2014 21BHS - Weighty Matters!

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[quote source="/post/4792/thread" author="@djsamuel" timestamp="1415185938"][quote source="/post/4791/thread" author="@james" timestamp="1415172823"][font face="comic sans ms" size="3"]I'm very happy with my latest TV, it's rated at 16/22 and I can get 21 OTR if I go easy on it. I recently took the TT to Florida and got a solid 12 MPG, using the cruse control @ 70 MPH. I could probably squeeze out 1 or 2 more MPG if I would slow down just a little.    [/font][/quote]James has a Silverado 1500.  I averaged 11+ MPG over 5,000 from Florida to Arizona and Utah with my Ram 1500 (4.7L V8).  You could do even better with something like a Ram 1500 diesel (3.0L).  I know people that tow larger TTs and get about 20MPG with that, and it tows great since it is a diesel.  When it comes to towing, there is not as much of a mileage hit with a pickup versus other tow vehicles.  The camper is a huge wind drag.[/quote]Our 2013 Nissan 4.0L auto tranny Crew cab gets 25MPG on the highway @ 65MPH in flat lands. Our 2003 2.4L 4 cylinder 5 speed Tacoma gets 29MPG on the highway @ 60MPH. The Tacoma gets 16MPG towing the CampLite 11 up @ 55MPH. The Frontier gets 15MPG towing the CampLite 11 @ 55MPH. Both MPG results in SC flat lands. The Tacoma does not have enough power "for me" towing in the mountains, but the Frontier tows great in the mountains with 120 additional HP or over 40% more power than our Tacoma!

When we purchased the CampLite our TV was a 1987 Toyota "pickup" with 2.4L 22R engine and manual transmission. We traded in a 1100lb Chalet A-frame for the CampLite 11. The Toyota got 21MPG @ 55MPH towing the Chalet. While towing the 1600lb CampLite 11 home, never checked fuel economy, but it did not have enough power towing the higher profile CampLite 11 compared to the Chalet on the interstate. Had 5 people in line to buy the 1987 Toyota pickup for a couple years and the first one in line bought it with only 250,000 miles.

[tinkeringtechie]

You could do even better with something like a Ram 1500 diesel (3.0L).  I know people that tow larger TTs and get about 20MPG with that, and it tows great since it is a diesel.  When it comes to towing, there is not as much of a mileage hit with a pickup versus other tow vehicles.

We noticed on our last trip that diesel was 80 cents+ more than regular gas. Don't forget the cost of the AdBlue either... you'd have to get some pretty phenominal gas mileage to make that cost effective especially when you consider that you have to make up the additional cost of the vehicle first. The diesel adds $3k to the price of the truck, if you're getting 20MPG while towing at $4/gal that's $0.2/mile. My truck gets 12MPG while towing at $3/gal which is $0.25/mile. So you're saving $0.05/mile with the diesel. That means you'd have to drive 60,000 miles just to make up the additional cost of the engine itself.

[djsamuel]

[quote source="/post/4830/thread" timestamp="1415287705" author="@tinkeringtechie"][quote source="/post/4792/thread" timestamp="1415185938" author="@djsamuel"]You could do even better with something like a Ram 1500 diesel (3.0L).  I know people that tow larger TTs and get about 20MPG with that, and it tows great since it is a diesel.  When it comes to towing, there is not as much of a mileage hit with a pickup versus other tow vehicles.[/quote]We noticed on our last trip that diesel was 80 cents+ more than regular gas. Don't forget the cost of the AdBlue either... you'd have to get some pretty phenominal gas mileage to make that cost effective especially when you consider that you have to make up the additional cost of the vehicle first. The diesel adds $3k to the price of the truck, if you're getting 20MPG while towing at $4/gal that's $0.2/mile. My truck gets 12MPG while towing at $3/gal which is $0.25/mile. So you're saving $0.05/mile with the diesel. That means you'd have to drive 60,000 miles just to make up the additional cost of the engine itself.[/quote]Very true. If you look at it from a purely monetary standpoint, it is difficult to justify. I wouldn't mind one though due to the higher torque.

[david]

In my area the difference between regular gas and diesel is 40-50 cents per gallon.

I looked at the Jeep Cherokee when we bought our Pathfinder last year. The press had reported the availability of a diesel (presumably the same one that came out in the Ram recently) in the Cherokee six months earlier. But the dealer said that they did not expect to get them for another year. Wow, Chrysler was touting an engine a year and a half before it was available to the public. And making samples available for test drives, well maybe. Edmunds, Motor Trend, etc all tested and reported on them. Or did they do what we called in college a "dry lab"

I could see that the price differential would be huge when it finally came to our shores, much more than $3,000 because the manufacturers always pile up expensive, unwanted options for a popular new model. Or maybe the delay was due to problems with the engine, who knows. So the engine is now available for the Ram and presumably for the Cherokee. I would be curious what the real price difference is for the Ram.

