So I had a couple of 12v electrical issues this past weekend.
First issue (Friday night) was fixed easy enough. A simple blown fuse. Found it odd that it is only a 15 amp fuse but without it, no power to the other 12v outlets. Didn't take a chance, so replaced the blown fuse with another 15 amp fuse. Everything worked fine after that.
Sunday morning I woke up and was alerted by my daughter that her iPad didn't charge. My wife also noticed that her Samsung smart phone didn't charge either. Both were plugged into the USB ports. I had charged my phone in the same USB ports earlier without issue, but double checked and the ports were now not working. Changed the fuse and still nothing.
Reading online, several things may have caused the problem:
1. Amp draw from iPad is too high;
2. Amp draw from Samsung smart phone (on Samsung USB charger) is too high;
3. Carelessness of my lovely family may have shorted the USB port by having a live USB cable touch the aluminium trailer;
4. Combined amp draw may have blown the USB port; and/or,
5. All of the above?
Is there a "reset" on the USB port (perhaps a GFI type)? Could there be other causes?
We had issues with our ports. It seemed that sometimes they worked and sometimes not. Had them replaced under warrantee a month ago.
My USB ports died to I replace with a power port, used OEM parts
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B003VAT1LA?psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=oh_aui_detailpage_o00_s00
I have found that Livin Lite uses boat parts
Had the same blown fuse this weekend. It is the bottom 15 amp fuse. When I replace it, a fan turns on. I assume that it is the cooling fan for the converter. Without it, I have no 12v power when not connected to shore power.
When I get home, I connect to 110v to recharge the battery. Before leaving, I disconnect.
Am I perhaps doing something incorrectly? I find it odd that it is only 15amp, since without it, there is no power. I also find it odd that it has blown twice.
[font size="3"]So as I understand when you are connected to shore power you have full 12 operation even without the 15A fuse?
When on shore power you can charge the battery with or without the 15A fuse?
When not connected to shore power you only have 12 operation when the 15A fuse is good? Without the fuse you get no 12V operation?
The fan coming on when you replace the fuse bothers me. The converter fan should be powered internally from the converter; not run through the fuse panel.
I don't have a QS so can't speak from experience. Perhaps someone with a QS will jump in.
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That appears to be correct....................or I haven't run the battery down yet. I only use it for lights and to charge my phone.
[font size="3"]rob,
Do you know what model converter you have? On LL's website there is some indication the QSs use a WFCO 8712 or 8725converter or maybe an Elixer converter. How many fuse slots, used or unused, do you have? The WFCO documentation shows 5 fuses, the bottom one being the reverse protection fuse. How do you know the fuse in question should be 15A? Is it marked on the converter?
If you have a voltmeter you can verify the battery is being charged. It will read greater than 13 volts at the battery if it is being charged when on shore power.
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It is a WF-8725-P converter
[a href="http://s94.photobucket.com/user/rwgill/media/12v%20circuit.jpg.html"]
(http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l109/rwgill/12v%20circuit.jpg)I just plugged into shore power. The fuse blew. Changed it and it blew again. Tried again and it blew just as the fan was starting up. It never blows on 12v only. Looking at the electrician's handwriting, one of the fuses should be 75 amps?
That fuse is 7.5 amps, not 75 amps. Here are some additional thoughts on your problem:
The USB outlet has an internal circuit that converts the 12v DC supplied from the trailer's battery and/or converter through fuse #3, to the 5V DC that the USB spec calls for. If that circuitry is bad, it could either cause no power output at the USB outlet, or it could be a dead short. In the latter case I would expect it to blow fuse #3.
But you have a different problem. Fuse #4 is blowing. My guess is that fuse supplies power to the internal cooling fan for the converter. This may be caused by a wiring error to the internal fan or an internal circuit failure, but in either case it probably will require replacing the converter to fix it.
David
[font size="3"]I agree with David. The USB is a separate problem. When on shore power with the fuse removed do all other 12V things work? [/font][font size="3"]Have you verified the battery is charging by measuring greater than 13V at the battery when on shore power and the fuse is removed? I'm puzzled by the fan sound. [/font][font size="3"]Do you have a propane furnace? I don't know why the converter internal fan would be fed through an external fuse. If the above checks are good I'll join David in the faulty converter club.
