My wife and I are long time campers, backpackers, tent campers, pop up owners, back to tent camping and now we bought an 2014 quicksilver 8.0, 3 weeks ago. Love the concept but we are having problems with our unit and our dealer has told us we must contact Livin Lite for resolution. The camper was a "show piece" leftover, kept inside and used as a demo unit for trade shows.
We followed the instructions and conditioned the bimini tent top 5 different times over 2 days. But the seams still leak. The Velcro strips are supposed to be one continuous strip on each side of each bed. Ours are in many sections and come off every time we try to close up the unit. the glue peels off the aluminum.
There are several other small issues that are nagging for an expensive unit that has never been used in weather. We are handy (we are campers after all) and any suggestion would be welcome.
Thanks is advance.
They sold this to you as new, or used ? It doesn't sound like your dealer is very helpful. Where are they ?
We are still in negotiations. It was sold as "new" but they admitted it was taken to "some" shows. We are in PA, not too many Livin Lite dealers in PA. I am not bad mouthing anyone yet, until we resolve these issues or not. These pop ups are expensive and we paid full asking price. I have my own thoughts on what happened to this unit to make it "not normal", but I will refrain from voicing them at the moment. The phone number we were given was to a mid-west RV dealer called Crossroads RV. We were told they are Livin Lite. We will find out today.
[p]Well, was it new or not? Was there a certificate of origin?
I think you are being too kind to this mystery dealer. He has already sent you apackin' with no recourse other than call some other dealer that may or may not take care of you for months as there is nothing in it for them... and if things are modified from OEM, like you imply above, and sold NEW then you sir need to take the gloves off.[/p][p]
[/p][p]Don't negotiate too long. Do it in writing. Document with pictures. CC an imaginary but available attorney in every correspondence.[/p][p]
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Sigh .... I have many advisers, legal and other; they would tell me to try to settle it myself. I have a lot of paperwork that came with the camper, I don't know if a "certificate of origin" is among them, but I will check tonight. We have begun to document everything, photos and correspondences. Yes, I agree, the negotiations are dragging. We bought this to have fun, now it's become a red herring. It's frustrating to say the least.
[p]Notice I did not say to hire an attorney. Just the scent of one usually gets things moving. The CofO is the most important piece of paperwork you should have received for the trailer to be classified as N-E-W. It disappears after registration, where we are, never to be seen again.
If you did not get one then it is not new. That makes a huge difference in this context...used is a different ball game. From a warranty standpoint, again, especially if mods were done to the affected area.[/p][p]
[/p][p]A legal advisor that tells you to just deal with it. A dealer that tells you to just deal with it. Hey, Brother, things are wrong around you. Best of luck, seriously.[/p]
This is good advice, I will check my paperwork. I am pretty sure we received this "CofO" but I can't be certain. We have been busy reading all the warranty papers and talking about what we are going to do about this problem. I will let you know, if it's any help.
My legal team is expensive and they would rather I try all other avenues of effort before they go in for blood, this is a cost effectiveness issue more than them being lazy. Trust me, if I have to pull out the big guns I will do so without remorse.
[quote timestamp="1434474821" source="/post/12384/thread" author="@electron"]My legal team is expensive and they would rather I try all other avenues of effort before they go in for blood, this is a cost effectiveness issue more than them being lazy. Trust me, if I have to pull out the big guns I will do so without remorse.[/quote]Consumer protection laws in my state would allow me to bring it back for a Full Refund if the retailer acted this way to me. This for 30 days. If they refused I would challenge and most certainly win SIX TIMES the sales price as an award. I've done it once for a $200 product and conduct my business dealings with it in mind as well. Believe you me and how!
I do believe you. In PA it's 3 days, not 30. That is past now. Thanks for your input.
What's the difference between a lawyer and God? God doesn't think He's a lawyer!
What do you get when you cross the 'Godfather' with a lawyer? You get an offer you can't understand!
What are lawyers good for? They make RV salesmen look good!
How many lawyer jokes are there? Only three...the rest are true stories.
We feel your pain, Electron, and for what it is worth, we also experienced a somewhat similar scenario when purchasing our Axxess, though our objectionable discoveries PRIOR to taking delivery were wholly different than yours; our LL products are dissimilar.
Through the course of events, we did learn that in Florida (check your state), there are no 'lemon laws' applicable to RV purchases. After contacting our State Attorney's office who directed us to DMV who put us in touch with the state's local office who oversees 'mobile home' purchases and practices of all dealers, we did learn that once you sign the purchase agreement, you have no 3 days, no lemon law...no nut'n, honey, to protect you. This applies to 'new' units and even more so for 'used'. Contrary to what one would think, RVers actually have very little consumer protection or legal recourse in FL, unlike automobile buyers. Of course, you will always be able to find 'big guns' that will take up your grievance...hence the lawyer jokes above.
