Grey Water Tank Problem

[jtelles3993]

nd, Don at LL seems like a great guy, keep us posted.

[jerrybeaird]

Will do.....thanks.

[jerrybeaird]

I just spoke with Don at LL and we had a good conversation.  He said that he had already spoken with production on this issue of the vent tube being too long.  He did ask me to send him a link to this thread, which I did, as the pictures that Brenda and Bryce posted are very informative.

All in all, I think that we are in good hands on this issue.  I will be taking my TT to my dealer sometime next week when I am back in the area.   Don asked me to go over this info with the dealer so that they would not have to re- diagnose the problem.  I will send this thread to them also.

I feel good that this will finally be fixed.

[kycamper]

I sent the link to this thread to Don and to D&H last week.

Don had the ability to download all of the information. I hope he reads this forum. He would gain a lot of helpful info to help make these trailers all that they can be. Even with the shortcomings, we like our Camplite A LOT!!!

The company needs to keep improving their product and can do so by just paying attention to the feedback given here. 

How many other industries can have this type of feedback offered to them ??

Hope they find the time to read this stuff.

[charliem]

[font size="3"]Update on my gray water tank situation:
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[font size="3"]To recap: My sink drains would burp when gray tank was ? ½ full. Encountered this at least twice while camping. Sink drains would stop when gray tank was ? ½ full. Full tank should have backed up into shower basin, but did not. Verified problem by dumping 6 gallon jugs into the shower. Sinks burped at ? ½ full. After coordinating with LL, took CL to Camping World (CW) for warranty repair. Discussed theory that vent was protruding too far into tank.

CW "repaired" under warranty. I was told they replaced the AAV under bath sink and problem disappeared. CW techs said they see this quite frequently so they knew what to look for. They said they confirmed fix by dumping 5 gallon buckets into shower. This didn't quite fit my understanding, but left for a trip. I did not rerun the bucket test at this time.

No problems were noted on trip. The tank filled properly as indicated on the SeeLevel. The full tank backed up into shower as expected with no sink burping.

At home, while convalescing, I ran a test by filling from kitchen sink and shower head full open. The tank filled properly, no sink burping. Either the tank is fixed or the new AAV is bad. I checked the AAVs by pointing a leaf blower into the open gray drain and confirmed air was blowing out of roof vent and not out of either AAV. (Note to TinkeringTechie: Thanks for the idea, but too much air from the blower can empty sink p-traps even with vent working. What a mess!)

I had speculated that dumping large quantities of water into the shower might cause the water to block the vent, thereby forcing air back through sink p-traps. Doesn't happen. I reran the bucket test until the shower backed up several inches, with no burping sinks.

So this leaves me with four possibilities:

[/font][ol type="upper-alpha"][li][font size="3"]The tank  always was OK, but the experience on the first trip and the
subsequent bucket test definitely indicated a vent problem.[/font][/li][li][font size="3"]The original AAV really was bad, but this doesn't fit my understanding of the issue.[/font][/li][li][font size="3"]CW dropped the tank and cut the pipe, but told me the new AAV fixed the
problem. This is the only thing that makes any sense, but why would CW
not tell me the truth? Just a case of one shop tech not talking to
another, or something else? Nothing else fits observations.
[/font][/li][li][font size="3"]I really don't understand any of this and should kick back with a beer.[/font][/li][/ol][p][font size="3"]
[/font][/p][p][font size="3"]Whatever the answer, it all works now. I hate it when things fix themselves! Maybe it was all just a bad dream[/font][/p][font size="3"]
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[shovelhead]

Charlie  it's almost as bad as "intermittent" software failures.   I like D. a nice cold one.

[mitch]

Well, it seems like this would be a moment for one of my favorite saying, "Don't overthink it, no good can come of it"

[jerrybeaird]

Well, after discussing with my wife, we decided that I would do the repair.  I am glad that I did as the original install of the grey tank was installed haphazardly (sp?) at best and thus was subject to a hack repair job if not done with care.  (ie. holding strap slapped on and screws real crooked, almost missing the frame on one, real crooked tank, jammed in to trailer frame, etc.)

I ended taking off 3 inches as I erred on the conservative side because the vent has to protrude into the tank by 2", as Bryce pointed out.  It was also 85 deg so I allowed for cold weather contraction of the PVC.  There was excess sealant on the bottom of the vent, which is shown in the pictures below.

Overall, the "gallon" test went from around 14 gallons to 26 gallons before it started burping in the bathroom sink again.  It might fit another gallon as I was not sitting level in my driveway and tilted to the vent pipe side.

Overall, I am happy with the results.  On a side note, I thought that on the side of the tank it had a 30 gal capacity, which I will verify when I go back to where we store it.




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[img style="max-width:100%;" src="http://i1209.photobucket.com/albums/cc381/nd1979jk/image.jpg2.jpg"][/a]



[a href="http://s1209.photobucket.com/user/nd1979jk/media/image.jpg5.jpg.html"]

[charliem]

[quote source="/post/9770/thread" timestamp="1429724363" author="@nd1979"]Well, after discussing with my wife, we decided that I would do the repair.  I am glad that I did as the original install of the grey tank was installed haphazardly (sp?) at best and thus was subject to a hack repair job if not done with care.  (ie. holding strap slapped on and screws real crooked, almost missing the frame on one, real crooked tank, jammed in to trailer frame, etc.)

