As mentioned in my New Member's thread, we take delivery of our 21RBS on January 30th. We purchased the RBS last Friday at D&H RV in Apex, NC - about 2.5 hours from our home. We were very impressed with the down to earth staff and their facilities - clean, well equipped, but certainly not a huge mega RV center with lots of overhead costs. Zero sales pressure - the same guys that show and sell you the RV also work on them - they know them inside out. They only carry a few lines, but really like and focus on the CampLite line and know a lot about the history of the company - to include the Thor assimilation. Thought it best to start a thread on the particulars of our camper here, sort of a "journal" if you will, of how things develop over time. I hope to start adding pictures in a few weeks once it's home.
Ours has the XL Package which includes a few nice options (awning, 13.5 A/C, power vents, tank level monitors, leather couch, wood-like floor, and LP tank covers) - but we did find that the XL pkg varies slightly month to month with LL? Two items that are shown as XL that did not come with ours are the 22" flat screen TV and the dual source water heater, ours is LP only. We did get a little price cut on the TT and D&H will be installing a black water flush kit at no charge for us. I am now discussing adding a conversion kit for the water heater - which run about a $100 for the hardware. The fold out dining table is not very functional and too flimsy so I will have to build one specific to the RV and how we plan to use it. More on that later. Linda has a lot of great ideas for making the TT a comfortable and efficient home and I will be leaving all of that in her capable hands, of which she's done a splendid job for 36+ years!
One really nice feature included on ours is the rear 3' deck - which is the 2 main frames extended out (cut longer) with welded aluminum cross slats to create a very simple and solid rear deck. I plan to hard mount our Honda 3000w generator and eventually a dual 6v battery bank on that deck. Depending on the weight distribution and space, I may even move the LP tanks back there?
Speaking of which, I have no immediate plans to use WDH or sway bars. LL recommends against them and D&H RV agreed 100%. Since they sell and install these products D&H could easily do the job and make a few bucks in the process, so I'm going with their advice. Also, my F150 manual states that a WDH shouldn't be needed towing anything under 5000lbs. The F150 has the Max Tow package with some sort of anti-sway feature built in, which I need to find out exactly what that does? Of course, the final verdict on this discussion will be clear once I begin towing. Should I find that I need either or both, I will gladly add them. More on that later.
Well that's where we're at for now - so far, so good!
Alex & Linda
[quote source="/post/6100/thread" timestamp="1421772918" author="@surfsup"]I plan to hard mount our Honda 3000w generator and eventually a dual 6v battery bank on that deck. Depending on the weight distribution and space, I may even move the LP tanks back there?
Speaking of which, I have no immediate plans to use WDH or sway bars. LL recommends against them and D&H RV agreed 100%. Since they sell and install these products D&H could easily do the job and make a few bucks in the process, so I'm going with their advice. Also, my F150 manual states that a WDH shouldn't be needed towing anything under 5000lbs. The F150 has the Max Tow package with some sort of anti-sway feature built in, which I need to find out exactly what that does? Of course, the final verdict on this discussion will be clear once I begin towing. Should I find that I need either or both, I will gladly add them. More on that later.
Well that's where we're at for now - so far, so good!
Alex & Linda
[/quote]
Probably not a good idea. That's a lot of weight behind the axles and will probably reduce your tongue weight into the unstable zone. Try to keep your tongue weight at least 10-15%. More won't hurt if your vehicle can handle it, but less will make the rig unstable.
[quote source="/post/6100/thread" timestamp="1421772918" author="@surfsup"]Also, my F150 manual states that a WDH shouldn't be needed towing anything under 5000lbs. The F150 has the Max Tow package with some sort of anti-sway feature built in, which I need to find out exactly what that does?[/quote]
Some 21BHS owners have reported weights over 5,000lbs, so you're close enough that you should at least consider it. I'm guessing your manual says that you SHOULD use WDH over 5,000lbs which you might very well be especially with dual batteries and a generator.
As for the "anti-sway feature" it's normally just some extra programming in the car's stability control system that senses sway and then distributes brake and engine power to compensate. It might help in an emergency, but it won't do much for regular driving.
hey tinkeringtechie, appreciate you taking time to share your valid concerns. I guess I need to reiterate what I said already - and that is - I will definitely (and with pep in my step) procure a WDH and/or any sway equipment necessary, once I know I need them. In fact, I double doubted (maybe triple doubted?) the dealer during this portion of our discussions and he didn't budge one bit - unequivocally not necessary?! OK, I said - I'll give it a go. Now my plan here is to do this critical test in phases. Phase one being the 2.5 hr ride home with a totally empty 21RBS. Subsequent test phases as I add or alter "stuff", etc. It'll be fun. As far as the plans on the back deck, it seems to me (per my repeated walkthroughs) that the lions share of the 21RBS's storage volume is dead center and fwd of the axles - as such I was actually thinking it'd be needful to shed some weight to the back - not vise versa? We'll see? I'm fairly certain the generator will be perfect (172lbs with fuel) - but the batteries, yep maybe too much weight? Here again, we'll see? Per carefully crunching all my numbers, I have decent excess capacity remaining in both TV and TT to adjust as needed - and I live very close to a nice set of truck scales to verify my efforts. I think you're spot on about the Ford's anti-sway, I've yet to learn about that feature. Thanks again!
