Hi All,
My family recently sold our pop-up and have been looking at TTs in the 19-24' range that has bunks and queen size bed. I had never even heard of Livin Lite until yesterday and a lot about them is very appealing.
I would like a blunt assessment from any of you that have a Livin lite travel trailer about quality, functionality etc. It seems that there isn't a trailer on the market that you could consider high quality but it looks like the Livin Lite's may have a little more duration in them seeing how they are built.
Also, we live in the Seattle area and the closest dealer seems to be in OR. As often as it seems something needs to be fixed I'm not sure if its a good idea to buy one so far from home... thoughts?
And finally, the MSRP on the one we are looking at is like 38k!! (holy cow). Any input into what we could reasonably negotiate this down to would be much appreciated as well.
thanks a ton
tim
Welcome!
If you do a search, you should be able to find my purchase/delivery experience with my 2014 21BHS. We were first time travel trailer owners as well.
It was built in 2013, but to give you an idea was about $10k cheaper than the price you quoted. This from Sunny Island RV in Indiana. I'll see if I can find that link and add it.
Found it: [a href="http://livinlite-owners.com/thread/83/21bhs"]http://livinlite-owners.com/thread/83/21bhs
A[/a]lso found the ad that led us to Sunny Island:
[img style="max-width:100%;" src="https://c1.staticflickr.com/3/2924/14740141424_7115b3371a_z.jpg"]
That was the price we got, plus a $15 title transfer fee. The photo is not of our actual trailer, with minor differences.
Thanks Eddie! I read every post in that thread and um, the thing that bothers me the most is LL's customer service. One thing that wasn't absolutely clear to me. The electrical issue was ultimately the A/C not wired correctly correct? Did LL ever end up paying for the repair?
How have things been with the trailer since your initial growing pains? Again, thanks for all the info!!
Good news: Yes, they paid for the repair.
Bad news: The problem recurred. Last time I tried to plug into a GFC outlet it tripped. Sure enough, I again have zero resistance between the neutral and ground at my 30A socket.
Right now, it's the only real issue we have with trailer. Need to get it back to Southland RV. Makes sense, since they know what the issue was last time (wiring to the A/C unit).
You might want to check with Sunny Island. If they're still a dealer and you can save that much, it might be worth a trip east to pick one up.
As an aside, we got a similar high price quote from a dealer west of Knoxville, TN. I guess they were just hoping people wouldn't comparison shop.
So, have you been happy with it in general? Would you buy it again? Right now the other trailer on our shortlist is the Coachment Apex which seems fairly well-built, aluminum framing, azdel walls etc, and over 10k cheaper. It would be hard to spend 30k on a trailer and it not be grade A across the board for me, then again my expectations might not be realistic!
[font size="3"]As a reference point we have had our 2013 Camplite 21RBS for 3 years. This is our second camper so we came at it with some experience and expectations. We've spent 249 nights in it and towed it 32K miles. We have incorporated extensive mods to make it ours and I would definitely buy it again. The only other camper I would consider is a Lance, but it is wider, heavier, and even more expensive. The design of the CL is excellent. The build quality, while not perfect, is better than most I've seen. The lack of rust, mold and rot is a major reason we bought the CL. Most of our camping is at state or national parks (electricity and water), with some boondocking and some full hookups. For the two of us, no kids and no pets, it's ideal.[/font]
[quote source="/post/26229/thread" author="@tbrady" timestamp="1480892408"]So, have you been happy with it in general? Would you buy it again? Right now the other trailer on our shortlist is the Coachment Apex which seems fairly well-built, aluminum framing, azdel walls etc, and over 10k cheaper. It would be hard to spend 30k on a trailer and it not be grade A across the board for me, then again my expectations might not be realistic![/quote]Rubber roof, steel frame.
So, heavier than a true all-aluminum frame, but in a larger trailer maybe that's an ok thing - I frankly worry about the aluminum frame on trailers actually requiring WDH.
My roof is aluminum, one piece. Yeah, the current models aren't made that way anymore. Bummer.
You aren't looking in anything as small as ours, but despite what the factory says, I far prefer the dual axles on my 14DBS.
In my size, the only comparables don't have a slideout, other than the beds are tent expansions. Pass on that.
In your size, maybe the differences aren't as stark as at my end of the product line.
