Archive - Aluminium Camper Forum

After a three week long trip, I have an unusual problem that I would like "to throw out there". I can run water in my kitchen sink ( 21RBS ) until it won't drain anymore and leave it full, then fill the bath sink with open drain and it will not drain either. The sensor says the thank is only 1/3 full, and I am certain that it is only partially full. I believe that I have a venting issue somewhere, i.e. at the bath sink, up on the roof, at the tank ( is there a vent on the tank???). I just got back today, but I intend to pour one gallon at a time into the kitchen sink, with a completely empty tank, and count how many gallons it takes before it won't drain. Then I will bring it to be repaired. Any ideas why this is happening. If I am camping without sewer hook up, this could get real old real quick. Thanks for any ideas.

I've suspected a similar issue - grey tank acting full - but have not done the measuring test yet. Had no idea what to attribute it to...  Interested in hearing more about your tests.

I think (no direct experience) that each sink has an air admittance valve and that the grey tank has a roof vent. If neither sink drains properly after just a few gallons, I would suspect a roof vent problem.

Chances are that the vent pipe was pushed too deeply into your tank. Once the water reaches the vent pipe nothing new  will enter the tank. You could probably rent one of those inspection cameras and go up the dump valve to verify. Not sure how you'd fix it though...

[font size="3"]I had the same problem and also thought of the vent pipe pushed too deeply into the gray tank. I could cause the burping of the sink drains while dumping 5 gal jugs into the shower. After much discussion with LL I took the rig to CW for service. They replaced the AAV in the bathroom and re-ran my test. Problem fixed. I don't understand how that AAV was causing the problem, but the CW techs had apparently seen this before. Maybe I don't fully understand the operation of the AAV. The gray tank vent is connected very close to the shower P-trap so pushing a lot of water down the shower drain could back up into and block the vent pipe. My problem also occurred at about 1/2 full.

Again, I don't quite understand why the problem was occurring or why the AAV might have been causing it, but it seems to be fixed. I verified by dumping "calaibrated" water jugs down the drains.  Since then, on camping trips, I am able to use the shower, bath, and kitchen sinks with no problems until the the gray tank shows full on the SeeLevel gauge. Using the "calibrated" jug measurement I was able to put 33 gallons into a freshly emptied gray tank before backing up into the shower with no burping.
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Once again, charliem, you are my hero. I will make an appointment with CW asap, and report back. 
Thanks

[font size="3"]Check with Don at LL before you set up with CW. LL covered mine under the one year warranty.
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i had discussed this with Don. He indicated it would be under warranty. Can't imagine that it would not be covered. I also had false reading with my black tank sensor from day one. It read "full" when it was completely empty and brand new!! Don sent me a diagram of the wiring and suggested that the ground wire was too close to the sensors. I will mention this to CW also, as it would be nice it the sensors worked.

Hi gleamb,

After reading your post, it seems to me that I have the same problem with our new 21 RBS, although I am out of town and cannot verify by actually doing the "Gallon jug" thing.  Can you let us know the resolution after CW fixes it?
Thanks!

Another 21RBS owner here, I'll run a gallon check in my grey tank as soon as it's safe to water up.

Just got done with my test. After 10 gallons down the kitchen sink, the panel read 1/3 full and there was loud "gurgling" coming from the bathroom sink. At 20 gallons, the panel read full. At 23 gallons the kitchen and bathroom stopped draining. There is clearly a " venting issue " here. I just don't know if CW will attempt a fix . I will call them tomorrow and find out. My black tank reads " full " and it is empty. Did it from the day I picked it up from my dealer. Brand new. Don, at Livinlite suggested that the ground was " too close " to the sensors and, thus, was giving a "false positive ". My wiring seems to be covered with a foam type spay on insulation. Again, I wonder if CW can fix it.

[font size="3"]Re the OEM sensor panel:

Originally LL did not supply any tank monitoring system. Several of us were disappointed, but not a deal breaker. TinkeringTechie and I installed the SeeLevel 709 system and are very satisfied. The SeeLevel sensors are affixed to the exterior of the tanks, thereby eliminating the failures found with the probe system. A few more bucks, but they really work. Recently LL has been supplying an inexpensive probe monitor system. These are characterized by four probes penetrating each tank. In theory they sense the physical level of the tank fluid by change of resistance and light the corresponding number of lights on a panel. It don't work that way. The real world allows crud to build up on the probes leading to false high readings. This occurs from normal filling, but also results from incomplete cleaning, road sloshing, repeated filling and draining. So the general conclusion from users is 1) sorta works on the fresh tank, 2) marginally effective on gray tank but you never can rely on it and 3) totally useless on the black tank.

The remaining function is the battery "measurement" function. This is simply a measurement of the battery voltage ( measured somewhere?) that leads to a 1 to 4 light display estimating battery SOC. After lots of research the true story is out. The top light means nothing more than the battery is being charged. It does not mean full charge. The bottom light means you totally forgot to bring the battery. If you ever had a real battey show one light you should be headed to the battery store next. The other two lights are in between somewhere.

So the conclusion of all the know and most that just have experience is: the probe monitor is sorta useful for the fresh water tank, but not much else. BTW this 4 probe/ 4 light system is found in 99.9????% of all low, medium, and even high end RVs.


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[quote source="/post/7412/thread" timestamp="1425415287" author="@gleamb"]Just got done with my test. After 10 gallons down the kitchen sink, the panel read 1/3 full and there was loud "gurgling" coming from the bathroom sink. At 20 gallons, the panel read full. At 23 gallons the kitchen and bathroom stopped draining. There is clearly a " venting issue " here. I just don't know if CW will attempt a fix . I will call them tomorrow and find out. My black tank reads " full " and it is empty. Did it from the day I picked it up from my dealer. Brand new. Don, at Livinlite suggested that the ground was " too close " to the sensors and, thus, was giving a "false positive ". My wiring seems to be covered with a foam type spay on insulation. Again, I wonder if CW can fix it.[/quote][font size="3"]Gleamb,[/font]

[font size="3"]I'll be very interested in you results and outcome with CW. On the gauge system see my dissertation above.  Record you results and they may give you some useful indications on the road. As I said before I don't understand how my CW work fixed the burping problem, but it seems have. I suppose I could run more tests, but that gets old after a while. Didn't I spend all this money to go camping? I've got my own separate lab in the garage.

Camp On 8-)
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Well I just came back from a cold trip to Boston and I was able to do the "gallon" test tonight.  Just as I suspected, filling the kitchen sink, at gallon 14, the bathroom sink stated gurgling. By the gallon 15, both sinks stopped draining.  Rats!... Is it just the AAV at the bathroom sink?  I know that they are inexpensive.  Do they just screw on with Teflon tape?

I hate to drive it to CW for a warranty repair that I could just fix it myself.  Any help or insight would be appreciated.

Thanks!

On a side note, the tank read 1/3 full at ten gallons and read 2/3 on gallon 15 when it stopped draining.

[font size="3"]nd1979: This will be a very wordy answer to your question. Please read to the end.

By my count we now have four confirmed instances of this problem (gleamb, CMac, nd1979, and charliem). The problem is apparent improper gray tank venting which manifests as lack of draining and/or gurgling and blowback from sink drains when the tank is known to be only 1/3 to 1/2 full. This is different from and independent of the inaccurate gauge reading issue. This post will discuss only the apparent vent problem.

The gray tank is vented to the roof by a pipe inserted into the tank close to the shower drain. The shower drains via its own P-trap into this same vent pipe above the level of the tank top. Plumbers call this a "wet" vent The two ( one for BHS) sinks drain through a second pipe into the tank via a second tank penetration. Each sink has a P-trap and an Air Admittance Valve (AAV). The AAVs allow air to enter the drain pipe downstream from the P-traps so the P-traps are not sucked dry. The AAVs should not allow air and gasses from the tank to escape into the camper. In other words, the AAV is a one way air valve, allowing air into the pipe/tank, but not out of the tank. The AAV does not vent the tank.
As detailed in my previous post, I originally thought the problem was the vent pipe shoved too far into the tank, thereby blocking the flow of air when the tank level reached the bottom of the vent pipe. When air trapped in the tank cannot be released through the vent stack it will be forced back up the sink drain pipe, thereby building up pressure in the sink drain pipe. If the AAVs are working as I understand them, the only exit for this air is back through a sink P-trap, thereby causing gurgling and water splatter from the sink drains.

I verified the roof vent pipe was clear of obstruction and coordinated a warranty repair with Don at LL. I took the camper to CW for the work. The techs there seemed familiar with the problem. They confirmed my problem by emptying 5 gallon buckets into the shower and observing the gurgle/splash from the sinks. They "fixed"  it by replacing the AAV under the bathroom sink and reran the bucket test. Problem fixed! (?)  

This never did agree with my understanding of the physics of the system. Replacing the AAV should not have fixed a venting problem. However CW claimed they had seen this problem before and it was just a faulty AAV. The sink drains and the shower all work properly now and a full tank backs up into the shower (lowest drain) as expected. That said, if the  "new" AAV was allowing air to escape back into the camper the observed results would be the same. However, this would also allow gasses from the tank or a CG sewer to leak back into the camper. Bad thing. TinkeringTechie has suggested a test to confirm or deny this using a leaf blower, but I have not yet been able to do this (something to do with a total knee replacement).
 
