[font size="3"][font face="arial"]Here's the SeeLevel tank level monitor installed in the 21RBS.
[attachment id="952" thumbnail="1"]
The power wire is tapped onto the TV Booster supply line in the cabinet. The sensor wire is run through the floor in the cabinet (careful not to drill into the fresh tank :'(). The cable is then routed to the three tanks with generous use of zip ties.
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[font size="3"][font face="arial"]I just sprayed the SeeLevel sensor boards with 3M Professional Grade Rubberized Undercoating as recommended by the manufacturer. Available at Autozone and O'Reilly. A bit pricey and way too much for the small amount need, but it covers well and is easy to spray.
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Is this the stuff? [a href="http://www.amazon.com/3M-03584-Professional-Rubberized-Undercoating/dp/B002H9CMCQ"]http://www.amazon.com/3M-03584-Professional-Rubberized-Undercoating/dp/B002H9CMCQ[/a]
[font size="3"][font face="arial"]Yes, that's the stuff. It sprays nicely but can run if you apply it too liberally. No problem unless your hand/arm is in the drip path. You will be black for a week. Now what to do with the rest of the can?
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I'm tempted to spray it in the wheel wells or somewhere else that might need protection from debris, water, etc...
[font size="3"][font face="arial"]That would work but for very little gain. I'm thinking of making a cardboard boat and spraying It. Cheap rubber boat. :D
I just put the second coat on. I'm done.
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I just installed my Seelevel yesterday. I'm curious if we put the sensors in the same locations.
Fresh: right next to outlet, cut 4 pads off
Gray: facing dump valve, cut 4 pads off
Black: back side (curb side), cut 5 pads off
Gray and black placement was determined by the "shelves" that prevented accessing the top except on one side. Fresh water could have gone anywhere but next to the outlet seemed most meaningful. I aligned gray and black with the top of the tank and aligned fresh with the bottom.
[quote source="/post/1045/thread" timestamp="1400428858" author="@tinkeringtechie"]I just installed my Seelevel yesterday. I'm curious if we put the sensors in the same locations.
Fresh: right next to outlet, cut 4 pads off
Gray: facing dump valve, cut 4 pads off
Black: back side (curb side), cut 5 pads off
Gray and black placement was determined by the "shelves" that prevented accessing the top except on one side. Fresh water could have gone anywhere but next to the outlet seemed most meaningful. I aligned gray and black with the top of the tank and aligned fresh with the bottom.[/quote][font size="3"][font face="arial"]I think we're very close. Great minds think alike.
I placed the fresh sensor on the curb side end to shield it from road spray and aligned it so that it would read the useable water level. There are a few gallons left when the pump starts sucking air. Three sensors pads working.
The gray is similar to yours, on the street side end several inches forward on the dump pipe fitting, aligned with top of tank. Four sensor pads working.
The black sensor is on the curb side end as high as I could get it. Four sensor pads working, but I ordered the shorter sensor strip for this one. I think it was JS or JK.
It'll be interesting to see what your black sensor reports when the tank is full.
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[quote source="/post/1053/thread" timestamp="1400449141" author="@charliem"][font size="3"][font face="arial"]It'll be interesting to see what your black sensor reports when the tank is full.
[/font][/font][/quote]It will say full because I'll make it say full :D
Actually I'll be using their panel for a few months (hopefully no more) while I'm working on my custom monitor. Once I finish I'll perform a full calibration on a level surface from empty to full. That calibration will also compensate for variations in tank geometry as I will be filling the tanks at a constant rate and graphing the results. From empty to full I should have a linear line over time even though the readings may not be. I'll make adjustments to map the readings to the "true" level.