I don't see any mention of what the floors are made of. I presume plywood. Dealbreaker.
If you're going from a popup to a travel trailer, don't forget about the tow vehicle needed to pull it around! The MSRP on RVs is a mythical number that varies by dealer/location/planet alignment/day of the week/etc. Look around at offering prices listed on-line to get a more realistic idea of selling price. If you decide to use the "MSRP" as a "number", it's possible to get at least 25% off as a starting point. Livin Lite has arrangements for warranty work at Camping World locations, so you don't necessarily have to go back to your selling dealer for repairs/maintenance. Lots of folks have bought long distance just to get a good dealer. I would recommend you do that too, because a good dealer will help make sure the trailer is in good shape to begin with.
re: I don't see any mention of what the floors are made of. I presume plywood. Dealbreaker.
Yes, the floors in the Apex are plywood. Other than Livin Lite and Airstream (I assume) who else even uses aluminum for flooring?
I guess what is bugging me the most is that I would be paying significantly more for a similar Livin Lite trailer. I would be totally ok with it if I felt the underlying quality was worth it. I've spent several hours on this forum today and maybe all the "issues" I've been reading about are worrying me. I spent about an equal amount of time in the Coachmen forums and and I honestly don't get a sense that Livin Lite's are considerably better. Sorry if that sounds offensive but I'm about to spend 30k+ and I want to feel good about it...
Anyway, I really appreciate all the input!!
As far as tow vehicle goes we are fine, using Toyota Tundra so we can pull plenty with it.
[quote timestamp="1480899325" author="@tbrady" source="/post/26234/thread"]
re: I don't see any mention of what the floors are made of. I presume plywood. Dealbreaker.
Yes, the floors in the Apex are plywood. Other than Livin Lite and Airstream (I assume) who else even uses aluminum for flooring?
I guess what is bugging me the most is that I would be paying significantly more for a similar Livin Lite trailer. I would be totally ok with it if I felt the underlying quality was worth it. I've spent several hours on this forum today and maybe all the "issues" I've been reading about are worrying me. I spent about an equal amount of time in the Coachmen forums and and I honestly don't get a sense that Livin Lite's are considerably better. Sorry if that sounds offensive but I'm about to spend 30k+ and I want to feel good about it...
Anyway, I really appreciate all the input!!
As far as tow vehicle goes we are fine, using Toyota Tundra so we can pull plenty with it.
[/quote]If you want to read about people with RV issues, go to RV.com and ask about anyone's experience after a leak. Pay attention to the parts about mold inside the walls/floor.
Then re-think the part where you shrug off the plywood floor because nobody else does it.
Also, I believe Airstreams are plywood underneath the aluminum skins, including the floors. You can google up some Airstream restoration projects for details.
This whole thing about CL quality is what Mark Twain was talking about when he said that a cat that jumps on a hot stove will never jump on a hot stove again; it will also never jump on a cold stove again. Point being don't overlearn the lesson. Everything you've read about are minor/easily correctable issues.
People are conditioned to quality theatre things like J.D. Powers and stuff. I call BS. The test of an automobile's quality isn't initial quality satisfaction on a new vehicle. It's about what the vehicle is like when it's 5 years old, 10 years old, 15 years old. That's where Toyota got its reputation.
Think about whether you'd buy a 10 year old travel trailer, and ask why not ? Look at the drop in value after 5 years. Hell, look at the prices of trailers on dealers' lots that are 2-3 years old and ask why they lose 75% of the original price. Answer: Because of the problems that are baked in from the start in the construction. A new trailer with a plywood floor is that albatross 5 years from now and totaled by 10.
You can aways buy mine!! I'd buy it again, in a heartbeat. Wife wants a Class A.....go figure!! Look in "for sale" for info!
[font size="3"]The Apex floors include multiple Luan plywood layers. The problem with wood in the floors is rot from undetected leaks. ALL campers will eventually leak. Seals separate due to flexing from travel. Toilets and showers will occasionally leak. Window seals can degrade. The short term effect of these leaks can be mold; the long term effect is rot. Floor rot is usually undetected until floor replacement is necessary. Even Airstream uses plywood flooring. Check on the Airstream forums and you'll find the first thing required to restore an old AS is to remove and replace the floor. Unfortunately, due to the way campers are made, that means removing everything inside and sometimes parts of walls.
