Last year we had quite a thread on this topic, and since I just finished winterizing our 16TBS, I thought I would start a thread for this year and share my experiences and give others a chance to share theirs.
The following describes a drain strategy for my 16TBS which will be fairly generic to all CL models. It is pretty much similar to what I did last year with one significant exception. Others can comment on an antifreeze flush strategy.
There are three drain valves on the side of the trailer: cold, hot and the fresh water tank drain. Open them all up. I did this at the conclusion of our last camp out this morning and left them open when I drove the 100 miles back to where we keep the trailer to let road sloshing get all of the water that is going to get out. Be sure and open the water heater cross connect valve (If you have one) to let that leg of water drain out. Then close it. Some have suggested that it is better to remove the plug on the outside of the water heater to drain it, but my experience of last year indicates that opening the hot water drain valve was sufficient.
Then disconnect the discharge to the water pump temporarily and pull off the strainer cap on the suction. Dump any water in the cap. Then run the pump for a few seconds to force out any water inside. Open all valves- sink, lavatory, push the toilet flush valve and the shower head momentarily to let any water drain down. I forgot to do this for the outside shower, but I did the same last winter so I am sure that its tubing is flexible enough to withstand freezing. FWIW don't let anybody tell you that the PEX tubing used for water plumbing on the CL won't be harmed by freezing. I know better. So after letting everything drain down, reconnect the pump strainer and the discharge tubing.
Now for this year's change in approach. I learned from last year that the toilet flush valve retains a body full of water even when you disconnect the inlet tubing. Apparently there is a check valve that won't let it drain back and last year it froze and broke. So this year I pulled it out of the toilet body- there are two tabs that you have to depress, and disconnected the supply and discharge tubing to it. Sure enough when I pushed the flush button on it a few table spoons of water came out when I blew through the valve with the button depressed. But to be 100% sure I poured a few tablespoons of RV antifreeze in the discharge nozzle and hooked it all back up. Next year we will see if this solved the problem. I am 99.9% sure, but..., stay tuned
The final thing is to pour a cup of RV antifreeze in each drain: sink, lavatory, shower and toilet. The first two definitely have p-traps and need to be filled with antifreeze to protect them.
All in all, it took me less time to do all of the above than to type this message.
The beauty of the drain strategy is that next year, there is almost nothing to do. Just fill the water tanks, turn the pump on and blow the air pockets out of the plumbing.
David
This all sounds great except I didn't see anything in here about blowing out the lines. I'd be worried about lines that bend away from the low point drain or have dips in them. The water in those will not make it out through gravity alone.
[quote source="/post/15911/thread" timestamp="1444329698" author="@david"]The beauty of the drain strategy is that next year, there is almost nothing to do. Just fill the water tanks, turn the pump on and blow the air pockets out of the plumbing.
[/quote]Except sanitize, right? ::)
Last year's experience- no damage except to the flush valve and I didn't blow the lines clear then, leads me to believe that you don't have to get out ALL of the water. Leaving water in a low spot in the line is ok- there is enough room for the frozen water to expand. So I did not blow out the lines this time either.
Having said that, a low spot in our boat dock's PEX water line froze and split the PEX a few years ago. But the difference was that low spot was dozens of feet, maybe a 100' long. Any low spot in an RV is only a few feet and should be able to expand ok.
Yes, I forgot to add that I will add a cupful of bleach to the first fill next season, pump it through all of the lines, let it sit for a few hours, then dump it and fill with fresh water.
David
I like your procedure, David, and quite right about the easy recommission in spring.
I do think you should pull the plug at the water heater because it allows you to examine the anode and see if it needs to be replaced.
I also think blowing air through is a good way to force the water out of valves and the pump. We have a leak on our outside shower - between the faucet valves and the quick-connect. It only leaks when the taps are open. I believe the dealer didn't blow air through this fixture and the water between the valves and the QC froze and popped a seal or something. Slow leak, but constant.
Spot on about the anti-freeze in the traps.
This whole procedure has the added benefit of only using a few cups of anti-freeze instead of gallons. Bravo !
Thanks for the updated write up. I just did our 16TBS with almost exactly the same procedure. I have an air compressor so it's easy to blow out the lines and I did that. Quite a bit of water came out of the toilet with the air. I used slightly more antifreeze than you and drained maybe a half cup through both drain gate valves to make sure the didn't freeze. I left about a half cup in the toilet.