[quote source="/post/1054/thread" timestamp="1400451791" author="@tinkeringtechie"][quote source="/post/1053/thread" timestamp="1400449141" author="@charliem"][font size="3"][font face="arial"]
[/font][/font][/quote]It will say full because I'll make it say full :D
Actually I'll be using their panel for a few months (hopefully no more) while I'm working on my custom monitor. Once I finish I'll perform a full calibration on a level surface from empty to full. That calibration will also compensate for variations in tank geometry as I will be filling the tanks at a constant rate and graphing the results. From empty to full I should have a linear line over time even though the readings may not be. I'll make adjustments to map the readings to the "true" level.[/quote][font size="3"][font face="arial"]Yes, I understand you micro guys. "It's only software". However, if you run a calibration before correction I'd be interested. [/font][/font]
I just received the SeeLevel II 709 (P3) late today. I've read through this thread and [a href="http://livinlite.proboards.com/thread/226/seelevel-tank-monitor"]this thread[/a] and did get a lot of answers - especially where to locate the tank sensors. But it does appear that no one has simply retrofitted the existing wiring from the old probes as shown in this video:
[video src="https://youtu.be/Z-SyklZWlVM"][/video]
I'd like to use the same wires on my 21RBS if possible - any thoughts?
[font size="3"]It's pretty easy.
Method One: Pick a spot to mount the panel. If you want to mount it near where the OEM panel is and use the existing wiring, that's fine. The OEM panel has a plethora of wires running down to the tanks; probably 4 for each tank. The SeeLevel only needs two wires running from the panel to the tanks. Two wires total! Just pick any two wires leaving the OEM panel, label one "ground" or "black" and the other "sensors" or 'blue". Run these two wires to the three tanks in any order. My panel is mounted under the sink cabinet so I ran to the fresh, then gray, then black tanks, but it could have been any order. The order doesn't make any difference since you code each sensor as you attach it by trimming the tabs on the sensors. On each tank connect the black wire from the sensor to the wire you labeled "black". Connect the blue wires from the sensors to the wire you labeled "blue". That's it: Six connections for three tanks. Then, back at the panel, connect the black ground wires to a good ground and the red power lead to a 12 volt source. You're done.
Alternate Method: This is a little harder to understand and employs more wires, but you may want to consider it. At each tank, pick two wires connected to the four sensor array. I don't know what colors LL used, but let's say one black and one blue. Discard the other wires. At each tank connect the blue wire to the blue wire from the new sensor. At each tank connect the black wire to the black wire from the new sensor. Back at the SeeLevel panel connect the three black wires from the sensors to the black wire from the panel and connect this junction to a good ground. At the panel connect the three blue wires from the sensors to the blue wire from the panel. Connect the red wire from the panel to a good 12 volt source. Your done.
Be sure to identify each sensor for it's intended tank by trimming the small tabs on the circuit boards.
The sensor boards will not be exactly the same height as the tanks. You should bias the placement of the sensors on the tanks to emphasize the important region. i.e. offset the sensor toward the bottom of the fresh tank and towards the tops of the gray and black tanks. The fresh tank nearing empty is more significant than the full tank whereas the gray and black tanks approaching full are more significant than the empty tanks.
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Very good read Charlie. Thanks for taking the time to pound all that out. Makes a lot of sense on the placement of the sensors based on tank type! Also the "method one" wiring does seem simple enough? I guess I'll dive in tomorrow and see what I can accomplish.. wish I had you here with me for guidance!
Did some looking and from my OEM panel I only have 3 wires, 14ga, that actually go towards the tanks. I'll trace those tomorrow under the camper. One is black, one is blue, the other a brownish orange.
[quote source="/post/8683/thread" timestamp="1427775012" author="@surfsup"]Did some looking and from my OEM panel I only have 3 wires, 14ga, that actually go towards the tanks. I'll trace those tomorrow under the camper. One is black, one is blue, the other a brownish orange.
[/quote][font size="3"]Very interesting. Can you find any manufacturer/model info? Also any description or pictures of the tank probes and how they're hooked up? We've been a bit vocal on knocking the standard 4 light/4 probe monitors, but maybe we've not been giving LL credit where it's due. Only three wires to the tanks would indicate some sort of proportional capacitive sensors. Regardless, you'll love the SeeLevel.
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Yep you nailed it. Each of the three tanks have 2 14ga wires coming from the OEM panel, which is a [a href="http://www.rvpartscenter.com/Image/20401.jpg"]KIB Micro Monitor[/a]. Each 14ga wire is spliced down to 18ga near each tank --> red and white. The 18ga red wire is run into a KIB capacitor where it splits 3 other 18ga wires --> orange, green yellow --> which run to the tank probes. The 18ga white wire is obviouly my ground and it runs to another probe at the bottom of the tank, away from the others.