All that said, rot on exposed wood such as trim and cabinet surfacing is annoying, but not catastrophic and it is not likely to occur anyway. If you see it you can fix the leak and repair the damage before it becomes excessive. That's why I don't get so concerned with the new wood cabinet doors. Heavy yes; rot liability no. Most modern campers have gone to aluminum frame laminated wall construction and aluminum/ply/rubber roofs. The ply/rubber roofing is not ideal but it is repairable. The floor is a totally different situation. [/font]
[quote source="/post/26236/thread" author="@gleamb" timestamp="1480902216"]You can aways buy mine!! I'd buy it again, in a heartbeat. Wife wants a Class A.....go figure!! Look in "for sale" for info![/quote][font size="3"]Now here's a deal you should seriously consider if you can go a 21RBS. Pre-Thor, the bugs have been worked out and fixed, all the aluminum chips vacuumed up, a sink the size of a whirlpool installed. Check it out.[/font]
[quote timestamp="1480902663" source="/post/26238/thread" author="@charliem"][quote timestamp="1480902216" author="@gleamb" source="/post/26236/thread"]You can aways buy mine!! I'd buy it again, in a heartbeat. Wife wants a Class A.....go figure!! Look in "for sale" for info![/quote][font size="3"]Now here's a deal you should seriously consider.[/font]
[/quote]True, that. No joke.
We considered an Airstream, and even joined Airforums. Nice people there, and we were welcomed at one of their rallies with our SOB*.
But they do have plywood floors, and the problems owners faced after sometimes only 5 years were depressing.
(https://c3.staticflickr.com/8/7540/27305047202_9dea5e37fb_z.jpg)
(https://c3.staticflickr.com/4/3914/14853259594_b1629f26a0_z.jpg)
Heh, if only it had the bunk beds! You made your point very well pinstriper and I agree. Most of the issues I was reading about are minor annoyances.
Is there much drop-off in quality since the Thor acquisition? E.g. Even gleamb calls out that his is Pre-Thor. :)
Quote from: @tbrady" source="/post/26241/thread" timestamp="1480906339
Heh, if only it had the bunk beds! You made your point very well pinstriper and I agree. Most of the issues I was reading about are minor annoyances.
Is there much drop-off in quality since the Thor acquisition? E.g. Even gleamb calls out that his is Pre-Thor. :)
Hard to say. A lot of us have a "they moved my cheese" thing going about axles and roofs and wood cabinets and such.
I don't know that we have the experience base to compare QC results, it's more about design/engineering. Here's what has changed, at a very high level:
1) No more custom builds. At one time they would engage with you and alter base engineering. Examples would be floor plan changes like tilt-outs and such, or the custom bumper engineering to make them weight bearing for a rear hitch/platform/cargo carrier.
2) TPO (whatever that is) roofing instead of the aluminum sheets. Probably a wash, but confidence is higher in the aluminum sheeting.
3) Compressed azdul composite floors. May well be an improvement as the aluminum planks *may* have allowed road spray to work up through the floor when driving in heavy rain. Or that may have been other nooks and crannies around the wheel wells. OTOH the aluminum is without question bullet proof. Wait and see. The new flooring is not frigid to the feet, and looks attractive, so probably more wife-friendly on the lot from a sales perspective, like the wood doors (below).
4) Wood cabinet doors. Most of us say "ick". Probably adds 40# to the trailer dry weight. But they're selling to those who used to not want the aluminum/azdel doors, and the aluminum framed doors had corners that were sharp as razors. So....call it a push.
5) Single axles on the 14/16 series instead of duals. Factory is convinced this is better for preventing low tongue weight, and that's probably very true for those who don't load/balance their trailers well. A properly balanced trailer tows more smoothly with 2 axles, however. So...from the perspective of the masses, probably the correct decision. I do know that dual axles was, for us, the "killer app" for our purchase and I remain very happy for it. This alone swayed us from the RPod.
6) More "options" now standard. A lot of what is standard interior/accessories used to be part of an option package - that absolutely every dealer ordered on every rig. So simpler to deal with in the distribution channel.
7) Thor being Thor, they already had agreements with Camping World for service centers, that LL was too small for. So now Camping World have access to factory support and warranty. Big Win. Mom and Pop dealers come and go. Camping World is here to stay, like the cockroach.
