[p]So, I've had the rig up at the house for about 2 weeks, plugged in to shore power on a 15 amp circuit. No problem, all it's doing is charging/maintaining the battery.[/p][p]
[/p][p]Moved it down to the barn this afternoon, and plugged into a 20amp circuit I've used for the very same purpose before.[/p][p]
[/p][p]Only now, it trips the circuit breaker at the panel in the barn (not the TT).[/p][p]
[/p][p]I don't have any documentation (tried the owner's manual - nada) on what circuit breakers are what in the TT. It seems like the one to the far left, which is a 30 amp breaker, is the main. Then the other 5 breakers are a mix of 15 and 20's. Everything is fine until you turn on the last 15 amp circuit, all the way on the right side. Dunno what that is for.[/p][p]
[/p][p]Clever troubleshooter that I am, I figure one of two things:[/p][p]
[/p][p]1) Something different at the barn since the last time the TT was there.[/p][p]
[/p][p]2) Something happened to the TT between the house and the barn, specific to that last circuit. I'd need to know what's on it to further investigate.[/p][p]
[/p][p]Of course, a key troubleshooting step would be to bring the TT back to the house and put it on the circuit it just came off. If it now failed, I'd know it was something with the TT.[/p][p]
[/p][p]Anyway, looking for some kind of chart that tells what breaker it what on a 14DBS.[/p][p]
[/p][p]In the meantime, I've disconnected the battery to keep it from drawing all the way down.[/p][p]
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[font size="3"]Pin,
I don't have a 14 so I can't check it out, but there's no guarantee they're all wired the same anyway. Is the 20A breaker it trips a GFCI or is the outlet a GFCI outlet? If neither it sounds like you've got a problem. One way to isolate would be to turn on all TT breakers except that last one and see what doesn't work. The breakers should be AC (20A), WH if you have the electric option, outlets, micro, converter, and fridge. Since you only have 5 something is combined. Try that and let us know.
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[quote source="/post/6820/thread" timestamp="1424045056" author="@charliem"][font size="3"]Pin,
I don't have a 14 so I can't check it out, but there's no guarantee they're all wired the same anyway. Is the 20A breaker it trips a GFCI or is the outlet a GFCI outlet? If neither it sounds like you've got a problem. One way to isolate would be to turn on all TT breakers except that last one and see what doesn't work. The breakers should be AC (20A), WH if you have the electric option, outlets, micro, converter, and fridge. Since you only have 5 something is combined. Try that and let us know.
[/font][/quote][p]I found the docs on the converter on the LL website, and it confirmed the far left breaker is in fact the MAIN. With just the main on, and nothing but the far right 15 amp on, it immediately trips at the panel. No GFCI between the trailer and the panel.[/p][p]
[/p][p]Don't get too hung up on the breaker count - I wasn't paying that close attention. I do not have an electric WH.[/p][p]
[/p][p]I have this nagging suspicion that that 15 amp circuit is the battery charger and the fault is something wrong with the battery. I have no factual basis for this assertion, it's just my luck that way.[/p][p]
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With a combination of a the very cryptic notations on the door of the breaker/fuse panel and my outlet tester along with some patience, I figured out my 16TBS is wired like this, going from left to right as you face the panel:
30A Main
15A Fridge
20A A/C
15A Outlet in WH compartment for optional heating element
15A Microwave
15A Outlets
15A Converter
I agree with Charliem that there is no reason to believe that the 14DBS is wired this way, or that even any other 16TBS is either. But, I agree that the way to test which circuit is causing the breaker to trip is to turn them off one at a time. If there any chance the barn outlet is wired with ground fault and the house outlet is not? If it does turn out to be a ground fault, good to know now!
Per your last post, disconnect the battery and try again?
