Archive - Aluminium Camper Forum

Karen and I are in Rockford, IL picking up our new CampLite 21BHS.

Here it is:


(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3803/13436072073_a4efbb3e59.jpg)
(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7031/13436073943_f96cac63e6.jpg)



We head south tomorrow, and I'll report on how it tows behind FLEXIE!

Looks just like ours. You'll love it!

 I'm jealous  ;) Hopefully that will be me this weekend, but I won't find out for sure until tomorrow morning.

Made it safely to Peru, IN.

Trip report to follow...


(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7103/13456614593_6a617b889c.jpg)

Flexie has an indicator to show average gas mileage.

On the way up, we showed 20.6 and 21.5 mpg on the two tanks. Not bad with over 350 hp on tap.

Of course, we expected noticeably less pulling a trailer that size.

Still the results of the first leg driving south were a little disappointing:


(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7135/13456477525_a6914f0a93.jpg)



That was mostly expressway, averaging about 55 to 60 mph. Engine around 2,000 rpm.

Yikes!

Of note is that we were driving into some very strong headwinds - probably 20 to 25 mph or more.

For the next tank we were headed mostly eastbound on state roads and did a bit better - 10.5 miles per gallon.

I will report on subsequent tanks on the way home. It's certainly worse mileage than I expected but it is what it is.

[font size="3"][font face="arial"]Fast Eddie,

No surprises here. Expect 10-13 depending on speed, hills, wind no matter what you tow with. And wind resistance is by far the biggest factor on level ground. As a pilot you know that wind resistance increases approximately as the square of wind speed. Driving at 60 MPH into a 25 MPH headwind is equivalent to driving at 85, which produces about twice the wind resistance force as at 60 (85/60 squared). Oh yeah: beware of Kansas. The wind in KS is always a head wind, no matter which way you're driving  ;)

 I looks like you have the 3.5 EcoBoost? That ought to be a screamer for towing. Enjoy the 21BHHS.
[/font][/font]

Delayed just a bit leaving Peru, IN!


(https://farm3.staticflickr.com/2841/13486315104_8eab00e256.jpg)

Wow.  Will winter ever end?  

Knoxville. Safe. More later.

Home!

Trip report/evaluation to follow.

Thanks for the updates.

Along the Ocoee, almost home:


(https://farm3.staticflickr.com/2878/13526073335_e5d262f4b3.jpg)



And temporary home in front of our hangar at Copperhill, TN:


(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7372/13544584913_6cb3d43534.jpg)



I promise I'll do a more lengthy trip report soon!

We spent part of yesterday reorganizing our hangar, with the intent to see if we could squeeze the trailer in.

Most of the hangars are "T" shaped, but we got a reservation in early when the hangars were built and got an end one with extra space.

Maneuvering it into place with the help of a friend:


(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7036/13559463103_444537eb40.jpg)
(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7154/13559464943_b5e5b2a01e.jpg)
(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3701/13559417325_aecf3cafd8.jpg)Trip report still pending - I may break it down into "chapters", each posted to a relevant topic.

[font size="3"][font face="arial"]Cool! And a cool plane. The Camplite weighs four times as much as the plane, but the plane probably costs 4X the Camplite  :)
[/font][/font]

You just need to fit a boat in there and you'll be set for just about any excursion. Looking forward to the full report. Still waiting on my 21BHS... it's a long story that I'll write about in a separate thread.

Quick question...

...when the trailer is running 12v (no shore power) is it capable of running down the battery of the tow vehicle if left plugged in?

And is there a schematic of the 21BHS somewhere? I don't recall seeing a detailed one in the owner's manual.

[quote source="/post/381/thread" timestamp="1396457668" author="@fasteddieb"]Quick question...

...when the trailer is running 12v (no shore power) is it capable of running down the battery of the tow vehicle if left plugged in?

And is there a schematic of the 21BHS somewhere? I don't recall seeing a detailed one in the owner's manual.[/quote][font size="3"][font face="arial"]That depends on the TV. MOST new TVs are wired such that the 12V line is disconnected from the 7 pin connector when the engine is off to prevent this. Therefore the TT will draw only from its own onboard batteries. I say most, but it's best to check with a meter while the TV engine is off to make sure. This can be done at the 7 pin Bergman on the rear of the TV.[/font][/font] [font size="3"]Of course, if the TV running lights are left on the trailer running lights will add to the discharge of the TV battery.[/font]

Thanks - I will check that.

Played around just a bit this afternoon, kinda quick and dirty.

I pushed the hitch in all the way and scored where the new hole will go. Probably get it drilled tomorrow.

Measured the bumper height of the Flex, with just a few tools in the back:

Rear: 24 3/8"
Front: 22 3/8"

Hooked up the trailer with the two links hanging.

Remeasured:

Rear: 22 3/4" (1.625" drop)
Front: 22 3/4" (.375" raise)

So that confirms the visible sag seen in the photos.

Tried shortening the chains one link:


(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7201/13589284513_4c6162c193.jpg)



Remeasured:

Rear: 23 1/2" (.875" drop)
Front: 22 1/4" (.125" drop)

Car looked a lot flatter than before:


(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7110/13589281243_9df96332ff.jpg)



Note, there was about a 1/2" drop in height from the hangar to the asphalt. Doesn't seem like that should make a huge difference.

Did not change the tilt. It looks fairly straightforward to do so:


(https://farm3.staticflickr.com/2842/13589620424_77683678e2.jpg)



That arrangement with the adjusting wheel looks different from the setup shown in the EAZ-Lift installation manual.

Anyway, am I on the right track?

This picture concerns me a bit:

[quote source="/post/383/thread" timestamp="1396474309" author="@fasteddieb"]
(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7201/13589284513_4c6162c193.jpg)Of course I'm not familiar with your specific hitch, so please take the manufacturer's recommendations over my gut reaction.

OK. I think I'm making progress...

Picked up the hitch from the shop with the new hole drilled.

Dismantled the hitch, inverted the shank and remounted it using holes to lower it. That moved it down from 18 1/4" to 16 1/2". I also increased the rearward tilt from 4º to 8.5º.

Handy that I have a propeller pitch setting device that worked well here:


(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5030/13632371595_44778ffb65.jpg)



I first tried two links hanging, which took a lot of effort. It looked like this:


(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7060/13632732324_5e6a9e9cdc.jpg)



With them in place, the Flex measured:

22" F
23 3/4" R

And the trailer seemed almost perfectly level.

I then tried just one link hanging. It looked like this:


(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7383/13632733844_2b64b74f82.jpg)



Much less stress on the chains, and the Flex measured:

22 3/8" F
23" R

And the trailer was about 1º nose down.

I feel like I'm on the right track, and need to drive the rig to test it before making any more changes.

Thoughts?

I was going to take a peek at the manual to see what they recommend, but the manufacturer doesn't seem to have any record of this product. Is it discontinued? The only thing I see is the "Trekker"

Here's a link to the installation instructions:

http://manuals.adventurerv.net/Eaz-Lift-Weight-Distribution-Hitch-Elite-Instructions.pdf

I wonder why Camco doesn't have this on their own website  :-/... Anyways, It looks pretty close to their recommendations. The only thing I would change is on Page 4: "To find correct location on trailer frame for Quick Hook-Up Bracket, hold chain straight up"

How hard is it to move the propane tanks?

[quote source="/post/445/thread" timestamp="1396911965" author="@tinkeringtechie"]Anyways, It looks pretty close to their recommendations. The only thing I would change is on Page 4: "To find correct location on trailer frame for Quick Hook-Up Bracket, hold chain straight up"

How hard is it to move the propane tanks?

[/quote]I looked the other day and it does not seem too hard.

It seems like when Sunny Island RV installed the hitch they relocated the tanks a little forward:


(https://farm3.staticflickr.com/2822/13715179735_7b31c5688a.jpg)



One hose is already stretched a bit. I would have to move them back enough to move the saddles in front of them, if I can do so without interfering with the battery. It does look like the battery has some room to move back as well, if need be.

Looking at the photo below, Plan B could be to just raise the tanks about 3" or 4" on spacers to let the saddles move under the tanks.


(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7201/13589284513_4c6162c193.jpg)



I did attempt to measure my tongue weight, but my bathroom scale topped out a 280 lbs, already in excess of the 250 lbs. tongue weight listed for the BHS. FLEXIE's Class III hitch is rated at 450 lbs. Still, moving weight back could only help there.

I am not going to mess with any of this until after the SpringStream Rally in Hiawassee this weekend (our first outing). I want to see the effect of the new ball height and hitch tilt before throwing any additional variables in.

Too bad they didn't use square u-bolts, it's a shame to have to poke holes every time you move it. It's probably a good idea to try it out before making any other changes. The chain angle is more the perfectionist in me rather than imminent danger. On a related note, that hole where the tanks used to be makes me twitch a little bit  :-S (I'd plug it with something...).

As for the tongue weight, even if their 250lb estimate is correct (which is probably a bit optimistic), your tanks and battery add about 130lbs to the tongue (probably 100lbs ends up on the ball). Don't forget that your hitch and sway control add around 90lbs. So you're at approximately 440lbs of hitch weight without any cargo in the storage compartment.  

Situation much improved.

Details and photos in the morning.

OK, you won!

I went out to the hangar yesterday to futz with things.

First instinct was to just raise the propane tanks, and I played with a 4x4 as a spacer.

Then my hangar neighbor stopped and suggested swapping the propane tanks and the battery. And viola!


(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3748/13736151545_73a3c94a46.jpg)



I did have to drill two small holes for self-tapping screws, and after the photo I fabricated two aluminum brackets to help stabilize the tanks laterally. The battery cables had enough slack for the relocation as is.

I will put a dab of clear silicone in each abandoned hole.

One downside - it moved the Husky ball mount closer to the hitch, making it look like right turns will "pinch" it sooner:


(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3795/13736152755_c8988e6d7b.jpg)



I thought moving it back even an inch or so would make a difference, so I had a friend cut off about 1" from the left side with a torch and drill new holes on that side. While he was at it I had him cut off the extraneous bottom inch or so.

Plan today is to get it out and test it, both on the ramp at the airport to check turn radius, and a bit on the highway to be sure we're in the ballpark.

I'll report back how it goes.

Looks much better and makes me wonder why they don't set it up that way to begin with.

[quote source="/post/469/thread" timestamp="1397064868" author="@tinkeringtechie"]Looks much better and makes me wonder why they don't set it up that way to begin with.[/quote][font size="3"][font face="arial"]If you opt for dual batteries including room for two cases the rack is about the same width as the two propane tanks. Almost mox-nix and affects ease of propane access and turning radius limits[/font][/font].

[quote source="/post/467/thread" timestamp="1397043909" author="@fasteddieb"]
One downside - it moved the Husky ball mount closer to the hitch, making it look like right turns will "pinch" it sooner:
[/quote]
This would probably only happen backing up and sway control is annoying (and unnecessary) while backing up anyways. I'd suggest getting in the habit of taking it off before backing up.

[quote source="/post/470/thread" timestamp="1397072358" author="@charliem"][font size="3"][font face="arial"]If you opt for dual batteries including room for two cases the rack is about the same width as the two propane tanks. Almost mox-nix and affects ease of propane access and turning radius limits[/font][/font].
[/quote]

Good point, though in this case it seems to be ideal.