Not sure if it was a Thor thing, but they seem to be using gas/electric water heaters instead of just gas now. Meh. Looks like power awnings are available now, which is a great thing.
Thanks again... I think my wife is convinced at this point and I'm close. Time to start scouring the country for one I guess!
I think that Pinstriper's analysis above is fair and the only significant item in my mind is the change to single axles on the 14s and 16s. Two more issues to consider:
A few units have had cracked frame welds. This is apparently an isolated quality issue and for all I know they had some cracked welds pre Thor. The other is that LL themselves does not "approve" weight distribution hitches out of fears that they can bend the frame if tightened down too much. Some on this board use them on 21s and even some 16s with no problem. I think they work fine if you install light duty, ie 800 lb tongue weight hitches and don't tighten them too tight. Oh and also install some bolts in the bottom of the coupler to strengthen it- also a pre Thor issue.
David
[quote timestamp="1480908261" author="@pinstriper" source="/post/26242/thread"]
2) TPO (whatever that is) roofing instead of the aluminum sheets. Probably a wash, but confidence is higher in the aluminum sheeting.
[/quote][font size="3"]Thermoplastic olefin (TPO), or olefinic thermoplastic elastomers refer to polymer/filler blends usually consisting of some fraction of a thermoplastic, an elastomer or rubber, and usually a filler. Thermoplastics may include polypropylene (PP), polyethylene (PE), block copolymer polypropylene (BCPP), and others.
Glad you asked? ;)
[/font]
[font size="3"]One advantage of the TPO roof is it can be wrapped over the top edges and slightly down the sides. Lance does this, and along with minimizing roof penetrations, allows them to reduce leak potential. However, they still use some wood in the floor.
[/font]
[quote timestamp="1480874891" author="@tbrady" source="/post/26223/thread"]Hi All,
My family recently sold our pop-up and have been looking at TTs in the 19-24' range that has bunks and queen size bed. I had never even heard of Livin Lite until yesterday and a lot about them is very appealing.
I would like a blunt assessment from any of you that have a Livin lite travel trailer about quality, functionality etc. It seems that there isn't a trailer on the market that you could consider high quality but it looks like the Livin Lite's may have a little more duration in them seeing how they are built.
Also, we live in the Seattle area and the closest dealer seems to be in OR. As often as it seems something needs to be fixed I'm not sure if its a good idea to buy one so far from home... thoughts?
And finally, the MSRP on the one we are looking at is like 38k!! (holy cow). Any input into what we could reasonably negotiate this down to would be much appreciated as well.
thanks a ton
tim[/quote]Tim, I bought a 21BHS new about a year ago. I paid around $28K from Sunny Island but I had to pay to have it towed to Colorado ($1,200). I tried to buy from a local dealer in Colorado but they could not match the price from Sunny Island so I'm assuming I got it about as low as you can get it. I looked at other TTs and was appalled at the poor quality. When I discovered CL I was impressed by the quality. Keep in mind no TT is perfect and you will discover minor issues. But that's the nature of anything hand built. Overall it's good quality and I'm confident it will last a long time. After I bought my 21BHS I checked out a few Airstreams just out of curiosity. They are very cool but the fit and finish quality are no better than a CL in my opinion. What you pay for with the AS is style and name brand.
I do feel that for the price of the CL you don't get a lot of bells and whistles. It's pretty bare. You don't get much insulation, solar hooks ups (on 2016 model), cabinet drawers, etc for example.
Anyone know if the 2017s will be solar ready? I am looking hard at a 21bhs to replace my custom Taylor Coach 16', as I am now a snowbird and the TC is a bit cramped. TC builds custom, no stock on hand, but I would be waiting about two years to get a bigger one built, although the quality and customer service is remarkable (this is my second model). Traveling with three birds (budgie, cockatiel, and pionus who need a top bunk with a window, and I need a real bed not the bottom bunk. If there was a dealer nearby to Tucson I would be there now! Thanks
Quote from: @pegwillen" source="/post/26258/thread" timestamp="1480966935Anyone know if the 2017s will be solar ready?