[quote source="/post/6822/thread" timestamp="1424047219" author="@sandroad"]With a combination of a the very cryptic notations on the door of the breaker/fuse panel and my outlet tester along with some patience, I figured out my 16TBS is wired like this, going from left to right as you face the panel:
30A Main
15A Fridge
20A A/C
15A Outlet in WH compartment for optional heating element
15A Microwave
15A Outlets
15A Converter
I agree with Charliem that there is no reason to believe that the 14DBS is wired this way, or that even any other 16TBS is either. But, I agree that the way to test which circuit is causing the breaker to trip is to turn them off one at a time. If there any chance the barn outlet is wired with ground fault and the house outlet is not? If it does turn out to be a ground fault, good to know now!
Per your last post, disconnect the battery and try again? [/quote][p]Ooh. So, this suggests several things:[/p][p]
[/p][p]1) The converter could well be the rightmost breaker. Not only is it all the way on the right, but 15amps.[/p][p]
[/p][p]2) I'm only missing but the one extra outlet for the WH, which may not even have been possible in a '13 14DBS.[/p][p]
[/p][p]3) It allows me to go back and see if everything is 15amps except the AC.[/p][p]
[/p][p]4) I'm not so great at counting or remembering some stuff.[/p][p]
[/p][p]The b of it all is, once I've confirmed everything but the last, how can I confirm that the last breaker is in fact the battery recharger ? I think perhaps trying that last bit of leaving it disconnected may be the thing. If the battery is disconnected and the barn panel breaker doesn't trip, and then when connected it does, that would not only confirm the circuit, but also indict the battery itself, no ?[/p][p]
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[font size="3"]Without the electric WH you're OK with only 5 breakers. With all breakers on except the left one, check everything else like micro, fridge, outlets, and AC for operation. The AC is certainly the 20A breaker. To verify the fridge ckt is working you can check the socket behind the fridge with a plugin lamp. The absence of the converter/charger can be verified by measuring the voltage at the battery. Less than 13.0 means the charger is not connected and charging. Then disconnect the battery and try again with the left breaker on. Report results.
Question: Is there anything else on the 20A breaker in the barn? It mystifies me that the 20A trips and not the 15A breaker in the TT. Breakers can be funny, especially as they age, but it's still strange. Additional loads on the barn breaker would explain it. Again, make sure there are no GFCI breakers or outlets involved.
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Quote from: @charliem" source="/post/6824/thread" timestamp="1424050558[font size="3"]Without the electric WH you're OK with only 5 breakers. With all breakers on except the left one, check everything else like micro, fridge, outlets, and AC for operation. The AC is certainly the 20A breaker. To verify the fridge ckt is working you can check the socket behind the fridge with a plugin lamp. The absence of the converter/charger can be verified by measuring the voltage at the battery. Less than 13.0 means the charger is not connected and charging. Then disconnect the battery and try again with the left breaker on. Report results.
Question: Is there anything else on the 20A breaker in the barn? It mystifies me that the 20A trips and not the 15A breaker in the TT. Breakers can be funny, especially as they age, but it's still strange. Additional loads on the barn breaker would explain it. Again, make sure there are no GFCI breakers or outlets involved.
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[p]Well, it's a barn that was self-wired by a fellow who fancied himself...well, he thought he knew what he was doing. Which sometimes he sort of did.[/p][p]
[/p][p]I've had to fix multiple circuits and plumbing issues while we've been here, and every time I turn something up, I scratch my head.[/p][p]
[/p][p]This is a circuit at the barn that mixes lighting and outlets. So...basically, all bets are off.[/p][p]
[/p][p]I'm still thinking something dodgy with the battery. The thing sat on the dealer's lot for 10 weeks for service, so I'm quite sure it has been drained to zip and beyond...perhaps I'm paranoid about battery failure.[/p][p]
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[font size="3"]Even if the battery is totally dead the charger should protect itself. If the battery is reversed it will blow the reverse protection fuses. If the charger itself is defective it should blow the 15A breaker before it blows the 20A in the barn. If , as you say, the barn wiring is suspicious and might include other outlets and lights, I'm suspecting the barn circuit. If the battery is truly dead the charger will draw lots of current, but still should pull the 15A before the 20A. Try another outlet.