Yep, you were right, Ford F150 Anti-Sway video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G1leczQxgEE
[font size="3"]Surfsup,
Glad to see you thinking this through. Like TinkeringTechie, I was a bit concerned when I read your recent post. You're the first owner I know of with the extended rear platform on a 21er so I'll be interested in your results. I had my rear bumper beefed up to carry bikes, but it didn't extend the size any.
On sway, I'll make a few points:
[ol type="decimal"][li][font size="3"]Trailer sway is almost entirely a function of trailer loading. The target of 10% to15% of total trailer weight on the tongue is a good safe place. Weight added to the rear of a 21er will reduce tongue weight by about ½. That is, 10# added to the rear will reduce tongue weight by 5#, while adding 10# to the total trailer weight. This eats away quickly at the desired 10%-15% ratio.[/font][/li][li][font size="3"]The truck total tow rating is based on truck frame/brake/hitch capacity as well as payload capability. First, the truck has to be able to accelerate and stop the total TT + loaded TV weight, or Gross Combined Vehicle Weight. Second, the truck and axles have to be able to carry the payload which includes passengers, stuff in the bed, and TT tongue weight. This is the limit usually encountered first in towing. Third, if tongue weight significantly unloads the steering axle, tongue weight must be shifted back to the steering axle and the TT axles. This is the function of the WDH. I believe the common practice of rating a truck relative to allowable towing capacity makes the tacit assumption that the desired tongue weight ratios are present. [/font][/li][li][font size="3"]Lastly, I am very skeptical about claims of active sway controls in TVs being able to control trailer sway. The Ford video almost admits this, but not quite. I think a better approach would be for the truck to lightly apply trailer brakes when sway is detected, but that's a whole other engineering problem.
[/font][/li][/ol]
With the F150 you probably can get away without WDH with the bare TT. As you add stuff you'll quickly approach one or more limits. Most folks find they prefer the added comfort and confidence of the WDH, even if they don't technically "need" it. If you do opt for a WDH, check out my thread on bent couplers. The coupler on the 21er is a weak point in LL's design.[/font]
[font size="3"]Good luck and keep us informed of your adventures.[/font]
1. Most people have no idea what their trailer weight is, much less their tongue weight. If they do, even fewer know how, or have much ability to influence the tongue weight. They pack stuff where it fits, clap their hands together and say "off we go !". I'm not casting any aspersions on anyone other than on the general public of nitwits who are probably also texting on their iphones while towing over the weight limit and over the speed limit. Occam's Razor.
2. True that. Except I believe the first limit encountered is probably volume. Folks load up the trailer, and the bed, until they can't fit anything else inside, and then run out of truck rope.
C. I have been told, by folks who probably don't know, but they sounded convincing so I'll say it anyway, that one of the recovery techniques is to apply power so that the forward vector takes over and stabilizes the tow. I believe this intuitively, and also because I saw a 20 year old video from a tire company that says if you have a blown-out tire, hit the gas to overcome the sideways forces. The trick is, "What next, hotshot ?" There's the rub. You still have to slow the thing down, and they recommend coasting, not braking, until you can find a spot to pull over. This makes sense - recover control, then maintain control with SMALL adjustments. But...
4) I'll bet a root beer float that the manual and/or state law mandates WDH long before 5,000# is reached. There's a number out there for sure, but it's lower than 5k.
May all your tows be uneventful.
[quote source="/post/6119/thread" timestamp="1421808783" author="@pinstriper"]
C. I have been told, by folks who probably don't know, but they sounded convincing so I'll say it anyway, that one of the recovery techniques is to apply power so that the forward vector takes over and stabilizes the tow. I believe this intuitively, and also because I saw a 20 year old video from a tire company that says if you have a blown-out tire, hit the gas to overcome the sideways forces. The trick is, "What next, hotshot ?" There's the rub. You still have to slow the thing down, and they recommend coasting, not braking, until you can find a spot to pull over. This makes sense - recover control, then maintain control with SMALL adjustments. But...
[/quote][font size="3"]I'll agree that acceleration is one way out, but then what? You do have to bleed off speed eventually, before hitting that next curve or wall. The concept is to put tension on the hitch and "stretch" out the sway, much as you stretch a leg cramp. The preferred way is to apply trailer brakes manually. That corrects the sway and bleeds off speed. That's why you always keep the brake controller lever at the ready, but I admit it's hard to think that fast when bad things are happening. I was concerned when the Ford video said the truck, upon detecting sway, cut the engine power. Without some trailer braking that might exacerbate the sway. At least they don't apply TV brakes, I hope.