All of this is a long way of answering nd1979's question. The AAVs just screw into a coupling on the drain pipe next to the P-trap under the counter. If I understand what's happening you should be able to "fix" your problem by completely removing the AAV, leaving an open pipe. NOTE: This is not a permanent fix since it allows tank/sewer odors to back up into the trailer. If the gallon jug test then passes it will further confirm our suspicion that the primary vent pipe is pushed too far into the tank. Dropping the tank and fixing that defect is beyond what we as new owners should want to tackle. If  all four of us can get together in our approach to LL, maybe we can get a resolution and help LL avoid future occurrences. I'll volunteer to call Don if you guys can feed me your observations, tests, and results. [/font]

Thanks Charliem for the detailed explanation.  I will be trying the gallon jug test again without the AAV in the bathroom sink.  I just settled in at Lake Conroe, TX for the weekend and since I have full hookups it will be easier to do.  It is our second adventure!

I will report back my findings for others to know too.

I hope that you have a speedy recovery on that knee replacement.

Thanks
John

I'm "in" Charliem. Thanks for the post. I want to make sure I get this right... 5 gallon buckets of water down the shower drain. I'm looking for a premature fill of the grey tank as well as gurgling in the sink. My warrantee is up in a few months, so I'd definitely like to get this figured out soon. Will take me a few weeks before I can get the test done.

Did you need me to retest with the AAV removed?

My local Camping World didn't call me back to do warranty work. I thought since Thor owns both, I'd get better service. I will try again soon. then I'll ask Livin Lite for help

[font size="3"]nd1979: [/font][font size="3"]That would be good. If it fails with the AAV in place and passes with the AAV removed it proves the vent is submerged.

CMac: That's correct. When pouring into the shower you should hear and see gurgling and splashing from the sinks before the tank is full. Keep a count of the buckets so you know how much water you're pouring in. The tank should hold around 30 gallons when physically full. You can also run the test by pouring water into the kitchen sink.

gleamb: Yes a retest without the bathroom AAV should allow complete filling with no gurgling or back spray. Keep track of how many gallons you're putting in. [/font]
[font size="3"]On the CW contact, I called Don in LL warranty and told him what was going on. He gave me his phone number which then gave to the CW guy. All seemed to go smoothly.

All: I've diagrammed the whole DWV system trying to understand what's going on. I can find no way for the problem to be "fixed" by replacing the AAV with a working AAV. The AAV should let air pass in only one way: into the tank, not out of the tank. Now I'm looking at what happens if the combined kitchen/bath drain pipe is pushed too far into the tank. Physically that's also possible. But it's getting late and I need another "happy" pill  :D
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[font size="3"]We have had this happen once.  Both sinks stopped draining and then a gush of air came back through the sink drain and it all drained.  Will do the test and report back.[/font]

[font size="3"]To further the conversation on the gray tank problem I submit the attached drawings.


[attachment id="915" thumbnail="1"]

Figure 1 is a schematic of the gray water system on a 21RBS, but it should be representative of other models with exception of the bathroom sink. Gray water fills the tank through two entry pipes. One drains the shower and also serves as the wet vent for the tank. The two sinks are combined to drain through the second entry pipe. Each drain has a P-trap to prevent tank gasses from backing up into the trailer. The shower is directly vented by the wet vent. Eeach sink is vented by an Air Admittance Valve (AAV). These AAVs let air into the drain pipe downstream from the P-trap to prevent water from siphoning out of the traps. As shown in the drawing both entry pipes are connected to, but do not penetrate, the gray tank. This is the ideal installation. Air displaced by additional water from either entry pipe is vented out the wet vent to the trailer roof.  Note that the vertical scale is not accurate. The tank itself is only about six inches tall.
[attachment id="918" thumbnail="1"]

Figure 2 depicts an installation error where the vent pipe extends some distance into the tank. The drains will perform properly until the water level reaches the bottom of the vent pipe. At this point the trapped air can no longer exit via the vent, but will be forced back up the sink drain pipe and out one of the sink P-traps. This causes the gurgling sound and water from the traps being splattered out of the sinks. I believe this is the condition we are seeing. Depending on how far the vent pipe protrudes into the tank, symptoms will appear at various levels less than 100% full.

[attachment id="919" thumbnail="1"]

Figure 3 depicts a similar situation, but the pipe from the sinks is pushed too far into the tank. I believe this is physically possible during assembly, but I don't have any idea how probable it is. I'm still trying to think through the symptoms from this configuration. I think air trapped in the sink drain stack would be compressed and forced out one of the sink P-traps as water is added. This may cause gurgling, but it might just make the sinks drain very slowly. Either way the tank will act as if it's full long before it really is. Each time a sink is emptied the AAV will let a new charge of air into the pipe. More thought is required here. In a properly operating system the gray water should begin to back up into the shower first because the shower is the lowest drain.

All this assumes the AAVs are working properly, admitting air in only one direction. If an AAV is stuck open, or not even there, the tank will be vented out the failed AAV. In Fig 2 the tank will appear to be filling correctly, but any tank odors will vent into the trailer. In Fig 3 it's probably similar, but I'm still thinking on this. If an AAV is stuck closed there is probably an effect on the sink P-traps. If sucked dry, odors will back up into the trailer through the dry P-trap.
So what's the worst case? Figure 2 and a failed or absent AAV. The drains would work properly, but odors could be noticeable. If, as some campers do, the sewer hose is left connected to the CG sewer, the gray drain valve is left open, an AAV is stuck open, and a vent fan is running. Phewweee!

All comments, suggestions, additions, or subtractions are welcome. My goal is to build an understanding for us and LL so this problem can be put in the history file.    

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Well, I just did the test.  I filled it back up until the kitchen sink stopped draining.  It could be that I  was on a slight slope before and not now but the tank read 1/3 full.  I  unscrewed the bathroom AAV and just before it was totally off I could feel and hear the air get sucked in.  When It was off on the next turn, a big whoosh of air was sucked in and the kitchen sink drained.

I screwed it back in and added more water in the kitchen sink until it stopped draining and now I am at 2/3 full.  I screwed off the valve again and again, a big whoosh of air and the water drained again, just as fast as the first time.

I repeated this again, and for the third time it repeated the pattern.

So, I might have a bad AAV or maybe a vent pipe issue like charliem described in fig 1 or fig 2.

Thanks Charlie - the diagrams really help a lot!

Ran my GW test today in 3gl increments via the kitchen sink. I marked a 5gl bucket using 3 fills from a 1gl milk jug. At 9 buckets (27gls) all was still good. I then started pouring 1/2gl at a time with a tea pitcher - the bathroom sink gurgled and everything stopped at 27.5. Since there was no water coming up through the shower pan, I assumed there was still some capacity in the holding tank - should have been about 5gls? I poured a gallon into the shower pan to verify and it did not drain either. Obviously there might be some margin of error in the actual capacity of the advertised 32gl GW tank - my bucket measurements weren't QC perfect but not off that much?

I could live with 27gl capacity and it would probably be fine - but I'm not sure I want to let LL off the hook on this? I suppose I could removed the AAVs and try it again to at least compare the results - but I'm with Charlie, the faulty AAV thing just doesn't make sense? But then again - it seems to have solved his problem? With a dry shower pan and stopped up sinks, a small air lock caused by figure #2 makes the most sense - a bore scope would definitely tell the tale.

PS, I also checked my tank gauges through the process - definitely will be upgrading those some day.

Edit, my CL was level - but no way to tell if the tank was? Another possible culprit?

[font size="3"]nd1979: [/font][font size="3"]Are you sure the whoosh was air being sucked in? Not air being blown out? My thinking says the air should be getting trapped in the tank when the vent pipe is submerged. That would stop the draining. Then, when you opened the AAV the trapped air would be released (blown out) through the AAV pipe and draining would resume. If that air is truly being sucked into the open pipe it would indicate a faulty AAV. The AAV's whole function in life is to admit air into the pipe at that point.

surfsup: The 27 gal number may not be too far off. The usable tank capacity is highly dependent on the tank being level and how completely it was drained previously. The trailer has to be level to well within less than 1 degree side-to-side and front-to-back. Those big flat tank bottoms don't have to be off much to make a big difference in capacity. Levelness also affects how well the tank drains, thereby affecting your capacity runs. I ran three different gallon tests just as you described and got 27, 33, and 33 gallons. The 27 reading was at some earlier time and I didn't go back to resolve the discrepancy, but I do remember the 33 gallon readings had some water standing in the shower. Most of us are seeing problems around 1/3 to 1/2 full, but you may have the vent pipe just barely penetrating the tank. Trying the test with the AAV removed would answer that. And as far as your gauge readings, you'll love your new SeeLevel  :D

 
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Yes, it was air being sucked in for sure.

[quote source="/post/7791/thread" timestamp="1426373032" author="@nd1979"]Yes, it was air being sucked in for sure.[/quote][font size="3"]OK. In that case you get off easy. Just replace the faulty AAV. I need to recheck mine when I can walk again. It may be that I've been wrong all along and I just had a bad AAV from the beginning. But that still doesn't explain the splattering and regurgitation I had from the sink drains and I don't understand how that much vacuum could be generated by putting water into the tank. Believe me, I'd love for a bad AAV to have been the problem. Thanks for your work.
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JUST replace the AAV with WHAT?? Where do we purchase them? Same brand or do we try a different manufacturer ? My trailer is new and under warranty....why would I have to do this and not Livin Lite???