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[quote source="/post/6827/thread" timestamp="1424052043" author="@charliem"][font size="3"]Even if the battery is totally dead the charger should protect itself. If the battery is reversed it will blow the reverse protection fuses. If the charger itself is defective it should blow the 15A breaker before it blows the 20A in the barn. If , as you say, the barn wiring is suspicious and might include other outlets and lights, I'm suspecting the barn circuit. If the battery is truly dead the charger will draw lots of current, but still should pull the 15A before the 20A. Try another outlet.
[/font][/quote]I *think* I can do that, with an extension cord that shouldn't blow because nothing is actually on but the battery. I would hate to have to actually move the thing up to the house and back (see the thread about backing up and cameras and wives and radios and...I just want to avoid the conflict episode...)
I wonder why the same circuit you used before in the barn now trips the breaker when you plug in? Is the battery any good at all; can you turn on the lights with the shore power not connected? A shorted battery could pull a lot of amps (or none), but as Charliem noted, the 15A breaker in the TT should trip before the 20A in the barn. All in all, I'm going with something goofy/changed in the barn circuit. I hope using another outlet in the barn fixes the issue.
Lights do go on when the trailer is "connected" but the breaker says it is just on battery.
I hate uncertainty, especially when all the explanations are "something's really screwy, we just don't know where".
[quote source="/post/6832/thread" timestamp="1424053136" author="@sandroad"]All in all, I'm going with something goofy/changed in the barn circuit. I hope using another outlet in the barn fixes the issue.[/quote][font size="3"]Merlin,
We have to be careful how we talk about something goofy in the barn. After all, Pinstriper's in there :D
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I resemble that remark !
Got up last night to chase some coyotes away, noticed someone left a light on down at the barn. Went down to address it and figured while I was there I would check whether the breaker pops with the battery disconnected. It does not. So it is only popping when the converter is talking to a connected battery. Still odd that the battery will run the lights if I reconnect it.
It was 2am and I was out in my skivvies so I didn't bother to try another circuit in the barn.
The question is whether I just need a new battery after it's say fully discharging at the dealer's service lot for months at a time, several times, or if this indicates another problem.
No electrician here but if the battery is really dead could it simply be that the converter is drawing more Amps then the barn circuit can deliver? Wasn't it mentioned on a different thread that the converter could draw up to 45 amps?
Oh wait, I see that was mentioned earlier, nevermind.
[font size="3"]Pinstriper,
Your battery is not fully discharged as evidenced by its ability to light the lights. Another interesting experiment would be to verify the converter, turned on and operating without the battery, will light the lights. That would verify the converter's OK. The converter can deliver 45A at 12-13V to the battery, but will only draw about 5A from the 120V line doing it. I'm still looking for an answer in the barn. If the 20A breaker is already loaded with other stuff the extra converter load may be enough to trip it. Although infrequent, breakers can get old and tired. It may not be able to handle the full 20A rating anymore. Try another circuit between coyotes.
As to the life and reliability of a mistreated battery, anyone's guess. No easy way to know, but I doubt it's your immediate problem.
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Dang. I was really hoping for another solution besides "hire an electrician" or "take the RV in for service"...
I'll do the light check later, and also another circuit.
There's no draw on anything. This is the only thing that's on. Except for the LED spotlights. I figure 20 amps should be able to handle 25w total from the lights.
So here's the info so far as I read it:
1. Camplite used to work fine connected to shore power at both the house and the barn.
2. Now the Camplite works fine at the house connected to shorepower, but at the barn the shorepower trips an AC breaker in the barn.