Got everything pretty much finalized today.

Even with the Husky mount trimmed down, I was still concerned about right turns taking it to its limits:


(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7356/13747178785_b19767e864.jpg)



Don't think I needed to be, it will still turn pretty sharp without using up all the travel:


(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3711/13747241724_fed5b5b661.jpg)
(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7316/13747238504_0202360059.jpg)
(https://farm3.staticflickr.com/2916/13747247794_819c7e6728.jpg)
(https://farm3.staticflickr.com/2924/13746860905_3dda162a53.jpg)Any ideas?

How long is your extension cord?

[font size="3"][font face="arial"]I'm too tired to do a rigorous analysis tonight, but I'd check the polarity wiring of the socket in the well house. I'm not sure but if it is miswired it might pop when you plug the camper in. If you don't have a handy little AC circuit tester you can use a voltmeter. You should measure approx. 120V from the hot (short blade) to both neutral (long blade) and ground; zero volts from the neutral (long blade) to ground. Of course, check the extension cord and all plugs/sockets involved.
[/font][/font]

I think it's a 50' extension cord, but fairly heavy duty.

I will check out the pump house wiring tomorrow. I did it myself and piggybacked off a 110v circuit that feeds our well pump. Its not inconceivable I may have wired something backwards.

[font size="3"][font face="arial"]Eddie,

One more thought. You mentioned a 120V circuit in the pump house. Most residential or rural pumps I'm familiar with run on 240V so I'll ask: is the 120V outlet connected to a true 3 wire 120V line or was it tapped onto an existing 240V line? If the latter, was it a three wire 240V line or a four wire 240V circuit? Most 240V circuits are Hot1, Hot2 and ground. The neutral is not carried through which means any 120V load will cause current to flow in the ground wire. That will cause grief for a GFCI. Just a sleepy thought. Your Camplite looks good sitting in the woods.
[/font][/font]

Something I'll have to check - I know just enough about electricity to be dangerous.

To the best if my recollection, my pump is 240v and there are three wires running from the house. I piggybacked onto them at the pressure controller on the tank that serves the garden. I did run a ground stake for the ground.

Later today I'll take some photos. The outlet and light for the pump house have always worked, powering all sorts of things, up to a radial saw, and I've never had the GFCI trip before.

Any problem hooking up my Honda generator to see if that faults? That would certainly narrow down the issue to the outlet in the pump house.

[font size="3"][font face="arial"]The fact that the outlet has worked in the past certainly points to proper operation. There could be a ground leakage path in the trailer, but it's hard to troubleshoot by remote control. The generator should be OK, but does it have a GFCI protected outlet? Without one you may not get much info from it. You might try turning off all 120V breakers in the trailer and seeing what happens. If all OK, try turning the main back on. If that's OK proceed one breaker at a time until you isolate the bug. Also, do you have another GFCI outlet you can plug into, even if it's further away? Without the A/C or micro running you can use a much longer and smaller extension cord for troubleshooting. Let me know.
[/font][/font]

Latest update...

Hooked up to Honda Generator - don't know if it has a GFCI or not, but it worked fine, and its good to see the battery charger is working (voltage shot up to 13.7 or so from around 12) and all the outlets test OK.

But ran a long extension cord up to another outlet, and again the GFCI tripped immediately.

Calling LL now for advice - will let you know what they say.

[quote source="/post/492/thread" timestamp="1397145631" author="@fasteddieb"]Latest update...

Hooked up to Honda Generator - don't know if it has a GFCI or not, but it worked fine, and its good to see the battery charger is working (voltage shot up to 13.7 or so from around 12) and all the outlets test OK.

But ran a long extension cord up to another outlet, and again the GFCI tripped immediately.

Calling LL now for advice - will let you know what they say.[/quote][font size="3"][font face="arial"]Ummm. Houston ([/font][font face="arial"]Wakarusa), we have a problem.......
[/font][/font]

 I'll second Charlie's suggestion to turn off all breakers and turn them back on one by one. Seems like the most logical way to determine the source of the leak.

Thanks - on hold with Livin'Lite...

...well, the guy in warranty is on vacation until the 15th. Suggested calling Jack at ext 120, which went to voice mail.

Will go do the circuit breaker thing right now and report back.

All circuit breakers in the main panel off and it still trips the GFCI.

Disconnected cable entirely and doesn't, so I don't think its the cable.

My main concern is something wrong enough to charge the trailer chassis, of course, when hooked to shore power without GFCI.

Will try LL customer service again.


edited to add: Type "Travel trailer trips GFCI" into Google. Clearly a common problem with lots of reasons suggested.

[font size="3"][font face="arial"]If all is as you say, all breakers including the main are off, and all is OK with the extension cord plugged into the house but unplugged at the trailer, there is a problem in the trailer. Although I can't figure what it might be.
[/font][/font]

Quick note.

I was at Home Depot and for about $8.50 picked up a little GFCI tester.

The three lights illuminate off/yellow/yellow, which indicated correct wiring on both outlets I tried.

[font size="3"][font face="arial"]OK. That seems to point to the trailer wiring between the 30 Amp connector and the power converter. Not sure what could be wrong, but it all points that way. Especially since the problem still exists with the main breaker off. The next step would be to physically disconnect the converter box. Time to call LL. How close are you to competent RV shop, not necessarily an LL dealer?

Where you have the trailer parked, is it electrically insulated from ground? The tires will insulate the axles, but is the tongue jack on wood or bare ground? Any water or sewer lines hooked up? I'm looking for a ground path.

And the little tester? A useful tool for the campgrounds.
[/font][/font]

Do you have a multimeter? If so, check these on the trailer (while disconnected):

[ul type="disc"][li]resistance between frame and ground (should be extremely low)[/li][li]resistance between hot and ground (should be open/no value)[/li][li]resistance between neutral and ground (should be open/no value)
[/li][/ul][div]
If any of those are different, then it should give you an idea of what's going on.[/div]

When we disconnect from our site tomorrow, I'll check it out.

As far as the hitch goes...

...on the drive over to Hiawasee, the whole setup felt far "jouncier" than before, kinda bouncy and too rigid over highway expansion joints.

May try only one link hanging on the trip home and will report back if that helps at all.

On the way to SpringStream Friday I found I took things a little too far.

As a reminder, on my Flex I had lowered the ball, tilted it back a little and shortened the shank about 3" and things looked great with 2 links hanging.

But...

...as soon as we hit the road, things did not feel right. Everything was too stiff and "jouncy", and some expansion joints south of Blairsville, GA got the whole rig bouncing in a coupled fashion - quite uncomfortable.

So today, hooking up for the drive home, I left only one link hanging, assuming that the chains being too tight was the problem.

WOW! What a difference! I think I found the sweet spot!!! Much more compliant over the bumps, while not feeling loose or swaying at all.

As many advised, there's certainly some trial and error involved, but I sure like how it felt today.

[quote source="/post/507/thread" timestamp="1397275747" author="@tinkeringtechie"]Do you have a multimeter? If so, check these on the trailer (while disconnected):

[ul type="disc"][li]resistance between frame and ground (should be extremely low)[/li][li]resistance between hot and ground (should be open/no value)[/li][li]resistance between neutral and ground (should be open/no value)
[/li][/ul][div]
If any of those are different, then it should give you an idea of what's going on.[/div]

[/quote]At the hangar, the GFCI popped there as well, even with NO extension cord, and with all the breakers off.

Just thrashed around a bit today. Frame and ground had little resistance. The only breaker that seemed to affect any of the below readings was the microwave.

Do any of these readings tell a tale (the other end of the cable was plugged into the CampLite)?


(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3673/13855847845_d10160f370.jpg)
(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3714/13855878853_a6486c248f.jpg)
(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7062/13855840995_e14097318b.jpg)
(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7092/13855836815_a8b2a156bb.jpg)

The first and second picture look like the same contact points, but with different values. Which one was correct? If it's the first (which looks like 40ohms) that means your neutral and ground are connected somewhere with relatively little resistance. This configuration will still work, and shouldn't pose much threat (neutral is also grounded by the utility company), but the GFCI is basically comparing hot current to neutral current, and if any of it ends up going to ground then it will trip.

Like I said, I was thrashing a bit. I think one is with the microwave breaker on, and one off.

I'll check with the friend that was helping me.

What does that meter show for open/infinite resistance?

[font size="3"][font face="arial"]For another data point I measured my 2014 2RBS. Measurements were taken with a Radio Shack Micronta 22-182 Digital Multimeter at the trailer power connector with all breakers off:

Neutral to Ground[span]    [/span]open >20M ohms
Neutral to Hot [span]    [/span][span]    [/span][span] open >20M ohms[/span]
Hot to Ground[span]    [/span][span]    [/span][span]  open >20M ohms
Ground to Chassis[span]    [/span]0.2 ohms

The meter reads >20M ohms with leads open and 0.1 ohm with leads shorted.

Occasionally I did get a less than open reading [/span][/font][/font][font size="3"][font face="arial"][span]from Neutral to Ground [/span][/font][/font][font size="3"][font face="arial"][span]on the 20M ohm range which indicates there is some capacitance from the neutral to ground or chassis that is charging on the high resistance range. It went away with reconnection or switching to the 2M ohm range.

Picture 1 is disturbing in that it indicates a short from N to G. Pictures 3 and 4 could be the microwave clock/control board if the micro breaker was on and there was also an N to G short. Bottom line is there should be a complete open circuit from N to G, N to H and H to G with all breakers off. Anything else indicates a problem.
[/span][/font][/font]

I'm going to go check further with an analog meter. Probably video it.

Can anyone tell me which prong is which? I know (think?) the one with the angle (lower right here) is ground:


(http://www.modmyrv.com/wp-content/gallery/mod-11-image-gallery/marinco-receptacle-socket-1.JPG)

[font size="3"][font face="arial"]Fasteddie,

You are correct. The prong with the angle is ground. Looking at the connector as in your picture the hot is left of the ground and appears gold or brass colored in the picture. The neutral is silver (white)  and to the right of ground. My connector has no such convenient coloring so I had to determine polarity with a meter. As a caution, with an analog meter you may see some instantaneous and short lived reading where you expect totally open. This is normal and due to [/font][/font][font size="3"][font face="arial"]capacitance [/font][/font][font size="3"][font face="arial"]charging  (engineer speak for it's OK).
[/font][/font]

Thanks! That was actually a stock photo I found online - don't recall if mine is color coded. I plan on labeling men for future reference, which is why I asked.

Headed to the hangar shortly and will attempt to video what I get.

[font size="3"]One other set of measurements: Check between each connector pin and and an aluminum camper frame member. The ground pin should read near zero ohms to the frame and the other two pins should read open or infinity with all breakers off. Anything else indicates a problem that could be mis-wireing or faulty equipment. Either way it needs to be fixed. Tinkeringtechie (Travis) noted that some leakage to ground would trip the GFCI, but would still work in campground hook ups. That's correct, but I sure would want to know what's causing the problem. Could lead to other personnel safety, fire, or future equipment failure issues.
[/font]

As an aside...

