Fifth wheel towing and safety

[david]

[p]Someone asked a question on another sub forum about LL's fifth wheel trailers. I don't know a thing about LL's fifth wheel trailers but I did own and tow a lightweight 23' box length fifth wheel all over the western states- about 5,000 miles. So I have some perspective.[/p][p]
[/p][p]First of all to tow a fifth wheel trailer you need a conventional pickup truck- duh!. Not a Ranger, S10 or Frontier, but a full size pickup. Most full size pickups have towing limits (and sometimes fifth wheel limits are a little higher) of 7-8,000 lbs with a V8. LL's 26' model weighs 5,800 lbs dry so any full size, half ton pick up with a V8 can tow it. Mine was about 5,000 lbs dry and I think the tow limit on my 2004 truck was 7,000 lbs. GCVW will probably be the more limiting parameter, but I don't think that LL's 26' model will tax that either.[/p][p]
[/p][p]The 32' model's dry weight is 6,500 lbs and with water and gear might tax a 1/2 ton pickup's capabilities. So you need to go with a full ton pickup to tow one of those.[/p][p]
[/p][p]Another tow vehicle consideration is bed length. Pickups come in 6' or 8' bed lengths. 8' is better for a couple of reasons. First you get a longer wheel base which is always good for towing. Secondly with the shorter bed, the front of the camper can interfere with the back of the truck cab in extreme turns such as when backing up. Sliding hitches are made to deal with this- you slide the hitch back to maneuver and back forward to tow. But I preferred the 8' bed so I didn't have to worry about it. Long wheel base models also come with bigger gas tanks which is a plus.[/p][p]
[/p][p]Fifth wheel trailers inherently tow better than tow behind trailers. That is because the hitch pivot point is before the rear axel making sway almost non existent. Also the hitch weight can be much higher due to the pickup's load carrying capability which reduces sway. Mine felt totally solid in all conditions except for a 40 mile per hour cross wind in Arizona that had everyone towing a trailer pulling over to wait it out.[/p][p]
[/p][p]And the hitch is mounted solidly over the full width of the bed, so it isn't going anywhere! You can install a fifth wheel hitch on any full size pickup. Most shops can install one in an hour or two.[/p][p]
[/p][p]Towing mileage will be pretty awful, but no different than the same truck towing a tow behind trailer of the same weight. My half ton, 5.4 liter V8 towing about 6,000 lbs got 10-11 mpg on the highway doing 65 mph. And FWIW I don't believe in towing that kind of weight with the newest turbocharged V6 Eco-Boost engines, no matter what Ford says. There is no substitute for cubic inches when asking the engine to put out at least twice what its non towing hp requires.[/p][p]
[/p][p]But a diesel pickup is the cat's meow for towing.  Lots of torque for acceleration and 1/3 better mileage. Any of them should be able to tow the 26' and get 14-15 mpg at 65 mph. Dodge Ram offers a 3 liter diesel in their half ton pickup and others can't be far behind. That would be the perfect tow vehicle for the LL 26.[/p][p]
[/p][p]Ask me any more questions that come up. I am sure that fifth wheel trailers are a bit mysterious to most LL customers.[/p][p]
[/p][p]David[/p][p]
[/p]

[vrvinmo]

How much is the hitch weight on the 26' LL 5th wheel? I would think it would be too much for many of the 1/2 ton trucks out there. My 1/2 ton can tow over 9#, but only has 1199# payload. I am seriously considering a 5th wheel and selling my VRV 619, so this all interests me. I'll definitely have to sell my truck in favor of a 3/4 ton though.

[david]

Well, with two people (200# ea), 25 gallons of gas and a 75# hitch, you have used about half of your payload, leaving about 600#. The pin weight on a 26' should be under that but not by much.

David

[dhrvcenter]

The 26' Livin Lite 5th wheel has an 800lb pin weight.  

[david]

Well, with an 800 lb pin weight that certainly bumps you up to a 3/4 ton pickup to tow the 26' I find that a bit disappointing considering the Livin Lite image. A 3/4 ton pickup is definitely not living light since for non towing every day use the extra beef (and there is a lot in a 3/4 ton pickup) is mostly wasted. Not to mention ride and mileage penalties.