[/font]
I did just pull up the specs on the F150.
It appears that without weight distributing hitch the max tongue weight is 500 lbs. That jumps to 1,130 lbs with the w/d hitch.
My 21BHS has a tongue weight of about 625 lbs.
Just something to consider.
[quote source="/post/6120/thread" timestamp="1421809870" author="@charliem"][quote source="/post/6119/thread" timestamp="1421808783" author="@pinstriper"]C. I have been told, by folks who probably don't know, but they sounded convincing so I'll say it anyway, that one of the recovery techniques is to apply power so that the forward vector takes over and stabilizes the tow. I believe this intuitively, and also because I saw a 20 year old video from a tire company that says if you have a blown-out tire, hit the gas to overcome the sideways forces. The trick is, "What next, hotshot ?" There's the rub. You still have to slow the thing down, and they recommend coasting, not braking, until you can find a spot to pull over. This makes sense - recover control, then maintain control with SMALL adjustments. But...
[/quote][font size="3"]I'll agree that acceleration is one way out, but then what? You do have to bleed off speed eventually, before hitting that next curve or wall. The concept is to put tension on the hitch and "stretch" out the sway, much as you stretch a leg cramp. The preferred way is to apply trailer brakes manually. That corrects the sway and bleeds off speed. That's why you always keep the brake controller lever at the ready, but I admit it's hard to think that fast when bad things are happening. I was concerned when the Ford video said the truck, upon detecting sway, cut the engine power. Without some trailer braking that might exacerbate the sway. At least they don't apply TV brakes, I hope.
[/font][/quote][p]You know, when the trailer hopped off the ball, I *DID* have the presence of mind to NOT hit the brakes on the TV, and instead grab the controller and mash on the trailer brakes. I let the trailer being us to a stop, which it did partly because of the trailer brakes, and partly because the tongue jack was grinding itself down. Better the jack than the frame.[/p][p]
[/p][p]And hey, it kept the trailer from impacting the TV.[/p][p]
[/p][p]I wish I could say it was anything other than reflex, and instinct. There was no problem-solving involved, no time.[/p][p]
[/p]
Appreciate the responses by all, I'm in information overload now, haha!
Hmmm, but if all of you are right then that leaves a few lingering implications... LL either doesn't have a clue about towing physics - and/or they're trying to cover their butts on a frame that they feel won't survive the stresses associated with tow assist devices?
[quote timestamp="1421815041" author="@surfsup" source="/post/6125/thread"]Appreciate the responses by all, I'm in information overload now, haha!
Hmmm, but if all of you are right then that leaves a few lingering implications... LL either doesn't have a clue about towing physics - and/or they're trying to cover their butts on a frame that they feel won't survive the stresses associated with tow assist devices? [/quote][p]Well....yeah. LL is like any other manufacturer in that they really don't give a rat's ass about anything they don't have a liability about.[/p][p]
[/p][p]I mean, yeah, they might, and are probably good people and all, but in the end, they make business decisions, and those decisions are governed by money, which is what liability is all about. So you'll never pin them down any other way.[/p][p]
[/p][p]That all having been said, and written, and read....[/p][p]
[/p][p]There is an inherent problem with the segment we are talking about. Ultra light weight leads you to (among other things) aluminum frame, which is fine as far as it goes, until one day you get the bright idear to say "hey, we have the frame strength, and the overall weight, how big can we make this thing ?" and some yahoo nerd with more AutoCad skills than brains says "I can make a 40 footer and still keep the whole thing under 5 kilo-pounds" and The Boss says "prove it" and he does, and then the one guy with any sense says "what about tongue weigh ?t" and The Boss says "what the freaking heck is tongue weight ?" and he tells him so The Boss says "start trimming the thing back 1 foot at a time until the tongue weight is around 750#". And they do, and they come up with the 21RSB, or whatever.[/p][p]
[/p][p]And someone in the shop says "hey, what if they want to, you know, take stuff along on their camping trip ?" and The Boss says "you just stow that crap, bucko, we're not responsible to anything but the dry weight ! Keep your opinions and fancy book learnin' to yerself !"[/p][p]
[/p][p]And then Marketing steps in and says "couldn't we weasel out of something or other, weight-wise ?" and they come up with something called the "BASE CONFIGURATION", which they don't even make, much less ship or sell, but it has all the heavy stuff, like batteries, and propane tanks, and appliances, and light bulbs, and paint taken out, because that makes it lighter, and the tongue weight less (which still nobody understands yet anyway). And that goes on the sticker and the website and stuff.[/p][p]
[/p][p]All the while, there's some dude in the corner thinking to himself "the force at the coupler is way too much for aluminum, we should drill a coupla holes and put 2 more bolts in the thing, but look at what happened to the guy who brought up the tongue weight issue" And he wisely keeps his mouth shut because he's still paying off the quad and the old lady is knocked up and he's got bills to pay.[/p][p]
[/p][p]In short. TANSTATMTV.[/p][p]
[/p][p]
[/p]
[quote source="/post/6125/thread" timestamp="1421815041" author="@surfsup"]Appreciate the responses by all, I'm in information overload now, haha!