1) Everything worked out this weekend hooked up to 30A service at the Hiawassee campground.

2) No one got electrocuted - yet!

[quote source="/post/540/thread" timestamp="1397568749" author="@charliem"][font size="3"]Tinkeringtechie (Travis) noted that some leakage to ground would trip the GFCI, but would still work in campground hook ups. That's correct, but I sure would want to know what's causing the problem. Could lead to other personnel safety, fire, or future equipment failure issues.
[/font][/quote]I should have also mentioned that although it's not dangerous under normal conditions, connecting it to a mis-wired pedestal (hot switched with neutral) could cause the frame to be hot...  ??? So definitely something you want to fix, and in the meantime make sure to test everything you connect it to.

[quote source="/post/543/thread" timestamp="1397573648" author="@tinkeringtechie"][quote source="/post/540/thread" timestamp="1397568749" author="@charliem"][font size="3"]Tinkeringtechie (Travis) noted that some leakage to ground would trip the GFCI, but would still work in campground hook ups. That's correct, but I sure would want to know what's causing the problem. Could lead to other personnel safety, fire, or future equipment failure issues.
[/font][/quote]I should have also mentioned that although it's not dangerous under normal conditions, connecting it to a mis-wired pedestal (hot switched with neutral) could cause the frame to be hot...  ??? So definitely something you want to fix, and in the meantime make sure to test everything you connect it to.[/quote][font size="3"][font face="arial"]Yeah, Bro. Bad karma on that one  :)[/font][/font]

See what you think:

[a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NKj-RW5Zm24"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NKj-RW5Zm24[/a]

Looks like ground and neutral are connected somewhere before the breakers. Once you flip on the breakers, hot and neutral are effectively connected (as a load) so they all appear connected. I'd pull the converter and do the same test on the back with the external connection removed.

***DISCLAIMER*** only do this if you're a qualified electrician.

***REALITY*** go ahead with caution, but leave it disconnected from shore power and don't change anything that you're not absolutely sure about.

 Oh, and take pictures  :) I want to see what it looks like behind there.

[font size="3"][font face="arial"]I agree with Tinkeringtechie. That explains the symptoms and does need to be fixed. It could be as simple as the ground and neutral are mis-wired to a common bus, but it needs to be fixed. The connection between hot and neutral with breakers on ca[/font][/font][font size="3"][font face="arial"]n[/font][/font][font size="3"][font face="arial"] be due to the microwave electronics, the fridge electronics, or the water heater if it's electric and switched on. Let us know.

And my complements to Fasteddieb on his picture and video prowess. He's got that down pat.
[/font][/font]

Thanks, guys!

Big thing to remember is that I'm still under warranty. I think the best thing to do is to inform Livin'Lite and see how they want to handle it.

I called them last week, but their main guy was out until today. I'll try again and let you know what they say.

That's probably the safest course of action. My curiosity would get the better of me... and you know what they say about curiosity and cats  x_x

Here's another bit of weirdness...

...on the Livin'Lite site they list the 21BHS as 3,499 Dry Weight, and GVWR of 5,000 lbs., leaving a Load Capacity of 1,501 lbs. All makes sense.

The Certificate Of Origin I just received shows 3,350 Shipping Weight and 7,000 lb. GVWR.

Calling the dealer in IL was not of much help. He said the 7,000 lbs CVWR is what his shipping invoice said.

It's only an issue because I believe the tag fee in GA is based on weight, and I'd hate to pay more than necessary.

Thoughts?

Looks like a flat $12 to me:

[a href="http://motor.etax.dor.ga.gov/motor/RegistrationSection/forms/pdf/MV_Schedule_of_Tags_and_Fees.pdf"]http://motor.etax.dor.ga.gov/motor/RegistrationSection/forms/pdf/MV_Schedule_of_Tags_and_Fees.pdf[/a]

Cool.

Funny, when I just called Fannin County they said weight was a factor, but if I could show the certificate was wrong they'd make an allowance.

When I go back to the hangar later to turn on the space heaters (26º forecast and I do not want to winterize again) I'll check the data plate. It says there, right?

[quote source="/post/551/thread" timestamp="1397581804" author="@fasteddieb"]Here's another bit of weirdness...

...on the Livin'Lite site they list the 21BHS as 3,499 Dry Weight, and GVWR of 5,000 lbs., leaving a Load Capacity of 1,501 lbs. All makes sense.

The Certificate Of Origin I just received shows 3,350 Shipping Weight and 7,000 lb. GVWR.

Calling the dealer in IL was not of much help. He said the 7,000 lbs CVWR is what his shipping invoice said.

It's only an issue because I believe the tag fee in GA is based on weight, and I'd hate to pay more than necessary.

Thoughts?[/quote]The tag on my 21BHS says 7,000 pounds, but the web site/brochure says 5,000.  The load capacity of the tires (ST tires, load range D) is 1750 pounds.  Multiply that by 4 and you get 7,000 pounds.  Each axle has a capacity of 3500 pounds.  So, it does have a load capacity of 7,000 pounds, but perhaps taking towing dynamics into account, they lower it to 5,000 pounds.  Even with a dry weight of 3500 pounds, that is still 1500 pounds of payload.  I don't think I'll meet that.

[font size="3"][font face="arial"]Confusion because LL is not too rigorous with their weights. The certificate of origin appears based on some generic number from LL. The 21RBS is advertised at 3350 and the 21BHS at 3499. [/font][/font][font size="3"][font face="arial"]Neither reflects options added.[/font][/font][font size="3"][font face="arial"]That makes some sense since the BHS has heavy bunks, but I think they use some common or generic data when filling out the Cert. I don't think the cert weight reflects an actual factory as built measurement.  The advertised 5000 GVWR is apparently old because each axle is rated at 3500 per actual labels on them. That plus the tongue weight adds up to slightly more than 7000. I have no idea what the shipping weight on the invoice means. I saw a couple at another dealer that had 3500 shipping and 7000 GVWR. I go with 7000 GVWR and 3500 dry weight with options. If your tax office goes by the cert of origin, which is all they have, you're probably OK or getting some benefit from a lower shipping weight. Good news is the 7000 GVWR is real. Load up on more beer and ice cream  :D

And don't look for an as built weight sticker. It ain't there. All other RV manufacturers except LL have one.
[/font][/font]

Well, this is on my trailer tongue and confirms what the Certificate of Origin says:


(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7329/13882919954_8cdf14cb49.jpg)



Don at Livin' Lite said it was normal for their trailers not to be able to use GFCI outlets. I referred him to this thread.

[quote source="/post/559/thread" timestamp="1397604865" author="@fasteddieb"]Don at Livin' Lite said it was normal for their trailers not to be able to use GFCI outlets. I referred him to this thread.[/quote]That's a bit worrisome.

I had a realization though... breakers only disconnect circuits from the hot side, the neutral always stays connected. So your neutral/ground fault is not necessarily between the panel and the exterior outlet. It could be a device or outlet in the trailer. If you decide to tackle this yourself, you'd need to disconnect each neutral circuit and test them individually. Before you do that make sure that it isn't a device that you added inside.

[quote source="/post/560/thread" timestamp="1397606128" author="@tinkeringtechie"][quote source="/post/559/thread" timestamp="1397604865" author="@fasteddieb"]Don at Livin' Lite said it was normal for their trailers not to be able to use GFCI outlets. I referred him to this thread.[/quote]That's a bit worrisome...
[span style="font-size:10pt;"] Before you do that make sure that it isn't a device that you added inside.[/span]
[/quote]The only things I've added are a Lighting cable plugged into the radio USB port for charging iDevices, and a 12v splitter plugged into the TV outlet and with a voltmeter plugged into that. Other than that, completely stock. Did not think of those causing an issue.

Those sound pretty innocent to me... especially since none of them are 120V

[quote source="/post/560/thread" timestamp="1397606128" author="@tinkeringtechie"][quote source="/post/559/thread" timestamp="1397604865" author="@fasteddieb"]Don at Livin' Lite said it was normal for their trailers not to be able to use GFCI outlets. I referred him to this thread.[/quote]That's a bit worrisome.

I had a realization though... breakers only disconnect circuits from the hot side, the neutral always stays connected. So your neutral/ground fault is not necessarily between the panel and the exterior outlet. It could be a device or outlet in the trailer. If you decide to tackle this yourself, you'd need to disconnect each neutral circuit and test them individually. Before you do that make sure that it isn't a device that you added inside.[/quote][font size="3"][font face="arial"]I agree the N to G short could be an appliance even with the breakers open, but why would a GFCI trip when there was no current flowing in the hot line? The GFCI trips when all current flowing in the hot side does not return on the neutral. With the breakers open no current can flow in the hot side and no current should return on the neutral. And I agree Don's answer about the GFCI outlets doesn't make sense and is not good.

Fasteddieb: The sticker on your trailer confirms the GVWR and GAWR values, but not the trailer empty weight. Most other trailers show their exact weight as they leave the factory.
[/font][/font]

[quote source="/post/563/thread" timestamp="1397612428" author="@charliem"][font size="3"][font face="arial"]I agree the N to G short could be an appliance even with the breakers open, but why would a GFCI trip when there was no current flowing in the hot line? The GFCI trips when all current flowing in the hot side does not return on the neutral. With the breakers open no current can flow in the hot side and no current should return on the neutral.
[/font][/font][/quote]

This is only a guess, but depending on the length of the run, the neutral side can actually have non-zero voltage. It's grounded at the utility side, so if it's fairly far from there and it has other nearby loads (like the pump house) the neutral can have a small voltage. That may be enough to leak to ground through the trailer and trip the GFCI. Just a theory, but it could be tested with a multimeter as well.

I unplugged my two 12v items, and it made no difference on the ground faulting at the hangar.

I then fired up the Honda generator and used it for shore power.

I wanted to test the outlets in the trailer.

Does this normal indication tell us anything?


[img src="https://farm3.staticflickr.com/2916/13904341135_61b0be6ab0.jpg"]

Oh, and in with the spare keys for my trailer was this:


[img src="https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3718/13904753224_967c2116de.jpg"]

Anybody know what those little black things are?

Unfortunately that tester doesn't have a case for your situation. A neutral/ground fault is nearly impossible to test for once the circuit is live.

I don't have a clue about the little black things... Some kind of bumper or riser? I'm picking up my 21BHS on Friday, so if I also have them I'll ask the tech.

Thanks again.

I'm guessing the little black things have something to do with the TV - there was also a bubble-packed stand for it.

Love to hear how your delivery goes. Take lots of pictures! I'll be very curious as to how your new rig handles GFCI's!

[quote source="/post/570/thread" timestamp="1397691771" author="@tinkeringtechie"]Unfortunately that tester doesn't have a case for your situation. A neutral/ground fault is nearly impossible to test for once the circuit is live.