Maybe LL should offer a 22-24' box length fifth wheel that can be towed with a half ton, hopefully with an aluminum frame. If the dry weight of a 21RBS is 3,350 lbs then I don't see why a fifth wheel should be that much more. But neither can I see why the 26' fifth wheel weighs 1,500 lbs more than the 28BHS. Not really Livin Lite.

Think about it. You have to spend another $5,000 or so to buy a 3/4 ton truck over a 1/2 ton to tow a 26'. Why not put that extra money into a lighter fifth wheel?

David

[david]

Opie:

Lots of good questions. Let's start with the bottom and work up:

All Camp Lites and presumably the fifth wheel are solid three season campers. To go four seasons you would have to:

1. Put heavy foam interlocking tiles on the floor to add insulation.
2. Nothing you can do about the windows except keep the shade drawn at night to add a bit of insulation. The windows are single pane unlike true four season RV's.
3. Insulate and add 12V heating tape to the water pipes.
4. Water tanks- Well you don't have a forced air furnace blowing over them like some true four season campers. If I were camping long term in below 20 F weather I would put a skirt around the bottom and set a small space heater on low to keep that space above freezing. If you want to camp in these conditions without a pwer hook up you might be able to put a duct in the LPG furnace and poke it through the floor to keep the space underneath above freezing. Depends on the layout if it will work.

LL is discontinuing the 5th wheels because they can't make enough money on them. But LL will be around to honor the warranty.

Towing capacity- The GCWR (sum of TV and trailer) will probably be the limiting factor. The LL32 is probably going to weigh 7,500 lbs with options, gear and some fluids and have a hitch weight in excess of 1,000 lbs. Your loaded TV with passengers but without the hitch weight will weigh about 6,000 lbs. It should work. The 2014 F150 towing guide says that the 5.0 V8 with max payload package and a 3.73 rear end has a GCWR of 15,000 lbs.

See http://www.ford.com/resources/ford/general/pdf/towingguides/14FLRV&TT_F150_Sep11.pdf

David

[charliem]

[font size="3"]First let me state that I have no experience or exposure to the LL fivers. My experience is only with LL trailers.

If you really want to live in this year round the CL is not for you. Heat loss or gain are determined by insulation and air infiltration, neither of which are LL strong points. Insulation, the space to provide for it, and all season features such as thermal windows and tank/piping heating all add weight. You can't have it all. You have to decide what your real priorities are. If you want to live year round with occasional excursions, and have the TV capability, I would lean toward the heavier trailer. However, realize that if/when leaks develop you're in for major work/cost to repair the wood floored/rubber roofed/bat insulated trailer.


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[david]

I did not know that they were being sold with no LL warranty, only equipment supplier's warranties. But that is 95% of what you need normally, so I wouldn't worry about that. The prices are very good on the discontinued LL 5th wheels.

The 32' is about 1,000 lbs heavier than the 5th wheel I towed and I got 10-11 with essentially the same truck. You shouldn't do worse than 10 and maybe better as truck efficiencies have improved in the last ten years (better fuel injection, transmissions, etc).

Yes the real four season RVs have better insulation, as you note about double the R of the LL. But in the Ms or Al climate it shouldn't make that much difference. I am an engineer, so with that excuse here goes:

With an average R of 8 (including windows) and an average daytime/nighttime temp of about 40 (northern Al) in the winter months you will need 4,500 btu/hr to keep the unit at 70. That is equal to the heat from one 1,500 watt space heater. Even better if you have heat pump A/Cs (not the strip heat kind); then it will be near 600 watts. At 10 cents per KW (maybe even cheaper in TVA areas) the space heater or strip heater will cost you about $100 per month and $40 per month with a heat pump.

In the summer a 15,000 btu/hr rooftop AC unit will have to run about 1/3 time on average and they draw about 2,000 watts. So it will cost about $50/mo for AC in the summer.

So the insulation on an RV isn't that big of a deal because it is a relatively small area to heat or cool. But I do like the insulated and heated tanks and enclosed dump valves of the Gulfstream. It would make living in near zero temps easy compared to the LL which will take some doing. OTOH, if you are permanently hooked up with water and sewer you will never fill the tanks so you really don't need to worry about them freezing, just the water pipes.