I sure wish someone at Livin Lite would monitor these forums. hey need to know what is going on. When I spoke with Don about this problem, I asked him if he had ever heard of it from other owners. He said he HADN'T !!!!????!! Really?

I'm testing tomorrow since I planned to de-winterize.  I'm 1 week out of warranty. Crossing my fingers.

I sent an email to Don this evening describing my test fills and removing the valve, and asking him to send me a replacement.  I would hope that he will send them to us as it will be cheaper than going in to CW for a warranty claim.

[video src="https://youtu.be/nCMu4WfiIvg"][/video]


I'm not a plumber but this helped me understand what the AAV does.

Thanks Shovelhead for the video...just what I needed to see!

Thx for the video. So this verifies the AAVs sole function - let's air in, but not out.

When nd1979 removed his AAV, he heard a "sucking" sound, so obviously his wasn't working properly - i.e., letting air in under negative pressure.

Maybe LL bought a bad batch of AAVs?

So I pulled my kitchen AAV out this morning, it is made by J&B Products, actual vent is called a Vent Check 2 - I can't even find this product on Google?

I did find a few plumber forums discussing AAVs, some state codes don't allow them at all. One master plumber commented that in any drain scenario, to use an AAV, there needs to be at least one atmospheric vent in that drain line somewhere. I have one in my island kitchen sink at home, but that drain is tied into a line that has an atmospheric roof vent.

[quote timestamp="1426389276" author="@gleamb" source="/post/7805/thread"]JUST replace the AAV with WHAT?? Where do we purchase them? Same brand or do we try a different manufacturer ? My trailer is new and under warranty....why would I have to do this and not Livin Lite???

I sure wish someone at Livin Lite would monitor these forums. hey need to know what is going on. When I spoke with Don about this problem, I asked him if he had ever heard of it from other owners. He said he HADN'T !!!!????!! Really?[/quote][font size="3"]gleamb,

If the trailer is still in warranty the first line of defense is via LL. I only suggest you replace the AAV if your dealer or service site is hours away. Many of us opt to repair simple things ourselves, even if within the warranty period, because it's easier, faster, more convenient, or cheaper than hauling the trailer to a distant repair facility. That's my overall philosophy on warranty repairs. However, if you're in warranty and you're close to a repair facility or you're not comfortable doing the work yourself you should by all means contact LL. The AAV should be available at Lowes, HD, or and RV supply house for around $20. There are several attachment methods available so take your old one to the store when buying.

As far as Don's memory, I think either his memory is short or he is overwhelmed with warranty calls. We had the same response when fasteddieb was fighting a ground fault/hot chassis problem. Don's response was "they all do that". Wrong!! Only with our encouragement and a sharp dealer tech was Eddie able to get the fault fixed.
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Thanks, charliem. I am, indeed, far from D&H, and my local CW doesn't seem to like doing Livin Lite warranty work. I am very comfortable changing out the AAV. I just wanted to try a different manufacturer. Can you tell me how the AAV at the kitchen and bath sink come out? Do they screw in? Do I have to cut them out ?

Thanks for your help with this and the backup camera.

Hi gleamb

I have a 2015 21RBS also and the one in my bathroom just screwed out.  I did not check the one in the kitchen though, but I will check it tomorrow if you need me to.

[font size="3"]Thanks, nd1979. That's my recollection too. I think any brand AAV available that physically fits will work.
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Sanitized the white tank today, in the process of pumping all 30gls to the grey tank via the water pump I discovered something good ---> At water pump pressure running the kitchen and bathroom faucets, my grey tank took it all, no gurgles, no problemos at all. Repeated the entire process for the 30gl rinse - same good results!

I'm healed.

I de-winterized today.  Flushed everything out.  Then I tested for the grey water ala AAV  problem.  I used a 3 gallon Crystal water jug.
It took 11 refills and as the last bit left the water jug the shower tray was about 1" deep and the kitchen sink was half full.  No gushing no  gurgling.  As we said on the boats.   Works fine last a long time and drains to the bilge.

Surfsup and Shovelhead.....that's great news!! .....on my end, Don at LL is sending me new valves, one for the kitchen too, just in case and I should be good to go too.

[quote source="/post/7937/thread" timestamp="1426549540" author="@nd1979"]Surfsup and Shovelhead.....that's great news!! .....on my end, Don at LL is sending me new valves, one for the kitchen too, just in case and I should be good to go too.[/quote][font size="3"]Ditto on that, but I think Shovelhead paid off Murphy. He got off too easy. BTW Murphy was last seen living in an old Air Stream on a back lot in Wakarusa.
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Quote from: @nd1979" source="/post/7937/thread" timestamp="1426549540Surfsup and Shovelhead.....that's great news!! .....on my end, Don at LL is sending me new valves, one for the kitchen too, just in case and I should be good to go too.

Great support from LL, I'm sure you'll keep us posted..

Murphy is still around .  Early last year I was in Yellowstone.  Temps didnt get out of the high 40's, and it was pouring buckets.  I was stuck inside so I start watching TV while lying on the bed.   My foot touched the wall under the storage cabinet and it felt cold and wet.  I thought I had a leaker.  Dont you know Murphy wont allow me to recreate  the leak. I've showered the outside and even ran through a truck wash and I cant find the leak.   I chalked it up to being condensation with the cold temps and rain.   Murphy will prove me wrong at the worst possible time... I'm sure.

[quote source="/post/7930/thread" author="@shovelhead" timestamp="1426544432"]I de-winterized today.  Flushed everything out.  Then I tested for the grey water ala AAV  problem.  I used a 3 gallon Crystal water jug.
It took 11 refills and as the last bit left the water jug the shower tray was about 1" deep and the kitchen sink was half full.  No gushing no  gurgling.  As we said on the boats.   Works fine last a long time and drains to the bilge.[/quote]I think using a crystal water jug was bit much, a regular plastic one probably would have worked just as well. ;)

Dang I could have saved a lot of dough.. Those 11 jugs of Crystal water were like $65.   I didnt know I could have used tap water.

[font size="3"]OK Folks. After thinking this through a bit more, I'm going to suggest simple tests to determine if your gray water system is working properly. We'll be testing only for proper drainage, not for available capacity or gauge accuracy.

[/font][ol type="decimal"][li][font size="3"]Start with city water hooked up and the gray tank empty. No Crystal water required.[/font][/li][li][font size="3"]Run the cold wide open in both sinks simultaneously. If both sinks drain
 properly until water backs up into the shower your gray system is good
to go. The shower is the lowest drain in the system and should be the
first to back up when full.[/font][/li][li][font size="3"]If either sink backs up, gurgles or burps you may have a faulty Air Admittance Valve (AAV). [/font][/li][li][font size="3"]Empty the gray tank (yes, you can dump this on your lawn unless you have an HOA).[/font][/li][li][font size="3"]Remove one AAV and retest. Whichever AAV , when removed, allows the test to complete successfully is probably bad.[/font][/li][li][font size="3"]Empty the gray tank (under cover of darkness if you have an HOA).[/font][/li][li][font size="3"]Run both hot and cold water in shower wide open. (WH off)[/font][/li][li][font size="3"]If neither sink burps and water begins to back up into the shower your gray is good to go.[/font][/li][li][font size="3"]If either sink burps before water backs up in the shower your gray vent
pipe may be blocked or pushed too deeply into the gray tank. Check for
vent blockage on the roof. If the vent is not physically blocked it
probably is installed improperly. If the main vent becomes inoperative,
and the two AAVs are good,  the air trapped in the tank will be forced
out through the sink P-traps. [/font][/li][/ol][p][font size="3"]
[/font][/p][font size="3"]This test more closely simulates normal usage. Specifically, dumping 5 gallons of water all at once into the shower could overpower the wet vent, producing a false indication of failure.
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Charlie, I think you've hit the nail on the head!

[quote timestamp="1426634732" author="@surfsup" source="/post/8023/thread"]Charlie, I think you've hit the nail on the head![/quote][font size="3"]Thanks. I just hope I don't hit the nail on my finger[/font] [attachment id="648" thumbnail="1"]

Until you are off the pain meds, leave the nails alone! On the other hand, with the pain meds, you might not feel any pain...

Stay on the meds....

[video src="https://youtu.be/BeskbiJjCXI"][/video]

I did the grey water tank measuring test today.  Put 36 gallons down the shower before it backed up. Then tried an additional gallon in the kitchen sink. It was slow to empty. So looks like I don't have a problem, at least at the moment. Will continue to watch closely, as I still believe that it was backing up too quickly at one point. Thanks Charliem for all of the analysis and others for posting your results.  

Also pulled the anode for the first time (have had the trailer since June 2014). It was pretty corroded with lots of chunks eaten out of it.  Ordered two new replacements from Amazon and will benefit from the recent posts here as I thread the new one in.  

Very thankful for this forum!

[quote timestamp="1427064453" author="@spunk4" source="/post/8316/thread"]I did the grey water tank measuring test today.  Put 36 gallons down the shower before it backed up. Then tried an additional gallon in the kitchen sink. It was slow to empty. So looks like I don't have a problem, at least at the moment. Will continue to watch closely, as I still believe that it was backing up too quickly at one point. Thanks Charliem for all of the analysis and others for posting your results.  