In the end, we decided to make lemonade out of lemons, (or in this case, out of no lemon-laws) and have since learned to enjoy our own homemade lemonade. However, we do believe and have personally proven that there is great truth to the old adage that 'the squeaky wheel gets the oil'. We actually found relief, but not in court! We did prevail after spending about three days walking the sidewalk in front of, but not on the offending retailer's property. (Note: This particular exercise of our right to peacefully protest was completely unrelated to our LL purchase). But before you don a sandwich board, endure sweltering temps, dodge beer bottles, hear jeers and enjoy cheers 8-)...FIRST raise your concerns to LL's president, Scott Tuttle, and any person who will listen and who is in authority in every department you can think of where QA, marketing, warranty and replacement issues are addressed. Do this by phone, if you cannot pay LL a personal visit. Keep visiting and/or calling until they know you on a first name basis....i.e., be that squeaky wheel! Follow up all conversations in writing; both e-mail and certified snail mail. This will be useful for filing a complaint later with the Better Business Bureau in both LL's and your dealership's locale IF it comes down to that. BTW, did your unit not come with a warranty of some sort?
Now it's your dealer's turn to hear from you afresh starting with your salesperson, their manager, and on up and out as far as is necessary, even talking with that friendly mechanic/tech fellow out back. Some of our most helpful information has come from these employees who know RVs the best, as well as their employer's overall policies/management style. Face to face is always most effective, but phone call if you must and document everything! Remember the squeaky wheel! IOHO, it is wise to resist resorting to anger or threats! Livin Lite, as well as dealers and salespeople in general are accustomed to this 'natural' response, even expecting it when things don't go smoothly. They are trained to deflect, marginalize and dismiss us as much as possible.
But don't shrink back! Instead, stand firmly on the validity of your grievance....like a patient, persistent non-threatening pit bull .....sporting lipstick, but never fangs! :-* (Thank you, Sarah P., for this analogy and thanks to my own pitbull rescue, 'Reba Mactrucktire', from whom I learn so much.)
Bottom line, if indeed your grievance is valid, and it sounds like it is, it is likely that someone will tire of your annoying, creaky, persistent whining and will act to stop it. Be ready and helpful keeping handy your own oil can!
BTW, what's the difference between a good lawyer and a bad one? A bad lawyer can tie you up in court for years...a good one can tie you up forever....ba da boom. Hope this helps! :)
I like Lawyer jokes. Funny until you really need one to stand by your side. This is a fight I didn't think I would be having. I was thinking more of kicking back in the woods with my new pop up, doing some fishing and family camping with my 5 year old grandson, now I am dealing with aggravation.
I don't know what a CofO form is in PA. My buyers agreement states clearly this is a NEW unit.
Oh, and I do enjoy lemonade.
[quote source="/post/12392/thread" timestamp="1434491123" author="@electron"]I don't know what a CofO form is in PA. My buyers agreement states clearly this is a NEW unit.
Oh, and I do enjoy lemonade.[/quote][p]Good enough, dealer states it's new in writing. Warranty in effect. The CofO is the title when new. I'd question where that is but you have enough to handle otherwise so it sounds.[/p][p]
[/p][p]Now, you have a new trailer with fudged hook and loop. LL is responsible to at least help you facilitate a repair. Or you could do like every second person here does and tackle it yourself. Curious about the other problems you have...besides the seam sealing. Have you posted for help in the QS forum for seam sealing tips?
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Ask them what they want said about the trailer and the dealership experience in the product review video you're making for youtube.
They can either make it an endorsement or a warning. Up to them. All you're doing is making a video of the paperwork and the trailer, with lots of close-up macro lens work. Ball's in their court.
A video on YouTube, I never considered that option, that is brilliant. Thanks.
I can empathize with dealer issues. I decided to just do the remedial work myself and use it as a chance to learn about the Camplite. In between the cussing, it's been fun. You probably know from your camping experiences that there is seam tape made to seal seams and I know from my experience that there is velcro made with very aggressive tape backing. So, you can likely get the seams sealed and beds velcroed yourself. If the unit was a demo, perhaps it's lived the last year set up 24/7-365, which may have stretched the seams a bit.
Crossroads RV is a RV manufacturer in Indiana. I don't know what the relation is to Livin Lite, but they are not an RV "dealer" so to speak. Let others know about the bad dealer by using on-line rating and review services.
I'm sure you'll be camping with your grandson soon, and be sure to let him out-fish you. He'll be hooked for life if he bests grandpa.
Thanks Merlin,
My grandson and I go fishing every Thursday, weather permitting. We started last year and he always out fishes me. I spend most of the time baiting the hook and taking off the fish (and taking pictures). He loves to fish with his Pop Pop and he wants me to take him camping so we can fish all night and day.
FYI, when you call Livin Lite (website phone number) you get Crossroads RV.
[quote source="/post/12415/thread" timestamp="1434507847" author="@electron"]Thanks Merlin,
My grandson and I go fishing every Thursday, weather permitting. We started last year and he always out fishes me. I spend most of the time baiting the hook and taking off the fish (and taking pictures). He loves to fish with his Pop Pop and he wants me to take him camping so we can fish all night and day.