I don't have a clue about the little black things... Some kind of bumper or riser? I'm picking up my 21BHS on Friday, so if I also have them I'll ask the tech.[/quote][font size="3"][font face="arial"]I agree re the tester. I had the thought last night[/font][/font] [font size="3"][font face="arial"]there is one more thing you can do if you just can't wait for the factory guys. First, did you get the 120V option on the water heater? If not the only appliances connected to the 120V system are the micro, the fridge, and te power converter. The micro and fridge are  plug-in connections. The fridge is the easiest to disconnect: just open the lower vent outside, find the black plug, and pull it. You will have to remove the microwave from its cabinet and pull the plug behind. Then recheck the H to N with an ohmmeter and all breakers off. [/font][/font][font size="3"][font face="arial"] [/font]If the short still exists the only possibilities are a miswire or a faulty converter. [/font][font size="3"][font face="arial"]If you did get the AC/GAS water heater it is hardwired and you might as well pull the power converter to see what's behind it.[/font][/font]

[font size="3"][font face="arial"]But if you can wait a while, Tinkeringtechie is developing a microprocessor controller[/font] that you just set on the bed and it will diagnose any problem and fix it with a push of a button  ;)  ;)[/font]

[font size="3"]On the little black things I don't recall if I got them or not. They could be left over from the radio or micro installation such as feet.[/font]

I think my water heater is propane only.

I can try to unplug some of the other stuff and report back.

[quote source="/post/571/thread" timestamp="1397692497" author="@fasteddieb"]Love to hear how your delivery goes. Take lots of pictures! I'll be very curious as to how your new rig handles GFCI's![/quote]Will do. I haven't had such great luck with this dealer so far, so I'll be crossing my fingers that delivery goes well. I'll be staying one night on the way home in the new rig to put it through its paces and will report back any issues that might come up.

All of my garage and exterior outlets are on a GFCI, so I'll have no choice but to find out.

Can anyone point me to where the 12v converter is?

I'm sure I could trace wiring back to it, but it would help me out as far as seeing if that's the issue.

[font size="3"][font face="arial"]The power converter is a module housed in the power panel which should be a Progressive Dynamics model 4045KA. The panel is the brown box that contains the circuit breakers.

 http://www.progressivedyn.com/pdfs/110145%20English%20Only.pdf

The link will give you the installation/user instructions and some drawings. However, if you've tried unplugging the fridge and micro and the N-G short still exists you need a qualified expert to go further.  And you're under warranty. I think it's time to get back with LL and arrange to have the trailer looked at. You're close to Atlanta and Chattanooga so there must be places available. 
[/font][/font]

Thanks.

Curious to see if tinkeringtechie's does the same thing.

If so, maybe they DO all do that.

If not, then I have an isolated issue to address.

[quote source="/post/579/thread" timestamp="1397786539" author="@fasteddieb"]Can anyone point me to where the 12v converter is?

I'm sure I could trace wiring back to it, but it would help me out as far as seeing if that's the issue.[/quote]It is below the refrigerator, to the left of the heater.

[quote source="/post/581/thread" timestamp="1397791757" author="@fasteddieb"]Thanks.

Curious to see if tinkeringtechie's does the same thing.

If so, maybe they DO all do that.

If not, then I have an isolated issue to address.[/quote]I just tested mine with a multimeter and it matches Charlie's findings: ground is only connected to the frame.

Tested it on a GFCI circuit yet?

I went out to the hangar and disconnected the refrigerator.

1) No change at 30A connector.

2) Refrigerator by itself did not trip GFCI.

Now, I just have to convince Livin' Lite there's an issue, and then come up with a shop to look at it that's not too far and won't take too long.

I did test it on a GFCI yesterday and it did not trip. I think that should be enough to at least have a shop take a look at it.

Can anyone advise how to disconnect/unplug the converter? Is it part of the unit containing the breakers and fuses?

[quote source="/post/619/thread" timestamp="1398093836" author="@fasteddieb"]Can anyone advise how to disconnect/unplug the converter? Is it part of the unit containing the breakers and fuses?[/quote]It's hard-wired, so it can't be disconnected very easily. It's usually right behind or next to the DC fuses (wherever the vents are).

How are things going with the Neutral/Ground issue? Did you get any traction with LivinLite?

I'm towing it to the dealer in Buford, GA on Friday to deal with it. Will need to leave it for a while.

Also a few other teething problems - nothing major. Binding front storage door, one broken window support strut (Livin' Lite sent me a new one), possible issue with the cable switch/reception.

Maybe point out the rusty piece of steel scrap holding up the black water pipe.

That's about it so far.

[font size="3"][font face="arial"]Eddie,

How are doing with the neutral/ground problem? What did they find or not find? Did they fix anything or just brush you off, or too early to tell?
[/font][/font]

No word back yet - I'll call them tomorrow.

I just spoke with Matt at Southland RV. They've ordered me a new storage door and are troubleshooting the cable switch.

He does say that having the neutral and ground "looped" is common to virtually all small trailers, and that all will trip a GFCI. He said companies actually sell a separate GFCI device because of that.

He said he discussed that "looped" neutral/ground wiring with Don at Livin'Lite and he confirmed that was normal - as he had told me prior. That that is just the way they are wired at the factory.

I did explain that some on this forum said their grounds and neutrals were definitely not connected, and that they did not trip GFCI's.

He said that after work today he might have time to read this thread and post here about his take on it.

Anyway, does anyone know of a schematic diagram for these trailers? It sure seems like one would exist somewhere and could assist in this discussion.

I don't think the "smallness" of a trailer should determine whether they wire it correctly. I was just working with the breaker panel/converter over the weekend and at no point do the ground and neutral connect. It's just like in your home but more compact. Here's a picture of the guts:

[attachment id="103" thumbnail="1"]

That bottom right bar with the white wires is where you would isolate the issue. If you disconnected each white wire and tested them individually for continuity to ground you'd find your culprit. Once again... I'm not an electrician and I'm gathering neither are you, so do this at your own risk.

[font size="3"][font face="arial"]Eddie,

The easy question first. I know of no electrical or plumbing schematic for these trailers. One hopefully exists at LL but it would change so often as to make it almost useless to the outside world.

Now for the harder stuff. I definitely think there is a problem with your trailer and it's not "normal". The National Electric Code now requires GFCIs on many residential circuits of 20 Amps or less just to prevent this very problem. The short you are experiencing will defeat the safety provided by the GFCI. Fortunately your GFCIs trip before you get in trouble. [/font][/font][font size="3"][font face="arial"] Intentional connections between neutral and ground other than at the household power entry point are specifically prohibited by the Code.[/font][/font][font size="3"][font face="arial"] GFCIs are designed to detect and protect against unintentional connections, such as people.Thirty Amp and above outlets do not presently require GFCIs, but I think it's only a matter of time.

The fact that there are at least two other LL 21s on this forum that do not have this problem should be ample evidence that it is not "normal". With your problem existing with all appliances unplugged I suspect either a faulty converter/WH/AC or a miswire. The fact that other trailers with the same appliances and converter do not exhibit the problem indicates there is no generic fault. Something is wrong on your unit and I suspect a wiring error. I is easy to wire all neutrals and grounds together to a common buss an it's wrong. Please keep on this and keep us informed. Sounds like your dealer is willing to listen but LL isn't. Not a good situation.
[/font][/font]

[quote source="/post/907/thread" timestamp="1399575719" author="@tinkeringtechie"]I don't think the "smallness" of a trailer should determine whether they wire it correctly. I was just working with the breaker panel/converter over the weekend and at no point do the ground and neutral connect. It's just like in your home but more compact. Here's a picture of the guts:



That bottom right bar with the white wires is where you would isolate the issue. If you disconnected each white wire and tested them individually for continuity to ground you'd find your culprit. Once again... I'm not an electrician and I'm gathering neither are you, so do this at your own risk.
[/quote][font face="arial" size="3"]Great picture. I'm guessing the problem is right there. One or more wires are connected to the wrong buss. I'm glad to see the proper engineering from Progressive Dynamics.
[/font]

I did just come up with an RVIA document on the subject:

[a href="http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=5&ved=0CFUQFjAE&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.irv2.com%2Fforums%2Fattachment.php%3Fattachmentid%3D5630%26d%3D1285187648&ei=XdtrU97zLKK1sATQxIGQAg&usg=AFQjCNEA36p2R_i3I8hhiZg0XB0joYHVqw&sig2=xOGhPYVsNareR7VMvH5Ixw&bvm=bv.66111022,d.cWc"]http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=5&ved=0CFUQFjAE&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.irv2.com%2Fforums%2Fattachment.php%3Fattachmentid%3D5630%26d%3D1285187648&ei=XdtrU97zLKK1sATQxIGQAg&usg=AFQjCNEA36p2R_i3I8hhiZg0XB0joYHVqw&sig2=xOGhPYVsNareR7VMvH5Ixw&bvm=bv.66111022,d.cWc

[/a]I also put a copy in Dropbox: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/22997486/IV-E_IsolatedNeutral2.pdf

From that document:

"Isolated Neutral – Both the supply (black) and neutral (white) wires are current-carrying conductors. Other than the color identifying them, the main difference is the supply conductor is run through a circuit breaker and the neutral conductor terminates in an isolated buss bar. They both conduct the same current, and are treated alike within a circuit. They are run parallel to each other, and each is isolated from the other and from the safety ground (bare or green wire). Inside the distribution panelboard, both supply and neutral conductors are insulated from the enclosure thereby isolating the neutral conductor within the circuit. This isolation is important throughout to avoid a hot-skin or hazardous electrical condition."

"RVs are wired differently than houses and the differences are based on the grounding system. In an RV, the neutral conductor is isolated from the ground conductor. There is no electrical interconnection of the white wire and the bare ground wire in the RV."

[quote source="/post/910/thread" timestamp="1399578016" author="@fasteddieb"]I did just come up with an RVIA document on the subject:


"RVs are wired differently than houses and the differences are based on the grounding system. In an RV, the neutral conductor is isolated from the ground conductor. There is no electrical interconnection of the white wire and the bare ground wire in the RV."

[/quote][font face="arial" size="3"]Good work, Eddie,

The last sentence refers to the single point connection allowed in residential wiring. A single connection is allowed and required between neutral and ground at the power entry point. A similar connection is not allowed in RVs.
[/font]

Will await input from Matt on this.

I'm still pretty convinced there's a problem that needs to be addressed one way or another.

[quote source="/post/911/thread" timestamp="1399578417" author="@charliem"]The last sentence refers to the single point connection allowed in residential wiring. A single connection is allowed and required between neutral and ground at the power entry point. A similar connection is not allowed in RVs.
[/quote]That single point in a house is also where actual grounding occurs. It is literally connected to the earth there.

[font size="3"][font face="arial"]Agree. And I'm going way out on the speculation limb here: Barring a faulty component I would look for a bare ground wire stuck in the neutral buss with the other white wires. The ground wires can pick up a physical ground anywhere such as at outlets, the WH, the A/C, the fridge mounted to the metal trailer frame. All sockets and appliances would still work. If a white wire was stuck in the ground buss the socket or appliance would still work because it would draw return current through ground, but the house GFCI would trip and the fault would probably not show up [/font][/font][font size="3"][font face="arial"]with an ohmmeter [/font][/font][font size="3"][font face="arial"]at the camper power cord. The N-G short does show on an ohmmeter on Eddie's trailer.
[/font][/font]

A little disappointed.

Our trailer has been at Southland since May 2. They say they've ordered a new door for the storage, and that it has still not arrived.

