[p]I may be able to get one for a nominal amount more that what a 21RBS sells for from some dealers. So, what are the downsides of getting this monster? Weight does not look like an issue but it is more than 5 feet longer. What impact will it have on my mpg if it is about 900 pound heavier but still within what my TV can manage? [/p][p]
[/p][p]What are the good things? Finally, for this unit, what options would you recommend????[/p][p]
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I think you'll be a pioneer with a 28BHS. I haven't even seen any pictures that didn't come from LL. You might be one of the first to own one ever, let alone on the forums.
The downside with the extra weight will be reduced mileage on the hills. Your mileage on the flats is almost entirely determined by wind resistance which will be about the same for all camplites (they have the same frontal profile).
The downside with the extra length is that there are less camping spots that you can fit in. Depending on where you want to camp, it may not make a difference though. I like camping in smaller forested campgrounds and 29' is a bit too much for me. If you like camping in grassy parking lots then it won't be a problem.
The good thing is more space and more features.
As for the options, it's probably the same as the other models. See some of the other threads about choosing options. I'd avoid the insulation. Think about the off-road package depending on your driving habits.
[font size="3"][font face="arial"]What Techie said X2.
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Here is how my brother put it. I have narrowed it down to 3 possible trailers: 1) the Trailmanor 3124 2) the Nash 22H 3) The Livinlite 28bhs. He asked one question after I spent a long time describing the pros and cons for each one: Which one will the dog be happiest in? I said the Livinlite. He said then that will be the one my wife will be happiest in, so the decision is done. I agreed. So much for being methodic and disciplined in my approach.
[p]OK, what WD/Anti sway for this one then?[/p][p]
[/p][p]Also, looking at the list of what it comes with, does anyone know what a 24x48 rear bike door is? It says the bunks flip up, do they stay up and do both flip?
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[quote source="/post/1476/thread" timestamp="1402533308" author="@funpilot"]OK, what WD/Anti sway for this one then?
[/quote][font size="3"][font face="arial"]What will you be towing with??[/font][/font]
[p]Mt TV is a 2005 Avalanche 1500 with the 3.42 rear axle. I have the towing package that says with a WD hitch I can go up to 1000 pounds tongue weight. My max real world towing is about 5300 pounds based on this calculator: [a href="http://changingears.com/rv-sec-calc-trailer-weight-tt.shtml"]http://changingears.com/rv-sec-calc-trailer-weight-tt.shtml[/a][/p][p]
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[font size="3"][font face="arial"]Does that #5300 include passengers, luggage, junk or have you already discounted for that? [/font][/font][font size="3"][font face="arial"]You'll be very close with #4250 dry +++. That only leaves #1000 for people, stuff, propane, batteries, water. [/font][/font][font size="3"][font face="arial"]I guess I'd be thinking about the 800/8000 or 1000/10000 Equalizer or E2 for WDH and sway control. And with the small V8 and 3.42 you'll be limited on acceleration and mountain climbing. But the dog will be happy :D
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The 5300 presumes I have the wife, dog and myself in the truck. Nothing else.
I am guessing the following. The 4250 does not include options. A/C= 150lbs, propane + tanks = 80 pounds, 15 gallons fresh water = 125 pounds, stuff = 200 pounds, awning = 100 pounds, misc other options = 25 pounds. This totals to 680 pounds for a total of 4930 leaving me 370 pounds left. Thoughts?
[quote source="/post/1480/thread" timestamp="1402542501" author="@funpilot"]The 5300 presumes I have the wife, dog and myself in the truck. Nothing else. [/quote]What's in the truck goes against payload and GCWR, not tow rating.