3. The barn AC breaker trips only when the battery in the Camplite is connected
4. No other draw is on the barn circuit with the AC breaker that trips
5. No breakers trip in the Camplite, unless the coyotes get inside and pee
6. The only notable event between items 1 and 2 is that the Camplite was at the dealer with a discharged battery for an extended stay
7. There are no GFCI circuits in the barn
8. The battery will still light the lights in the Camplite when on battery power alone
Further tests to come:
1. Will the converter light the 12V lights when connected to shorepower in the barn, but with the battery disconnected?
2. Will we get a selfie of Pinstriper in his skivvies doing these tests at night?
3. Will another AC circuit in the barn work as shorepower without tripping a breaker?
4. Can the battery be removed entirely, taken up to the house, and fully recharged there to test it out?
Conclusion to date: Gremlins 1, Pinstriper 0, but something is goofy at the barn?
[quote source="/post/6925/thread" timestamp="1424221476" author="@sandroad"]So here's the info so far as I read it:
1. Camplite used to work fine connected to shore power at both the house and the barn.
2. Now the Camplite works fine at the house connected to shorepower, but at the barn the shorepower trips an AC breaker in the barn.
3. The barn AC breaker trips only when the battery in the Camplite is connected
4. No other draw is on the barn circuit with the AC breaker that trips
5. No breakers trip in the Camplite, unless the coyotes get inside and pee
6. The only notable event between items 1 and 2 is that the Camplite was at the dealer with a discharged battery for an extended stay
7. There are no GFCI circuits in the barn
8. The battery will still light the lights in the Camplite when on battery power alone
Further tests to come:
1. Will the converter light the 12V lights when connected to shorepower in the barn, but with the battery disconnected?
2. Will we get a selfie of Pinstriper in his skivvies doing these tests at night?
3. Will another AC circuit in the barn work as shorepower without tripping a breaker?
4. Can the battery be removed entirely, taken up to the house, and fully recharged there to test it out?
Conclusion to date: Gremlins 1, Pinstriper 0, but something is goofy at the barn?
[/quote][p]You've got your facts all wrong.[/p][p]
[/p][p](2) I don't know if bringing the CL back to the house if it would still work. [/p][p]
[/p][p](6) It came back from the dealer, worked at the house, then stopped working at the barn.[/p][p]
[/p][p]Tests:[/p][p](1) Unknown, stand by.[/p][p](2) No.[/p][p](3) See (1)[/p][p](4) I dinna hae a charger at the house. I dinna ken how to do the rest in Scottish, so I'm just doing it with scotch.[/p][p]
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Tough to follow this one. I better quit while I'm behind! Be super extra careful when hooked up to the barn until you know what's going on.
I probably missed this, did you replace the 20A breaker in the barn? Could be a weak breaker.
[quote source="/post/6930/thread" timestamp="1424228612" author="@pinstriper"][p]You've got your facts all wrong.[/p][p]
[/p][p](6) It came back from the dealer, worked at the house, then stopped working at the barn.[/p][p]
[/p][/quote][font size="3"]Unless I missed it, you didn't tell us this before. For me it completely exonerates the battery and converter. Check one more time to verify the battery is not reversed, then to re-quote Merlin: Something goofy in the barn.[/font] [font size="3"]Maybe consult with Jim Beam?
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[quote timestamp="1424267023" source="/post/6934/thread" author="@exploringcarolina"]I probably missed this, did you replace the 20A breaker in the barn? Could be a weak breaker.[/quote][p]Negative, I'll do work on an existing circuit, but my electrical work stops before opening the panel.[/p][p]
[/p][p]I do intend trying another circuit at the barn, I just didn't get a chance to.[/p][p]
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Quote from: @exploringcarolina" source="/post/6934/thread" timestamp="1424267023I probably missed this, did you replace the 20A breaker in the barn? Could be a weak breaker.
I've had this happen before. Definitely try another circuit.
Doug
Finally got the opportunity to try another circuit. All is well on the other circuit, so I guess I'm calling an electrician about the breaker. Sigh.
Oh well. In the pantheon of outcomes that suck, paying an electrician is waaaay preferable to hauling the rig in for service.