Also pulled the anode for the first time (have had the trailer since June 2014). It was pretty corroded with lots of chunks eaten out of it.  Ordered two new replacements from Amazon and will benefit from the recent posts here as I thread the new one in.  

Very thankful for this forum![/quote]Dont try  Charlie's recommendation.  Too hard to get that trailer on end.

[font size="3"](Hello, this is Brenda's husband, Bryce.)

We just ran the test and also calibrated our newly installed see level monitor.
We are having the same venting problem with our grey tank.  After about 10 gallons the sinks started gurgling and spitting.
It seems to me that the AAV valve can only be defective if it does not either let air into the system and/or lets air out.  It is designed to be a one way valve only to keep a vacuum from forming when draining the tank or sinks.  If CW fixed the problem by replacing the AAV valve it means they must have disabled it by allowing it to let air out of the system and into the trailer. So the problem would appear to be fixed but it is not.


IMO, the problem has to be the vent.  And if the vent was blocked on the roof, it would start gurgling immediately and wouldn't wait till the ten gallon point.

I will be calling CL.  


[/font]

Hey Bryce, we agree with your assessment, faulty AAV just doesn't make sense. However, be ready for them to want to try changing your AAVs first thing - keep us posted!

Also like to know how you're like'n the See Level system?

[font size="3"]
Bryce,

I agree 100% with your thoughts, but there is one thing. When your sinks were gurgling were you filling from a sink or from the shower? Were you dumping 5 gallons at a time into the shower?

The roof vent for the gray tank is also the drain path for the shower. The shower P-trap connects to the vent pipe just above the tank; then the vent continues down into the tank. I think that if the shower is filled such that water is standing (after dumping 5 gallons) the water flowing down through the vent could actually block the vent thereby making it inoperative as a vent. Water would still drain from the shower, but the air in the tank would be forced up and out through the sinks. You would not normally see this because the shower head only allows 2 gal/min. If this is true the system could be working correctly with good AAVs and normal flow rates into sinks and shower. The 5 gallon dump would be an abnormal mode. I think a more realistic test would be to fill from the kitchen sink only and see if you can get to a full tank without gurgling from the bath sink.

I've been examining every angle I could think of to vindicate CW's fix, but I just can't square it. It's been suggested I test the AAV by hooking a garden leaf blower to the drain pipe and see if air is blowing back into the camper via the AAV. I'm a bit out of commission for a while (total knee replacement), but I plan to try it as soon as I can. It just doesn't make any sense. When I first started talking with Don at LL he agrees maybe the vent pipe had been pushed down too far. The conversation sort of died out when CW claimed to have fixed the problem. CW even claimed they reran my 5 gallon dump test into the shower with no sink gurgling. I was on my way out on a trip so didn't argue and it did work OK while on the trip.  I'm glad you came up with the same conclusion and I'll be interested in how you do with LL.
[/font]

I haven't performed the gray water test yet, but plan on doing so in the near future. Also, this is something that you may want to try: Crawl underneath and measure the height of the holding tank, then insert a tape measure into the vertical vent pipe and locate the lower edge of the pipe, note the measurement, then lower the tape to the bottom of the tank and note this measurement. This will give you an idea of how deep the vent pipe has been inserted into the holding tank.  

[quote timestamp="1427259652" author="@james" source="/post/8413/thread"]Also, this is something that you may want to try: Crawl underneath and measure the height of the holding tank, then insert a tape measure into the vertical vent pipe and locate the lower edge of the pipe, note the measurement, then lower the tape to the bottom of the tank and note this measurement. This will give you an idea of how deep the vent pipe has been inserted into the holding tank.  [/quote][font size="3"]Good idea![/font]

[font size="3"](This is Brenda.)

Bryce talked to Don at LL who was very nice, but as you predicted, immediately wanted to address the AAVs, but when Bryce questioned him on it, he didn't disagree nor try to pursue that idea.  The implied feeling was that they know the AAVs aren't the issue.  He did say that the vent can sometimes get pushed down and that we can try getting up on the roof and pulling it back up, which has us wondering how it's attached to the gray tank.  Also, the vent is straight (w/o bends) so we will definitely try measuring it as James suggested and then see if it can be pulled up.  Hopefully, if that works, we don't pull it too far and out of the tank ..... hence measuring it first.  Will report back.    (I say "we" but it'll be Bryce doing it all ..... bless him.)

As we are second owners, we have no warranty, but IF it was installed incorrectly in the factory, it sure seems like they should fix it.  But I guess that's the price we pay for the money we saved buying it used.  [/font]

[quote source="/post/8433/thread" timestamp="1427300098" author="@brenda"][font size="3"](This is Brenda.)

Bryce talked to Don at LL who was very nice, ........... 

He did say that the vent can sometimes get pushed down and that we can try getting up on the roof and pulling it back up, which has us wondering how it's attached to the gray tank.   Hopefully, if that works, we don't pull it too far and out of the tank ..... hence measuring it first. 
[/font][/quote][font size="3"]Note to Bryce: My early conversations with Don were similar. He said the vent stack was assembled on the chassis before the roof was put on. He thought maybe the roof installation could be pushing the vent pipe down into the tank. Before you pull up on the vent consider how the shower P-trap must be attached. The P-trap attaches to to the vent stack just above the floor. I think this must be a rigid T fitting with no vertical slip built it. I don't know how the vent attaches to the tank below. Does it have some kind of gasket slip joint? If not, how can it be pushed into the tank and what happens to the shower P-trap when this pushing occurs. We still don't know all we need to know.

Let me know what you think of my idea of overloading the vent with 5 gallon dumps into the shower. If you shine a flashlight down from the top of the vent while the shower is draining you can see water running into the vent stack. I think it could be clogging the vent and preventing air from entering the tank. The test would be filling the tank from the sinks.
[/font]

[p]I agree 100% with Charlie, if you try adjusting the vent pipe you will probably compromise the roof seal and the tank seal, and you may break the p-trap. Have you ever heard the old saying "Jump out of the frying pan into the fire", this would certainly be the case. I have a possible fix in mind, but it may not be feasible. If you could remove the abs pipe on the side of the holding tank you may be able to see, and perhaps even be able to correct the supposed problem. See attached, drill a series of vent holes as as shown in the drawing. It would require a jobbers drill bit(s) and maybe an extension. A long shot???[/p][p]
[/p][p][attachment id="660" thumbnail="1"][/p]

[quote source="/post/8451/thread" timestamp="1427324260" author="@james"][p] I have a possible fix in mind, but it may not be feasible. If you could remove the abs pipe on the side of the holding tank you may be able to see, and perhaps even be able to correct the supposed problem. See attached, drill a series of vent holes as as shown in the drawing. It would require a jobbers drill bit(s) and maybe an extension. A long shot???[/p][p]
[/p][p][/p][/quote][font size="3"]James,

An interesting idea, but I don't know how you would get access to the pipe. We just don't know the details of the tank/pipe interface. Just keep those brain cells firing!  8-)[/font]

[font size="3"]Update.  

Bryce measured the depth of the gray tank and it is about 6 inches deep.  By measuring the length of the vent pipe, he found it extends down into the gray tank, to approx. two inches from the bottom of the tank.  That makes it 4 inches too low/deep into the tank, meaning that the tank can only be filled 1/3 full before the problem starts.  The tank capacity is 32 gallons and it'll accept 10 gallons before the gurgling and spitting, so the numbers make sense.  

He could not pull the vent pipe up, per Don's suggestion.  So now he will have to pull out the gray tank and fix it ..... something he has yet to figure out how to do.  Remember we have no warranty.  Fortunately, IMO, he is smarter than the average bear and I have full confidence in his ability.  But what a pain!  He will call LL again in the morning to get more info on how the vent pipe is attached to the gray tank and hopefully get some advice on how to fix their mistake.

PS -- I showed him James' idea about drilling the holes and he is really intrigued.  Will report back again.  
 
(Sorry you have to put up with me being the go-between here.  He's more of a doer than a writer.) 


[/font]

[font size="3"]Brenda,

Thanks for the update and thanks to Bryce for his work. If his measurements prove correct they certainly explain what we're seeing. I'm thinking it should be RECALL time at LL.
[/font]

Thanks to all who are contributing to this thread. It may explain why our grey tank "filled" so quickly when taking showers while camping at the Grand Canyon in September.

Dropping the gray tank does look to be the best option for a permanent fix and not too bad of a job for someone with decent mechanical skills. I also like the idea of drilling vent holes into the pipe rather than taking a chance of cutting it off too short.

I was wondering if this problem were unique to 21-RBS. However, djsamuel has a 21-BHS, and he has a similar problem. Does this problem show up immediately or after some miles are put on the unit?

Not having any problems with gray tank on mine so far, knock on aluminum.