We would go ahead and pick it up, but its about 160 miles round trip to the dealer for them to finish up once they have the door.

Don't know if they drug their feet ordering the door or whether LivinLite's shipping of the door was in a non-expeditious fashion,

Anyway, going with a friend tomorrow to pick up a motor home he's renting for a vacation, and that would have been a perfect time to pick up our trailer.

No further word on the wiring issue. Last I heard they were denying a problem all around. Matt as Southland said he'd post to this thread about his take on it, but that clearly has not happened. With the RVIA standards in hand, I am going to have to insist on a fix somehow, but cannot handle 160 mile round trips. Probably start pulling wires from the converter until the short is found.

Like I said, a little disappointing.

[font size="3"][font face="arial"]Eddie,

I too am disappointed with the response on the electrical problem, but it's not clear whether the disconnect is at LL or your dealer. It took me a while to get past Don at LL on my plumbing problem, but he finally agreed to let me take it to a nearby CampingWorld and they found/replaced a faulty vent. All OK now. I don't know if your dealer is the closest RV shop, but your problem is not rocket science. I still believe it's a simple wiring mistake. Almost any RV shop could find and fix the problem.

If you have to work it yourself Tinkeringtechie and I can talk you through it, but it would help if you could find a friend who is at least familiar with electrical wiring, preferably residential house wiring. Not as hard as helping a non-pilot land a plane from the tower, but a little knowledge would help  :)  Keep us informed and good luck.
[/font][/font]

[quote source="/post/985/thread" timestamp="1400164552" author="@charliem"][font size="3"][font face="arial"]I don't know if your dealer is the closest RV shop, but your problem is not rocket science. I still believe it's a simple wiring mistake. Almost any RV shop could find and fix the problem.

If you have to work it yourself Tinkeringtechie and I can talk you through it, but it would help if you could find a friend who is at least familiar with electrical wiring, preferably residential house wiring. Not as hard as helping a non-pilot land a plane from the tower, but a little knowledge would help  :)  Keep us informed and good luck.
[/font][/font][/quote]The 120V side of things is not that different from residential wiring. So if you have an electrician friend or one that you trust they can probably find the fault as well...

[font size="3"][font face="arial"]Fasteddieb,

See my post under Everything Else, General on Electrical Safety. Maybe more ammo for your battle with LL.
[/font][/font]

Thanks.

Today's update:

Spoke with Matt at Southland RV. Don at LivinLite is refusing to admit there's a problem with my trailer's wiring, so Southland is not in a position to do any more work on it without authorization.

I've already emailed Don with the RVIA Standards document to point out that all three circuits should be isolated from each other, but have not heard back from him.

I also found out Southland ordered me a new storage door on May 8. LivinLite won't be able to ship one until May 23-26, and Matt tells me they will not expedite shipping.

I may call to see what I can get accomplished, but so far we are not at all impressed with after the sale customer support from LivinLite.

I've been following this thread but it's a little (okay a lot) above my knowledge of electrical stuff so I have only a little to add.  I've plugged my 13QBB into a a house plug with a GFCI multiple times, it has never tripped the GFCI.  One thing that did happen to me, and I'm not sure if this could have any impact at all on your issue, is that one time I had a light fixture intermittently work.  I removed the fixture and found a bunch of aluminum shavings, presumably from drilling for the installation of something, had vibrated down from the ceiling and settled into the fixture bridging the contacts on the light.  I don't think this could matter directly because you guys are talking the 120 volt side of things and this would be the 12 volt side but it could be that you've got some metal debris causing an issue.  If that's totally absurd please disregard this post and I'll go back to the high altitude seats and continue to watch.  Good luck

 

Mitch  

[font size="3"][font face="arial"]Fasteddieb,

I'm really sorry you're having such a bad experience with LL customer service. I don't think this is an image Scott wants in the field; I suspect he is not aware of the issues. We continue to believe there is a problem in your unit. Inconvenient at best; dangerous at worst. Both ways it's wrong. There are enough folks here to prove that it isn't normal and doesn't have to be. [/font][/font][font size="3"][font face="arial"]I've suspected Don doesn't know his product, but now I think worse: he doesn't want to. Keep the conversation going and keep us current.

Re the door and it's delivery: that's common all over the RV industry. They're just selling too much too fast to help individual customers. I could tell you my long story with waste tank replacement on another camper, but you don't have enough time  :'(.
[/font][/font]

Thanks, Mitch. Another data point as ammunition.

I'm calling Don at LivinLite tomorrow. I guess to get his refusal to deal with my issue on record.

Since Thor is an RVIA member, and LivinLite is owned by Thor, you'd think that they would want to be sure their products met RVIA standards, if only from a liability standpoint.

To be continued...

[font size="3"][font face="arial"]Eddie,

Since you're so proficient with the pictures maybe a good picture with the ohmmeter sent to LL would help Don understand the problem. Take pix similar to your 4/11/2014 @23:09 post and email to LL. Take a pix showing the probes connected to Ground and Neutral right at the camper connector to eliminate and aspersions cast on the cable. Show the digital meter face on so the reading and the meter range can be seen. Of course it still could be the cable if you haven't already eliminated it. Wouldn't that be something. It is a vendor supplied item to LL. 
[/font][/font]

[font size="3"][font face="arial"]Eddie,

Another thought: Southland is showing several CLs on their lot. Take Matt and an ohmmeter and test some others. Maybe give Matt some ammunition. Of course, beware of what yo might find. They all may be wire wrong  >:(. But I suspect it's random, depending on the day of the week  ;)
[/font][/font]

[quote source="/post/1088/thread" timestamp="1400535007" author="@mitch"]

I've been following this thread but it's a little (okay a lot) above my knowledge of electrical stuff so I have only a little to add.  I've plugged my 13QBB into a a house plug with a GFCI multiple times, it has never tripped the GFCI.  One thing that did happen to me, and I'm not sure if this could have any impact at all on your issue, is that one time I had a light fixture intermittently work.  I removed the fixture and found a bunch of aluminum shavings, presumably from drilling for the installation of something, had vibrated down from the ceiling and settled into the fixture bridging the contacts on the light.  I don't think this could matter directly because you guys are talking the 120 volt side of things and this would be the 12 volt side but it could be that you've got some metal debris causing an issue.  If that's totally absurd please disregard this post and I'll go back to the high altitude seats and continue to watch.  Good luck



Mitch  
[/quote]We just brought home a new 14DBS, and I spent a day opening covers and vacuuming out the metal shavings in every nook and cranny along with various tyrap ends, plastic wrap pieces, etc. I also tywrapped several hoses and wiring to get them away from sharp edges which could cut through over time on the road. As in another travel trailer we owned, production lines don't lend themselves to meticulous assembly practices, so there will be various issues you will find on your own. We have one access door that had only one screw fastened into the frame, the other went into the air. Also found the famous storage compartment loose access door latches. Overall though our 14DBS is a solid trailer and we are glad we purchased it!
As far as the electrical issue, our 120 vac power connector is totally isolated. The ground does not connect to the neutral, and we have it plugged into an outside gfci with no issues.

[quote source="/post/1148/thread" timestamp="1400715566" author="@shortcircuit"]
As far as the electrical issue, our 120 vac power connector is totally isolated. The ground does not connect to the neutral, and we have it plugged into an outside gfci with no issues.
[/quote]Thanks for the additional ammunition!

I think we may have solved the wiring issue.

Matt at Southland RV undertook, on his own, to do more troubleshooting. Says he likes a challenge!

He did exactly what we were going to do - unhook everything from the busses and add back in one at a time until the fault occurred. From that, he determined it was the air conditioning unit.

As best as I understand it, the ground and neutral got "bonded" there. It happened because air conditioners are often mounted onto wood and/or rubber, so that keeping the frame isolated from ground is not an issue, so the neutral grounding at that point is also not an issue*. 

In the case of my trailer, the neutral was connected somehow to the frame of the air conditioner, and at least one of the mounting screws for the air conditioner attached to the aluminum trailer frame, making the connection.

I think. 

In any case, rather than isolate the frame of the air conditioner, he says he "rewired" the air conditioner and it will run fine and I no longer show a short between ground and neutral. So, hopefully...

1) It will no longer trip GFCI circuits, and,

2) We won't get electrocuted if an outlet happens to be wired wrong.

I really hope Don at LivinLite all step up and reimburse Southland for their time troubleshooting this. Its not a good thing if they even give the impression of trying to weasel out of legitimate issues.

Anyway, still awaiting the new storage door but really looking forward to getting the trailer back and camping!


*I think I got the gist of what he was explaining. My bad if I got some of the details wrong.

[quote source="/post/1166/thread" timestamp="1400797461" author="@fasteddieb"]I think we may have solved the wiring issue.

Matt at Southland RV undertook, on his own, to do more troubleshooting. Says he likes a challenge!

As best as I understand it, the ground and neutral got "bonded" there. It happened because air conditioners are often mounted onto wood and/or rubber, so that keeping the frame isolated from ground is not an issue, so the neutral grounding at that point is also not an issue*. 

In the case of my trailer, the neutral was connected somehow to the frame of the air conditioner, and at least one of the mounting screws for the air conditioner attached to the aluminum trailer frame, making the connection.

In any case, rather than isolate the frame of the air conditioner, he says he "rewired" the air conditioner and it will run fine and I no longer show a short between ground and neutral. So, hopefully...

I really hope Don at LivinLite all step up and reimburse Southland for their time troubleshooting this. Its not a good thing if they even give the impression of trying to weasel out of legitimate issues.

[/quote][font size="3"][font face="arial"]This sounds like good news, but us techies would like to better understand the problem in the A/C. If you're close to correct the chassis of the A/C was connected to the neutral. Isolating the A/C from the trailer frame would have left the A/C [/font][font face="arial"]frame without a safety ground and subject to the dangers previously discussed. I'd rather believe the A/C itself had a fault or miswire that Matt found and corrected. Hats off to Matt. You owe him a six pack of his choice. I hope Don pays attention, reimburses Southland, and follows the problem to its source at the factory or Dometic shop. Anyway we're glad you stuck with it and forced the resolution.
[/font][/font]

I will have Matt sketch out schematics of before/after wiring to the A/C, which would in any case help if there are problems down the road.

And Karen and I are both not thrilled with LivinLite's responsiveness.

This was emailed to Don on May 22:

Don,

I've been informed that a new storage door for my 21BHS was ordered on 5/8, and is going to ship soon.

Since I've been without use of my trailer since 5/2, I would really like for you to expedite the shipping so my wife and I can go camping.

In addition, there is now no doubt that my trailer has a wiring problem. The way it is wired is contrary to RVIA standards, and Thor is a member of RVIA. I really need to get it resolved, and I'm sure Thor does not want the liability of a known issue causing possible shock hazard down the road.

Please do whatever you need to to get us back on the road with a properly wired trailer.

Thanks,

Ed Benson

Of note: No response. None. Still don't know when we may be able to pick up and use our trailer, in the shop since May 2.

[quote source="/post/1220/thread" timestamp="1401190198" author="@fasteddieb"]I will have Matt sketch out schematics of before/after wiring to the A/C, which would in any case help if there are problems down the road.