Hmmm, but if all of you are right then that leaves a few lingering implications... LL either doesn't have a clue about towing physics - and/or they're trying to cover their butts on a frame that they feel won't survive the stresses associated with tow assist devices? [/quote][font size="3"]You present a troubling, but valid observation and I don't think anyone here really knows the answer. You will find lots of speculation about bending the aluminum frame elsewhere on the Web, but I've never found real evidence of this. LL has never directly addressed this issue. I have documented deformation of the ball coupler on the 21s, but I attribute this to improper application of the coupler itself. The supplied coupler, meant to be welded, is bolted with four bolts through the top. This is inadequate for any high stress such as experienced with a WDH. Strangely enough, LL supplies a larger coupler, including side bolts, on their toy haulers. I have replaced the OEM coupler and added two side bolts to correct problem. This more closely approximates the mounting method for which the coupler was designed. So far I've not observed any deformation of the frame itself, it's pretty stiff, but it would be nice to have an official engineering response from LL.
Bottom line: I feel that the minimal WD required to smooth out the ride on a pickup is entirely within the frame capabilities of the CL, but the coupler does need work. Not a hard job and LL should pick up on it. Other than that we're still waiting for LL's input.
[/font]
[quote source="/post/6125/thread" timestamp="1421815041" author="@surfsup"]Appreciate the responses by all, I'm in information overload now, haha!
Hmmm, but if all of you are right then that leaves a few lingering implications... LL either doesn't have a clue about towing physics - and/or they're trying to cover their butts on a frame that they feel won't survive the stresses associated with tow assist devices? [/quote]I think LL deceptively and dangerously publishes empty weight and tongue weight figures, asterisks notwithstanding.
For instance, 440 lbs tongue weight for a 21BHS. It was on the basis of that that we figured a Ford Flex rated at 450 lbs tongue weight would be adequate. As it turns out, our normally loaded 21BHS did come in just under the 4,500 limit that Ford published for total weight with a WDH, but way over the 450 lbs - by 175 lbs or so.
Still, reinforced by CanAm our rig tows very well with its EZLift Elite WDH combined with a Husky sway control. I can tell you with the sway control backed off too far, we can definitely feel a subtle sway at times. Nothing dangerous to date, but the sway control keeps everything feeling much tighter and more stable.
As an aside, our Flex also advertises sway control built in.
Thanks for the additional responses, my fellow campers. As I read through your many words, sift out and focus on your core concerns driving your responses, I've gone full circle back to my first 2 posts in this thread. I.e, carefully adding weight to the rear deck will go a long way towards calibrating the optimum % weight on the hitch. Which then goes full circle to my decision to hold off on WDH or anti-sway gear until I have time to evaluate my assumptions.
I will be honest and say that some of your posts certainly gave me pause and I thank you all for that moment of objectivity. So this morning, rolling back through and revisiting the years of research that has brought us to this decision, I still feel the LL/CL 21RBS is the best TT on the market for us and our TV (that we can afford). We proceed onwards.
Livin Learn, I always say. Let's roll!
Quote from: @gwbushhog" timestamp="1421863301" source="/post/6135/threadLivin Learn, I always say. Let's roll!
yep..
[quote source="/post/6125/thread" timestamp="1421815041" author="@surfsup"]Appreciate the responses by all, I'm in information overload now, haha!
Hmmm, but if all of you are right then that leaves a few lingering implications... LL either doesn't have a clue about towing physics - and/or they're trying to cover their butts on a frame that they feel won't survive the stresses associated with tow assist devices? [/quote]I just want to clarify that I was actually being a bit of a smart ass above... but then again, in time, I could become a self made prophet and LL hater #1? As for right now - I really don't have any presumptions that LL is clueless about their craft. In fact, after 36 years of working on USMC/USN aircraft, I don't see building these products as rocket science or anything close to some kind of Herculean engineering feat. You take some pretty good tradesmen (good campers) who understand trailering concepts, throw in some good quality materials, work out some jigs and fixtures for assembly - and good RVs will happen. As I'm told, LL takes about a week to build one 21RBS, whereas Jayco builds about 30 or 40 a day of each model they sell. Eventually I may be proven totally wrong about LL, but for now that and our recent QA audit, speaks volumes to me.