[font size="3"]Brenda,

[/font][font size="3"]Please pass on to Bryce: If you do decide to drop the gray tank, proceed with caution. I'd call Don and press for details on how the tank penetrations are accomplished. There are two, one on the street side for the vent/shower and another on the curb side for the two sinks. I'm hoping some sort of sliding gasket seal to allow dropping the tank, but I don't really know. Maybe you can convince Don to bring in his shop supervisor or an engineer to supply the details. You don't want to break something and be in worse shape.
[/font]

[quote source="/post/8470/thread" timestamp="1427376006" author="@charliem"][font size="3"]Brenda,

[/font][font size="3"]Please pass on to Bryce: If you do decide to drop the gray tank, proceed with caution. I'd call Don and press for details on how the tank penetrations are accomplished. There are two, one on the street side for the vent/shower and another on the curb side for the two sinks. I'm hoping some sort of sliding gasket seal to allow dropping the tank, but I don't really know. Maybe you can convince Don to bring in his shop supervisor or an engineer to supply the details. You don't want to break something and be in worse shape.
[/font][/quote][font size="3"]Yes, he crawled under it last night and was able to reach up and feel the type of seal and it is what you describe.  He feels confident that it's doable.  And I get to help ......  ???[/font]

[font size="3"]How lucky can a girl get??
[/font]

Brenda (and Bryce), I'm sure you guys plan to document any findings with photos, but wanted to mention because this problem may become a recall issue. Your efforts will be important.. thx. Be careful under there.

[font size="3"]Gray tank vent fixed!

It was exactly as we thought.  It took him about an hour and I didn't know he was working on it.... he just surprised me.   :D (My husband is brilliant.)  He cut off about 3 inches of the vent pipe.  Pictures and details coming as soon as I can figure out how to post them.  [/font]

Bryce = Wile E. Coyote,  super genious.

[quote source="/post/8500/thread" timestamp="1427410122" author="@brenda"][font size="3"]Gray tank vent fixed!

It was exactly as we thought.  It took him about an hour and I didn't know he was working on it.... he just surprised me.   :D (My husband is brilliant.)  He cut off about 3 inches of the vent pipe.  Pictures and details coming as soon as I can figure out how to post them.  [/font][/quote][font size="3"]Great news........I think. Certainly confirms what we've been postulating and absolves the AAVs. It's also great news that Bryce only took an hour to fix it, even without Brenda's help. However, now the rest of us have to decide if we want to take it on DIY, or start the battle with LL on warranty coverage  :(. Either way Bryce is due a big vote of thanks, as is his faithful reporter Brenda. Looking forward to pix and detailed step by step instructions  :)   :).
[/font]

And the collective wisdom of this forum is once again demonstrated in spades. Go team! 

I started this thread because I noticed this problem the first time I took the new trailer out for its " shake out. " I always believed it was a venting issue. I had a long talk with Don about it last February while we were camping in Florida. Is there any way we can print up this thread  and send it to Don and demand a recall??

I want this issue resolved BEFORE we go on our long summer excursion. I agree with the others that I don't want to DIY. It is their problem. They should be happy that we, all, have apparently solved the riddle.

What is the next course of action??

Big Thanks to Brenda and Bryce!

[font size="3"](Brenda said) Okay, the picture posting process here is difficult (why can't it be simple like Facebook??) so I'll do my best .....

(Bryce said)
Tools needed:  5/16 socket and ratchet, 3/8 end wrench, 3/8 socket w/ extension, measuring tape, saw to cut pipe, and a file.

Remove 4 bolts from gray tank gate valve.  Take note where the [font color="#e65219"]*[/font]seals on each side of the gate valve are located because they have to go back in the same place.
Remove 18 screws from straps.  Make sure you mark the position of the straps, so you can put them back correctly.
Cut or disconnect wires to tank [font color="#2919e6"]**[/font]sensor, if you have one.  (I had to redo some of the See Level wires that I had just installed last week.)
Pull tank down off of vent and drain pipes. (It's a tight fit on the vent pipe and won't fall down on its own.)
Measure how much to remove from vent pipe.  (I removed about 3 inches from ours.)  Vent pipe is closest to the dump valves.
The vent needs to go into the seal fitting a little more than 2 inches.
Cut pipe.  (I used a battery powered sawzall, but a hacksaw or any hand saw would work.)
Chamfer the edges around the outside of the cut pipe to make it easier to insert back into the seal fitting.
Remove burrs and sharp edges off the inside of the vent pipe also, to ensure that any gunk going down your drain doesn't get caught there and cause a backup.
Carefully push tank back up into position, making sure to get both pipes lined up into their rubber fittings.
Reinstall the gate valve.  Take care to get the [font color="#e63a19"]*[/font]seals in place and operate the gate valve to make sure it works properly.  (That was the trickiest part for me.) 
Bolt straps back into place and reconnect [font color="#2919e6"]**[/font]sensor wires.

The seal that holds the vent pipe is inside the tank, and because it needs that minimum of just over 2 inches of vent pipe to attach to, the vent pipe/seal still protrudes those 2(+) inches into the tank.

1st picture - the gate valve with the bolts removed
2nd picture - the straps
3rd picture - the vent pipe before shortening....it hung down that far into the tank.  

[attachment id="670" thumbnail="1"] [attachment id="671" thumbnail="1"]
[attachment id="672" thumbnail="1"]
[/font]

[quote source="/post/8509/thread" timestamp="1427420867" author="@gleamb"]What is the next course of action??[/quote]I'd say wait for the full details from Brenda (courtesy of her husband), give it to your closest LL dealer (or camping world) and then LL pays for them to do the work. If it only took an hour then I'm sure they won't hesitate to take care of it for you.

[quote source="/post/8518/thread" author="@tinkeringtechie" timestamp="1427427406"]

Quote from: @gleamb" timestamp="1427420867" source="/post/8509/threadWhat is the next course of action??

I'd say wait for the full details from Brenda (courtesy of her husband), give it to your closest LL dealer (or camping world) and then LL pays for them to do the work. If it only took an hour then I'm sure they won't hesitate to take care of it for you.[/quote][font size="3"]Yeah, assuming they have a proper lift to hoist up the trailer to work under, it'd be a snap for them to do.  It would probably cut the time in half.  

Good luck, everyone.  Let us know if you have questions.  [/font]

[p]Brenda & Bryce,[/p][p]
[/p][p]Great work guys![/p]

Yes, great work, and pictures to boot. You should get a paycheck from Liv'n Lite for your trouble shoot and solution.

I will be running my "Test" in a week or so when I pull the unit out of winter storage for a few "To Do" items (many from things learned on here).

She is still under warranty, so once the test is done, and if it is the case, she will be going in for repairs. That being said, it does not look that bad a job, but why do yourself what you can get others to do for free.

[font size="3"]Great work Bryce and Brenda. The pix came through fine. Question for Bryce: Having done this would there be any advantage to leaving the vent pipe long and drilling the holes as suggested by James?  Would the longer pipe help in reassembly? Also, did you look at the sink drain entry pipe? When it gets buried in water it might slow the sink drains somewhat while the levels equalize.
[/font]

[quote source="/post/8536/thread" timestamp="1427462309" author="@charliem"][font size="3"]Great work Bryce and Brenda. The pix came through fine. Question for Bryce: Having done this would there be any advantage to leaving the vent pipe long and drilling the holes as suggested by James?  Would the longer pipe help in reassembly? Also, did you look at the sink drain entry pipe? When it gets buried in water it might slow the sink drains somewhat while the levels equalize.
[/font][/quote][font size="3"](Bryce talking)  Thank you.  The sink drain was a little long, but I left it as is.  I could have take maybe 3/4 inches off, but felt it wasn't worth it.  I don't think you can pour water in fast enough for it to back up, as long as the vent works.  

I would not recommend drilling the holes because it would be just as much work as what I did.  It's such a long reach (about 2 ft.) that you might hit the seal by mistake, damaging it, causing it to possibly leak.  Dropping the gray tank was fairly simple, and less risky, IMO.  [/font]

If a standard brilliant spouse can do the work in about an hour, it should take a competent technician at an RV dealer less than a half day. Surely LL can spring for that under warranty/recall to fix a now known problem? 

Well.....not happy at all.  I replaced the AAW valve that Don sent me and did the gallon test again.  Now, at the 15 gallon Mark it does not stop draining like before.  Instead, it spits water all over the bathroom sink, gurgles and drains.  So I believe I have a working AAV but a vent pipe that extends too far into the tank, just like Brenda and Bryce detailed out in their previous posts.

A big THANKS  to Brenda and Bryce for their posts and detailed instructions!

I will call Don at LL in the morning to discuss what they will do from here and report back.  I know I could crawl under and do the fix but I really do not want to.

to be continued.....

[quote source="/post/8663/thread" timestamp="1427755019" author="@nd1979"]Well.....not happy at all.  I replaced the AAW valve that Don sent me and did the gallon test again.  Now, at the 15 gallon Mark it does not stop draining like before.  Instead, it spits water all over the bathroom sink, gurgles and drains.  So I believe I have a working AAV but a vent pipe that extends too far into the tank, just like Brenda and Bryce detailed out in their previous posts.

A big THANKS  to Brenda and Bryce for their posts and detailed instructions!

I will call Don at LL in the morning to discuss what they will do from here and report back.  I know I could crawl under and do the fix but I really do not want to.

to be continued.....[/quote][font size="3"]Exactly the symptoms that proceed from the now well known problem. Try to impress upon Don that he has a production problem that is not fixed by a new AAV. Try to get him to read this thread and get him to show it to his production manager, engineer, shop foreman, or someone close to the production process. And thanks for your work. Let us know what happens.[/font]

Yes,,I am planning on discussing and sending this post via email to him as a follow up to our conversation.  If we can get his production team to listen, perhaps others will not have to deal with this issue, and current owners will be covered via a recall of some sort.

