Failed Frame Welds

[pygrydr]

Powder Hound,

Man I hate this for you!  Makes me sick looking at your pictures!  Glad you found them before a complete failure!  Best to you with getting LL to make it right!

Regards,

Galen

[charliem]

[font size="3"]With these reports I crawled under and checked the welds on my 2014 RBS, built 10/13. I only found one questionable weld and it was not in a high stress structural location. I'll keep an eye on it, but it seems OK for now. I have over 30K miles on the trailer so apparently I drew a decent welder. I wonder if Thor dumped all the experienced welders and hired cheap labor. Welding is more an art than a science, especially on aluminum.
[/font]

[gnies]

I also looked under my 2015 13qbb built around june 2014 I i think and all weld look good

[hogtyd]

While winterizing my '12 13QBB today I also took a close look at as many of the welds I could see and all looked good. But definitely something I will check more often now.

Graham

[keeena]

I didn't mention in my earlier reply, but my trailer (VRV, bought May 2016, MY2015) has a hairline crack in a weld by the A-frame in the main center beam. I noticed this the day after I got it home. I specifically checked the welds because I'm aware of how tricky aluminum welding can be. To me it looked like the welds were rushed (the weld pass speed isn't consistent...weldor formed a puddle then jumped too far forward not carrying the puddle). I also see craters at the end of some welds and that does result in a weak point.

Some of the other posts got me thinking: would members be willing to post up a picture of a representative frame weld (not the best, not the worst), MY date, MF date, model, miles, and if they've ever had issues? I'm just curious. It seems like stuff built pre-late 2014/2015+ hasn't generated any complaints so I'm curious to see what those welds look like compared to mine.

[canuck]

Hello,

Well, repairs are done...at least I can now tow with a better conscience. From the repairs (see photo) I think this trailor will have to go to a shop and left for a few weeks and have things done a little better. I can't ask for perfection when I am parked on a friend's front lawn in a small mountain town. I really did not want to tow seven hours through the Rockies knowing what was behind me. Hopefully this will give me some time. Now, I will be checking everything on the frame on a regular basis.
 
Oh the joy, the phrase that I keep thinking about, The Good The Bad and The Ugly.

I did get an email off to LL. We will see.

As usual great comments and information from fellow owners.

Thank you,
[attachment id="1764" thumbnail="1"]

[david]

That repair probably was as good as you could do at the time and with your limitations, but it is far from a good repair. It looks to me that the welder just daubed weldment over the crack. The real problem and I must say probably because the only way to know for sure is an x-ray, is lack of penetration in the original weld. The repair probably did not penetrate (the original weldment was in the way) and only covered the crack.

Lack of penetration is probably the most common weld failure. It looks like the original welder just daubed a layer of weldment on and did not let the molten puddle penetrate the base metal. If done right the puddle goes almost through to the other side of the welded member and the joint has the total strength of the base member plus the strength of the filet.

It won't be easy to fix it right. You would need to grind out all of that weldment and maybe taper the joint so that it will be easier to reach the bottom. That can't easily be done given the location and with adjacent members in the way.

I would have a serious conversation with someone at LL, a real executive with the authority and knowledge to fix it right. What you have done looks like it has no more strength than the original weld. I would expect it to crack again.

David

[canuck]

Hi David, 

Very good information and comments. We did try and grind out the old welds but access was just too bad. Maybe a smaller pneumatic type grinder would work rather than the standard angle grinder. Lying on your back on the ground with limited space and near freezing temperatures are not optimal for welding any material, just my opinion. One day of my time was spent on just trying to clean the old failures the best I could. 

Yes, a discussion with the correct individual at LL will be required.

Thank you for you input.

[pjcd]

I have a early 2015 21 RBS model, I would think that it was manufactured in 2014...... Well what do you know, I just checked and ALL the welds on the body supports, (out board of the frame) are cracked or just plain missing. This is ridicules, Its no wonder the previous owners sold out, dump it before somebody starts a class action lawsuit. I will get somebody to repair this mess and then sell it. I overlooked a lot of poor quality control issues, but this is structural and potentially dangerous! I can not believe that they aren't aware of these issues.

[hogtyd]

...My wife said the frame weld failure needs to be reported to the National Highway Traffic Safety Admininstration through www.safercar.gov. If widespread, LL may have to conduct a recall. 

I agree..anyone with structural weld issues should report the issue to NHTSA at safercar.gov. I haven't tried it myself, but it looks like you can put in a VIN to test to make sure it's recognized.