Nice review, does anyone suck antifreeze up into their pump, I have the 13 RDB where the pump is located in a sealed compartment under the sofa bed, I blew the air out with a compressor last year, but was thinking maybe to add rv antifreeze into the pump this year. Also thanks to David for further explaining the toilet check valve again. I disconnected and drained the toilet line, but wasn't aware of the water retention issue in there...I'm also x2 with pinstriper with removing the hot water heater's anode and looking inside before hibernation...
I do run anti-freeze through all the lines by connecting a hose directly to the pump. While blowing out the lines can work I sleep better knowing that I have antifreeze everywhere. With the water heater bypass set up I use about a gallon and a half of antifreeze in my 13QBB that includes running antifreeze through everything including the outside shower all the way down to the low point drains. I also remove the water heater anode. On a side note I was surprised how much of it was gone after the the first year.
With my Dad owning mobile home parks and lot renters paying us to winterize their trailers when they went to FL for the winters we always used antifreeze in the lines. I still do out of habit and never had any damage yet. Back then there were rubber valve seals that could dry out if left dry. Not sure if that is the case today but guess I'll never find out. A couple gallons of antifreeze per year is the norm for me.
That pretty pink color is comforting to me.
[quote source="/post/15971/thread" timestamp="1444599906" author="@scout"]Nice review, does anyone suck antifreeze up into their pump, I have the 13 RDB where the pump is located in a sealed compartment under the sofa bed, I blew the air out with a compressor last year, but was thinking maybe to add rv antifreeze into the pump this year. Also thanks to David for further explaining the toilet check valve again. I disconnected and drained the toilet line, but wasn't aware of the water retention issue in there...I'm also x2 with pinstriper with removing the hot water heater's anode and looking inside before hibernation...
[/quote]I have a 13QBB, and the pump is also located inside the sofa bed compartment. To winterize, I removed (with some moderate effort to pull it off the fitting) the hose from the "out" nipple on the fresh water tank under the trailer, and took that end of the hose and stuck it in antifreeze jug. I then ran the water pump to pressurize the system, and opened the faucets and valves to run the antifreeze through the system. I did have to elevate the antifreeze jug about 6" with some bricks so that the hose would go far enough into the jug. I also had to re-fill the jug with antifreeze from a second container once it sucked up about 1/2 a gallon, since the hose was not long enough to reach the bottom of the container. After reconnecting the hose fitting, I ran poured some antifreeze through the fresh water inlets to add a little antifreeze to the fresh water tank.
This is my first time winterizing a camper, and I did it at the storage lot where I keep it, so I had to improvise a bit when I realized the pump was not easily accessible with the tools I had with me...hopefully it works :)
Graham
Man, that's doing things the hard way, and now you gotta flush that crap out of your fresh tank.
[quote source="/post/15987/thread" timestamp="1444661335" author="@pinstriper"]Man, that's doing things the hard way, and now you gotta flush that crap out of your fresh tank.
[/quote]Yes, that is true! Although in my case the only thing the fresh water is used for is flushing the toilet. So that antifreeze crap is actually being use for flushing other...crap. ;-|
I followed the recommendation of a friend and used the pink stuff in all the lines and traps, but NOT in the fresh water tank which I simply drained.
Logic was its very hard to get all the pink stuff out of the fresh water tank.
Very hard freezes last winter before we moved Campy to FL, and it seemed to work.
I was told that you could use one of those little pumps you attach to your drill, bought at Home Depot, and just pump the pink stuff into the city water inlet. Does that sound realistic, or do I have to install that Camco winterization kit??
[quote timestamp="1444687675" source="/post/16001/thread" author="@gleamb"]I was told that you could use one of those little pumps you attach to your drill, bought at Home Depot, and just pump the pink stuff into the city water inlet. Does that sound realistic, or do I have to install that Camco winterization kit??[/quote]I am skeptical. In the first place, how much pressure does it put out ? In the second place, how are you gonna manage the drill outside and the taps inside ?
Definitely a McGuyver move, though. If it works.
My design on winterizing to protect in our -20o plus winter temps is:
- Open one spigot and the low point drains then close them when water stops draining.
- Pull the anode out of the water heater and leave it out all winter. (good time to inspect it)
- switch the water heater bypass open and close the inlet and outlet valves.
- Pour a few gallons of RV anti freeze into the tank and use the pump to generate pressure
- Run the both hot and cold spigots, both hot and cold shower and flush the toilet until the Red colored Antifreeze is visible.
- Drain the excess Antifreeze in the supply tank back into gallon jug(s) for next year.
This fills all those areas with antifreeze that you all indicate water can collect and freeze.
Been winterizing trailers for years in this fashion and never had a problem.
How do you rinse out the tank after you drain the excess??