[font size="3"]nd1979,

How were you filling the tank when you observed the problem? Were you filling from a sink, from the shower using the shower head, or dumping 5 gallons at a time into the shower? I need another data point. And good luck with LL.
[/font]

I was filling from the kitchen sink, like I did last time.  I wanted to perform the same test as before to see what would change. I was filling one gallon at a time.

[font size="3"]nd1979,

Thanks. That's what I needed to know. There is a scenario in which the problem might exhibit when dumping large quantities into the shower pan even if the vent is installed properly, but you didn't do that. If the problem shows up when filling from the sinks or the shower head the vent is definitely getting submerged in the tank. Can't believe LL hasn't acknowledged this one out yet. 
[/font]

nd, Don at LL seems like a great guy, keep us posted.

Will do.....thanks.

I just spoke with Don at LL and we had a good conversation.  He said that he had already spoken with production on this issue of the vent tube being too long.  He did ask me to send him a link to this thread, which I did, as the pictures that Brenda and Bryce posted are very informative.

All in all, I think that we are in good hands on this issue.  I will be taking my TT to my dealer sometime next week when I am back in the area.   Don asked me to go over this info with the dealer so that they would not have to re- diagnose the problem.  I will send this thread to them also.

I feel good that this will finally be fixed.

I sent the link to this thread to Don and to D&H last week.

Don had the ability to download all of the information. I hope he reads this forum. He would gain a lot of helpful info to help make these trailers all that they can be. Even with the shortcomings, we like our Camplite A LOT!!!

The company needs to keep improving their product and can do so by just paying attention to the feedback given here. 

How many other industries can have this type of feedback offered to them ??

Hope they find the time to read this stuff.

[font size="3"]Update on my gray water tank situation:
[/font]
[font size="3"]To recap: My sink drains would burp when gray tank was ? ½ full. Encountered this at least twice while camping. Sink drains would stop when gray tank was ? ½ full. Full tank should have backed up into shower basin, but did not. Verified problem by dumping 6 gallon jugs into the shower. Sinks burped at ? ½ full. After coordinating with LL, took CL to Camping World (CW) for warranty repair. Discussed theory that vent was protruding too far into tank.

CW "repaired" under warranty. I was told they replaced the AAV under bath sink and problem disappeared. CW techs said they see this quite frequently so they knew what to look for. They said they confirmed fix by dumping 5 gallon buckets into shower. This didn't quite fit my understanding, but left for a trip. I did not rerun the bucket test at this time.

No problems were noted on trip. The tank filled properly as indicated on the SeeLevel. The full tank backed up into shower as expected with no sink burping.

At home, while convalescing, I ran a test by filling from kitchen sink and shower head full open. The tank filled properly, no sink burping. Either the tank is fixed or the new AAV is bad. I checked the AAVs by pointing a leaf blower into the open gray drain and confirmed air was blowing out of roof vent and not out of either AAV. (Note to TinkeringTechie: Thanks for the idea, but too much air from the blower can empty sink p-traps even with vent working. What a mess!)

I had speculated that dumping large quantities of water into the shower might cause the water to block the vent, thereby forcing air back through sink p-traps. Doesn't happen. I reran the bucket test until the shower backed up several inches, with no burping sinks.

So this leaves me with four possibilities:

[/font][ol type="upper-alpha"][li][font size="3"]The tank  always was OK, but the experience on the first trip and the
subsequent bucket test definitely indicated a vent problem.[/font][/li][li][font size="3"]The original AAV really was bad, but this doesn't fit my understanding of the issue.[/font][/li][li][font size="3"]CW dropped the tank and cut the pipe, but told me the new AAV fixed the
problem. This is the only thing that makes any sense, but why would CW
not tell me the truth? Just a case of one shop tech not talking to
another, or something else? Nothing else fits observations.
[/font][/li][li][font size="3"]I really don't understand any of this and should kick back with a beer.[/font][/li][/ol][p][font size="3"]
[/font][/p][p][font size="3"]Whatever the answer, it all works now. I hate it when things fix themselves! Maybe it was all just a bad dream[/font][/p][font size="3"]
[/font]

Charlie  it's almost as bad as "intermittent" software failures.   I like D. a nice cold one.

Well, it seems like this would be a moment for one of my favorite saying, "Don't overthink it, no good can come of it"

Well, after discussing with my wife, we decided that I would do the repair.  I am glad that I did as the original install of the grey tank was installed haphazardly (sp?) at best and thus was subject to a hack repair job if not done with care.  (ie. holding strap slapped on and screws real crooked, almost missing the frame on one, real crooked tank, jammed in to trailer frame, etc.)

I ended taking off 3 inches as I erred on the conservative side because the vent has to protrude into the tank by 2", as Bryce pointed out.  It was also 85 deg so I allowed for cold weather contraction of the PVC.  There was excess sealant on the bottom of the vent, which is shown in the pictures below.

Overall, the "gallon" test went from around 14 gallons to 26 gallons before it started burping in the bathroom sink again.  It might fit another gallon as I was not sitting level in my driveway and tilted to the vent pipe side.

Overall, I am happy with the results.  On a side note, I thought that on the side of the tank it had a 30 gal capacity, which I will verify when I go back to where we store it.




[a href="http://s1209.photobucket.com/user/nd1979jk/media/image.jpg1_2.jpg.html"]
(http://i1209.photobucket.com/albums/cc381/nd1979jk/image.jpg1_2.jpg)
[img style="max-width:100%;" src="http://i1209.photobucket.com/albums/cc381/nd1979jk/image.jpg2.jpg"][/a]



[a href="http://s1209.photobucket.com/user/nd1979jk/media/image.jpg5.jpg.html"]
(http://i1209.photobucket.com/albums/cc381/nd1979jk/image.jpg5.jpg)
(http://i1209.photobucket.com/albums/cc381/nd1979jk/image.jpg3.jpg)

[quote source="/post/9770/thread" timestamp="1429724363" author="@nd1979"]Well, after discussing with my wife, we decided that I would do the repair.  I am glad that I did as the original install of the grey tank was installed haphazardly (sp?) at best and thus was subject to a hack repair job if not done with care.  (ie. holding strap slapped on and screws real crooked, almost missing the frame on one, real crooked tank, jammed in to trailer frame, etc.)

I ended taking off 3 inches as I erred on the conservative side because the vent has to protrude into the tank by 2", as Bryce pointed out.  It was also 85 deg so I allowed for cold weather contraction of the PVC.  There was excess sealant on the bottom of the vent, which is shown in the pictures below.

Overall, the "gallon" test went from around 14 gallons to 26 gallons before it started burping in the bathroom sink again.  It might fit another gallon as I was not sitting level in my driveway and tilted to the vent pipe side.

Overall, I am happy with the res32 gals and the fresh capacity at 30gals.ults.  On a side note, I thought that on the side of the tank it had a 30 gal capacity, which I will verify when I go back to where we store it.

[/quote][font size="3"]Glad you undertook the project and it worked out. On your third and fourth pictures there appear to be short pipes projecting from the tank. Are these actually short collars into which the pipes from above insert when the tank is in place? If so, where are you assuming the 2 inch insertion is measured? It looks like the vent pipe could fully engage the collar without projecting appreciably into the tank itself?

I assume the other collar is the kitchen/bath sink drain. Penetration depth is not as critical on this one.

FWIW  LL advertises the gray tank capacity at 32 gals and the fresh capacity at 30gals. My gallon at a time test produced 33 gals gray before backup into the shower and 28 gals fresh before dry pump. These seem consistent. There are two gals left unusable in the fresh tank.
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Hi Charliem....the collar is really not where the sealing takes place.  If you put your finger inside the collar, an inch down you can feel a smaller diameter seal, which does the actual sealing.  The collar diameter that protrudes from the tank is slightly larger by about 1/8 inch or so.  Measuring from the top of the collar to the inner seal is 1 & 7/8ths or about 2 inches.

I suppose that not reaching the inner seal could be ok if you wrap the pipe with something, enlarging the diameter so it would seal on the outside collar.  Just a guess though.

Yes the other one is the drain and has the same inner seal.  It was tough to slide off as my tank was jammed up against the frame.  I wanted to show others the position of it in case there is a need to know.

Quote from: @nd1979" timestamp="1429752122" source="/post/9802/threadHi Charliem....the collar is really not where the sealing takes place.  If you put your finger inside the collar, an inch down you can feel a smaller diameter seal, which does the actual sealing.  The collar diameter that protrudes from the tank is slightly larger by about 1/8 inch or so.  Measuring from the top of the collar to the inner seal is 1 & 7/8ths or about 2 inches.

[font size="3"]Thanks for the update. Would you guess the position of the sealing ring itself is inside the tank? If so, how far? I'm trying to understand how far into the physical tank envelope the vent pipe must extend. That determines the height of the dead air space at "tank full".