[font size="3"]Don't get too hung up on the "solar ready". It's usually just a connector and a wire. It doesn't include a controller or panel and doesn't provide for optimum placement of the controller. This is an easily added item when the rest of the solar hardware is installed and the entire installation can be tailored to your particular needs. [/font]
[quote source="/post/26258/thread" author="@pegwillen" timestamp="1480966935"]Anyone know if the 2017s will be solar ready? I am looking hard at a 21bhs to replace my custom Taylor Coach 16', as I am now a snowbird and the TC is a bit cramped. TC builds custom, no stock on hand, but I would be waiting about two years to get a bigger one built, although the quality and customer service is remarkable (this is my second model). Traveling with three birds (budgie, cockatiel, and pionus who need a top bunk with a window, and I need a real bed not the bottom bunk. If there was a dealer nearby to Tucson I would be there now! Thanks
[/quote]All units are pre-wired with the Zamp Solar connector. That consists of a connector where you would connect to your solar system. It is connected through and in-line fuse to your battery.
Zamp is a popular RV portable solar system brand and happens to be the same one used on Zamp products but other than that any solar system could utilize this plug.
I was curious about the Zamp solar plug and googled it. Zamp makes a single wall mounted plug and a three plug unit that can mount on the roof. I suspect that Mr. Miller is talking about the single plug. I found one on Amazon for $8.49 here- https://www.amazon.com/Zamp-Solar-RVROOFSIDE-Sidewall-Port/dp/B00T36YVI4/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1480969221&sr=8-1&keywords=Zamp+Solar+Sidewall%2FRoof+Solar+Port
That plug as far as I know, is not proprietary to Zamp. I have them on a Battery Tender and you can buy them on Amazon for $5.25 for a pair- https://www.amazon.com/CES-Gauge-Quick-Disconnect-Harness/dp/B0057ZQJ12/ref=sr_1_50?ie=UTF8&qid=1480970118&sr=8-50&keywords=dc+connector
I was happy to find the Zamp wall plug. I may install one on my trailer battery box, so I can easily plug in my Battery Tender without removing the top. That would also be an easy way to connect a remote mounted solar panel.
David
Your right David.... Zamp supplies the stickers for advertising I expect. Yes just the single 2 pole plug.
Picture of the roof of my 2016 16 BHB. This is what the factory install of the roof looks like.
Need I say more about the quality?
Quote from: @easwen" source="/post/26264/thread" timestamp="1480981340(//)
David, DJ -
Be very careful on the Zamp solar ports if you are using anything other than a Zamp solar panel system. If you are using any other brand of solar panel than Zamp, the positive / negative wires will need to be reversed, i.e. The black negative wire will need to be connected to the positive pole of the battery and the red "hot" wire will need to be connected to the negative terminal on the battery, or you will need to purchase a connector that reverses polarity in the cabling.
That is the main reason that the Zamp sticker is applied to the trailer or battery box - if you try to hook up any other brand of solar system to the port you will smoke the plug and maybe damage the controller.
Check out the youtube video by RVFourSeasons.com on "What you need to know about Zamp solar plugs"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X1V3OM-Z6Z8&sns=em
Steve
We have a 100 watt Renogy portable suitcase system which cost considerably less than the Zamp portable system which makes a jump from 80 watts to 120 watts. The Renogy does everything that the Zamp does at a lower cost.
Quote from: @easwen" source="/post/26264/thread" timestamp="1480981340Picture of the roof of my 2016 16 BHB. This is what the factory install of the roof looks like.
Need I say more about the quality?
The aluminum roof seam where it meets the upper front edge on my 2012 looks similar...I have to admit it caught me off guard the first time I climbed up to put the winter cover on, but it has never leaked and still looks the same after 5 years.
Graham
Quote from: @dana" source="/post/26266/thread" timestamp="1480983302David, DJ -
Be very careful on the Zamp solar ports if you are using anything other than a Zamp solar panel system. If you are using any other brand of solar panel than Zamp, the positive / negative wires will need to be reversed, i.e. The black negative wire will need to be connected to the positive pole of the battery and the red "hot" wire will need to be connected to the negative terminal on the battery, or you will need to purchase a connector that reverses polarity in the cabling.
That is the main reason that the Zamp sticker is applied to the trailer or battery box - if you try to hook up any other brand of solar system to the port you will smoke the plug and maybe damage the controller.
Steve
[font size="3"]First question: What advantage does Zamp gain by using a reversed polarity configuration of a standard connector?
Second question: Why do otherwise respectable RV manufacturers supply a non standard connector?
Makes no sense to me.