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-TsXU2U59Dsw/VRqwKHfFtvI/AAAAAAAASqM/xPF5cmUoW2o/s800/upload_-1.jpg)
[font size="3"]Surfsup,
I think I understand, sort of. Are there a total of three pairs (red & white) coming from the panel, one pair to each tank?? Or is there only one pair coming from the panel, which then splits out to the three tanks?? From research I think the little red molded things are actually resistor networks containing three resistors. Apparently KIB uses the probes to switch 1,2, or 3 resistors in parallel as the fluid level rises. Either way it's still a four probe system subject to all the inaccuracies we've grown accustomed to.
Assuming there are three red and white pairs coming to the panel you can use your blue-->red and black-->white scheme at each tank. Then, at the panel just splice the three red tank wires to the blue wire from the panel and splice the three white tank wires to the black wire from the panel. Ground the black panel wire and connect the red panel wire to +12V. discard the resistor networks and the wires connecting them to the probes. This method allows you to use the three 2-wire cables routed as they are now. Just add enough wire to allow optimum placement of the SeeLevel sensors.
I recommend you follow SeeLevel's suggestion of using painter's tape for trial positioning. The 3M adhesive on the sensors is awsome; you only get one chance. After you've mounted the sensors, spray them with the recommended undercoating rubber from an auto store. They'll stay for ever.
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There are only three single wires leaving the OEM panel and they appear to be the tank probe feed wires. I get what you're saying about those, I.e., tie those into the harness blue wire that snaps into the SeeLevel monitor. We are getting close to leaving on a cross country trip so I'm going to pack this up and do it when I get back. Once I start cutting and splicing there's no turning back and I don't have time to correct any unknowns. And like you suggested I want time to position the 709 sensors before committing the 3M glue! Thanks!
[font size="3"]Good plan. Take your time and do it right the first time. Let us know when you return.
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Just installed mine today. This thread helped a lot. Was a breeze actually. Had to sand the tanks a bit and relocate a bracket on the fresh tank but smooth sailing.
Can't wait to see that trick Tinkeringtechie monitor in action.
Quote from: @whoofit" source="/post/8834/thread" timestamp="1428112880
Can't wait to see that trick Tinkeringtechie monitor in action.
The tricked out monitor is temporarily on hold. My shop is in boxes right now. I'm thinking probably a fall project.
Bringing this thread back, I plan to get back in this project soon..
Quote from: @whoofit" source="/post/8834/thread" timestamp="1428112880Just installed mine today. This thread helped a lot. Was a breeze actually. Had to sand the tanks a bit and relocate a bracket on the fresh tank but smooth sailing.
Can't wait to see that trick Tinkeringtechie monitor in action.
Whoofit, how're you liking the SeeLevel?
[quote source="/post/14668/thread" timestamp="1440790941" author="@surfsup"][quote source="/post/8834/thread" timestamp="1428112880" author="@whoofit"][/quote]
Whoofit, how're you liking the SeeLevel?[/quote][p]I like it. Actually, it's hard to imagine not having it now. Feels like it's always been there. Is one of the more useful additions I've done to our trailer to date. Was wondering if you had gotten around to installing yours.[/p][p]
[/p][p]Installed ours into an access panel next to the battery monitor and surge suppressor remote display. I like it there to help see what's happening while dumping. Flushing especially.
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(http://i1312.photobucket.com/albums/t521/minuteman1965/DSC01365_zps9ltckoth.jpg)
You did a really great job! Yea, I've put it off too long. Hope to get on it soon. Any advice?
[quote source="/post/14711/thread" timestamp="1440956501" author="@surfsup"]You did a really great job! Yea, I've put it off too long. Hope to get on it soon. Any advice?[/quote][p]Thanks! [/p][p]
[/p][p]Well I take it you are not in any hurry as you already have working gauges. We did not so I needed to run the wiring too. That was the most difficult part for me to keep the wiring looking professionally done. I can't think of anything else to add to the info I've gleaned right here. I thought the written instructions and addendums that came with the unit were well done and left nothing out.[/p][p]
[/p][p]I too hope to see your completed install soon!