BTW I sure hope LL is paying attention to this thread. Lots of good work being done by guys like you and Bryce.
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Hi Charlim.....I believe it was about an inch as I kept going back and forth on how much I wanted to cut off.  I actually did the whole install twice as it was real tough to calculate how much I would be "in the tank" and past the inner seal.  I think that I might be an inch past the inner seal and therefore losing capacity.  Overall, I am happy with the less capacity, but others may not and may want to cut it even shorter.  My fear was cutting too short do to a measurement error.  I have done too many of those in the past!

[quote source="/post/9797/thread" author="@charliem" timestamp="1429747984"]My gallon at a time test produced 33 gals gray before backup into the shower[/quote]I've seen you mention the shower backing up before and keep forgetting to comment... Based on my observations of the plumbing in my 21BHS this shouldn't be possible. The shower on mine uses one of those fancy one-way valves (the name is escaping me at the moment) that shouldn't let anything go back the other way. It's not a conventional P-trap that just stops gasses. I wonder if some of the odor issues you're experiencing could be caused by this... if it's letting water through it might also let gasses. On mine when the sink backs up, the shower stays completely dry.

[font size="3"]TT,

Maybe not so good. As an old Chinese prof once said to me: Pees not to confuse me, my mind made up is.

I think I've read about such a device somewhere, but I've no indication there is one in the 21RBS. Something about a dry P-trap that doesn't freeze. I've always expected the shower to backup first since it's the lowest point. How do you know you have one and where is it? Visible?

I did at one point have a sink backup before the shower and that's what set me off on the long vent problem trail. That happened with only a partially full tank so I knew there was something amiss. If you think about the vent pipe protuding into the tank you'll see how a sink might be the first thing to backup. It's just another version of the burping sink symptom.

I checked the grey tank with your leaf blower suggestion, even to the extent of blowing the water out of the sink traps, and saw no indication of air escaping from the shower. Admittedly I wasn't looking for it, so I'll pay more attention if I experience the odor problem again. Have you ever run a gallon a a time test through a sink and checked vs you SeeLevel?
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[quote source="/post/9836/thread" timestamp="1429814196" author="@charliem"][font size="3"]I think I've read about such a device somewhere, but I've no indication there is one in the 21RBS. Something about a dry P-trap that doesn't freeze. I've always expected the shower to backup first since it's the lowest point. How do you know you have one and where is it? Visible?
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Here's the device: http://www.hepvo.com/

I saw it under the shower when I was installing my surge protector. It explains how the shower drain can be so close to the regular floor height. Not much room for a conventional p-trap.

[quote source="/post/9836/thread" timestamp="1429814196" author="@charliem"][font size="3"] Have you ever run a gallon a a time test through a sink and checked vs you SeeLevel?
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I haven't but the SeeLevel gets to the high 80's or low 90's before it backs up (into the sink). I mounted the sensor at the top of the tank, so I'm pretty confident that I'm getting full capacity.

[quote source="/post/9829/thread" timestamp="1429808897" author="@tinkeringtechie"]

Quote from: @charliem" timestamp="1429747984" source="/post/9797/thread

[/quote]This is true on the 16DB as well. The sink backs up when full but the showers stays dry.

[quote timestamp="1429815908" author="@tinkeringtechie" source="/post/9838/thread"]Here's the device: http://www.hepvo.com/

I saw it under the shower when I was installing my surge protector. It explains how the shower drain can be so close to the regular floor height. Not much room for a conventional p-trap.
[/quote][font size="3"]Thanks TT and Whoofit,

Well, that makes sense, and probably a good idea. So that means I could have a sink backup without a shower backup, but the SeeLevel would show full. All of my recent gallon tests have been through the shower so I would not have seen the effects. My odor problem, when it occurred once, was under the kitchen sink. Ya think I forgot that old fish sandwich?   (puke)
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Ran the "Test" today, and...

Ours has the problem.

Got 19 Gallons in then the bathroom sink started sending up a geyser.

Good news, it is still under warranty, will be making contact with Livin Lite tomorrow as to what to do next.

What would we do with out all the smart people on here.

Hey everyone!
I have a customer that has brought his trailer in to our shop to get this problem taken care of.
I am in the warranty Pre-Auth Process with Don at LL, I was just wondering what you think the flat rate would be to fix this issue.
We are sure that this will not be the only one and I want to cover my grounds before I fully sink in to this warranty claim.
Thank you!
Have a great day!
Happy Camping.
-Kyle

Quote from: @clrv" timestamp="1430409497" source="/post/10168/threadHey everyone!
I have a customer that has brought his trailer in to our shop to get this problem taken care of.
I am in the warranty Pre-Auth Process with Don at LL, I was just wondering what you think the flat rate would be to fix this issue.
We are sure that this will not be the only one and I want to cover my grounds before I fully sink in to this warranty claim.
Thank you!
Have a great day!
Happy Camping.
-Kyle

[font size="3"]Hey Kyle,

Good to have you check in. It indicates either you and/or your customer and/or Don has been following this thread. Any way, it's good. Of course we can't set you pricing, but I'd start by assuming you'll first run a test to confirm the customer's complaint. Then remove the gray tank completely and cut off the vent pipe to prevent it from protruding too deeply into the gray tank. Remount the gray tank and retest.

Come back soon. We love to have dealer participation on a non commercial basis.  :)
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As mentioned a few pages back it took about an hour for another person to drop the tank measure (twice) and cut (once), re-install the tank.

I do agree with the test first and confirm as I measured 18-19 US gallons (1 us gallon = 3.78 litres) which is short of the 32 US gallons indicated as the grey water tank capacity for the 21RBS. This jives with what many say as they seem to fill up at 1/2 to 2/3 capacity.

Kyle, i haven't de-winterzed my 16TBS yet so I haven't run the capacity test. However, if it ends up that I need to drop the tank and cut the pipe, I will definitely figure on at least a couple of hours. I have wiring to the tank monitor to unfasten and refasten; I'll have to rig up a way to hold the tank while I remove the bolts, I will be very careful and take my time with measuring, cutting, and re-sealing the vent pipe; and I don't even know how to disconnect and reconnect the drain line. It will be a big, heavy job. Even though our CL is in warranty, I have to do it myself because our dealer's service dept. would mess it up and I want to make sure it's done right. Here's hoping the test will show our 2015 CL is ok and has full grey tank capacity. 

Well, we did the capacity test for the grey tank this evening and all went well up to about 16 gallons. Then the sink stopped draining.  >:D So, we have only about half the capacity because the vent pipe is too far into the grey tank. I sure appreciate the info on this forum that identified that as the problem. But pardon me while I "vent" a bit and complain bitterly that the sloppy or ignorant assembly at LL is going to cause me some extra work tomorrow right at time we are trying to finish getting ready for our first camping trip of the season. l wish this were the only thing I've had to fix from sloppy assembly, but it joins the list of wiring and sealing and cleaning problems that simply should not happen at this price. Ok, rant over. I'll go look at the photos earlier in this thread and drop the grey tank.  

Hi Merlin.....sorry to hear that you have the same problem.  Just a couple of points to help.  If you have the original tank monitor probe wires, they are tough to unscrew as they put some red junk on mine.  I needed two thin wrenches to unscrew it, one to hold the bottom nut from turning.

The brackets might be screwed in crooked so it would be good to know which one came from where when you go to put them back.

The gray drain valve seals, one on both sides are a real pain and it is best to have more wiggle room to make sure that they are not squished in any way when you re-install. To do this, I unhooked the bracket holding the drain tube to the frame (2 bolts).  I also clamped the two halves to the gray valves together once the rubber seal were in place until I could slide the bolts back in that assemble the valve.

My tank was jammed close to the frame so I really had to wiggle it off the vent and drain rubber boots.  It did not fall down freely after the brackets were removed.
I hope this helps.

Thanks for the extra tips. I just got out from under the trailer looking the situation over and that info really helps. 

[quote source="/post/10243/thread" timestamp="1430538270" author="@nd1979"]Hi Merlin.....sorry to hear that you have the same problem.  Just a couple of points to help.  If you have ................................brackets were removed.
I hope this helps.[/quote][font size="3"]This kind of help and feedback is what makes this forum so great.
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So I dropped the grey tank, using the excellent steps and notes from Bryce and nd1979. It helped to have my wife on one end to lower it down straight. I measured the vent pipe carefully to get maximum capacity in the tank and used the holes in the pipe method suggested by charliem (?). I was not confident I could saw straight in that somewhat confined space, so I drilled 5 holes using a 3/8 bit with the top edge of each hole right on my line. Re-assembly took 3 hands on the outlet end to get the drain back together and I only had 2 since and my wife was holding up the other end of the tank, so that was tricky. In the end we went from 16 gallons to 29 gallons grey tank capacity, so it was worth doing! I hope the holes don't get clogged up, but if they do someday I'll cut the pipe off. The downside is that I spent all afternoon on the job. Counting getting the tools out, taking a short break for my neck from crawling around on the ground under the trailer, doing all the unfastening, measuring, drilling, and refastening, cleaning up, putting tools away, and doing the re-test, I can't imagine completing the job in less than about 4 hours in a home driveway setting. By the end of the afternoon, I was spitting nails at LL, so they will certainly hear from me about their sloppy assembly work. Otherwise, on to more fun mods. The warm weather has us eager to camp and we're heading out soon. 

By the way, the pipe extended 2 1/2 inches too far into the grey tank. Since the tank is 5 inches deep at the vent, it makes sense that we had about 1/2 capacity as first assembled. 