[/font]
Quote from: @graham" source="/post/26268/thread" timestamp="1480983836[quote timestamp="1480981340" source="/post/26264/thread" author="@easwen"]Picture of the roof of my 2016 16 BHB. This is what the factory install of the roof looks like.
Need I say more about the quality?
The aluminum roof seam where it meets the upper front edge on my 2012 looks similar...I have to admit it caught me off guard the first time I climbed up to put the winter cover on, but it has never leaked and still looks the same after 5 years.
Graham[/quote][font size="3"]That is supposedly one reason Thor went to a TPO roof. I'll ask @david to discourse on the difficulty of putting compound bends in flat aluminum sheets. [/font]
Charliem
Those are good questions that will need to be directed to Zamp.
IMO the only reason that I can think of is that this is their way of boosting sales of their systems, and
I Have to believe that Zamp went out and captured that particular segment of the portable solar panel / RV market before other panel manufacturers even thought about it.
Makes no sense to me either.
[quote timestamp="1480983302" author="@dana" source="/post/26266/thread"]David, DJ -
Be very careful on the Zamp solar ports if you are using anything other than a Zamp solar panel system. If you are using any other brand of solar panel than Zamp, the positive / negative wires will need to be reversed, i.e. The black negative wire will need to be connected to the positive pole of the battery and the red "hot" wire will need to be connected to the negative terminal on the battery, or you will need to purchase a connector that reverses polarity in the cabling.
That is the main reason that the Zamp sticker is applied to the trailer or battery box - if you try to hook up any other brand of solar system to the port you will smoke the plug and maybe damage the controller.
Steve[/quote]Well, those two pole connectors do not have any specific polarity marked on them. So there is no standard positive or negative terminal. The convention that Battery Tender uses is that the battery charger output positive is on the female socket looking at the charger, which makes sense to protect that terminal until you think about it and see that the battery side has much greater consequences in a fault and it is male.
But that is just Battery tender's convention, and maybe Zamp's is different. There is no right or wrong since the connector is not polarized plus or minus.
If I wanted to change Zamp's convention, then all I would have to do is to wire the red lead from the connector to negative and their black to positive inside the trailer if I used their outside wall connector. No biggie, and I sure wouldn't make a Yutube video about it. And any electrician (even an amateur like me) would check the polarity before he hooked up anything to it.
In fact if I were using the Zamp wall connector I would wire the positive to the female terminal looking at the connector from outside. That way the battery's output would be protected against a fault to ground. That is probably why Zamp's convention is different from Battery Tender's.
I admit that the lack of polarity confused me at first when I wired up my battery tender. You just have to check it with a meter to keep it straight.
David
Here is a link that can be very helpful.
http://www.rvtrader.com/dealers/Nishna-Valley-Cycle-Inc.-3030026/listing/2017-Livinlite-CampLite---Travel-Trailers-CL21BHS-119336013
So, as I have read through a lot more postings regarding the CampLites my overall impression is going down. Granted when compared to other RVs on the market the lack of wood is a huge plus obviously but it basically ends there. These trailers seem to be built just as poorly built as all the others just from the number of posts showing shoddy workmanship on the frame etc. If the core of this trailer is not very well built (which is its biggest selling point to me) then what exactly am I buying?
Here's how the conversation is going with my wife, granted we have only owned a pop-up before and sold it because it was quickly falling apart.
"So hon, every trailer on the market is built like crap, even the Airstreams. It's so bad a lot of people think the entire RV industry needs to be brought in for a congressional hearing on it. Livin Lite at least mitigates some of this by using aluminum for everything so it can't rot. Well, I think it does, some people have found a lot of steel in their roof using magnets but I haven't figured that one out yet. So... if we want a camper for a our family that has any chance of lasting over 10 years it's probably a Livin Lite one. However, we're gonna have to spend around 30k and need to expect to have a lot of trouble with it initially. Don't be surprised if it has to stay at the dealer for some amount of time to work out all the bugs. Oh, some of the owners have had frame issues too with the welds so we need to check that also."
Does anyone know if there are any other all aluminium trailers on the market? I haven't found any others like Livin Lite.
I'm curious, are Class A motorhomes built any better?
And again, thanks for all the information. This is extremely helpful.
[quote timestamp="1481042087" author="@tbrady" source="/post/26286/thread"]
I'm curious, are Class A motorhomes built any better?