QuoteAs I'm told, LL takes about a week to build one 21RBS, whereas Jayco builds about 30 or 40 a day of each model they sell.
Who told you that hogwash ? Whoever it was, stop listening to them. They're an idiot.
If that statement were true, there'd only be 52 new trailers a year. This makes it sound like it takes 12 minutes to build a Jayco, compared to a week for a Camplite.
For reference, by the end of the war, the Kaiser shipyard was producing one Liberty Ship a day.
That doesn't mean the cycle time to produce one ship was one day. They had a cycle time of somewhere between 2 and 3 weeks.
Comparing cycle time and throughput is a classic apples/oranges situation. Now, you will hear or read that you can't compare apples and oranges, and that's not true. You CAN, so long as your intent is to deceive.
It is as dishonest as comparing statutory tax rates to effective tax rates and also taxes paid. At best, it is innocent ignorance. At worst, and far more likely, is intellectual dishonesty.
[quote source="/post/6149/thread" timestamp="1421893685" author="@pinstriper"]
QuoteAs I'm told, LL takes about a week to build one 21RBS, whereas Jayco builds about 30 or 40 a day of each model they sell.
If that statement were true, there'd only be 52 new trailers a year. This makes it sound like it takes 12 minutes to build a Jayco, compared to a week for a Camplite.
[/quote]If we assume LL and Jayco only have one employee each building RVs... then yea. But I think the point is the smaller company has to take more time to build each RV because they don't have an army of employees spread across several assembly lines. Also, stapling wood is a whole lot quicker that TIG'n aluminum.
Not hogwash at all - from Jayco's own promotional video, 32 units a day (less than 7 hours each) and this is just one assembly line.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jXMJrRQ3SVk
[quote timestamp="1421816403" author="@pinstriper" source="/post/6127/thread"][quote timestamp="1421815041" author="@surfsup" source="/post/6125/thread"]Appreciate the responses by all, I'm in information overload now, haha!
Hmmm, but if all of you are right then that leaves a few lingering implications... LL either doesn't have a clue about towing physics - and/or they're trying to cover their butts on a frame that they feel won't survive the stresses associated with tow assist devices? [/quote][p]Well....yeah. LL is like any other manufacturer in that they really don't give a rat's ass about anything they don't have a liability about.[/p][p]
[/p][p]I mean, yeah, they might, and are probably good people and all, but in the end, they make business decisions, and those decisions are governed by money, which is what liability is all about. So you'll never pin them down any other way.[/p][p]
[/p][p]That all having been said, and written, and read....[/p][p]
[/p][p]There is an inherent problem with the segment we are talking about. Ultra light weight leads you to (among other things) aluminum frame, which is fine as far as it goes, until one day you get the bright idear to say "hey, we have the frame strength, and the overall weight, how big can we make this thing ?" and some yahoo nerd with more AutoCad skills than brains says "I can make a 40 footer and still keep the whole thing under 5 kilo-pounds" and The Boss says "prove it" and he does, and then the one guy with any sense says "what about tongue weigh ?t" and The Boss says "what the freaking heck is tongue weight ?" and he tells him so The Boss says "start trimming the thing back 1 foot at a time until the tongue weight is around 750#". And they do, and they come up with the 21RSB, or whatever.[/p][p]
[/p][p]And someone in the shop says "hey, what if they want to, you know, take stuff along on their camping trip ?" and The Boss says "you just stow that crap, bucko, we're not responsible to anything but the dry weight ! Keep your opinions and fancy book learnin' to yerself !"[/p][p]
[/p][p]And then Marketing steps in and says "couldn't we weasel out of something or other, weight-wise ?" and they come up with something called the "BASE CONFIGURATION", which they don't even make, much less ship or sell, but it has all the heavy stuff, like batteries, and propane tanks, and appliances, and light bulbs, and paint taken out, because that makes it lighter, and the tongue weight less (which still nobody understands yet anyway). And that goes on the sticker and the website and stuff.[/p][p]
[/p][p]All the while, there's some dude in the corner thinking to himself "the force at the coupler is way too much for aluminum, we should drill a coupla holes and put 2 more bolts in the thing, but look at what happened to the guy who brought up the tongue weight issue" And he wisely keeps his mouth shut because he's still paying off the quad and the old lady is knocked up and he's got bills to pay.[/p][p]
[/p][p]In short. TANSTATMTV.[/p][p]
[/p][p]
[/p][/quote]WoW!!! did you have that whole conversation in your head in living color?! It was specatcular!
Great disussion by all on the WDH, coupler and frame considerations for 21ers. As a trailer manufactuer, I'd imagine it would be difficult to committ to a one size fits all response to the topic given the variables involved with road/weather conditions, driving techiques/choices, TV variations in weight/wheel base/tire qualities/inflation, TT loading etc and how those variables directly relate to the myriad of driver performance expectations of their entire rig.