Hi Merlin...I know it was a pain but like myself, you know it was done correctly when you do it yourself and with the great help of your wife, I might add!  I am glad that you were able to go all the way to 29 gallons.

By the way, A funny thing happened while removing mine.  I was alone, laying under it and finally wiggled it free....The happiness quickly faded away as the tank landed on my nose...ouch to say the least!

I want to thank you all for all the input in fixing this problem. I will be taking my trailer back to my original dealer ( 4 hours away !!! ) because I just don't trust a nearby Camping World to do the fix correctly. That's a LOT of hours and miles and gas. I am not real happy about all of this.
Now, I don't want to stir the pot......BUT......do any of you think that the vent pipes are set too deep into the BLACK tanks and maybe the Fresh Water tanks??!!!!
 If the black tank isn't vented properly, then it would only do so when you flush the toilet, letting odors up into the trailer instead of up a vent pipe. Or am I just getting carried away??
We are planning a two month trip this summer, and I don't want ANY surprises.

Gleamb, Since we fixed our gray tank, we haven't had any more problems.  But we've never filled our fresh tank more than about 75%, and our black tank has never come even close to capacity.  We aren't worried about it.   It has been working beautifully.

I believe it is impossible to have an improperly vented fresh water tank to begin with. The vent is molded into the plastic hatch as part of the fill line that does not protrude into the tank at all. A little screened vent hole right next to the fill port. Suppose it could be blocked at the hatch..

You'll get some spitting just before it filled when under pressure from a city line. This is true in ours at least.

OK. We seemed to fix the grey tank problem. My rig is up at D & H right now, and they have shortened the vent pipe, as discussed in this tread. It is under warranty.

BUT WAIT !!!!  THERE"S MORE  !!!

I asked the tech working on my trailer if there was a problem with the grey tank vent being too long, WOULDN'T IT FOLLOW THAT THE VENT IN THE BLACK TANK IS TOO LONG ALSO ???!!!
Unfortunately, he said he can't " fix something that isn't broken, under warranty," and I would be on the hook for the three hours labor.

My thought is that Don Neufelder had emailed me that it was a problem with an installer and has been rectified at the factory. That same workman also installed the vent in the BLACK TANK !!??

Am I opening up a can of worms here? With the trailer at my dealership, it sure would be nice to fix this now, if indeed there is a problem.

Thoughts ??
.

Quote from: @gleamb" timestamp="1434144269" source="/post/12243/threadOK. We seemed to fix the grey tank problem. My rig is up at D & H right now, and they have shortened the vent pipe, as discussed in this tread. It is under warranty.

BUT WAIT !!!!  THERE"S MORE  !!!

I asked the tech working on my trailer if there was a problem with the grey tank vent being too long, WOULDN'T IT FOLLOW THAT THE VENT IN THE BLACK TANK IS TOO LONG ALSO ???!!!
Unfortunately, he said he can't " fix something that isn't broken, under warranty," and I would be on the hook for the three hours labor.

My thought is that Don Neufelder had emailed me that it was a problem with an installer and has been rectified at the factory. That same workman also installed the vent in the BLACK TANK !!??

Am I opening up a can of worms here? With the trailer at my dealership, it sure would be nice to fix this now, if indeed there is a problem.

Thoughts ??
.

[font size="3"]You raise a valid point and one that I had also though of. The black tank geometry is different from the gray tank in that the black tank vents itself every time the toilet is used. If the vent pipe extends too far into the tank any trapped air will exhaust up through the toilet when it is flushed. If the tank is heavily used and fills up through normal usage you might observe some burping when you flush. If you have something like SeeLevel installed and can correlate the burping to a partially filled tank that might be evidence of a vent problem. I have a SeeLevel and the black tank flusher so I can fill the tank without operating the toilet flush valve. I have done this until water is standing in the toilet pipe with no indication of trouble. To be honest I really didn't pursue this too far because I really didn't want to find another problem  :-[  Old timers (before the advent of reliable tank level indicators) will advise "when the toilet burps it's time to empty." If the vent pipe is properly installed the vent pipe and the toilet stem should both submerge at about the same time. [/font][font size="3"] The only other symptom I can think of is toilet burping when you know the tank is only 2/3 full or so. That would indicate the vent pipe is submerged and gasses are building up until the toilet is flushed.

So in summary, yes, there is a potential problem here. But until I encounter trouble I'm not going to worry about it. It may be that I lucked out and others will have problems. I guess we can then start a new thread and work through it all over again  :'(
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[p]As part of my research that will hopefully lead to a purchase of a CL TT, I've read this thread with great interest.[/p][p]
[/p][p]A friend of mine has an older non-CL TT.  While he hasn't had the issue with the vent stack being placed to low into the gray water tank, he has had trouble with air admittance valves.  He has replaced all of his sink drain traps and AAVs with Hepvo valves. Since the upgrades, he has had no problem with grey water drains.
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[a]http://www.hepvo.com/[/a]

[font size="3"]Deja vu.   ;)[/font]

Oops.  Sorry about that.  Hadn't reached that thread yet.

[font size="3"]Update: Mystery solved: Problem returns.

An update on my gray water tank problem. I originally suspected the gray vent pipe was pushed too far into the tank. We all discussed and cussed the issue. Some brave souls (Brenda/Bryce and nd1979) even removed the tank and fixed the problem. I took my CL to CW for warranty, they verified the problem, replaced an Air Admittance Valve, and claimed success. We all said no way, but the CW techs assured me they saw and fixed this problem all the time. Well, the burping sink problem was fixed, but I've had consistent sewer odor problems ever since. That should have been my first clue.

Someone on the Lance Owners forum mentioned a similar odor problem and suggested a bad AAV. He said the cheap AAVs from RV stores can easily leak from the gray tank. That would explain my observations. He suggested a better AAV from Home depot:

[a href="http://www.homedepot.com/p/STUDOR-Redi-Vent-with-ABS-Adapter-Valve-20362/203158640"]http://www.homedepot.com/p/STUDOR-Redi-Vent-with-ABS-Adapter-Valve-20362/203158640[/a]

I bought two and replaced both kitchen and bath. Wala! Odor seems to be gone, but my original burping sink is back. Science and technology overcomes fear, superstition, and most RV techs!!!  >:D  I'm really ticked because now the trailer warranty is gone and I'll have to fix or pay for the tank removal and repair myself. When in doubt, trust yourself!! Guess I'll review the posted instructions when I get home. Grrrrrrrr.

The AAV replacement is an easy fix that I'd recommend to all with a few minutes time and $36.
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Charlie,
It doesn't hurt to make the case that the problem that existed under warranty and hasn't been successfully resolved. I would ask Don to stand by the product and their warranty.

[quote timestamp="1445003573" author="@gbpack" source="/post/16082/thread"]Charlie,
It doesn't hurt to make the case that the problem that existed under warranty and hasn't been successfully resolved. I would ask Don to stand by the product and their warranty.[/quote]Agreed, but I'm a bit leary of taking it back to CW. If they thought they fixed it by replacing the AAV, who knows what they might do to it if I told them to drop the tank and cut the vent pipe. I'm listening to my inner self saying "If you want it done right, do it yourself." And I'm going to have to remove the straps anyway to insulate the hot/cold water pipes so I might as well do it myself. I guess that's why I'm retired  8-)

I agree with you Charlie as my tank was installed very poorly, with brakets mis-aligned and screws crooked and barely hitting the frame.  I did not want some "tech" just slapping it back in, so I decided to fix it myself.

Understood, but I was talking about CL. They should stand by their product. Still, if I could do the fix myself I would do the same. Joan

[font size="3"]Yes, I agree CL should cover the cost until it's fixed. But my nearest fix it shop is the CW where the boobs assured me they fixed it by replacing the AAV. If the fix was easily verified or visible I would take it back and make them fix it, but it's not. CW is 45 minutes away so I'd have to drive the CL there, leave it, drive back home, drive back to pick it up, and tow it back home. Four trips. Then I'd have to test the tank, and if it wasn't fixed, start all over again. If I do it myself the cost will be minimal and it will get done right. My time is free now and I've got some other stuff to do at the same time. Unfortunately, with this industry, it's true more than ever: "If you want it done right, do it yourself."
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It appears that my 2015 14DBS has the same issue, finally got around to installing my See Level Gauges a couple months ago and just got back from a 5 week cross country camping trip. It appears I am getting a 58% fill on my grey water tank all others are fine, although the most I have put into my black water is 50%. Thanks all for the great info, now just have to figure out when I want to drop tank to fix.

After 8659 views of this topic, let me wrap up my experience. After my toilet "erupted" twice, when I pressed the foot valve, it became VERY clear to me that the black tank had a vent pipe that was too long, also. The gases had no where to go but into the toilet!! After going round and round, I told Don at CL and D&H that I wanted the tank dropped and that if I was wrong, I would pay for the labor. I WAS RIGHT. CL payed for the fix, and my toilet works just fine now. 
Just an aside....nobody ever called Don to tell him how they loved their trailer. He had an impossible job. Throughout my dealings with him, he was always fair and professional. My sense of it is that Thor made life hard for him, and he is no longer there. I hope the new guy treats warranty issues like Don did. 
Adios, Don. My best wishes to you. You had a very tough job to do, and you did it very well. New guy......weld issues??!! Oh my!!