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Quote from: @surfsup" source="/post/14711/thread" timestamp="1440956501You did a really great job! Yea, I've put it off too long. Hope to get on it soon. Any advice?
[font size="3"]Surfsup,
Be sure to temporarily position the sensors on the tanks with duct tape. Then fill and empty the tanks to confirm they work the way you want them to. You only get one shot with the permanent adhesive. Afterwards spray the sensors with auto undercoating spray to protect them.
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[p] Hey, wait a minute Charlie, above you said to use Painters Tape!... :P[/p][p]
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I have both!
[font size="3"]Oh darn. Old age and failing memory I guess. Sorry. I can guarantee it will happen again too.
Painter's tape might be best, but if you use Chinese duct tape it will either fall off by itself or eat through the tank walls.
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My USAF son is home on leave, so we spent yesterday getting this job done. We used painters tape for the test phase but everything is permanent now and plan to undercoat soon. We took the opportunity to custom build a plexiglas panel to better/stronger mount the SeeLevel gauge, water heater switch, and 12v/USB outlets to the wall material. LivinLite obviously didn't spend much thought or effort installing them at the factory. I'll post pictures soon.
All in all, the only real challenge was configuring the existing water pump wires onto the correct posts on the SeeLevel's pump switch. Troubleshooting that only killed a few 15A fuses :]
Thanks in advance Surfsup, I also bought the one with the pump option and will be in the same situation. I have been waiting on the cooler weather to arrive in Houston to do my install.
nd, I'll post the pump switch connection info, the SeeLevel instructions did not provide any guidance at all. Both switches have 3 prongs and we assumed if we kept the wires identical based on the on/off positions we would be fine. Not.
Also, the switch indicator light wire (single wire) required a reroute. Easy.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-NV3e8ZaLPXc/VM6GeT1B8fI/AAAAAAAASew/nTAYOMd_Pxk/s400-Ic42/upload_-1.jpg)
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-12HFF7X9IQw/VikmKD3WqEI/AAAAAAAATH0/rh2KBPWJ6IU/s400-Ic42/1021151454.jpg)
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-H_YNntenPLM/VikmKH3v06I/AAAAAAAATH0/uyiCQYb9hpI/s400-Ic42/1021151503.jpg)
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-_lBeHkod2O0/VikmKLZA4iI/AAAAAAAATH0/6RrI9UVEYWY/s400-Ic42/1021151529a.jpg)
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-pwaPwhV23-g/VikmKCg59OI/AAAAAAAATH0/lrRaJKcRc1c/s400-Ic42/1021151504a.jpg)
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-G74WA0OfkK8/VikmKNkD7KI/AAAAAAAATH0/LsE53hsp2TE/s400-Ic42/1021151531.jpg)
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-CpaJ6ccqf4I/VikmKFtss8I/AAAAAAAATH0/xcRuqcZVFSQ/s400-Ic42/1021151541.jpg)
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-PXMq7NSF6gc/VikmKIwkPWI/AAAAAAAATHw/rR4j6wuVsyA/s400-Ic42/1021151740.jpg)
Looks great Surfsup! A big thanks for posting the pictures!
Thanks, certainly wish these could be calibrated. Was able to situate the black and gray strips where both gauges read 0% empty and 100% before actually full, but close, which is fine. The fresh water gauge is reading 10% at the point the pump starts to suck air. Since it's impossible to get it to read exactly 0% at this exact point, I feel it's better to have a known number that represents true empty. The great news is, all the measurements in between are a massive improvement in accuracy.
Update: after totally draining my fresh tank for the winter, the fresh water guage is now reading zero. Obviously the pump isn't getting to the bottom of the tank.
Fine work there Surfsup! I like the console look.
[font size="3"]Glad to see all you guys installing the Seelevel. Nice job, Surfsup! A great improvement over that POS LL and the entire industry are using. IMO the black and gray sensors should be placed as high as possible on the tanks and the fresh sensor as low as possible. You're most interested in when the waste tanks are about to be full and when the fresh tank is about to be empty. The the monitors can be calibrated by adding one gallon at a time and making charts or graphs.