Graham

[daplumbr]

[quote source="/post/25183/thread" author="@pjcd" timestamp="1475691245"]I have a early 2015 21 RBS model, I would think that it was manufactured in 2014...... Well what do you know, I just checked and ALL the welds on the body supports, (out board of the frame) are cracked or just plain missing. This is ridicules, Its no wonder the previous owners sold out, dump it before somebody starts a class action lawsuit. I will get somebody to repair this mess and then sell it. I overlooked a lot of poor quality control issues, but this is structural and potentially dangerous! I can not believe that they aren't aware of these issues.[/quote]Epic fail. Again, what a mess. I won't be able to check mine for a couple weeks but now I'm even more worried for my '15. LL was going through major line production changes when they were building the '15s, as we saw when we visited the factory in the fall of '14. The build dates are on the frame stickers and those with weld issues may want to include that info in posts. 

[canuck]

Hello,

I have been in contact with LL regarding the frame failure welds. So far they have verbally confirmed to my reinbursment of the weld repairs and have agreed to a frame inspection by a certified welder...also they say they will repair the frame as required. With our "new" frame welds, we have done all we can...we will still use our trailer but I will be crawling under every week to check what has happened to the frame. Any further failures and this unit will become one hell of an expensive lawn ornament.
 

Regards,

[joanne]

[quote timestamp="1475617527" source="/post/25163/thread" author="@canuck"]Hello,
Well, repairs are done...at least I can now tow with a better conscience. From the repairs (see photo) I think this trailor will have to go to a shop and left for a few weeks and have things done a little better. I can't ask for perfection when I am parked on a friend's front lawn in a small mountain town. I really did not want to tow seven hours through the Rockies knowing what was behind me. Hopefully this will give me some time. Now, I will be checking everything on the frame on a regular basis.
[/quote]

I'm not sure I understand which welds failed - these are the east-west floor supports outboard of the longitudinal frame rails? If so, is the frame flexing more than the body, or vis-versa?

I didn't mention in my earlier reply, but my trailer (VRV, bought May 2016, MY2015) has a hairline crack in a weld by the A-frame in the main center beam. I noticed this the day after I got it home. I specifically checked the welds because I'm aware of how tricky aluminum welding can be. To me it looked like the welds were rushed (the weld pass speed isn't consistent...weldor formed a puddle then jumped too far forward not carrying the puddle). I also see craters at the end of some welds and that does result in a weak point.

I had a couple of issues with welds. The original front end of my late 2011 (2102 model) 16BHB had the side frame rails brought up to the center beam about half-way between the trailer front and the ball, like the 13' and 11' models. That didn't last very long - after a few hundred miles I had  cracked welds, cracked trim and popped screws where the center beam supported the trailer front. I think that single beam design allowed the side rails to flex more than the center beam, so the east-west cross piece as the front of the trailer was flexing up and down a lot (perhaps).

LL came and got it and build a new front end that brings the side rails all the way up to the ball like the 21's. (I think most 16's had the newer design after spring 2012.) That design also had cracks in the welds where the center beam attached to the side rails and crosspiece up by the ball. I had a local shop re-weld those.

FWIW - I noticed that most of the pre-Thor brand new 16 & 21's sitting dealers lots had cracked welds that same spot. I saw at least a handful like that.

I also had a bent/misaligned axle from the factory. One tire worn out after 1000 miles. LL put a new axle on for me.

I all else fails, I'll have a new aluminum frame made and set the old camper on top of the new frame. It'll sit a bit taller, but I need a bit more ground clearance anyway.

I've now towed at least 20,000 miles.

--Mike

Some of the other posts got me thinking: would members be willing to post up a picture of a representative frame weld (not the best, not the worst), MY date, MF date, model, miles, and if they've ever had issues? I'm just curious. It seems like stuff built pre-late 2014/2015+ hasn't generated any complaints so I'm curious to see what those welds look like compared to mine.

Mine are generally good welds - the failures I had were likely design related.

[canuck]

Hi Micheal,

Yes, the failures were in the locations that you described. The slide side was worse than the door side. I think it is a weld issue and a design issue. With more use the condition just gets worse. The perimeter defiantly requires additional east west supports and better quality welds. The sides must be flexing a lot more than the middle. Flexing, vibrations, design, materials, poor welding...who knows?

Sounds like you have yours under control. Very frustrating.

Regards,

[gbpack]

Did a thorough inspection underneath our 21BHS today and found no problems with any of the welds. Our trailer was manufactured in November 2015 at their new plant, so maybe they had different welding people by then. All of the welds looked good. We have about 5,000 miles on our trailer already, so hopefully we won't have any problems.