I tend to agree with a comment posted that there is no substitute for personal experience towing and figuring out, incrementally and conservatively, what you and your rig are capable of and comfortable with in various conditions. Again, great ideas and experiences shared that offer new 21ers like me informed opinions to compare my observations to. Keep sharing!
[quote source="/post/6159/thread" timestamp="1421897773" author="@boondockler"]Great disussion by all on the WDH, coupler and frame considerations for 21ers. As a trailer manufactuer, I'd imagine it would be difficult to committ to a one size fits all response to the topic given the variables involved with road/weather conditions, driving techiques/choices, TV variations in weight/wheel base/tire qualities/inflation, TT loading etc and how those variables directly relate to the myriad of driver performance expectations of their entire rig.
I tend to agree with a comment posted that there is no substitute for personal experience towing and figuring out, incrementally and conservatively, what you and your rig are capable of and comfortable with in various conditions. Again, great ideas and experiences shared that offer new 21ers like me informed opinions to compare my observations to. Keep sharing![/quote][p]This. Totally this. And the key IMO is the conservative approach. You don't start at or above spec and say "Hey, let's see what happens."[/p][p]
[/p][p]Case in point - I think Fast Eddie's Flex isn't up to the job. But so did he, and so he had some custom mods to his TV to address the specific gap. So all good.[/p][p]
[/p][p]It would be quite dangerous for someone to see his signature and say "hey, I got a Flex, I can do it too", without also committing to the same modification, chopped on by an engineer who knows what he's about.[/p][p]
[/p]
[quote source="/post/6155/thread" timestamp="1421895481" author="@surfsup"]Not hogwash at all - from Jayco's own promotional video, 32 units a day (less than 7 hours each) and this is just one assembly line.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jXMJrRQ3SVk[/quote][p]So, yeah. Proves the point. 7 hours each. They don't all start on the same day they are manufactured. They have - wait for it - around 32 units in process at any given point in time, assuming a steady state. Assuming they have a single 8 hour shift, there's a time of day where they have a few more, or a few less.[/p][p]
[/p][p]A LL unit can spend one week to go all the way through the line, and if the line is sized right, they could produce 100 a day. Or 10. Or 2. [/p][p]
[/p][p]Cycle time is only related to throughput if you also know the size of the backlog, or WIP/backlog, ie. Little's Law.[/p][p]
[/p][p]Your statement compared throughput per day of the entire line for Jayco, to a cycle time for a lot size of 1 of 1 week for LL.[/p][p]
[/p][p]Comparing them on the basis of their throughput on each side would, I suppose, tell you something about...I dunno. Size ? Gross sales ? Market share ?[/p][p]
[/p][p]Comparing them on the basis of their unit manufacture cycle time would, I suppose, tell you something about...I dunno. Unit cost ? Quality ? Manufacturing efficiency ?[/p][p]
[/p][p]I don't think either figure is meaningful to the consumer, frankly. Which begs the question of why it's part of their marketing/promotion.[/p][p]
[/p][p]But anyway, comparing the manufacturers on the basis of one's cycle time versus the other's daily output is, in fact, hogwash. Not legit at all.[/p][p]
[/p]
Uhm Yea, per the video... Jaycos start and roll out in 6-7 hours. Same day. I fully understand economy scale manufacturing concepts, but thanks anyway.
P'strip, S'up......you both miss the point of the video, which is to showcase Jayco's Amish workforce, a people with an unbelievable work ethic. It is this Jayco claim that distinguishes them from the herd, a branding difficult today in Thor's vast land of RV . Never did talk things Jayco with reps or owners where this point, "made by the Amish' was overlooked. It would be akin to Livin Lite failing to mention 'all aluminum'.
The Jayco video is showcasing the Amish workforce. Ever see a LL video with their workforce busy building a trailer? Found lots of aluminum skeletons, finished models or dealers' video tours, but no actual manufacturing at LL's facility. (If you know otherwise, please send link.) Otherwise, what definitive conclusions can be drawn by the naive public as intended by the manufacturers in their promotion of product via their very different video approaches? Perhaps one utilizes a superior workforce, the other, superior materials? Or is this yet one more apples to orange comparison? Me thinks so.
It has been said that often we miss the forest for the trees. Seems that expression might apply.
GWBushhogwash
Seeing the materials used in the Jayco trailer make me appreciate the LivinLite trailers even more.
