Towing Weight vs Frontal Area Ratings

[gnies]

[quote timestamp="1464100723" source="/post/21465/thread" author="@charliem"][quote timestamp="1464095819" source="/post/21460/thread" author="@david"]Congratulations Paul! I feel a little bad that my comments may have pushed you to upgrade from your Escape. But if you like the truck, then all is well. You will be safer and more comfortable towing with the F150.

David[/quote][font size="3"]Don't feel bad, David. If I had been able to use this forum to justify a new 150 I'd be sending you a six pack of your choosing  8-)    . Better safe than sorry, but much better with a new 150! I don't hear Paul complaining.[/font]
[/quote]Yes I am actually really happy and glad that this discussion was brought up  

[easwen]

Damn...not feeling good about my due diligence at all.  We are picking up a new 13BHB( dry weight 2300lbs.) next week 800+ miles away from home.  The Audi Q5 ( 2.0t, 220hp,278 torque) is rated for pulling 4400 lbs. After reading the above posts, feeling I am asking for big problems with the engine. Groaning now....

[peislander]

Easwen - as folks in the other thread noted, you'll likely be fine in most circumstances. Where you may be pushing it is if you venture out into strong headwinds and you don't let them slow you down. Likewise, if you hit the hills and you floor it to keep your speed up climbing, you are bound to be pushing the limits. Set lower speed limits for yourself, particularly on hills & against headwinds, and you'll likely be fine and enjoy towing. Back roads with lower posted speed limits are often much more scenic than interstates (and on those back roads it isn't as embarrassing to be driving under the posted limits). 

[david]

The Audi Q5 with a 2 liter, 220 hp engine is at least 500 lbs heavier than Paul's 2 liter Escape. He just upgraded from his Escape to an F150 pickup to pull his CL13 because of just the concerns you mention. And I am the source of those concerns!!!

I do believe that a 2 liter engine will be taxed pulling a 4,200 lb curb weight vehicle, at least 800 lbs of gas, people and gear and a 3,000 lb loaded trailer- 8,000 lbs total. That is only 500 lbs less than my Pathfinder with a 16TBS but it has a 3.5 liter engine.

As PEIslander notes above, baby it and you will probably be fine. I would keep it down to 55 mph on flat roads and less in a head wind. Go up steep grades slowly and use tow mode so the gear ratio lets the engine rev.

The current trend toward low displacement, highly turbocharged engines is good for EPA mileage but is not good for towing. It will only get worse as we move towards 54.5 mpg in 2025.

David

[easwen]

David,

     For what it is worth, the Audi rep. I talked to Friday said that any failure of the engine, trans or other related parts would be covered by the Audi Warranty as long as the trailer weight is under the 4400 lbs.  Sounds dubious , hard to prove if I have a problem , etc.
As far as the 3000lbs of loaded trailer, right now I plan on putting 5 gal. of H2 0, one tank of propane and two sleeping bags and some plastic forks (Ha) in the trailer..try to keep the weight as close as possible to the dry weight listed, 2300lbs.  A trip to a public scale is in mind.

  

[popup2012]

Interesting Note:  At 2 dealers I bought TT from, neither would measure my tongue weight.  They always had some excuse,
1)  We cannot find our scale
2)  It is being repaired

I took both of them home and got my weight using the balance board and bathroom scale

[gnies]

Having towed with my Escape I was over the frontal area limit (30ft sq) but was under the weight specification (3500 lbs) and having towed with a Ford F150 here is my experience. With the Escape it was pulling no problem but the engine was reving more, sometime it felt really uncomfortable but it did the job. It was bouncing a lot on the road when it had bump and such, it is way better with the F150. I had a hard time in hills, I had no problem getting up there but it was slow and seemed to be hard on the engine. It was also a hassle to bring camping gears in the small Ford Escape. With the F150 it is a dream to tow with and you have plenty of space for your gears! Also the F150 is wider and since the 13QBB is only 7ft wide I don't need towing mirror and with my Escape I couldn't do without. You can feel the power difference! My 2.7L ecoboost F150 is rated to tow 7500 lbs and has a 1428lbs payload. With the Escape I was always worried to go over my payload limit but with the F150 I don't really worry about it.

I don't regret my choice, I feel safer it is more convenient to go camping with a pickup truck. Also I have been wanting a truck for a while and wasn't able to convince my wife until I showed her this thread we bought the truck the same week! She is really happy now that we have a truck  I let her pick the color!

Thank you David!

[swbc150]

Paul, You did the right thing by upgrading your TV, congrats on the 16F150 and the Color.

[gnies]

Paul, You did the right thing by upgrading your TV, congrats on the 16F150 and the Color.

Thank you! the wife wanted this color, wasn't hard to pick this one because I liked it too!

[swbc150]

[p]My favorite Blue color Ford has ever offered is the Blue on your 16 F150. I had it too with my then 14 F150 but towing here in the Mountains proved a bit much with the 5.0L and the 3.55 axle ratio. With the darker Blue Jeans Blue on the Ford Superduties and not wanting that deeper Blue color, I'm now with a Ruby Red Ford Superduty for my towing needs.[/p][p]
[/p][p][attachment id="1581" thumbnail="1"][/p]

[spot1]

Hope everyone does not mind this post of my findings with our "new to us" TT.