I ended taking off 3 inches as I erred on the conservative side because the vent has to protrude into the tank by 2", as Bryce pointed out.  It was also 85 deg so I allowed for cold weather contraction of the PVC.  There was excess sealant on the bottom of the vent, which is shown in the pictures below.

Overall, the "gallon" test went from around 14 gallons to 26 gallons before it started burping in the bathroom sink again.  It might fit another gallon as I was not sitting level in my driveway and tilted to the vent pipe side.

Overall, I am happy with the res32 gals and the fresh capacity at 30gals.ults.  On a side note, I thought that on the side of the tank it had a 30 gal capacity, which I will verify when I go back to where we store it.

[/quote][font size="3"]Glad you undertook the project and it worked out. On your third and fourth pictures there appear to be short pipes projecting from the tank. Are these actually short collars into which the pipes from above insert when the tank is in place? If so, where are you assuming the 2 inch insertion is measured? It looks like the vent pipe could fully engage the collar without projecting appreciably into the tank itself?

I assume the other collar is the kitchen/bath sink drain. Penetration depth is not as critical on this one.

FWIW  LL advertises the gray tank capacity at 32 gals and the fresh capacity at 30gals. My gallon at a time test produced 33 gals gray before backup into the shower and 28 gals fresh before dry pump. These seem consistent. There are two gals left unusable in the fresh tank.
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[jerrybeaird]

Hi Charliem....the collar is really not where the sealing takes place.  If you put your finger inside the collar, an inch down you can feel a smaller diameter seal, which does the actual sealing.  The collar diameter that protrudes from the tank is slightly larger by about 1/8 inch or so.  Measuring from the top of the collar to the inner seal is 1 & 7/8ths or about 2 inches.

I suppose that not reaching the inner seal could be ok if you wrap the pipe with something, enlarging the diameter so it would seal on the outside collar.  Just a guess though.

Yes the other one is the drain and has the same inner seal.  It was tough to slide off as my tank was jammed up against the frame.  I wanted to show others the position of it in case there is a need to know.

[charliem]

Hi Charliem....the collar is really not where the sealing takes place.  If you put your finger inside the collar, an inch down you can feel a smaller diameter seal, which does the actual sealing.  The collar diameter that protrudes from the tank is slightly larger by about 1/8 inch or so.  Measuring from the top of the collar to the inner seal is 1 & 7/8ths or about 2 inches.

[font size="3"]Thanks for the update. Would you guess the position of the sealing ring itself is inside the tank? If so, how far? I'm trying to understand how far into the physical tank envelope the vent pipe must extend. That determines the height of the dead air space at "tank full".

BTW I sure hope LL is paying attention to this thread. Lots of good work being done by guys like you and Bryce.
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[jerrybeaird]

Hi Charlim.....I believe it was about an inch as I kept going back and forth on how much I wanted to cut off.  I actually did the whole install twice as it was real tough to calculate how much I would be "in the tank" and past the inner seal.  I think that I might be an inch past the inner seal and therefore losing capacity.  Overall, I am happy with the less capacity, but others may not and may want to cut it even shorter.  My fear was cutting too short do to a measurement error.  I have done too many of those in the past!

[tinkeringtechie]

[quote source="/post/9797/thread" author="@charliem" timestamp="1429747984"]My gallon at a time test produced 33 gals gray before backup into the shower[/quote]I've seen you mention the shower backing up before and keep forgetting to comment... Based on my observations of the plumbing in my 21BHS this shouldn't be possible. The shower on mine uses one of those fancy one-way valves (the name is escaping me at the moment) that shouldn't let anything go back the other way. It's not a conventional P-trap that just stops gasses. I wonder if some of the odor issues you're experiencing could be caused by this... if it's letting water through it might also let gasses. On mine when the sink backs up, the shower stays completely dry.

[charliem]

[font size="3"]TT,

Maybe not so good. As an old Chinese prof once said to me: Pees not to confuse me, my mind made up is.

I think I've read about such a device somewhere, but I've no indication there is one in the 21RBS. Something about a dry P-trap that doesn't freeze. I've always expected the shower to backup first since it's the lowest point. How do you know you have one and where is it? Visible?

I did at one point have a sink backup before the shower and that's what set me off on the long vent problem trail. That happened with only a partially full tank so I knew there was something amiss. If you think about the vent pipe protuding into the tank you'll see how a sink might be the first thing to backup. It's just another version of the burping sink symptom.

I checked the grey tank with your leaf blower suggestion, even to the extent of blowing the water out of the sink traps, and saw no indication of air escaping from the shower. Admittedly I wasn't looking for it, so I'll pay more attention if I experience the odor problem again. Have you ever run a gallon a a time test through a sink and checked vs you SeeLevel?
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[tinkeringtechie]

[quote source="/post/9836/thread" timestamp="1429814196" author="@charliem"][font size="3"]I think I've read about such a device somewhere, but I've no indication there is one in the 21RBS. Something about a dry P-trap that doesn't freeze. I've always expected the shower to backup first since it's the lowest point. How do you know you have one and where is it? Visible?
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Here's the device: http://www.hepvo.com/

I saw it under the shower when I was installing my surge protector. It explains how the shower drain can be so close to the regular floor height. Not much room for a conventional p-trap.

[quote source="/post/9836/thread" timestamp="1429814196" author="@charliem"][font size="3"] Have you ever run a gallon a a time test through a sink and checked vs you SeeLevel?
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I haven't but the SeeLevel gets to the high 80's or low 90's before it backs up (into the sink). I mounted the sensor at the top of the tank, so I'm pretty confident that I'm getting full capacity.