[quote source="/post/1481/thread" timestamp="1402543754" author="@funpilot"]I am guessing the following. The 4250 does not include options. A/C= 150lbs, propane + tanks = 80 pounds, 15 gallons fresh water = 125 pounds, stuff = 200 pounds, awning = 100 pounds, misc other options = 25 pounds. This totals to 680 pounds for a total of 4930 leaving me 370 pounds left. Thoughts? [/quote][p]Just for reference: Options on my 14DBS took my dry weight from 2650# spec to 2980# actual (sticker on the frame). That doesn't count battery. It does include A/C, TV, floor mats, awning.[/p][p]
[/p][p]Stuff, propane, water, food went on top of that to the tune of another 500#, give or take.
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[quote source="/post/1482/thread" timestamp="1402543804" author="@pinstriper"][quote source="/post/1480/thread" timestamp="1402542501" author="@funpilot"]The 5300 presumes I have the wife, dog and myself in the truck. Nothing else. [/quote]What's in the truck goes against payload and GCWR, not tow rating.
[/quote][p]That is what I always thought as well until I came across the calculator that shows otherwise. Seems for every pound you add to the truck, it takes 6 pounds off what the trailer can weigh. Go play with this and tell me what you see. [a href="http://changingears.com/rv-sec-calc-trailer-weight-tt.shtml"]http://changingears.com/rv-sec-calc-trailer-weight-tt.shtml[/a][/p][p]
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OK, figured out I did not include the weight of the equalizer and batteries. That will add about 230 pounds. Guess I have to pass once more unless the calculator I am using is wrong.
Take a look at the sticker on your truck. The GVWR for your truck is the number to look at. The curb weight of your truck, plus the tongue weight, and the weight of people and cargo in the truck can't shouldn't exceed the GVWR. Figure your tongue weight as about 10-12% of your camper weight.
As Charlie stated, the 3.42 axle will slow your acceleration and could be an issue in the mountains. However, there is a point where your tow vehicle and a camper large enough to meet your needs become mutually exclusive to a degree. That is where trade offs need to be made. If you can live with slower acceleration at times, this may be doable. Where do you plan on traveling in most cases; what kind of terrain (flat, mountainous, hilly, etc.)
Will be travelling mostly flat to hilly. GVWR is 6800. Empty weight is about 5500 + 400 for people and dog + 695 tongue weight (275 dry hitch + 140 for batteries + 80 for propane +100 for options + 100 misc) = 6595. That is probably too close ?
[quote source="/post/1487/thread" timestamp="1402573236" author="@funpilot"]
Will be travelling mostly flat to hilly. GVWR is 6800. Empty weight is about 5500 + 400 for people and dog + 695 tongue weight (275 dry hitch + 140 for batteries + 80 for propane +100 for options + 100 misc) = 6595. That is probably too close ?
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While that is getting close, you are still within your limits and I'm sure there is some safety factor in there as well. However, you would just need to be prepared for some acceleration issues, etc. I tow my 21BHS with a Ram 1500 with the 4.7L V8, and 3.92 rear. While there is certainly an impact on acceleration and gas mileage, it is certainly doable and handles the hills well. No matter how close you are to your limits, you just need to keep your limitations in mind so you don't find yourself in a situation where you require performance you don't have available. Plus, I don't know what year your Avalanche is, but eventually you'll be replacing your tow vehicle, and could opt for a Silverado, Ram or F150. So if you can keep your limits in mind, and feel you can live with them, your situation can always change. You could always possibly arrrange for a test tow of at least a 21BHS and see how your Avalanche handles that. If it handles it easily, you'll have more confidence. If it has problems, you'll know the 28BHS will make it worse.
As far as the length of the camper goes, there are a few things. I find the 21BHS the perfect size for me. One of the biggest things I like is the fact that the camper is 7' wide, so it is not much wider than my truck. The 28BHS is also 7' wide. That really makes it easy. The 28BHS is 5' 4" longer, so while that may make it a bit more difficult to maneuver, it is still well within the limits of many travel trailers. As was stated previously, your mileage will be more affected by wind drag, which will be about the same for any of the camplites.
Hope this helps.
