Plumbing Query 21RBS

[mrt]

[font face="comic sans ms" size="3"]Hi All,

Does anyone know if there is a check valve on the shower drain?  Twice now, I have filled the GW tank and it backed up into the kitchen and bathroom sinks, but not the shower.  I'm OK with that and it seems logical but does someone know for sure?  The shower drain is functioning normally otherwise.

On another note.  Supposedly, the capacities of the tanks on my unit are as follows;
FW 30.5 Gallons
GW 32.0 Gallons
BW 28.0 Gallons

I was surprised on my last outing that both my GW and BW filled up and I still had about 1/3 of a tank FW left.  I drained the tanks prior to departure.  When I purchased I was quite happy that I could potentially fill up the FW twice before dumping (of course assuming fairly equal GW and BW waste).  I'm about to measure the tanks and determine the real capacities.  Has anyone else experienced this?

Mike
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[charliem]

[font size="3"]The 21s have a waterless trap under the shower. It minimizes the height otherwise required under the shower, thus eliminating the step up found in many RVs. [a href="http://www.hepvo.com/"]http://www.hepvo.com/[/a]  . This allows water to flow out, but prevents gas and water from backing up into the shower. So the sinks will backup without the shower backing up.

The three tank capacities are essentially as advertised. If both waste tanks are empty, and both are installed correctly, you can indeed use the FW tank ~twice. However there are two issues. First, if you have the typical 4 light monitor panel it's essentially useless in determining tank condition. Second, many owners have had trouble with the gray tank backing up before it's really full. It has to do with an improperly installed vent pipe. See this thread for the details [a href="http://livinlite-owners.com/thread/822/grey-water-tank-problem"]http://livinlite-owners.com/thread/822/grey-water-tank-problem[/a] . Although not yet reported, the black tank can have a similar vent problem. However the symptoms are different, resulting in premature "burping".
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[mrt]

[div][font face="comic sans ms" size="3"]Great, thanks very much.  I had a look at the old thread and I think this may be happening to me as well.  Just after I purchased the trailer we had a similar backup and there was no way the tanks were even close to being full.  We are going out next weekend and if it happens again I will pour water into the shower to see if it drains.  If so, it will kind of prove there is a problem with the AAV.  When I take the trailer in for its final warranty check in October I will include this on the list. 

 You have actually solved another problem for me.  In my nearly 100 year old house, I renovated the kitchen a few years back and had to use an AAV as it was impossible to install a stack on this side of the house.  Just last night I experienced the same thing happen in my kitchen sink.  It seems ok now, but I wonder if the AAV's get intermittently stuck.  I'll be keeping an eye on it.

Now that I know about the waterless trap in the shower I guess I can stop pouring anti-freeze in the non-existent trap!

Cheers
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[charliem]

[font size="3"]Follow the entire thread. The dealer service guys told me it was the AAVs and I went along for a while, but it is really the improper installation of the vent pipe to the roof. The AAVs cause an odor problem, but are not the cause of the prematurely full tank. The only solution is to remove the gray tank and cut off the vent pipe. If you're still in warranty, get back to the dealer. If not you've got a task ahead of you.

I'm not sure the waterless trap is completely immune to freeze up. It might still retain some water above the trap that might freeze.
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[mrt]

[div][font face="comic sans ms" size="3"]Holy smokes, that was a lot of reading.  I am definitely experiencing the same problems and will advise my dealer to include this on their warranty pre-authorization.  Part of me says to do this myself as I just know the dealer is going to be a pain and I really don't trust them.

Is there a way to extract an entire thread into a file that I could edit and print for the dealer?
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[charliem]

[font size="3"]I did the job myself because I had no confidence in the dealer. However, I had trouble in removing the gray tank and ended up with a leak when the tank is totally full. Not a huge problem since it's gray water, but a PITA. I did recover the full volume of the tank, but apparently the seal around the sink drain connection did not seal properly. I would put all this on your dealer and Thor. Make sure the symptoms are fully documented so they are on the hook after your warranty expires and you discover they didn't fix it.

I don't know how the entire thread can be captured and printed. Administrator [a href="http://livinlite-owners.com/user/1"]sean[/a] may have some hints. He is very good about reading these posts. Good luck and please keep us informed.
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[daplumbr]

[quote timestamp="1474148274" source="/post/24683/thread" author="@mrt"][div][font face="comic sans ms" size="3"]Holy smokes, that was a lot of reading.  I am definitely experiencing the same problems and will advise my dealer to include this on their warranty pre-authorization.  Part of me says to do this myself as I just know the dealer is going to be a pain and I really don't trust them.

Is there a way to extract an entire thread into a file that I could edit and print for the dealer?
[/font][/div][/quote]It may help to take data to the dealer. Measure the actual as installed capacity of the grey tank and use that number at the dealer rather than just say "My tank fills up too fast."  

[mrt]

[font face="comic sans ms" size="3"]Sooooo, it appears my trailer may be suffering from indigestion.  I started filling the tank through the kitchen sink using 4 gallon buckets expecting that I would get water in the sink after about 12 gallons. Not so! I was able to fill it to capacity (32 gallons).  And this time (for the first time) I observed a small amount of water in the shower basin.  I think my trailer may be a victim of 1 or 2 faulty AAV's.   As I was pouring the water (at a fairly heavy rate) through the kitchen sink, the bathroom sink was making a lot of noise. I believe the trap was sucked dry which to me says the AAV's were not opening to allow the air into the system.  I will let the shop have a look at the AAV's and change as necessary with I hope better quality ones or see if they can find something else.  It does make me wonder if the plumbing system is designed correctly because this is all very strange.  Even with a faulty AAV, one would expect the system to at least drain slowly.  I'm wondering if the pipes leading to the AAV's are filling with water or experiencing back pressure causing them to not open.  My son is a plumber, so I'll get him to have a look at the design and see if he notices anything strange.  I guess I'm happy that they (or I) won't have to pull the tank and operate.[/font]

[charliem]

[font size="3"]I hate to pour cold water on your theory (pun  :-[   ), but that's exactly what happens with the faulty vent pipe installation. Your test confirms that the tank is properly sealed, both AAVs are working, and the vent pipe is too long. As you pour water into the kitchen sink it displaces air in the tank. If the vent is properly installed it lets the air escape and the tank can fill. If the vent pipe becomes submerged as the tank fills the trapped air has nowhere to go except back up the sink drain pipe. Both drains combine into a common tank entry. The AAV on the bath sink is properly keeping the air from escaping so the air pushes past the P-trap and the sink gurgles. Same with the shower drain. The point where you begin to hear gurgling is where the vent gets submerged.
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[mrt]

[p][font face="comic sans ms" size="3"]Oy, I will rerun the test tonight.  However, this was the first time I was able to actually fill the tank before the sinks backed up.  And, I didn't get any blowback through the bathroom sink as I have in the past, but rather, the trap was sucked dry, leading me to think the AAV was malfunctioning.  I'll re-read the step by step, test and report back.  Man, I thought I was going to get out of this easily.  Stay tuned for part two of Faulty Towers![/font][/p]