Where are you going to live. Hurricane mobility implies near the Gulf Coast where the winter temps will be easier. But I grew up in Houston and uninsulated pipes in the attic sometimes froze.

The decision seems to be whether to buy the cheaper and better insulated but heavier Gulfstream or the LL model. Can  you tow the Gulfstream easily. That is the real question.

David

 

[charliem]

[font size="3"]As David has accurately observed, you don't tow either with an F-150. And with the workmanship problems (leaks) being reported I think the factory warranty is worth something.
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[david]

Charlie:

I think that he can (theoretically) tow the LL 32 with his 1/2 ton Ford. It has a GCWR of 15,000 lbs and the combined weight of his truck and trailer will be about 13,500 lbs. Whether he can tow the other 5th wheel is an open question. He will be close to that limit depending on which model he is considering.

The only thing that I can see tagging LL with in a warranty claim is massive structural failure- the forward section of the 5th wheel fails and cracks. That might possibly happen, particularly if LL started using aluminum frames in their 5th wheels. There are huge forces on that front end which is why LL started with a steel frame, but I have recently seen references to an aluminum frame. There isn't much experience with aluminum out there.

Otherwise everything else that the manufacturer might possibly warrant is trivial. Even if I had reported my floor water spray problem during the warranty period, I can't see what LL would do about it. I can fix it with an hour of crawling underneath and caulking the seams. Well maybe much more if I have to remove the tanks but I think caulking the exposed seams near the wheel wells will do it. But it happens so infrequently I probably will just live with it.

David

[charliem]

[font size="3"]David,

Opie has an F-150 , 302 cu. in. w/3.73 rear end. Sounds a bit light. Although LL doesn't advertise the pin weight I think it must be in the 800-1000 range empty. Add to that gear, stuff, people and I'd be looking at the payload rating.

LL (Scott) made a big deal about the light weight steel frame he found. Unless they changed I think it's still steel. You or I might want to tackle smaller warranty issues like roof leaks (see djsamuel), electrical snafus, and fit issues, but others may not. Just suggesting an eyes open approach.


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[charliem]

[font size="3"]OK. Ford advertises payloads of 1700# or more depending on options so it may work. I'd have chosen a higher numeric rear end, but it might work. Depends.
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[david]

Charlie:

He reported several posts up that he has the max payload package which gives him a 3,150 lb payload and a rear GAWR of 4,800 lbs. Should work.

David

[ammobob]

[quote timestamp="1436734232" source="/post/13137/thread" author="opie"][div][/div]I have a 2014 F150 , 302 v8, 2 wheel drive, with max tow package and brake controller, tranny cooler, 3.73 rear axle and max, heavy duty payload package. if I have two people in the truck which weigh about 350 lbs and full gas in  the truck which is 26 gallons, can I tow the 6,500 lb living lite 32 rls, , that is my $64,000 question?
what are your thoughts on this? My rear axle GVAW is 4,800 and it has heavy duty springs and cross member and 3,150 payload capacity. I would take the six speed and install a bigger tranny cooler though, if I bought it. I'm still concerned about the livin lite being discountinued and having no warranties, and what insulation factor? is this a true four season trailer? [/quote]Opie, did you notice they had a 28' LL 5 wheel at the same dealer along with the 32? Might be easier to work out towing with your F150.

[swbc150]

Forget the tow rating on the F150 or any other 1/2 ton pickup, they were not designed to tow a 5th wheel. Sure, some do it as I have seen them on the highways but they are all pushing the tow limits when everything (pounds) is added up.

Get at least a 3/4 pickup, a big cu in Gasser well do you fine as long as you get the correct axle ratio/towing pkg.
Longer wheelbase is better for the 5th wheel trailer.

I use the F150 5.0L to tow my lighter LL Bearcat Toyhauler and here where I live and prefer to camp I am finding the 5.0L works harder than I like. Yes, I'm under my tow limit/payload with plenty of pounds to spare but I decided to make a change in my TV.(upgrade)