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There appears to be no charge. I remain at 12.4 v.
Reading the manual, there is a cooling fan. Its speed is dictated by usage.
While on shore power, all power sources work (less USB), with or without fuse.
When on battery only, no fuse in #4, no power. With fuse, everything works. I plug into shore power, fuse blows.
It worked fine my first trip out. I can charge the battery in the garage. Trailer is still under warranty.
[quote source="/post/13726/thread" timestamp="1438044842" author="@rob"]There appears to be no charge. I remain at 12.4 v.
[font color="e61944"][font size="3"]I assume this is measured at the battery [font color="e61944"]on shore power with the fuse removed?[/font][/font][/font]
Reading the manual, there is a cooling fan. Its speed is dictated by usage.
[font color="e61944"][font size="3"]That's correct. I was just wondering if you also had a furnace.[/font][/font]
While on shore power, all power sources work (less USB), with or without fuse.
When on battery only, no fuse in #4, no power. With fuse, everything works. I plug into shore power, fuse blows.
It worked fine my first trip out. I can charge the battery in the garage. Trailer is still under warranty.
[font color="e61944"][font size="3"][font color="e61944"]It almost seems the #4 is wired or shorted back to the battery. [/font]That would cause it to blow rather quickly. The converter may sense the high current and try to start the fan.
It would be worth verifying again the battery is not reversed. [font color="e61944"]When not on shore power the lights don't care about polarity., [font color="e61944"]t[/font]he fan may or may not, but the USB [font color="e61944"]definitely[/font] will. Check this by disconnecting the battery, connect to shore power and insert[font color="e61944"] fuse[font color="e61944"] 4. If fuse 4 holds measure [font color="e61944"]at the disconnected battery cables and verify they are the correct polarity as you [font color="e61944"]would connect to the battery. The battery reversal fuses should catch this, but who knows.
[font color="e61944"]If everything worked fine your first trip, including charging the battery[/font], [font color="e61944"]and the battery is not reversed, I'd say bad converter.[/font]
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Problem solved (at least for now).
Spoke with an electrician friend who repairs RVs from time to time. He had come across similar problems before. He stated that often a component manufacture suggests X, but final assemblers change it to Y and dealers adjust to Z. He suggested that I try a 20 amp fuse. If that blew, go with a 25 amp. If that blew, we had a serious issue.
I bought some more 15 amp, some 20, 25 and 30 amp fuses. At 20 amps, fan started and continue to run. I tested the voltage and read 13.7v at battery. Two hours later and the fan stopped. Battery reads 13.7v. Plugged in one light and it worked, with the fan coming on low.
My friend will stop by on the weekend to properly test amperage. He has a feeling that the fan is drawing 16+ amps at start up.
I would be shocked if that fan drew 16 amps, even for a few milliseconds at startup. Ask your friend to also check the wire gauge in that circuit. You will need 20 gauge or bigger to be protected by a 20 amp fuse.
David
[font size="3"]Rob and David,
I'm now thinking the trailer is miswired. [/font][font size="3"]I think what's happened is the converter DC output is connected to the bus via F4 instead of the 30A fuse.[/font][font size="3"] This would account for the presence or lack of function as Rob describes. I think the battery charging current, particularly when partially discharged, is between 15 and 20 Amps and that's why it now appears to be working. [/font][font size="3"]Somewhere else on this forum someone mentioned a 15A fuse that had to be in place to get 12V. I didn't pay much attention because it was a QS and I thought that probably was the reverse protection fuse. Now, after following this thread, the fog is clearing. That wiring error may be present in some/all of the QSs from the factory.
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The DC output of the converter should be directly connected to the DC bus through the 30A fuse. Fuses F1-F4 and the positive of the battery should also be directly connected to the DC bus. This allows the battery to power the bus and all 12V circuits. The converter output directly powers the bus providing 12V on shore power and battery charging. The 30A fuse only protects the converter circuitry. All 12V accessories remain connected to the battery even [/font][font size="3"]if the battery had been reversed at one time and [/font][font size="3"]the 30A fuse is gone. This may be a clue to the USB problem too.
If I'm correct it's easily corrected. Rob's friend with RV electrical experience should be able to fix it with the WFCO info available on line. I started to draw all this out, but ran out of explicit knowledge and patience. I'll try again if needed.