Good timing on this thread. I've got a few months yet to get this done, but this is the info I need to get the job done..
[div][font face="comic sans ms" size="3"]I just purchased a new unit and have never done this before so the info you have provided is great. I noticed in the Livin' Lite manual that they do not recommend an alcohol based antifreeze in the ABS P-Traps. Do you use something else for the P-Traps as the pink stuff is ethanol?
Cheers
Mike
[/font][/div]
The pink stuff is not alcohol. It is propylene glycol, the same stuff you drink for colonoscopy prep -;).
David
[font size="3" face="comic sans ms"]I did a little more research and it turns out "pink" comes in three different flavours.
1. Propylene Glycol Base
2. Propylene Glycol / Ethanol Base
3. Ethanol Base
My local store up here in the Great White North sells #3. I'm now searching for the Propylene Glycol now. Here's a link that discusses all three
http://mainecamperdealer.com/what-you-need-to-know-about-rv-anti-freeze/
Also, watch out for recycled fluids as they may contain some nasty ingredients. Here are 3 brands that are virgin and recommended.
1. Dow Corning - Dow Frost
2. Walmart - SuperTech RV
3. Walmart - Marine Antifreeze
4. Camco - Easy Going-50
Mike
[/font]
[quote source="/post/16395/thread" author="@mrt" timestamp="1446412338"][font size="3" face="comic sans ms"]I did a little more research and it turns out "pink" comes in three different flavours.
1. Propylene Glycol Base
2. Propylene Glycol / Ethanol Base
3. Ethanol Base
My local store up here in the Great White North sells #3. I'm now searching for the Propylene Glycol now. Here's a link that discusses all three
http://mainecamperdealer.com/what-you-need-to-know-about-rv-anti-freeze/
Also, watch out for recycled fluids as they may contain some nasty ingredients. Here are 3 brands that are virgin and recommended.
1. Dow Corning - Dow Frost
2. Walmart - SuperTech RV
3. Walmart - Marine Antifreeze
4. Camco - Easy Going-50
Mike
[/font][/quote][font size="3"]Very good info. Didn't know all that. Thank you, Mike.[/font]
[quote timestamp="1444687675" source="/post/16001/thread" author="@gleamb"]I was told that you could use one of those little pumps you attach to your drill, bought at Home Depot, and just pump the pink stuff into the city water inlet. Does that sound realistic, or do I have to install that Camco winterization kit??[/quote]I installed the Camco winterization kit and ran antifreeze through all the line, did that last year too. Was easier this year because the kit was installed already!
I've decided to drain everything, blow the lines, and just antifreeze the traps. I bought a Camco air adaptor for the job. Couple of questions:
What's a good pressure to use?
Will this get the water out of the toilet valve David mentioned?
How about the water pump?
[quote timestamp="1448467052" source="/post/16782/thread" author="@surfsup"]I've decided to drain everything, blow the lines, and just antifreeze the traps. I bought a Camco air adaptor for the job. Couple of questions:
What's a good pressure to use?
Will this get the water out of the toilet valve David mentioned?
How about the water pump?
[/quote]The pressure should be 40-50 psi (same as it would be for water). As long as you open the toilet valve when there's air flowing then you should be good to go. I normally run the water pump dry after draining the fresh tank to make sure the surrounding lines are empty. You'll also need to dump the little strainer basket since there always seems to be water in there.
thanks surfsup & techie, I had the same question...this forum sure eases the head scratching! (for some of us)
[quote source="/post/16783/thread" timestamp="1448467889" author="@tinkeringtechie"]The pressure should be 40-50 psi (same as it would be for water). As long as you open the toilet valve when there's air flowing then you should be good to go. I normally run the water pump dry after draining the fresh tank to make sure the surrounding lines are empty. You'll also need to dump the little strainer basket since there always seems to be water in there.[/quote][font size="3"]FYI for those concerned about bursting pipes: The Camco regulators are set at 40-50 psi. The Valterra high flow regulator is set at 50-55 psi. The OEM pump shuts off at 55 psi. Techie's 40-50 psi recommendation seems pretty good. [/font]
As noted in other threads, it's both pressure and volume when using air for blowing out the water lines. The 40-50 psi is fine, but it takes a while before the water stops spurting from the most distant valves/faucets when using air. Some of the smaller air tanks won't have enough air volume to get all the water out. My 20 gallon shop compressor is probably overkill, but my little portable 2 gallon compressor isn't enough.