And again, thanks for all the information. This is extremely helpful.[/quote]
Generally, no, a Class A is going to be no better then other RVs in terms of build quality...unless you step up to the $250k++ threshold and go with one of the premium brands. Even then, under the shiny veneer, most of those will resemble a hastily constructed wood-framed trailer on wheels. A Class B RV based on the new Ford Transit or the MB Sprinter is probably one of the better options in terms of quality, since it's all the RV components are built around of a relatively high quality mass-produced steel van body, but they're about $100k and offer about the same amount of living space (or maybe less) then a Camplite 11FK provides.
So I think it helps to put some of the issues regarding Livin Lite that you noted into the proper context...the frame weld issues appears to be relatively isolated incident, including input from the LL factory on one of those threads that provides some more insight. The new TPO roof and wood-faced cabinets have their pro's and con's, but in my opinion it doesn't significantly change the projected longevity of the trailer. There's no fiberglass to delaminate or bubble, no wood floor or walls to get soft, buckle or grow mold, etc. Compared to the other brands, I think it's still the best choice for something that has a good chance of lasting more then a few years before needing major repairs or being tossed in the trash. My early 2012 13QBB is 5 years old and aside from a scratch or two that I can take credit for, it looks and functions as if it was still new...
Graham
[quote timestamp="1481042087" source="/post/26286/thread" author="@tbrady"]So, as I have read through a lot more postings regarding the CampLites my overall impression is going down. Granted when compared to other RVs on the market the lack of wood is a huge plus obviously but it basically ends there. These trailers seem to be built just as poorly built as all the others just from the number of posts showing shoddy workmanship on the frame etc. If the core of this trailer is not very well built (which is its biggest selling point to me) then what exactly am I buying?
Does anyone know if there are any other all aluminium trailers on the market? I haven't found any others like Livin Lite.
[/quote][font size="3"]If you're disappointed with LL quality compared to other RVs your conclusion is premature. CLs are built as well or better than most other mid market units, including Airstream. The only other camper I would consider is a Lance and it is heavier and even more expensive. If you're disappointed with the quality of RVs in general you are perfectly justified in your view. The entire RV industry suffers from an assembly quality problem. Most are located in the Elkhart Indiana area and pull from the same labor pool and suppliers and they sell to the same group of customers. For the extra cost of LL you are getting design, longevity and transparency. What I mean by transparency is there is very little you cannot easily see. No wires or pipes forever encased in walls or floor. The ceiling necessarily has a few wires but the rest are easily inspectable, modifiable and repairable. That said you may not want these things. If you only plan to keep a trailer for a few years and move on or move up you may not value longevity. If you want fancy cabinets and everything concealed you may want something else. However, most of us really appreciate the LL products and would definitely buy again. Keep in mind the this forum has only 1300+ members. Other products with forums find they attract only about 10% of their owners. You will naturally hear about problems to a higher degree than complete satisfaction. The old squeaky wheel, vocal minority syndrome. If you dig through other brand's forums you will find the same horror stories and the same questions about quality. It's the nature of the beast.
As for other aluminum trailer manufacturers I know only one, Aluminum Trailer Company (ATC), but they do not make camping trailers.
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You tell 'em, charliem. If you don't discuss problems on these forums, how are they going to be solved. I had a few issues when I bought mine, but between the factory, my dealer AND THIS FORUM, I was able to remedy all of my issues and learn a great deal from you and our other members. I value this forum. It is one of the best I have participated in, and I have been in or am in at least five !! These are wonderful trailers. I have been in mine, with my wife, everyday since Oct 3rd, and I enjoy it every day!! I hope however buys this trailer joins this forum. It is invaluable.!! I check it a few times everyday.
Well... after all the hemming and hawing I've decided the 21BHS is the best option for us. The input from you guys has been tremendously helpful. I have a couple of other questions that I didn't see answered anywhere else.
1. gas line for stove? I didn't see one, has anyone added one to theirs? This was extremely convenient in our last camper.
2. External shower? I'm pretty sure they have one but wanted to confirm.
3. beefed up bumper for carrying a bike rack - it looks like a lot of people got an addition 2x4 added to the inside of the rear bumper by the factory. But it looks like this is no longer an option. Fortunately one of my best friends is an experienced welder (builds aluminum boats) so is it as simple as just welding on a 2x4 tube on the inside of the existing bumper? Is that strong enough to carry 150lbs of bikes?