[quote timestamp="1421948917" source="/post/6176/thread" author="@djsamuel"]Seeing the materials used in the Jayco trailer make me appreciate the LivinLite trailers even more. [/quote]Yeah, after watching I thought to myself "this is a promotional video?... it makes me NOT want to buy their trailer"
Before we took delivery, my wife and I took a tour of the LL factory. It was great fun to see the "insides" so to speak. They took us to every stage of manufacturing except the paint room. The tour started with welding the floor frame and installing the axles. The superstructure was welded up next. The skeleton then went to another building for electrical and plumbing, then to another location to get the appliances installed before the insulation, walls and finishing touches were completed. In each building, the technicians worked on one trailer for multiple days. There was some assembly line aspect to it, but it was not really mass production. They were also doing custom work. Looking inside the walls and structure was especially interesting for the techie in me. I noted the type and gauge of wire, the sizing of plumbing, and quality of joints and splices. Nothing I saw worried me or caused me to cancel my order! My only concern was with the general lack of cleaning up all the aluminum dust, slag, and chips from the welding, sawing, and drilling. That was confirmed as a problem in my own 16TBS which came with that stuff everywhere I looked behind panels and fixtures (and shorted out at least one light). I'll still take that over wood and staples any day. And my only regret after the tour was that my dealer didn't let me know how much LL is able and willing to customize their trailers. It goes far beyond the limited list of options the dealer showed us (but then we ended up with a really lousy dealer, so I should have known).
[quote source="/post/6173/thread" timestamp="1421944938" author="@gwbushhog"]P'strip, S'up......you both miss the point of the video, which is to showcase Jayco's Amish workforce, a people with an unbelievable work ethic. It is this Jayco claim that distinguishes them from the herd, a branding difficult today in Thor's vast land of RV . Never did talk things Jayco with reps or owners where this point, "made by the Amish' was overlooked. It would be akin to Livin Lite failing to mention 'all aluminum'.
The Jayco video is showcasing the Amish workforce. Ever see a LL video with their workforce busy building a trailer? Found lots of aluminum skeletons, finished models or dealers' video tours, but no actual manufacturing at LL's facility. (If you know otherwise, please send link.) Otherwise, what definitive conclusions can be drawn by the naive public as intended by the manufacturers in their promotion of product via their very different video approaches? Perhaps one utilizes a superior workforce, the other, superior materials? Or is this yet one more apples to orange comparison? Me thinks so.
It has been said that often we miss the forest for the trees. Seems that expression might apply.
GWBushhogwash [/quote][p]So, I'm trying to keep a low profile on this topic going forward, after I shot for pithy and came up with jackass.[/p][p]
[/p][p]Now's as good a time as any to admit I didn't even watch the video. I was too caught up in what sounded like someone handing SU a line of bull.[/p][p]
[/p][p][Heads back to his chair in the corner]
[/p]
[quote source="/post/6177/thread" timestamp="1421963383" author="@tinkeringtechie"][quote source="/post/6176/thread" timestamp="1421948917" author="@djsamuel"]Seeing the materials used in the Jayco trailer make me appreciate the LivinLite trailers even more. [/quote]Yeah, after watching I thought to myself "this is a promotional video?... it makes me NOT want to buy their trailer"[/quote]Just watched it, and I have to agree 100%.
DAMN that's a LOT of wood!
Hey pinstriper, no harm - no foul my friend. We're just sitting around the internet camp fire learning what we can from each other. I hope to have a root beer float with you out on the trail some day ;)
Quote from: @gwbushhog" source="/post/6173/thread" timestamp="1421944938P'strip, S'up......you both miss the point of the video, which is to showcase Jayco's Amish workforce, a people with an unbelievable work ethic. It is this Jayco claim that distinguishes them from the herd, a branding difficult today in Thor's vast land of RV . Never did talk things Jayco with reps or owners where this point, "made by the Amish' was overlooked. It would be akin to Livin Lite failing to mention 'all aluminum'.
The Jayco video is showcasing the Amish workforce. Ever see a LL video with their workforce busy building a trailer? Found lots of aluminum skeletons, finished models or dealers' video tours, but no actual manufacturing at LL's facility. (If you know otherwise, please send link.) Otherwise, what definitive conclusions can be drawn by the naive public as intended by the manufacturers in their promotion of product via their very different video approaches? Perhaps one utilizes a superior workforce, the other, superior materials? Or is this yet one more apples to orange comparison? Me thinks so.
It has been said that often we miss the forest for the trees. Seems that expression might apply.
GWBushhogwash
Hmmmm? I'm more of the opinion that Jayco is "using" the Amish's good name to infer that their RVs are built with some sort of "old world" quality. This video obviously demonstrates that that ain't so - not even close. In fact, the Safety Officer inside me was flipping out watching those workers jogging around and jumping over all that plant equipment trying to catch those prefab walls before they hit something? And the way they throw all the parts together, yikes!!!! I could go on, but to be fair, most low cost RVs are probably built the same way.