Of note: No response. None. Still don't know when we may be able to pick up and use our trailer, in the shop since May 2.[/quote][font size="3"][font face="arial"]Ed,

I'm very interested in what Matt is able to find and show you. I'm particularly interested in understanding if the error was something Dometic did inside the A/C or LL did in connecting it. Ask Matt to clearly indicate where the cross connection occurred physically. LL has done so much right on this trailer that I want to give them the benefit of the doubt.

Either way there is no excuse for their lack of response and action. It defies common sense and logic for safety and marketing reasons, but unfortunately it seems commonplace in this industry.
[/font][/font]

Karen got really impatient and called Don herself.

Turns out the doors are not available and will not be for a while.

Not a huge deal - the existing door works, though its a struggle.

The bigger deal is when were they going to tell us?

In any case, we plan on picking up the trailer tomorrow. Maybe we'll see if Don can ship it to us and we can get it installed locally if they'll cover the cost - the 160 mile round trip to Buford is an expensive hassle.

Sorry to hear of your problems;  I hope things get resolved quickly and to your satisfaction.  As a potential LivinLite customer, I have been disappointed with a lack of any response to either of my short messages sent to the company via the "Contact"  area of their web site.    Hopefully, they will eventually contact me.  Both my wife and I have really liked the ones we have seen, but the lack of response is troubling.  

I wish they would start participating here in the forums as well. Currently this post has received over 1,600 views and that number is only growing. If they at least talked openly about the issues mentioned I think it would help Eddie and future buyers. The "ask the factory" section only has one actual response from LL that I'm aware of.

[quote source="/post/1235/thread" timestamp="1401231872" author="@tinkeringtechie"]I wish they would start participating here in the forums as well. Currently this post has received over 1,600 views and that number is only growing. If they at least talked openly about the issues mentioned I think it would help Eddie and future buyers. The "ask the factory" section only has one actual response from LL that I'm aware of.[/quote]And his last post was March 19th, and he was last online May 19th.

I too wish there was more participation.  They requested the Ask the Factory section.  Scott Tuttle is more active on the Yahoo Groups page.  I would hope someone would be here though.

I'll be asking Matt to sketch out the issue on this rough schematic I came up with:


(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3713/14290164895_09334a339f.jpg)



Am I on the right track?

We pickup up "Campy" yesterday.

I really should have video'd Matt's explanation, but didn't. I'll do my best to keep this straight.

He showed me a similar roof AC. Showed me where the neutral comes it, attaching to a capacitor, then running to the motor and the compressor. From the motor another lead runs to a ground on the AC frame.

Matt says with a wood or rubber roof, this is never an issue. On a CampLite, care must be taken not to have the frame of the AC contacting either the aluminum roof or underlying structure. In our case a mounting screw was contacting an aluminum structural member, completing the ground/neutral loop. The solution was to move the AC mount slightly to make sure it wasn't grounding.

In any case, I did have Matt confirm essentially infinite resistance between the neutral and ground lugs with a meter.

Later today I will try to run an extension cord from the pump house to our new "Campy Pad" down by our roadside pond, and see if the GFCI still trips. Hoping it doesn't.

Photos of our new "Campy Pad" to follow.

New parking spot (work in progress):


(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5233/14297269164_cc369499c1.jpg)




(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3709/14317999313_aed5d2d877.jpg)




(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5078/14111187290_39d4e1b8fc.jpg)



Right now we have well water to the site, and are considering 30A service if it can be done for a reasonable price.

[font size="3"][font face="arial"]First, that's a beautiful setting for your camper "storage". Really nice with all the comforts of home within a few walking steps. Just add a small septic system and you'll be ready for guests. Nice!

If I understand your discussion with Matt he removed the physical connection between the camper structure and the A/C chassis. If that's true I'd ask two questions. Doesn't that leave the A/C chassis ungrounded and floating and thereby potentially hot? Second is what's holding the A/C to the roof? I can't imagine something as heavy and bulky as the A/C not mounted to the roof aluminum structure. Perhaps some non-metallic portion of the A/C chassis is bolted to the camper roof structure? I still don't understand.
[/font][/font]

I'm not buying their explanation either. The A/C chassis should be grounded and the neutral should never come anywhere close to it. If it's bonded somewhere other than the junction box then it seems like Dometic may be responsible.

I think Matt said he's monitoring this thread, so maybe he'll chime in. I'll email him and ask him to, maybe with pictures of the unit's wiring he showed me (not mine).

In any case, I plugged into the GFCI outlet and the GFCI did not trip and I have power to the trailer.

Yay!

Question: I'm using a 100 ft extension cord. It's not marked, but seems to be about the same diameter as a shorter one I have marked 13A. 15A ones at Home Depot seem to run $70 to $85.

If we want to run the air conditioning, is it worthwhile to invest in a heavier duty extension cord for now? This may just be until we investigate running some underground Romex and installing a proper 30A outlet by the trailer.

[quote source="/post/1254/thread" timestamp="1401383219" author="@fasteddieb"]Question: I'm using a 100 ft extension cord. It's not marked, but seems to be about the same diameter as a shorter one I have marked 13A. 15A ones at Home Depot seem to run $70 to $85.

If we want to run the air conditioning, is it worthwhile to invest in a heavier duty extension cord for now? This may just be until we investigate running some underground Romex and installing a proper 30A outlet by the trailer.[/quote]Glad to hear it's working again. You may be able to run the A/C on a 15 amp circuit if nothing else is on in the trailer, 13 amp definitely won't do. Personally I wouldn't run it on anything less than a 20 amp circuit. I'd be worried about voltage drop with anything less. The A/C is on a 20 amp breaker, and probably for good reason.

Not to hijack the thread but somewhat related.  If I run my 21RBS on a heavy duty (~20A) 50 Ft extension cord my fridge pukes.  The fridge error codes "E0" and wont reset.  I have to manually remove power from the control board and have "good" shore power.    >:D      E0 to me sounds like a brownout condition detected. It would be nice to have an external reset button. I guess that will be on my mod list.

[font face="arial"][font size="3"]I generally agree with TT...Get a bigger extension. Wire is sized for two reasons: Fire safety, and voltage drop. Your A/C by it self will draw 15 Amps. From a safety perspective 14AWG will work, but for a long run the voltage drop will build up. Some things like lights and resistive heaters will not be damaged, but they won't work as well. But anything with a motor ( A/C, micro, fan) can be damaged. The fridge may not be damaged, but may not operate properly, particularly if the 12 volt sags. I would get a few real RV 30 Amp extension cords for temporary use. You should have one anyway for campgrounds. For your permanent installation I would run 8 gauge minimum, maybe even 6 if you're going 100 feet.[/font]

[/font]

[quote source="/post/1257/thread" timestamp="1401388541" author="@shovelhead"]Not to hijack the thread but somewhat related.  If I run my 21RBS on a heavy duty (~20A) 50 Ft extension cord my fridge pukes.  The fridge error codes "E0" and wont reset.  I have to manually remove power from the control board and have "good" shore power.    >:D      E0 to me sounds like a brownout condition detected. It would be nice to have an external reset button. I guess that will be on my mod list.[/quote]I believe E0 is a communication error. The fridge electronics all run on 12V, so a low voltage would just cause it to switch to propane (if it were on auto). The 120V side is literally a relay and a coil and I don't think the control board cares what that voltage is.

I am just finishing up a pad project for my 13QBB and ran electric to the structure.  Distance is really the enemy here so you can use this web page [a href="http://www.southwire.com/support/voltage-drop-calculator.htm"]here[/a] to calculate the correct gauge wire.  My run was about 130 feet and technically for the full 30 amp 120 volts at the camper end I would need #6 copper.

Mitch  

[quote source="/post/1260/thread" timestamp="1401392144" author="@tinkeringtechie"][quote source="/post/1257/thread" timestamp="1401388541" author="@shovelhead"]Not to hijack the thread but somewhat related.  If I run my 21RBS on a heavy duty (~20A) 50 Ft extension cord my fridge pukes.  The fridge error codes "E0" and wont reset.  I have to manually remove power from the control board and have "good" shore power.    >:D      E0 to me sounds like a brownout condition detected. It would be nice to have an external reset button. I guess that will be on my mod list.[/quote]I believe E0 is a communication error. The fridge electronics all run on 12V, so a low voltage would just cause it to switch to propane (if it were on auto). The 120V side is literally a relay and a coil and I don't think the control board cares what that voltage is.[/quote]In my case the switch to propane doesnt happen.  The E0 comm error keeps everything locked up.  You cant do a thing , not even turn it off.
I have to open the rear panel to access the12 volt buss, remove power for a second and that resets it.

[quote source="/post/1263/thread" timestamp="1401393202" author="@shovelhead"][quote source="/post/1260/thread" timestamp="1401392144" author="@tinkeringtechie"]I believe E0 is a communication error. The fridge electronics all run on 12V, so a low voltage would just cause it to switch to propane (if it were on auto). The 120V side is literally a relay and a coil and I don't think the control board cares what that voltage is.[/quote]In my case the switch to propane doesnt happen.  The E0 comm error keeps everything locked up.  You cant do a thing , not even turn it off.
I have to open the rear panel to access the12 volt buss, remove power for a second and that resets it.[/quote]
You can't turn it off because the top board (the one with the power button) can't communicate with the main board (in the rear access panel). I would check the connection between those two to make sure there isn't any corrosion/debris in the connector. Think of it like if your keyboard, mouse and monitor were disconnected from your computer... you wouldn't be able to control it and the monitor would just say "no signal". Essentially that's what the top board is telling you: E0 = "no signal".

Curiouser and curiouser - and seriouser and seriouser.

First, I had the GFCI on the pump house trip twice - once on Thursday and once on Friday. We've had afternoon thunderstorms and I thought it might just have been the plug and adapter getting wet. Both times the GFCI reset with no hassle.

But...

Last night, I was getting Jake our dog to climb into the trailer. As soon as his paws hit the step, he jerked away from it. He had been up those steps repeatedly with no issue before. I had to lift him into the trailer. I touched the step with the back of my hand and did not feel anything. Thinking about it later, I was wearing rubber-soled sandals, so that may have prevented me feeling it.

Today, our 4-year-old grandson was stepping out of the trailer and asked my wife, "Why is it shocking me?" Karen touched the door frame and got a definite tingle.

For now, of course, we've unplugged from shore power while we sort this out.

Any thoughts on things to check tomorrow? We're thinking its time for a local electrician to take a look at things.

I'll refer Matt to this post to see what he thinks. And Don.

Thanks.

[font size="3"][font face="arial"]Ed,

It's hard to troubleshoot from a distance, but IF the ground is good from the house power panel to the trailer frame there should be no way to get shocked. Trip breakers and GFCIs yes, but not shocked. I would look for an open ground, maybe a defective extension cord or adapter, maybe a miswired socket in the pump house. Check with a Ohmmeter from the camper chassis to the far end of the extension cord you plug into the pump house. Then check for 120V from the hot to both neutral and ground on the pump house socket. There should be 120VAC from the hot to both neutral and ground. If the A/C chassis,now isolated from the frame, is somewhat hot and the safety ground is open you can have a hot camper frame. The rain and a wet roof can add to this. If that GFCI continues to trip it's doing its job and you still have a problem.
[/font][/font]

Another thing to consider is that you could "fix" the neutral/ground short issue by disconnecting the ground. I REALLY hope that wasn't done in this case as that could be potentially lethal.

