sag will result in too much stress in the WDH system and is probably not achievable anyway. Some residual sag is OK. This should also correct most of the increase in front fender height which results from unloading the front axle. That said, the Taco/16xxx should not need much weight distribution. It doesn't take much to significantly damp porpoising, at least on spring bar type hitches. [/font]
The installation of the Andersen hitch looks fine, much like my install, which has been terrific for about 8,000 miles. I think the issue is not the WDH since the truck really should not need one, as pinstriper also stated above. At 270 pounds of tongue weight, the truck's back end should not be dropping that much. Something else seems to be an issue here. I think we're missing the real issue by concentrating on the WDH. In fact, it seems as though the towing was even worse without the WDH. At those weights, even a plain hitch tow should not be bad.
I have the Anderson WDH and until recently a 2013 Tacoma. The angle on the WDH is correct, the instructions even say that there will be an angle. Based on my experience and research I think the issue is twofold. First the tongue weight on the camper is to light. When I first started towing my 13QBB it was a bit wiggly when it was empty. When loaded AND with about 8 gallons of fresh water in the tank it was markedly different, this without the WDH at all. Second, the Tacoma has a weak rear end. I couldn't understand why I had so much squat with such a light trailer so I started searching. I found numerous Toyota forums that said the springs on the Tacoma were to few and too light. My solution of running with some water in the tanks and adding the WDH to reduce sway and bounce at the hitch changed the way it pulled completely.
[quote source="/post/17704/thread" timestamp="1452648928" author="@popup2012"]2012 Taco with 28,000 miles
[/quote][font size="3"]For you Taco owners this may or may not apply. When I started towing with my 2013 Taco I noticed a vibration when accelerating in low gears in the 0-20MPH range. It felt like the typical drive train or U-joint problem. Some research showed this was a known and documented TACO problem beginning in 2009. When I took the new truck back to Toyota the fessed up and fixed it under warranty, but there was no recall. They just fixed when owners complained! As part of the fix they replaced the rear springs with a beefier version including an additional leaf. Some links to start your education:[/font]
[a href="http://www.aboutautomobile.com/Complaint/2013/Toyota/Tacoma/Power+Train"]http://www.aboutautomobile.com/Complaint/2013/Toyota/Tacoma/Power+Train[/a]
[a href="http://www.tacomahq.com/3392/toyota-tacoma-driveline-vibration-tsb-2005-2014/"]http://www.tacomahq.com/3392/toyota-tacoma-driveline-vibration-tsb-2005-2014/[/a]
[a href="http://www.tacomahq.com/2629/driveline-vibration-expand-tsb/"]http://www.tacomahq.com/2629/driveline-vibration-expand-tsb/[/a]
I'll bet beefier springs would do the trick! Many of the symptoms seemed to indicate a rear suspension issue.
I am getting too much squat on the truck. I took it in under warranty and complained about the springs but they said nothing was wrong. I am going to try again tomorrow and see what they say.
Quote from: @popup2012" source="/post/17762/thread" timestamp="1452816517I am getting too much squat on the truck. I took it in under warranty and complained about the springs but they said nothing was wrong. I am going to try again tomorrow and see what they say.
[font size="3"]How many leaves are in your rear springs? I ended up with four after the fix/upgrade. I average 1-7/16" drop w/o the WDH
as measured at the rear wheel fenders, although it varies from left to right. This is with 525# tongue weight. I would expect you to get less. [/font]
[quote source="/post/17762/thread" timestamp="1452816517" author="@popup2012"]I am getting too much squat on the truck. I took it in under warranty and complained about the springs but they said nothing was wrong. I am going to try again tomorrow and see what they say.
[/quote]Take in the Technical Service Bulletin number that Charlie posted. It always helps to go armed with specific information.
Well this morning I went over the TT and measured the squat. From the bar coming out of the truck hitch holder, 18 3/4, then I dropped the TT down on the ball, 17 3/4. Not nearly what I expected. Also I am attaching a picture of the spring, looks like 4 bars if you count the bottom one.
[p]Good input. With 1" of sag due to the tongue weight, you don't need a WDH and you don't need better springs. I would throw away your Andersen WDH (which doesn't do much for weight distribution anyway) and go without.[/p][p]
[/p][p]I also don't believe that you need any sway control either. My 2013 Pathfinder doesn't and it sags more than yours so it has a softer rear end. You might want to shift more weight forward in the trailer which increases tongue weight and helps with sway. But if you don't have any sway, don't bother.[/p][p]
[/p][p]David
[/p]
[quote source="/post/17787/thread" timestamp="1452878916" author="@popup2012"]Well this morning I went over the TT and measured the squat. From the bar coming out of the truck hitch holder, 18 3/4, then I dropped the TT down on the ball, 17 3/4. Not nearly what I expected. Also I am attaching a picture of the spring, looks like 4 bars if you count the bottom one.
[/quote][font size="3"]One inch at the draw bar is not bad at all. Yes, you have four leaves, but the lowest doesn't appear to do much until there's considerable loading. Almost looks bent or installed upside down. My fourth leaf is hard up to the other three so they all work from the start. Interesting difference. The minimal sag may indicate too little tongue weight and maybe the Anderson was compensating too much. Too much WD gets really squirrelly and dangerous.
If you continue to use that type of anti-sway device most people suggest disconnecting it before backing up. It tends to bend with the sharp angles encountered. [/font]
[quote source="/post/17668/thread" timestamp="1452546337" author="@popup2012"]Here is a short story:
Pick up the Trailer and it went all over the road( no WDH).
Went back to dealer and parked it. Called Andersen and they said get a 3350.
Found one 2 hours away. Picked it up and went back to dealer to have it installed.
Dealer had never seen one but installed it ($$). The trailer was level according to his Iphone. Did not check truck.
Took off and it was still swaying but not jumping. Drove 3 hours to a Andersen dealer who reset the hitch (in the rain and did not charge me for 30 minutes work). Yea for Sonnys RV in NC. He could not get the truck and trailer level but did the best he could. He said the hitch needed to be lower but setting it at the bottom and middle holes would be too much. It was OK but still had sway and the headlights lit up the road signs a half a mile away. I added 150 lbs of gravel in the front compartment in hopes it would level out the Trailer but no luck. Made it home but was very stressful.
This is not the first time I have driven trucks with trailers. In the military I have driven 5 ton trucks with trailers (20 KW gen) quite a lot. Also old jeeps with trailers which have a nasty habit of flipping with no notice.
[/quote]Going back to the original symptoms and attempted solutions......
I think sway control by getting the Andersen adjusted correctly (with the trailer at travel weight) is a good idea. And, there is no need to disconnect the Andersen when backing. The hitch smoothly and easily adjusts to angles when backing; no bending anywhere.
[quote source="/post/17810/thread" timestamp="1452897473" author="@sandroad"]And, there is no need to disconnect the Andersen when backing. The hitch smoothly and easily adjusts to angles when backing; no bending anywhere. [/quote][font size="3"]Sorry for the confusion. I momentarily forgot he was using the Anderson and was thinking the friction type. I guess age is catching up with me[/font] O_o