EDIT: See later post for diagram.
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[font size="3"]Here's the drawing. Black is what I think should be. [font color="e61948"]Red is what I think is happening[/font], plus or minus the exact location of the 30A fuse. Not sure about that. Essentially F4 has been put in series between the 12V system, including the battery, and the converter. It must support charging and all 12V items. When F4 is blown you get no 12V from the converter and no charging. F4 should have nothing to do with the converter.
[attachment id="951" thumbnail="1"]
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I think you are right Charlie. I had this issue in the back of my mind when I criticized the OP's 20 amp fuse kludge. Should have spent more time thinking than criticizing, a regular failing of mine ;-).
David
[font size="3"]David,
No issue. Two brains are better than one and often produce 3+ times the solutions. Thanks for your help.
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My buddy did come over last night. Unfortunately I packed the camper up due to the severe weather warning that covered most of Ontario last night.
Based solely upon by description of the problem, he believes the camper is wired as follows:
http://farm1.staticflickr.com/430/19635141703_7ae4842591_b.jpg
Pretty much what Charlie described.
Rob I have this exact problem with my trailer! What did you end up doing to fix the problem?
O
20amp fuse in #4 appears to be working.
I am having the same problem. Should the wiring be corrected or is replacing fuse #4 a safe band aid? Thanks...
Quote from: @cowfly" timestamp="1440423858" source="/post/14505/threadI am having the same problem. Should the wiring be corrected or is replacing fuse #4 a safe band aid? Thanks...
[font size="3"]IMO, as an engineer, the wiring should be corrected. The 20A fuse in #4 seems to work as a bandaid, but I don't know what size wire is there and what other problems may arise. If you're electrically handy it should be no problem to fix. If you're not, look for someone who is. [/font]
I'm pretty handy (insert joke here), so I'll look into this a bit more. Thanks for the trouble shooting...
Ok! So reading through this and hearing that more than a couple people have had this problem. Based on y'alls experience and opinions, is this a design flaw that needs to be brought before Livin Lite production? Or is it something else?
Sorry for my ignorance, just want to make sure that it's getting fixed in future units (if thats the fix!)
Quote from: @christianm" source="/post/14513/thread" timestamp="1440432548Ok! So reading through this and hearing that more than a couple people have had this problem. Based on y'alls experience and opinions, is this a design flaw that needs to be brought before Livin Lite production? Or is it something else?
Sorry for my ignorance, just want to make sure that it's getting fixed in future units (if thats the fix!)
[font size="3"]Thanks for your attention on this, Christian. This is exactly what this forum should be doing. From what I've seen this is a mistake occurring at assembly. The converter is properly designed. Either the LL manufacturing instruction is wrong, not specific enough, or not being interpreted correctly. Some quick attention from the production folks, with Engineering consultation, should solve the problem. We would also be interested in the Factory's corrective action so current users can upgrade their units.
Thanks again. This will work. [/font]
I have decided that I will have my friend look at it properly in a couple of weeks, when I prep the trailer for storage.
The 20 amp fuse in #4 is working. I have charged the battery several times, without issue.
WRT the USB ports, they are still not working. I am not overly concerned.
[quote source="/post/14507/thread" timestamp="1440425888" author="@charliem"][quote source="/post/14505/thread" timestamp="1440423858" author="@cowfly"]I am having the same problem. Should the wiring be corrected or is replacing fuse #4 a safe band aid? Thanks...[/quote][font size="3"]IMO, as an engineer, the wiring should be corrected. The 20A fuse in #4 seems to work as a bandaid, but I don't know what size wire is there and what other problems may arise. If you're electrically handy it should be no problem to fix. If you're not, look for someone who is. [/font]
[/quote]The three loaded circuits are good to 25A each and the gauge supports the claim... There is only one battery output/charging circuit. The 30A reverse circuit is down line of the charge circuit. There is no method to remove the hot battery bus when you're plugged in... From my reading but the manual sucks. I see no way around the 25A max battery draw without shore power for all outlets without removing the converter box from the circuit. It's like the design was one-way only providing for charging.