Used camplites seem to be hard to come by (at least this time of year). I have only found a couple of 21BHS that are used and for sale. Would you guys anticipate seeing a lot more on the market by spring?
thanks again
tim
[quote source="/post/26294/thread" author="@tbrady" timestamp="1481072848"]
Well... after all the hemming and hawing I've decided the 21BHS is the best option for us. The input from you guys has been tremendously helpful. I have a couple of other questions that I didn't see answered anywhere else.
1. gas line for stove? I didn't see one, has anyone added one to theirs? This was extremely convenient in our last camper.
2. External shower? I'm pretty sure they have one but wanted to confirm.
3. beefed up bumper for carrying a bike rack - it looks like a lot of people got an addition 2x4 added to the inside of the rear bumper by the factory. But it looks like this is no longer an option. Fortunately one of my best friends is an experienced welder (builds aluminum boats) so is it as simple as just welding on a 2x4 tube on the inside of the existing bumper? Is that strong enough to carry 150lbs of bikes?
Used camplites seem to be hard to come by (at least this time of year). I have only found a couple of 21BHS that are used and for sale. Would you guys anticipate seeing a lot more on the market by spring?
thanks again
tim[/quote][font size="3"]Tim,
Glad you're coming around to our way of thinking ;) .
[ol type="decimal"][li]Gas lines for external grills were not originally offered but they're easily added. A lot of folks use Tees off the main propane bottles with a hose. Permanent hookups can be added, either high or low pressure depending on your grill.[/li][li]The 21s have an external shower.[/li][li]The beefed up bumper was never a factory option, but after I had mine done by them to my drawings others began requesting it. Your friend, if he is good at welding aluminum, can easily do it. It's just the addition of a length of 2x4 AL tubing properly welded. Search this forum for my mods and you'll find a drawing and pictures showing how. I carry 2 bikes on mine and they don't move (as seen in my rear looking camera). I can stand and jump on the bumper with no problem.[/li][/ol][p]
[/p][p]I don't know about the market. [strike]Above[/strike] below my pay grade 8-) .
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This is like watching a one man tennis match. Which, come to think of it, I think Bugs Bunny actually did. Or maybe that was baseball with him pitching to himself catching. Anyway, we'll see where we are tomorrow morning.
If you're down to things like propane lines for a grill or outside showers, you've already made the purchase decision.
Pay very close attention to Charlie's drawings on the bumper. It isn't "just a 2x4", it's how and where it attaches to the frame. Don't Bubba the thing up. That said, 150# of bikes is a lot of bikes, and you're now starting to talk about something that will affect tongue weight. You might consider a hitch on the front of your TV and put (some of) the bikes there.
Camplites were never widely distributed - they are more of a boutique/niche product. So there's a smaller population of used trailers to start with. Then, they don't require replacement/upgrade as often as other products, so people aren't getting out at 3 years before the thing starts falling apart. Finally, it's not that old of a product for a lot of owner turnover to happen. We have seen a few upgrade to a larger CL or a larger other RV, but again it's a pretty small sample size.
Quote from: @pinstriper" source="/post/26296/thread" timestamp="1481081097This is like watching a one man tennis match.........
Pay very close attention to Charlie's drawings on the bumper. It isn't "just a 2x4", it's how and where it attaches to the frame....
[font size="3"]I'll third that. The added 2x4 must be forward of the existing bumper, between the two frame members, and welded to the bumper
and both frame members. You're trying to take the load off the original bumper-to frame welds.
Now, back to the Bugs Bunny Wimbledon.
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[font face="times new roman"][font size="4"]I added a hitch to the front of our Tundra for the bike rack,
very sturdy and easy to keep an eye on things.
Good luck on your search for a TT.[/font][/font]
I'm late to the conversation but I'll say that my 2013 13QBB has had one issue since I bought it new. Right after I bought it there was a leak on the roof at a seam, it was covered under warranty and easily repaired. Since then I've not had a single issue with it. I would buy it again or I would buy a larger model but I would stick with Camplight.
You guys don't happen to know of any owners in WA state do you? The closest dealer is in Oregon and unfortunately they don't keep them in stock and only order them. We would really like to look at one but its looking like we'll need to drive at least a few hundred miles to find one!