My portable 3 gallon compressor seems to do a pretty good job. It has two pressure settings, so I set the tank pressure to the max 150 PSI, and the tool pressure to 50 PSI. I also shoot each faucet/valve multiple times, letting the pressure fully recover between each. It helps a lot to have two people when you are doing this, one outside with the air hose, and one inside to open/close each valve.
Thanks for the feedback and guidance. Hey Tinkeringtechie, is the strainer basket part of the water pump? Not familiar with that..
Quote from: @billmoore" source="/post/16788/thread" timestamp="1448472099
..It helps a lot to have two people when you are doing this, one outside with the air hose, and one inside to open/close each valve.
I bought a male air connection that threads right onto the city water connection, so I should be able to do this job alone?
[quote source="/post/16838/thread" timestamp="1448802926" author="@surfsup"]Thanks for the feedback and guidance. Hey Tinkeringtechie, is the strainer basket part of the water pump? Not familiar with that.. [/quote]Yet the strainer is in line right next to the pump but separate. Just unscrew the clear bowl and dump it out.
[quote source="/post/16840/thread" timestamp="1448803167" author="@surfsup"]
[quote source="/post/16788/thread" timestamp="1448472099" author="@billmoore"]..It helps a lot to have two people when you are doing this, one outside with the air hose, and one inside to open/close each valve.[/quote]I bought a male air connection that threads right onto the city water connection, so I should be able to do this job alone?
[/quote]I do it solo, using either the anti-freeze or air pressure method.
For the air pressure method, after draining the hot water heater by depressurizing the water system and pulling the hot water heater plug, I set my compressor to 40-50psi, hook it up via the city water connection with the adapter, then I go inside and open up each faucet, the toilet, the low point drains, and the outside shower (one at a time). I hit each one a few times, just to make sure.
Then (because I'm paranoid, and it's -20f here in winter) this year I bypassed the hot water heater and pump some anti-freeze through the plumbing anyway.
By doing both anti-freeze and air pressure methods, I'm clearly in overkill mode. One would be enough. :)
--Mike
Thanks, ammobob..
[quote source="/post/16840/thread" timestamp="1448803167" author="@surfsup"]
[quote source="/post/16788/thread" timestamp="1448472099" author="@billmoore"]..It helps a lot to have two people when you are doing this, one outside with the air hose, and one inside to open/close each valve.[/quote]I bought a male air connection that threads right onto the city water connection, so I should be able to do this job alone?
[/quote]Yes you should be able to do it alone. In fact, after my experience this year with needing two people, I ordered one of these for next year:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B002XL2IEA
With that, I can just hook up my quick connect hose to the adapter and won't need another set of hands...
Thanks Mike and billmoore, good input for us RV noobs!
billmoore, yep, that's the same fitting I bought for the job this year..
Winterize complete.
Just want to mention that while I had the compressor and air fitting going, I attached it to my black tank rinse and blew all the water out of that line too. Also, pulled up my stabilizers and tilted my trailer down in the front as far as it would go and got an extra gallon or three of water out of my fresh tank. I.e., the drain valve on mine is on the front, ymmv?
I hope everyone has a blessed Christmas and an awesome winter!
Winter seems to be over here so I hooked the camper up to water yesterday. Found a leak with my outside shower faucets. The leak was inside the water heater compartment area - lots of water - once again thankful for my metal floor. They must have had a little water in them, froze, expanded and cracked. I obviously overlooked draining them!?!? Anyway, ordered a new set on Amazon, $30. Everything else seems to be good, so far?!
Second year in a row my dealer missed the outside shower in their winterizing. Last year all I had was a drip on the outside, and only when the faucet was on and the sprayer closed (water pressure between the valve and the hose fitting.
This year ? Cracked on the inside. we had to abort our shakedown cruise due to water gushing from the trailer side of the faucet assembly.
Pulled it over to the dealer next morning, tech intercepted me before I could go in to check-in, asked me what I needed and to show him. He went in, grabbed a new faucet and pulled the panel under the fridge and replaced it on the spot, no charge. The only thing I needed to go inside for was to use the bathroom. He had me pull it around back and hooked it up to water to verify no leaks. Great service and the proper way to handle such an episode.
And yeah, this was ABOVE the aluminum floor, and there is a big enough gap that all the water flowed down and out instead of sloshing around into the bathroom or the "foyer" by the front door. SOOOOOoooooo glad for aluminum construction.
This is why you do your first trip of the year 20 minutes away from home.
Good for you! Yep, first camp trip is my side yard. Next one will be within an hour to shake down the rolling gear. We're planning another cross country trip this summer. NC-WA-NC.
I did my own winterizing, so I'll pay for the new faucets. I definitely won't do that again!!
replaced and tested.. all is good!