[font size="3"]Not sure what you're saying. It's good the branch circuits can handle 25A. I'm just not sure what size wire is used in the camper itself. None of the 4 branch fuses should be directly in series with the battery. I think the battery should connect directly to the bus. The 30A fuse should be between the bus and the converter output, protecting only the converter from battery reversal. The four branch fuses should be connected between the bus and the load circuits. The 4 LED blown fuse indicators should monitor only the load circuits. See the diagram in my July 29 post. [/font]
So you're saying there is no direct connection available to the bus? Seems strange. The reverse protection 30A fuses would never blow because the 15 or 20 would go first. The WFCO in my Rpod and the PP in my 21RBS are built and wired correctly
Update :
So, after taking the thread before a couple of people over the past few days, we are taking it before one of our electrical engineers to let him know about the issue. That way, he can be on watch and put protocols in place to prevent it happening on units in the future. So, thank you current owners, for helping the next generation of owners by getting this problem taken care of sooner instead of later.
I unfortunately don't have any news or info in regards to those of you who are currently getting this issue fixed (because that is wayyyy outside of my wheelhouse ;-)...but know that we heard your voices and are becoming a better company because of it! Should I get any more information- you guys will know immediately!
[p]Maybe these photos will help with the troubleshooting. Notice the color of the wires going to the fuse board in the second photo and the diagram in the last photo...[/p][p]
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[img style="max-width:100%;" style="" src="https://scontent-ord1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpt1/v/t1.0-9/12004130_1044371008929222_1514537832927158839_n.jpg?efg=eyJpIjoidCJ9&oh=4846614b714e7ed3f7e85ff1d9e4fe41&oe=56605DC0"]
[img style="max-width:100%;" style="" src="https://scontent-ord1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpf1/v/t1.0-9/11935079_1044371022262554_4454619782359925541_n.jpg?efg=eyJpIjoidCJ9&oh=2fe6b3429a42e19d137485e75e019a8f&oe=565CF749"]
[img style="" style="max-width:100%;" src="https://scontent-ord1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xaf1/v/t1.0-0/11998807_1044371072262549_5046621658699395607_n.jpg?efg=eyJpIjoidCJ9&oh=5c8596dd21e4b4457a9af572398d1a36&oe=56A9D28E"]
[img style="" style="max-width:100%;" src="https://fbcdn-photos-e-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xfl1/v/t1.0-0/11953238_1044371042262552_114571223221823006_n.jpg?efg=eyJpIjoidCJ9&oh=4a149065d4bbd290c9dbdf0f7863f0d9&oe=5670ADBB&__gda__=1450590649_b4c6e5d74818381dbc6d16e9299ba580"]
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[font size="3"]OK. I agree it's wired per the printed diagram so the factory is following instructions. However, there is a much better way to hook it up. The positive battery terminal should be connected to one side of the 30A fuse, probably the right side, which is the DC bus. As per the diagram the 30A fuse will never blow because the slot four 15A fuse will blow first. The 30A fuse should protect the converter itself, which I believe is the wire connected to the VCC terminal. [/font][font size="3"]The larger WFCOs got it right; I'm surprised this one didn't.
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Per the diagram the 15A slot 4 fuse will limit the charging current, thereby negating the 25A converter rating. This probably will not be noticed until an almost dead battery is connected and shore power applied. So as it's built and installed it looks like slot 4 could take a 25A fuse. The 30A fuse is still superfluous, but the setup will work and support the rated 25A charging current.
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[quote source="/post/12958/thread" timestamp="1436145113" author="@rob"]
Sunday morning I woke up and was alerted by my daughter that her iPad didn't charge. My wife also noticed that her Samsung smart phone didn't charge either. Both were plugged into the USB ports. I had charged my phone in the same USB ports earlier without issue, but double checked and the ports were now not working. Changed the fuse and still nothing.
Reading online, several things may have caused the problem:
1. Amp draw from iPad is too high;
2. Amp draw from Samsung smart phone (on Samsung USB charger) is too high;
3. Carelessness of my lovely family may have shorted the USB port by having a live USB cable touch the aluminium trailer;
4. Combined amp draw may have blown the USB port; and/or,
5. All of the above?
[/quote]
I have never really paid attention to the iPad's USB cable until today.
(http://image.made-in-china.com/4f0j00AMRartPFgqcI/Lightning-to-USB-Cable-for-iPhone-5-iPad-Mini-iPod-Touch-5-etc-SNY5601-.jpg)