I will check the pump house wiring. Maybe take some pictures.

When I plugged in the little 3-light tester a while back, it showed normal indications.

I did buy a ground stake when I did the original install and have the ground wires hooked to that at the pump house.

If I drive a piece of rebar into the ground by the trailer, will either a voltmeter or ammeter from the trailer chassis to the rebar tell me anything while powered by shore power?

Matt responded last night, and wants us to bring the trailer back in. Kudos for a quick response (on a Sunday night). But the 160 mile round trip (twice each time) to drop it off and get it back is pretty time consuming and expensive. I will again refer him to this thread and encourage him to join in.

[quote source="/post/1307/thread" timestamp="1401708614" author="@fasteddieb"]If I drive a piece of rebar into the ground by the trailer, will either a voltmeter or ammeter from the trailer chassis to the rebar tell me anything while powered by shore power?


[/quote][font size="3"][font face="arial"]As a temporary test the rebar in the ground with a bucket of water around it will let you measure voltage to the CL frame. Use a voltmeter set on AC volts. It should read zero volts. Also try spraying water on the CL roof while you're measuring. For a permanent ground stake, if you decide on one, use a copper plated steel ground rod or a length of 3/4" copper pipe.[/font][/font]

Even before driving rebar, I would check continuity between the trailer plug ground and the frame.

I'm going to check everything this afternoon and will report back the findings.

Thanks!

I suspect that the plug ground is not connected to the frame anymore, as any voltage on the frame should have leaked to ground and caused the GFCI to trip. My guess is the those few times it did trip recently were caused by the frame voltage leaking to the literal ground (through your jacks or something similar touching the actual ground). It could also mean that the GFCI or extension cord are faulty, but that's less likely.

It's important to note that these symptoms show that the neutral/ground fault was never actually fixed, but instead an new problem (floating frame) has been added to the list.

I think we verified continuity with the frame when I picked it up - it will be the first thing I check this afternoon.

Progress report:

1) Ground lug on trailer is continuous with the chassis, but not with the other two lugs.

2) None of the wires on the entire length of cable/adapter/extension cord show as shorted to the other two.

3) I checked the ground plug of the extension cord and it is continuous with the trailer frame.

4) But yet, when I drove a 4' piece of rebar into the ground and measured AC volts, I got about 120 between the trailer frame and the rebar.

Yikes! Jake and Asher and Karen were right!

Time to check the wiring on the outlet at the pump house.

Last time I checked it with one of those 3-light testers it tested normal. Let me try it again. And I'll take a look at how the outlet is wired.

I have a friend who was an electrical engineer. I just called him.

Back to investigate further and check my wiring.

Sounds like the trailer is working correctly then. Let us know what you find on the outlet side. I guess the good news is you don't have to drive 160 miles...

What threw me the first time is that the little checker gives the right indications:


(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5593/14328262301_ef5900dbb4.jpg)



I did this so long ago, I don't remember my logic, but this is the back of the outlet - the power is coming in from the pump controller via the green and red wires on the left, the single black wire running from the case runs to a ground post in the ground:


(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3856/14328262931_18f4107e6b.jpg)



Here's where they wire into the pressure controller:


(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5513/14331590535_38d63fd49f.jpg)



The red and green to the outlet run off to the left, power from the house comes in from the right, and the grey cable lower left runs to the well pump.

It seems like if I did have anything reversed, it would show on the tester.

[font size="3"][font face="arial"]I can't tell exactly what's going on from your pictures, but I see some things I really don't like. The second picture shows a red and white wire connected, normally a no-no. Also a green and black connected, really a no-no. Normally green is reserved for ground, white is neutral, and hot is some other color like black, red, or blue. You really need to re-look the entire setup with your engineer friend and a voltmeter. There is a way, with the incoming hot and neutral reversed and the socked ground connected to the incoming hot, for the little tester to show good and the ground pin to be at 120VAC. I think this is possible by just reversing the incoming power line and not providing a good and separate safety ground connection from the house line to the trailer socket. Some older pump installations were 240V and no safety ground was carried through. BE VERY CAREFUL. THIS IS DANGEROUS. We need to keep all our Camplite owners   B-|.  With the trailer neutral and frame isolated everything will appear normal except the trailer will be 120 volts above ground. And if the trailer is really hot, disregard my suggestion of spraying water on the roof.
[/font][/font]

I appreciate the concern. It was jury-rigged in steps, and everything seemed logical at the time and seemed to work.

I think the issue has to be the outlet, since plugged into our hot tub's aux outlets (also GFCI) or the house using the same extension cords and adapter both work fine with no voltage from frame to ground stake and no tripping of the GFCI so far.

But for the life of me I can't see how the ground wire is being charged, in order to pass that current through to the trailer frame.

On the GFCI outlet, Hot and Neutral attach to the side terminals. Ground to a lug on the bottom. I have the ground running to a screw on the metal outlet box, then to a ground bus in the pump disconnect box, then another wire running from that bus to a ground stake. Nowhere is there a path for current to flow into the ground, that I can see.

Yet that seems to be what is happening.

Weird.

When my friend has time I will have him go over my Rube Goldberg setup and try to see where the problem lies. and probably try to color code properly.

Thanks again for your concern and patience.

[font size="3"][font face="arial"]Sounds like a plan. Just hook to the hot tub or house until you find the problem. When your friend comes over offer a 6-pack on non alcoholic beer and go to it. After the problem is fixed, break out the Georgia Moonshine.
[/font][/font]

So far, so good...

...hooked up to the GFCI hot tub outlet, no faults in spite of several heavy rains.

Have not had time to troubleshoot/repair/rewire the pump house outlet, but its off limits until I do.

I ordered a Valterra 64" hose carrier from Amazon to replace the much shorter one Livin Lite supplied. Fit right into the same slot:


(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5238/14394084781_6b11e79093_c.jpg)



Its to hold the 15' RhinoFlex hose we got, also from Amazon.

I'm considering mounting the shorter carrier and hose on the other side. 15' should be enough most of the time, but when we camped at Hiawassee, some of the sites had fairly long distances to the sewer hookup, so a bit extra hose for those times might come in handy.

[quote source="/post/1450/thread" timestamp="1402485989" author="@fasteddieb"]So far, so good...

...hooked up to the GFCI hot tub outlet, no faults in spite of several heavy rains.

Have not had time to troubleshoot/repair/rewire the pump house outlet, but its off limits until I do.

I ordered a Valterra 64" hose carrier from Amazon to replace the much shorter one Livin Lite supplied. Fit right into the same slot:

Its to hold the 15' RhinoFlex hose we got, also from Amazon.

I'm considering mounting the shorter carrier and hose on the other side. 15' should be enough most of the time, but when we camped at Hiawassee, some of the sites had fairly long distances to the sewer hookup, so a bit extra hose for those times might come in handy.[/quote][font size="3"][font face="arial"]Glad you're progressing. I take it you checked and no hot camper chassis when using the hot tub outlet. The OEM hose carrier may hold the 5' Rhino extension, but not the 10' version. I've got the 10' stored in the truck bed for now. Figured if the 15' wouldn't reach I'd probably need the 10' extension. Can't hurt. More is better??[/font][/font]

[quote source="/post/1450/thread" timestamp="1402485989" author="@fasteddieb"]



So far, so good...

...hooked up to the GFCI hot tub outlet, no faults in spite of several heavy rains.

Have not had time to troubleshoot/repair/rewire the pump house outlet, but its off limits until I do.

I ordered a Valterra 64" hose carrier from Amazon to replace the much shorter one Livin Lite supplied. Fit right into the same slot:


(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5238/14394084781_6b11e79093_c.jpg)
[/quote]Great minds think alike!  That's exactly where I mounted my 64" hose carrier to replace the short one.  That could be a picture of my camper.  No difference. :)

Please be sure to let us know what you find with your outlet.  It's got me curious.

Doug

[quote source="/post/1450/thread" timestamp="1402485989" author="@fasteddieb"]Its to hold the 15' RhinoFlex hose we got, also from Amazon.[/quote]

Have you tried installing the hose yet? Because we initially purchased the same carrier and found that it actually didn't fit. You'd think that the most popular hose and the most popular hose carrier on amazon would be compatible, but they weren't. The hose could fit with modifications (trim some of the lugs), but the sewer adapter didn't fit at all. Had to return it for the D&W super tube. The 60" super tube also happened to line up with the floor joists.

I was prepared to shave down some lugs to get it to fit, but it slid right in - with everything but the orange "cone adapter".

This is the one we got:


(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41%2BcZuq3V-L._SX342_.jpg)
(http://i.walmartimages.com/i/mp/00/01/47/17/39/0001471739163_P321146_180X180.jpg)Interestingly, it shows as $17 online, but was about $7 in the store - I would not have paid $17 for it and would have opted for RhinoFlex connectors instead. Still may.

[quote source="/post/1455/thread" timestamp="1402492200" author="@tinkeringtechie"][quote source="/post/1450/thread" timestamp="1402485989" author="@fasteddieb"]Its to hold the 15' RhinoFlex hose we got, also from Amazon.[/quote]Have you tried installing the hose yet? Because we initially purchased the same carrier and found that it actually didn't fit. You'd think that the most popular hose and the most popular hose carrier on amazon would be compatible, but they weren't. The hose could fit with modifications (trim some of the lugs), but the sewer adapter didn't fit at all. Had to return it for the D&W super tube. The 60" super tube also happened to line up with the floor joists.
[/quote]What is the D&W Super Tube and where did you buy it?    I did an Amazon search but found nada  Thanks

[quote source="/post/1463/thread" timestamp="1402499309" author="@fasteddieb"]I was prepared to shave down some lugs to get it to fit, but it slid right in - with everything but the orange "cone adapter".[/quote]
So where are you going to put the adapter? When that didn't fit, it was a dealbreaker for me. If I'm going to store poopy parts in a box somewhere in my rig I might as well just put the hose there as well. No reason to have multiple poopy storage areas.

[quote source="/post/1464/thread" timestamp="1402505329" author="@shovelhead"][quote source="/post/1455/thread" timestamp="1402492200" author="@tinkeringtechie"]Have you tried installing the hose yet? Because we initially purchased the same carrier and found that it actually didn't fit. You'd think that the most popular hose and the most popular hose carrier on amazon would be compatible, but they weren't. The hose could fit with modifications (trim some of the lugs), but the sewer adapter didn't fit at all. Had to return it for the D&W super tube. The 60" super tube also happened to line up with the floor joists.
[/quote]What is the D&W Super Tube and where did you buy it?    I did an Amazon search but found nada  Thanks[/quote]Here's the super-tube:

[a href="http://www.dwincorp.com/products/82/SUPER-TUBE"]http://www.dwincorp.com/products/82/SUPER-TUBE[/a]

The 60" version fits perfectly where Eddie put his carrier. The mounting holes also line up with the floor joists, so it attaches very securely. They have a new adjustable one that just came out:

[a href="http://www.dwincorp.com/products/125/NEW-SUPER-SLIDER-Adjustable-SUPER-TUBE"]http://www.dwincorp.com/products/125/NEW-SUPER-SLIDER-Adjustable-SUPER-TUBE[/a]

I haven't seen it myself though, so I'm not sure if it's as sturdy as the original.