We were going to buy a larger TV before buying a Ollie at the end of this year. A 2015 Ollie came up for sale used, so we decided buy the Ollie and tow it home from MO with the Frontier. The Fronty surprised us how nicely it handled the Ollie on the trip home. We decided to use the Frontier as a TV for the Ollie in the eastern US this year. Still planning to purchase a larger TV at the end of the year for towing out west next year.

Frontier modifications:

Installed Timbren rear suspension modification on the Fronty. Height with 3? lift forged ball mount to top of ball unloaded is about 21?. With Elite II connected,
height to top of ball measures  19  3/4? with about 1  1/4? of sag with the Timbrens installed. The Timbren rear suspension enhancements reduced rear end sag and bounce.
Downside of this modification while on rough roads, ride is stiff while towing. Not using sway bar or WDH.



2013 Nissan Frontier Crew Cab 4.0L
GVWR  5730 pounds
GCWR  11,135 pounds

Oliver Legacy Elite II
GVW 7,000 pounds
Equipped with 5200K Dexter Axles with shocks & BFG Light Truck 16" radials.

Weighed Tow Vehicle & Ollie ready to go camping for a weekend outing, without coffee maker (need coffee) & food weights. Fresh, grey, and black water tanks empty.

Scale results:

Tow vehicle (TV) with two occupants and camping gear scale results: 4860 pounds
Combined TV and Ollie scale results: 9800 pounds
Ollie axles weighed while connected to TV scale results: 4520 pounds
Rig weight 9800lbs – 4860lbs TV weight = 4940 pounds Ollie weight ready to camp
Ollie weight 4940lbs – 4520lbs axles weight = 420 pounds Tongue weight ready to camp
TV weight 4860lbs + 420lb tongue weight = 5280 pounds TV weight with two souls on board

Towed the Ollie on a 940 mile round trip in the NC & TN mountains without any issues. Found towing at 62 to 63MPH, overdrive off, (2200RPM) and allowing to slow to 55MPH on slight grades and speed going up to 65MPH down hill averaged 15.1 MPG. Have towed on 6% & 7% grades in 3rd gear, 2500RPM @ about 40MPH so far.  Going down 8% grades try not to go over 35 to 40MPH using a combination rig & engine braking. Got 250 miles out of one tank using 15.7 gallons out of a 21.1 gallon tank. Speeds around 55 to 60MPH yielding 15.9MPG on that tank.  Tested one tank at about 60 to 65MPH and it yielded 14.6MPG. Overall round trip fuel economy was 15.1MPG.

[david]

Sounds like everything is within specs and towing great. That gas mileage is fantastic. Your speed and engine rpms are the same as my Pathfinder with a 3.5 liter V6 engine (maybe the same block as yours?) and I get 2 mpg less towing a 16 TBS.

David

[spot1]

[quote source="/post/23116/thread" timestamp="1468773017" author="@david"]Sounds like everything is within specs and towing great. That gas mileage is fantastic. Your speed and engine rpms are the same as my Pathfinder with a 3.5 liter V6 engine (maybe the same block as yours?) and I get 2 mpg less towing a 16 TBS.

David[/quote]David,

Thanks!

We were not expecting this kind of performance while towing the Ollie with the Frontier and were greatly surprised. Don't know about differences between the Nissan 3.5L and 4.0L engine. Some of the Ollie owners are towing the Elite II in western US mountains with the F-150 with 3.5L EB engine and really like the 3.5L EB performance/economy. I'm from the school of larger displacement for durability, but Ford has me rethinking that school of thought with their EB engines.

[david]

"I'm from the school of larger displacement for durability, but Ford has me rethinking that school of thought with their EB engines."

While small displacement engines with turbos make perfect sense for normal passenger cars, I don't think they make sense for towing. A passenger car that gets 30 mpg on the highway is only producing 25 hp. That is a very small fraction of the available hp which might be 200 plus. So the turbo makes sense. The engine get stressed lightly at normal highway speeds, but you have plenty of oomph when you want to merge, pass or impress your girlfriend with a burst of wot for a few seconds.

But that 30 mpg drops to 15, 13 or maybe even 10 while towing something big and heavy. At 10 mpg that engine has to produce 75 hp- continuously. At that power I would like 4-5 liters of engine to take the forces over a larger bearing and piston area than the 3.5 or even 2.5 liter Eco Boost engines.

Towing with a small displacement turbo charged engine is fine for small trailers, on flatland at speeds of 60 mph or less. Any more and I want cubic inches.

David

[spot1]

David,

Appreciate the information. 

Looks like the F-150 3.5L EB produces more HP/Torque at lower RPMs compared to the F-150 5.0L engine.

Honestly don't know yet, how the 3.5L EB stacks up against the 5.0L durability under the same conditions. The 5.0L and 3.5L EB F-150 are both on
my radar at this time. We were also surprised by the 261HP normally aspirated 4.0L Frontier Performance with our "new to us" TT.
It's fun to research, will see!

Here's some 2016 Ford gas power plant numbers not including the more powerful/higher torque 2017 3.5L EB.

2.7L EB    325HP  @ 5750RPM 375 lb ft @ 3000RPM

3.5L EB   365HP @ 5000RPM  420 lb ft @ 2500RPM

5.0L Coyote 360HP @ 5500RPM 380 lb ft @ 4250 RPM    

Ford information source:   http://www.f150hub.com/tech.html