Doug
I am going to call LL and ask if the bunks can be removed and if the awning can just be left in the trailer and not installed. That might remove about 200 pounds. Not sure where the batteries go but have been presuming up front on the hitch. Also, was told that the standard package has changed and the weights on the website have not been updated. Will call them in an hour or so when they wake up.
[font size="3"][font face="arial"]It's all one gigantic compromise. All ratings have to be met. GVWR, GAWR, Payload, GCWR, tongue weight, tow rating, acceleration, braking, wife requirements, dog requirements, bank requirements, etc. One giant equation with 10**14 variables. All that said I do like the way Funpilot is going through the process. He may not ever find the solution, but he will know why. Better than the average bear.
Djsamuels summed it up best " there is a point where your tow vehicle and a camper large enough to meet your needs become mutually exclusive..." Add to that the wife requirements plus dog and bank and you have the unsolvable. [/font][/font][font size="3"][font face="arial"]So so true. [/font][/font][font size="3"][font face="arial"]Thanks Doug.
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[quote source="/post/1489/thread" timestamp="1402578882" author="@funpilot"]I am going to call LL and ask if the bunks can be removed and if the awning can just be left in the trailer and not installed.[/quote]What would you put in place of the bunks? They're behind the axles, so they will actually reduce your tongue weight. The awning spans almost the entire length, so it shouldn't affect tongue weight either way.
And if 200# is the make or break, you are too close to limits.
I know this feels like we're giving you a root canal, but we're trying to be helpful.
I really think a different tow vehicle should be considered if possible. If the size of the camper is really important, perhaps the best thing to do is change the tow vehicle. With the 28BHS, you certainly don't need something huge, just something a bit stronger than an Avalanche.
Up to this point, you've only been looking at varying one side of the equation, the camper side. Try considering the tow vehicle side by looking at what's available in the used truck department and comparing to what you can get for your Avalanche. Certainly up to you, but just trying to give a different perspective.
[quote source="/post/1484/thread" timestamp="1402565651" author="@funpilot"][quote source="/post/1482/thread" timestamp="1402543804" author="@pinstriper"]What's in the truck goes against payload and GCWR, not tow rating.
[/quote][p]That is what I always thought as well until I came across the calculator that shows otherwise. Seems for every pound you add to the truck, it takes 6 pounds off what the trailer can weigh. Go play with this and tell me what you see. [a href="http://changingears.com/rv-sec-calc-trailer-weight-tt.shtml"]http://changingears.com/rv-sec-calc-trailer-weight-tt.shtml[/a][/p][p]
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[/p][/quote][p]GCWR = GVWR of the tow vehicle + GVWR of the trailer.[/p][p]
[/p][p]Tow rating is a different calculation, and has to do with frame strength, TV axle strength, braking ability, wheelbase, powertrain (engine + tranny), cooling ability for the engine and tranny (and brakes). Tow rating IS related to the above in that the GVW of the trailer has to be under the tow rating, and payload in the truck does eat into what you have left for towing ability. And yes, you can tow more than you can haul. I'll take a peek at the calculater later (hey, poetry!) but I was talking about a different set of limits/considerations. You have to watch it from both angles, yes.[/p][p]
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I do not have the funds to do both a new camper and a new TV. I am doing this so carefully because if I settle, I will not use the trailer like I want to. So, if it is not to be, so be it. I was fine until we added the dog...
[quote source="/post/1497/thread" timestamp="1402584366" author="@funpilot"]I was fine until we added the dog...[/quote]I've got it: sell the dog to pay for the bigger tow vehicle... wait then you won't need the bigger tow vehicle ;-| hmmm... put dog to work to pay for new tow vehicle, it's their fault anyways :)
Seriously though, we were in the same situation a year ago: outgrew our trailer and the old tow vehicle couldn't tow anything bigger. Ended up having to upgrade both.