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Thanks guys. And I agree with you Charlie on location and rationale. And as you suggest, I'll be able to develop an accurate correlation as we get more usage data.
I'm definitely interested in seeing if tinkeringtechie can develop some form of calibration circuit?
[quote source="/post/16251/thread" timestamp="1445601009" author="@surfsup"]Thanks guys. And I agree with you Charlie on location and rationale. And as you suggest, I'll be able to develop an accurate correlation as we get more usage data.
I'm definitely interested in seeing if tinkeringtechie can develop some form of calibration circuit?
[/quote]The approach I'm using will just replace the seelevel panel with a more intelligent controller (one that can be calibrated). So unfortunately it's not something that could just be added on. It's possible to add something between the panel and the sensors, but it would still require the second controller to emulate the sensors since all of the communications are digital. If you're going to add a second controller, you might as well throw a nicer screen on there so all your levels can be shown at the same time graphically.
Very cool, maybe a bit overkill for what I'm trying to accomplish? But still interested in your efforts, tinkeringtechie.
[quote timestamp="1445536050" source="/post/16231/thread" author="@surfsup"]nd, I'll post the pump switch connection info, the SeeLevel instructions did not provide any guidance at all. Both switches have 3 prongs and we assumed if we kept the wires identical based on the on/off positions we would be fine. Not.
Also, the switch indicator light wire (single wire) required a reroute. Easy.
[/quote]Surfsup, I did not see the post on the pump switch wiring. I am going to install my sea level system next month and have the pump switch option. Any chance you could post this? Not that I can't afford some fuses by why not get it right the first time from the Pros.
oops... yep, I'll get that done soon.
I hope this helps...
[img style="" style="max-width:100%;" src="https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-QjfZifg4xpE/Vv148zF6_hI/AAAAAAAATMc/YQQ7ueVMYUw34KU6LxwrvSFZyVqqry7UQCCo/s640-Ic42/upload_-1"]
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-12vkAb1Z2yQ/Vv148mM4chI/AAAAAAAATMM/aevNCkCSVakm46znp4LTD04f-Vd3rywCgCCo/s640-Ic42/upload_-1"%20style="max-width:100%;)
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-VPeKwSpe2JE/Vv147hjz-mI/AAAAAAAATMc/h973WDh_gN0tgSOEee7LHt9zeMzGsBGYQCCo/s640-Ic42/upload_-1"%20style="max-width:100%;)
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-T6Q8ElEyKa0/Vv148EDH0GI/AAAAAAAATMc/Z9UhI7eNonUkBwNOcPTWZh-SzE0dOV3FACCo/s640-Ic42/upload_-1"%20style="max-width:100%;)
Thanks Surfsup! Those pictures are a great help. I may even install mine in the coming week!
it's a really nice product. even though the high and/or low readings may be off a bit, the filling/emptying readings are much more gradual and provide useful info.
Quote from: @charliem" timestamp="1394137365" source="/post/21/thread[font size="3"][font face="arial"]Here's the SeeLevel tank level monitor installed in the 21RBS.
The power wire is tapped onto the TV Booster supply line in the cabinet. The sensor wire is run through the floor in the cabinet (careful not to drill into the fresh tank :'(). The cable is then routed to the three tanks with generous use of zip ties.
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Finally got my Seelevel monitor installed. Easy enough following Charlie's instructions. I ran new 18 ga wire versus using the existing wiring. Tapped into the power at the light switch, drilled holes through cabinet floor and then floor (sealed holes with rubber grommets to prevent chaffing), grounded to chassis. Taped senders on and filled each tank making sure senders read properly. Everything worked as planned. Sanded tanks, glued senders in and applied 2 coats of undercoating. All looks great and work.
[a href="http://s304.photobucket.com/user/bvabob1/media/Our%20New%20Camper/image_zps8zs3vkhg.jpeg.html"]
(http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn197/bvabob1/Our%20New%20Camper/image_zps8zs3vkhg.jpeg)
Ammobob,
Nice textbook installation. Good job. Don't forget your keys ?