We were invited to go camping last Thurs/Fri by some friends who had just bought a travel trailer and wanted to try it out. Chose a place pretty near us, River's Edge Campground near Murphy, NC.

Everything went pretty well.

All set up:


(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3840/14271526119_2f20f49a5c_z.jpg)
(https://farm3.staticflickr.com/2923/14472422451_d690df83c1_z.jpg)Going on a long dog rescue run to NJ tomorrow. Hope to camp at Chilhowee campground at some point next week if all goes well. Would love to meet some of the E TN/N GA/W NC contingent if you can stop by - will keep you guys informed of when we'll be there.

There is no set drain area for the condensate, depends on how the camper is leveled.  I've had it drain like shown on your picture before.  Last trip for us, it drained down the inside wall to my wife's side of the bed!  Needed to re-caulk that, so hopefully all is well now.  

[quote source="/post/1681/thread" timestamp="1403713394" author="@fasteddieb"]
I finally got up the courage to poop in the trailer - TWICE! Added some orange powder and when it came time to break camp Saturday morning, everything seemed to flush out pretty well via the RhinoFlex 15' hose we bought and carried in the new carrier.

I am wondering how often the black water tank needs to be flushed. Plan on buying a back-flush adapter, and maybe one of those wand things. Any recommendations?[/quote]
Congratulations  :D

Everyone manages their black tank differently, but a common practice is to wait until your tank is about 2/3 full before dumping. Unfortunately a 2-night trip won't fill it nearly that high. That gives you two options:

[ol type="decimal"][li]If you'll be going on another trip in the next few weeks, just save it for later and add some extra chemical just in case[/li][li]Fill the tank to 2/3 with water (with the toilet, a wand, or a gate flusher) and then flush[/li][/ol][div]
Dumping with only a couple days of "stuff" will leave solids behind that will eventually build up and potentially cause the dreaded "poopyramid" (I can tell you from experience)

I like to flush after each large trip or before long periods of storage. I ended up with both the Camco "swivel stik" and the Valterra "flush king". I use the flush king during trips at parks that have sewer hookups, and I use the swivel stik at home for a more thorough (but also more involved) cleaning.

One other thing that helps prevent any black water issues is to fill your black tank with enough water to create a "pool" across the entire bottom. The tank bottom is slanted pretty dramatically, so it takes quite a bit (5-10 gallons). If the tank is completely empty when you start, a #2 will just go "splat" onto the tank bottom and the fluids will drain to the side. If there's water there it lets the solids float around instead of sticking. Now that I have the flush king, I've been filling with that until it registers on the tank monitor. The black tank sensor is on the shallow end of the tank, so if it shows a reading then I'm guaranteed that the entire bottom has some water.[/div]

THIS is why I like this site; real information delivered in an easily understood manner.   We are RV  novices, and there is a lot to learn.   Great common sense advice.  

[quote source="/post/1681/thread" timestamp="1403713394" author="@fasteddieb"]
I am wondering how often the black water tank needs to be flushed. Plan on buying a back-flush adapter, and maybe one of those wand things. Any recommendations?

[/quote]Comments from TinkeringTechie are right on. I'll add that, when water and sewer hookup or dump station is available, I usually fill completely and flush at least twice.  It is important to be able to fill quickly if you're in line at a dump station. In contrast to the permanently installed flusher, I have read that the Flush King type flusher suffers from a limited fill rate due to a small water orifice. The little spray jet is really not effective; it's more important to completely fill and dump the tank a few times. Perhaps it could be drilled out. After flushing I add a toilet bowl full of water back into the tank so it sloshes around while driving. Keeps everything stirred up.  

[quote source="/post/1688/thread" timestamp="1403734645" author="@charliem"]In contrast to the permanently installed flusher, I have read that the Flush King type flusher suffers from a limited fill rate due to a small water orifice. The little spray jet is really not effective; it's more important to completely fill and dump the tank a few times.[/quote]This is true for some of them. There are two (or more) similar looking products on the market:

[a href="http://www.amazon.com/Camco-39062-Flush-Holding-Rinser/dp/B000BUQOAE/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1403750646&sr=8-3&keywords=black+tank+flusher"]Camco dual flush pro[/a]
[a href="http://www.amazon.com/Valterra-F02-4350-Black-Flush-Reverse/dp/B008O9DV78/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1403750941&sr=8-1&keywords=flush+king"]Valterra flush king[/a]

The Camco has the small jets that you're describing, but the flush king just has a big ball valve. The flush king fills just as fast as if I put a hose down the toilet. So if you want a gate flusher and fill rate is important to you (it was to me) then go for the flush king.

[quote source="/post/1692/thread" timestamp="1403751556" author="@tinkeringtechie"][quote source="/post/1688/thread" timestamp="1403734645" author="@charliem"]In contrast to the permanently installed flusher, I have read that the Flush King type flusher suffers from a limited fill rate due to a small water orifice. The little spray jet is really not effective; it's more important to completely fill and dump the tank a few times.[/quote]This is true for some of them. There are two (or more) similar looking products on the market:

[a href="http://www.amazon.com/Camco-39062-Flush-Holding-Rinser/dp/B000BUQOAE/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1403750646&sr=8-3&keywords=black+tank+flusher"]Camco dual flush pro[/a]
[a href="http://www.amazon.com/Valterra-F02-4350-Black-Flush-Reverse/dp/B008O9DV78/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1403750941&sr=8-1&keywords=flush+king"]Valterra flush king[/a]

The Camco has the small jets that you're describing, but the flush king just has a big ball valve. The flush king fills just as fast as if I put a hose down the toilet. So if you want a gate flusher and fill rate is important to you (it was to me) then go for the flush king.



[/quote][font face="arial" size="3"]Good info. Thanks for the clarification.[/font][font face="arial" size="3"] BTW, it looks like Valterra also makes a [a href="http://www.amazon.com/Valterra-F02-4100-45%C2%B0-RV-Hydroflush/dp/B0002UHVAA/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1403786456&sr=8-2&keywords=valterra+flush+king"]Hydroflush[/a] that suffers from the same problem, but doesn't include the gate valve. Buyer beware.
[/font]

Anybody use the "Sewer Solution" ?   I wonder about use at a full hookup site and  have potable water connected .  I know it has a check valve and
a garden hose for water supply should be used.  Just something about  the connection worries me.  It does look much more efficient.
[a href="http://www.amazon.com/Valterra-SS01-Boxed-SewerSolution-System/dp/B00CCYWJQK/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1403808134&sr=8-1&keywords=valterra+sewer+solution"]Valterra Sewer Solution[/a]
 

[quote source="/post/1700/thread" timestamp="1403808337" author="@shovelhead"]Anybody use the "Sewer Solution" ?   I wonder about use at a full hookup site and  have potable water connected .  I know it has a check valve and
a garden hose for water supply should be used.  Just something about  the connection worries me.  It does look much more efficient.
[a href="http://www.amazon.com/Valterra-SS01-Boxed-SewerSolution-System/dp/B00CCYWJQK/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1403808134&sr=8-1&keywords=valterra+sewer+solution"]Valterra Sewer Solution[/a]
 [/quote]I just watched a video about it: 

[video src="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dsdfUXoOxrw"][/video]

I don't get it... :-/ It looks like it takes much longer than necessary, it's big and bulky, and you can't even use it to flush the actual tank (he had to use a separate black tank flusher). The only thing that I could see this being useful for is if you want to get a really long 1" hose to pump long distances. Otherwise I don't see any advantages.

The Valterra version.  It's < $80 on Amazon (Prime)  I could have used this when I was at my sons place. His septic  system dump port
was about 50 feet from where I parked.  I could'nt get any closer do to terrain (yard and a good slope)  I had to drive to
a dump station about 10 miles away.


[video src="http://youtu.be/zYJCLzGaaB8"][/video]

[quote source="/post/1702/thread" timestamp="1403815398" author="@shovelhead"]The Valterra version.  It's < $80 on Amazon (Prime)  I could have used this when I was at my sons place. His septic  system dump port
was about 50 feet from where I parked.  I could'nt get any closer do to terrain (yard and a good slope)  I had to drive to
a dump station about 10 miles away.
[/quote]

That video made it look even slower. He also admits at 10:15 that "the effectiveness of the flush is going to depend on your plumbing configuration". Well on my 21BHS that means it's going straight into a 90 degree turn and if it makes it past that it will just shoot against the side of the very front of the tank. But as you mentioned, for longer distances it might be a good option. I wouldn't use it at an RV park though.

Based on these videos it seems that if you really want the least amount of sludge on the tank bottom a wand is the only way to do it.

[quote source="/post/1704/thread" timestamp="1403824217" author="@mitch"]Based on these videos it seems that if you really want the least amount of sludge on the tank bottom a wand is the only way to do it. [/quote]I think some of the permanent black tank flushers can be just as good, but it's really dependent on the location and spray pattern. I like the wand because if anything is going to stick or clog it's probably going to be right below the toilet and that's exactly where the wand is pointing.

WalMart sunrise:


(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3856/14848412334_985ac19a36.jpg)



This morning, New Bern, NC.

Where are you heading?

We visited Camp Sea Gull near Arapahoe, NC this morning.

Then took the ferry from Minnesott Beach to Cherry Branch:


(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3868/14665716959_eb84d4ee18.jpg)



Now just set up camp for a couple nights in Sea Level, NC.

All very spur of the moment.

Sounds great. Enjoy!

I see pictures like this and I can't wait to get my 21-BHS. Actually, I am on vacation now, staying in hotels, lugging my bags in and out, making sure my dogs will be allowed in the room, etc. Send more pics when you can.

(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3914/14853259594_b1629f26a0.jpg)

Oooh, I like the dish washing platform. We're using a folding table back there to do dishes. Thanks for the idear.

I probably should 'fess up to our first oopsie, pulling out of our driveway yesterday:


(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5551/14669312119_227985a1da.jpg)
(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3869/14832935896_101faffbb9.jpg)

Great pics. Hope you didn't damage the mailbox! I am planning an outside kitchen. Placing a table on the side of the camper, I could wash dishes and pans and use that outside shower connection. Excellent. I also like the way you personalized your camper on the back.

[quote source="/post/2396/thread" timestamp="1407470912" author="@leslie"]Great pics. Hope you didn't damage the mailbox! I am planning an outside kitchen. Placing a table on the side of the camper, I could wash dishes and pans and use that outside shower connection. Excellent. I also like the way you personalized your camper on the back.[/quote][p]We do 95% of our cooking outside on the picnic table with a 2-burner stove and a single burner bbq. Very happy about that so far. I did just buy an aluminum roll-up table that can do the same job while staying under the awning if it is raining. We will also use it with a toaster oven outside. Inside counterspace is just too tight.[/p][p]
[/p]

I plan to cook outside in order to lessen the condensation inside the camper. Although I can see myself heating water for my morning coffee inside. Gotta have coffee - French press will be in the camper.