FYI, when you call Livin Lite (website phone number) you get Crossroads RV.[/quote]Livinlite moved recently. This is SUPPOSED to be there new address and phone number:
LivinLite
201 Starcraft Drive
Topeka, IND 46571
260-593-3850
You can also contact Don Neulander, he takes care of warranty issues, via email at:
don.n@LivinLite.com
Don is pretty responsive to emails and does his best to help.
Doug
Interesting, there was reference in another thread to Crossroads being the parent company of Livin Lite. Since LL just moved to Topeka, IN and that's where Crossroads is, I wonder who's calling the shots for LL now? Maybe you'll learn more about that in your forays into warranty work.
Quote from: @sandroad" source="/post/12426/thread" timestamp="1434542350Interesting, there was reference in another thread to Crossroads being the parent company of Livin Lite. Since LL just moved to Topeka, IN and that's where Crossroads is, I wonder who's calling the shots for LL now? Maybe you'll learn more about that in your forays into warranty work.
Thor is the parent company.
[quote source="/post/12430/thread" timestamp="1434547691" author="@djsamuel"][quote source="/post/12426/thread" timestamp="1434542350" author="@sandroad"]Interesting, there was reference in another thread to Crossroads being the parent company of Livin Lite. Since LL just moved to Topeka, IN and that's where Crossroads is, I wonder who's calling the shots for LL now? Maybe you'll learn more about that in your forays into warranty work. [/quote]
Thor is the parent company.[/quote][font size="3"]Thor owns both LL and Crossroads and a bunch more. This is just the restructuring that comes with the consolidation taking place in the RV industry. It only makes sense not to make the same camper with a dozen different badges. Once there were many, then there were few, then.........
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You're right, they own a lot. Looks like LivinLite took over a Starcraft facility and Crossroads moved into the old LivinLite plant.
Here is a list of Thor companies:
http://www2.thorindustries.com/recreational-vehicles
Now I'm confused, the number on LivinLite's web site (574.862.2228) does not show up on the Crossroad's web site. However, the number given in the relocation thread on this board (260-593-3850) is the number on the Crossroads web site. I wonder if they swapped locations?
Here is the relocation thread:
http://livinlite.proboards.com/thread/1052/livinlite-relocating
[quote timestamp="1434507398" author="@electron" source="/post/12413/thread"]A video on YouTube, I never considered that option, that is brilliant. Thanks.[/quote]Yes, I thought so, myself. <ducks, running for cover>
[quote source="/post/12465/thread" timestamp="1434597052" author="@pinstriper"][quote source="/post/12413/thread" timestamp="1434507398" author="@electron"]A video on YouTube, I never considered that option, that is brilliant. Thanks.[/quote]Yes, I thought so, myself. <ducks, running for cover>
[/quote]We thought it was a good idea too... a powerfully good idea. That said, am SO thankful there's no video anywhere of me sportin' a sandwich board. :D
[quote source="/post/12468/thread" timestamp="1434605052" author="@gwbushhog"][quote source="/post/12465/thread" timestamp="1434597052" author="@pinstriper"]Yes, I thought so, myself. <ducks, running for cover>
[/quote]We thought it was a good idea too... a powerfully good idea. That said, am SO thankful there's no video anywhere of me sportin' a sandwich board. :D [/quote]As with Kilts, it all depends on what you wear under them.
Quote from: @pinstriper" source="/post/12474/thread" timestamp="1434637519[quote source="/post/12468/thread" timestamp="1434605052" author="@gwbushhog"]We thought it was a good idea too... a powerfully good idea. That said, am SO thankful there's no video anywhere of me sportin' a sandwich board. :D
As with Kilts, it all depends on what you wear under them.
[/quote]Ahhhhhh, Livin Lite, me lads and lassies! Livin Lite!
Thanks to djsamuel for the contact information.
Don has been helpful but we are still not satisfied. I will begin my YouTube video project tonight, looks like it will be a warning video to all new buyers. The big guns have been called.
[quote source="/post/12620/thread" timestamp="1435102074" author="@electron"]The big guns have been called.[/quote][p]Going for blood, eh? Treble damages are possible in PA. Provided the tent was intended to keep you dry by design. https://www.attorneygeneral.gov/uploadedFiles/MainSite/Content/Consumers/Consumer_Protection_Law.pdf
I think your lawyers will want to go for the dealer first, then they can go for LL if all else fails. Best if the dealer is motivated to go after LL. You will be made whole at the very least.
Sorry it came to this but like GW experienced, I figured as much.[/p][p]
[/p][p]Pay special attention to the alterations clause.[/p][p]
[/p][p]This is all too sickening. Your dealer should step up before he is stepped on.[/p][p]
[/p][p]As a business owner I tread very carefully upon the right side of doing the right thing. It is too expensive not to as your dealer and possibly LL will soon find out.
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