Quote from: @charliem" source="/post/22895/thread" timestamp="1468180418Ammobob,
Nice textbook installation. Good job. Don't forget your keys ?
Thanks. read your instructions 3 time before I even started. Spare set for wife if I am not around.
I wish I had read Charlies' (et.al.) instructions 3 times (and actually paid attention). It cost me 2 additional sensors to get a reasonably good install. Anyway, due to the vagaries of sensor placement on the tanks and the shape of the tanks, the monitor readings are nonlinear. So, the scientist in me made graphs of the black and grey tank fills and the fresh tank emptying. Taped on the wall by the monitor, they make a quick assessment of the tanks easy. I also moved the water pump switch from the old monitor to the 709 SeeLevel console (there's a "hidden" blank place on its face) so the install is clean with complete removal of the old monitor. Now if I could just get the camera to use the flash when I need more light in the photo, I'd be all set!
[attachment id="1560" thumbnail="1"]
And I learned the black tank is 23 gallons to full (28 advertised), the grey tank is 29 gallons to full (32 advertised), and the fresh tank is 32 gallons to empty (38 advertised).
I ran an experiment with my fresh / gray tanks (and stock sensors) and found similar results with respect to capacity; 27 gallons gray and 32 1/3 fresh tank. I figured 6 gallons of fresh water was probably in the hot water tank (I didn't try turning on the hot water as I was using the shower to measure).
Quote from: @sandroad" source="/post/22918/thread" timestamp="1468248478I wish I had read Charlies' (et.al.) instructions 3 times (and actually paid attention). It cost me 2 additional sensors to get a reasonably good install. Anyway, due to the vagaries of sensor placement on the tanks and the shape of the tanks, the monitor readings are nonlinear. So, the scientist in me made graphs of the black and grey tank fills and the fresh tank emptying. Taped on the wall by the monitor, they make a quick assessment of the tanks easy. I also moved the water pump switch from the old monitor to the 709 SeeLevel console (there's a "hidden" blank place on its face) so the install is clean with complete removal of the old monitor. Now if I could just get the camera to use the flash when I need more light in the photo, I'd be all set!
And I learned the black tank is 23 gallons to full (28 advertised), the grey tank is 29 gallons to full (32 advertised), and the fresh tank is 32 gallons to empty (38 advertised).
[p]you went a bit more scientific then I did. We don't dry camp but do camp in spots with no sewer so my bigger concern was will I get a 100% reading before anything backs-up. The fresh water tank(which we don't use) read 100% at B4 full and is showing 13% at empty though there is water left in tank as it is not fully level in my back yard. Guess I could level it and run the pump and see if it's sucking air.[/p][p]
[/p][p]The gray was filled by sink and black through toilet with water running through city connection. Hit 100% B4 any back-ups. Since I run a honey wagon I wanted to monitor and determine when to dump. If they read 100% and are not full then I will always be safe. I will find out next week with 3 days at Silver Falls SP with no sewer hook-up.[/p][p]
[/p][p]At some point I will get a gallon bucket and verify the accuracy/volume of the black and gray tanks just to know exactly where I am but it's not the most important thing for us right now.
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[font size="3"]So some points on the SeeLevel installations: Your results are very similar to mine. I also plotted curves one gallon at a time for FW and GW. The tank readings are extremely sensitive to leveling, being so wide and shallow, that the trailer must be absolutely level to get the plots. Then they are only as good as your leveling when on the road. That said the SeeLevel is 1000+% better than the OEM supplied 4 LED junk, or in my case, none at all.
If LL is now advertising 38G FW capacity it includes 6G in the WH. That 6 gallons really should not be included since, once filled, it remains in the WH. You cannot access it except by draining the WH. The real usable FW capacity is ~32G minus what is left when the pump begins sucking air. Again, very sensitive to leveling.
I haven't updated my the black tank curve, but I know when it hits 88% I should be emptying it. I have seen it go to 100%,but by then the toilet is burping so I don't let it go that long. You get burping before 100% due to the vent installation (same problem as the gray tank) and the depth of the toilet tail itself. Fortunately it warns you. The gauge allows me to get a really good and full flush using the black tank flush connection.
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