Having said all of the above negative stuff, I am a big fan of diesels. We have had one in the last seven boats that we have owned and one gasser. The gasser drank fuel. I wish that diesls could be made at a reasonable cost for cars and trucks though.

The fuel mileage benefit is real and 20 MPG towing with a Ram diesel vs 12-13 MPG with an equivalent gasser is in the ball park. And the driving feel while towing a trailer is phenomenal due to the low end torque of the diesel.

But I am happy with the 3.5 liter, 260 hp gasser in my Pathfinder. The CVT makes up for some of its peaky torque.

David

[djsamuel]

The diesel Cherokee is only slated for Europe for the time being.  Many publications and dealers got that mixed up with the impending release of the 3.0L diesel for Grand Cherokee and Ram.

[jd]

I have an MDX with a 5000lb tow and I've been planning on ordering the 21bhs.  I don't want to go over weight on the tougue and stuff and it sounds like its almost impossible to keep it under 500 (which is my max).   Could it be the water tanks?  

[fasteddieb]

[quote source="/post/4877/thread" author="@jessinwa" timestamp="1415336767"]I have an MDX with a 5000lb tow and I've been planning on ordering the 21bhs.  I don't want to go over weight on the tougue and stuff and it sounds like its almost impossible to keep it under 500 (which is my max).   Could it be the water tanks?  [/quote]Pilots have to learn about weight and balance.

The basic formula is, Weight x Arm = Moment.

IOW, the effective "weight" of something is affected by its distance from the pivot point.

For example, 20 gals of water weighs about 160 lbs.

If it was carried right on the tongue that would increase the tongue weight by about 160 lbs.

But if it was half way back to the axles, it would only increase tongue weight by 80 lbs.

If it was right over or under the axles it would have no effect.

This also leads to the conclusion that all weight aft of the axle decreases tongue weight.

Point of all this is that I think the water is carried very close to the axles, so the effect of that weight is minimized.

[charliem]

[quote timestamp="1415336767" author="@jessinwa" source="/post/4877/thread"]I have an MDX with a 5000lb tow and I've been planning on ordering the 21bhs.  I don't want to go over weight on the tougue and stuff and it sounds like its almost impossible to keep it under 500 (which is my max).   Could it be the water tanks?  [/quote][font size="3"]Unfortunately the short answer is no. The 21BHS is now advertised at TW=440#. That's without any propane, battery, water, stuff. A single group 24 battery and 20# of propane add 66# right on the tongue so you're at your limit. Then you add camping supplies and personal stuff, the optional microwave, and possibly some other factory options and you're way over 500#. The fresh water tank is directly over the axles so contributes very little to TW. The 6 gallons in the water heater and the two waste tanks are behind the axles, thereby subtracting from TW, but their effects are minimal due to their shorter distance behind the axles. And remember, the TW rating on your vehicle assumes nothing in the car except fuel and a driver. Adding passengers and baggage subtracts from the tongue weight rating. The common experience from 21BHS/RBS owners seems to be well in excess of 500# tending upwards of 600#.
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[fasteddieb]

I did just look and on my 21BHS the fresh water tank is directly over the axles, so it would have essentially no effect on tongue weight.

[leslie]

While everyone is pondering tongue weight and their tow vehicle, the weight of the ball hitch needs to also be considered, even though it isn't included on the tongue weight. Mine is heavy, I guess about 50 lbs added to the weight on the tow vehicle. I'll bet charliem's ball hitch will weigh even more now that he is considering going to a larger ball hitch.

[charliem]

[quote source="/post/4890/thread" timestamp="1415390091" author="@leslie"]I'll bet charliem's ball hitch will weigh even more now that he is considering going to a larger ball hitch.[/quote][font size="3"]Not so much, Leslie. The new coupler and ball together add less than 4 pounds. Insignificant overall.
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[fasteddieb]

I think she's talking about the weight of an entire weight distribution setup, which is substantial - 39 lbs in my case with the EAZLift Elite.

Which is why my first weighing had the hitch resting on the tongue for the initial 625 lb reading. 

[charliem]

[font size="3"]She was referring to both the total and my additions. The total is a bunch; the additions are insignificant. BTW, I have no idea how John(icq102) is towing a 28BHS with a Flex! He must have ordered the Helium option from LL  .
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[leslie]

Well now I am confused. When you talk tongue weight, aren't you including WDH and/or anti-sway? I thought it did.

Weight on the back of the tow vehicle = weight of the ball hitch + tongue weight, in which I was including WDH

The weight that we add on the back of the tow vehicle needs to be considered when looking at the carrying capacity of the tow vehicle, not to mention the rear axle capacity.

Us newbies are easily confused.

[charliem]

[font size="3"]You are correct, Leslie. You add all the weights together when comparing to your TV tongue weight rating. However, for the purpose of computing TW as a percentage of total trailer weight for sway evaluation, the part of the WDH that remains on the TV is not counted as part of the tongue weight or part of the trailer weight. It becomes part of the TV weight, and does count against the GCWR. Confused? Don't worry. It's a small and mostly insignificant distinction. Just for us techies  .
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