Quote from: @sandroad" source="/post/6186/thread" timestamp="1421976250Before we took delivery, my wife and I took a tour of the LL factory. It was great fun to see the "insides" so to speak. They took us to every stage of manufacturing except the paint room. The tour started with welding the floor frame and installing the axles. The superstructure was welded up next. The skeleton then went to another building for electrical and plumbing, then to another location to get the appliances installed before the insulation, walls and finishing touches were completed. In each building, the technicians worked on one trailer for multiple days. There was some assembly line aspect to it, but it was not really mass production. They were also doing custom work. Looking inside the walls and structure was especially interesting for the techie in me. I noted the type and gauge of wire, the sizing of plumbing, and quality of joints and splices. Nothing I saw worried me or caused me to cancel my order! My only concern was with the general lack of cleaning up all the aluminum dust, slag, and chips from the welding, sawing, and drilling. That was confirmed as a problem in my own 16TBS which came with that stuff everywhere I looked behind panels and fixtures (and shorted out at least one light). I'll still take that over wood and staples any day. And my only regret after the tour was that my dealer didn't let me know how much LL is able and willing to customize their trailers. It goes far beyond the limited list of options the dealer showed us (but then we ended up with a really lousy dealer, so I should have known).
This is basically what I was told.. Would love to go see the process myself. I found an extra loose screw inside one of the compartments and few little metal pieces from the cutting work, in the same area.. No, not perfect.
Mrs. Pin said one day she thought there was a nut loose inside the trailer...
Definitely will be a nut loose in mine next week..
Quote from: @sandroad" source="/post/6186/thread" timestamp="1421976250My only concern was with the general lack of cleaning up all the aluminum dust, slag, and chips from the welding, sawing, and drilling. That was confirmed as a problem in my own 16TBS which came with that stuff everywhere I looked behind panels and fixtures (and shorted out at least one light).
[font size="3"]It could have been worse. They could have been WOOD chips :D.
[/font]
Well we're off to pick up our CampLite in the morning, 0700 departure. Pictures hopefully soon to follow..
[quote source="/post/6281/thread" timestamp="1422579731" author="@surfsup"]Well we're off to pick up our CampLite in the morning, 0700 departure. Pictures hopefully soon to follow..
Whooo hooo! Happy for you! :) Be safe, and let us know all about it![/quote]
Made it home safe and sound. Towed very well even with very windy conditions. 13.5mpg mixed driving. Plan now is to start making it our own tomorrow..
It's good to be alive! Congratulations and may many blessed years lie ahead for you!
P.S. Beautiful rig!
Yes it is great to be alive and thank you for the blessing. Still playing with posting Picassa photo links from my smart phone. You must have caught one of my attempts :cool:
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-v6oxwHxvQ8w/VMwxN1lTkWI/AAAAAAAASeE/R_DxLve_VVI/s800/upload_-1.jpg)
Looks like the trailer is [em]ever[/em] so slightly down towards the front, and the TV is dead solid level.
Exactly as it should look.
[quote source="/post/6328/thread" author="@surfsup" timestamp="1422717564"]
Stopped halfway home to check everything over inside/outside to make sure everything was good... and it was!
[/quote][font size="3"]Can't get much better than that...................[/font]
[quote timestamp="1422719404" source="/post/6329/thread" author="@pinstriper"]Looks like the trailer is [em]ever[/em] so slightly down towards the front, and the TV is dead solid level.
Exactly as it should look.
Is this true for all trailers, regardless of length or type?[/quote]
Yes, in my opinion. Tongue high means it is lifting up. If you lose traction on the TV's back wheels, you lose control of the trailer.
Tongue down is preferable, but not to the point where it presses the back of the tv down, and the front of the tv up. That's when you lose steering (generally bad) and of course most of your braking comes from the TV front wheels.
Spent the day today cleaning, tinkering around with, and organizing the CL. I actually sense we're both forming a bond with this little TT!
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-jMNBzfKLBrY/VM6G2U6EMfI/AAAAAAAASe4/xVucBaoRSWU/s800/upload_-1.jpg"%20style="max-width:100%;)
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-NV3e8ZaLPXc/VM6GeT1B8fI/AAAAAAAASew/HSiMfwuXSM4/s800/upload_-1.jpg"%20style="max-width:100%;)
[img style="" style="max-width:100%;" src="https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-2uOL8Xe-YYs/VM6WZN_sUFI/AAAAAAAASfI/6Nl3st2sK7k/s800/upload_-1.jpg"]
Looks good.
[quote source="/post/6408/thread" timestamp="1422831137" author="@surfsup"]
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-jMNBzfKLBrY/VM6G2U6EMfI/AAAAAAAASe4/xVucBaoRSWU/s800/upload_-1.jpg)
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-NV3e8ZaLPXc/VM6GeT1B8fI/AAAAAAAASew/HSiMfwuXSM4/s800/upload_-1.jpg)
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-2uOL8Xe-YYs/VM6WZN_sUFI/AAAAAAAASfI/6Nl3st2sK7k/s800/upload_-1.jpg)
Thanks GW, our CL has the faux wood cover over the aluminum flooring.. came standard with the XL pkg.