[quote source="/post/1497/thread" timestamp="1402584366" author="@funpilot"]
I do not have the funds to do both a new camper and a new TV. I am doing this so carefully because if I settle, I will not use the trailer like I want to. So, if it is not to be, so be it. I was fine until we added the dog...
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Don't know how much you'd have to settle as long as you are knowledgeable of the tradeoffs. I did a bit of searching, and found a post from someone with a 29' Keystone TT. They have a 2004 Avalanche, 5.3L V-8 but with the 3.73 rear. They said they've towed 5000 miles, and the only time they wished they had more truck was when they went out to the Rocky Mountains and hit some steep grades around Yellowstone and Salt Lake City. They were able to get through that in 2nd gear. Your biggest issue is the rear end ratio. There are posts that mention the same issue with that ratio. Someone asked about towing a 7000 pound trailer with a 2005 Avalanche with a 3.42 ratio. Consensus is that if packing is done lightly, and the Rockies are avoided or routes planned carefully, it should work if you take it easy. The other mandatory suggestion was to make sure there is a transmission cooler installed.
You can certainly tow it many places, but you would need to be careful what grades you drive and make sure you have the truck maintained. Replacing the tow vehicle could take place at a later time, and in the mean time pick your camping destinations accordingly.
Also, remember that the dry weight of the 28BHS is only 750 pounds higher than the 21BHS, but the higher GVWR for the camper is due to the much higher load capacity (2750 pounds vs 1500). I can't imagine loading a trailer up with 2750 pounds of stuff, so that 7000 pound limit will probably never be reached. With careful packing, you may find the weight can be kept at an acceptable level.
Not trying to talk you into something you are not comfortable with, but just trying to look at the issue in a different way.
Doug
OK, just got back from the CAT scales after emptying all the junk and removing the spare tire. By the way, I got almost 2 mpg better after removing that tire. I presume that is because of it being under the truck and creating drag. Now the interesting stuff. I put in weight to exactly emulate my wife and dog in the vehicle and my TV weight dropped almost 300 pounds. OMG, what a difference that made in the calculator I have been using. Now it tells me I can tow:
7100 max tow weight with 6035 being within the safety zone
852 max tongue weight with 724 being within the safety zone
My front axle weighs 3120 (max 3400)
My rear axle weighs 2180 (max 4000)
That is with the safety margin set at 15% and tongue weight percentage over ride set at 12%
I put in the max weight as 5800 into the calculator for the 28BHS so that should more than cover real world loading if the dry weight is 4250. Thoughts ???
I think 1550 pounds for options, gas, water and gear is reasonable. That matches the total capacity of the 21BHS above the dry weight.
Did you guys know that the 28BHS has a new option? You can convert the bunk bed area to the pop-out tent like the toy haulers have and then you get a door on the back that lets you load bicycles into the space where the bunks used to be; or you can get fold up bunk beds and get the same door (maybe, as when I asked someone at LL about that he said he had never heard of that even though their price sheet shows it...) Also, the XL Living package is now part of the standard build (mandatory). I am curious about one thing though...they use the same 13.5 A/C for the much bigger trailer and the same 30 amp service. That sound like under engineering to me. Again, your thoughts? (I just checked and they use the same a/c on their largest toy hauler...)
Now to finalize pricing. Anyone want to bet that something comes up to stop me again???
[quote source="/post/1506/thread" timestamp="1402602627" author="@funpilot"]Did you guys know that the 28BHS has a new option? You can convert the bunk bed area to the pop-out tent like the toy haulers have and then you get a door on the back that lets you load bicycles into the space where the bunks used to be; or you can get fold up bunk beds and get the same door (maybe, as when I asked someone at LL about that he said he had never heard of that even though their price sheet shows it...) Also, the XL Living package is now part of the standard build (mandatory). I am curious about one thing though...they use the same 13.5 A/C for the much bigger trailer and the same 30 amp service. That sound like under engineering to me. Again, your thoughts? (I just checked and they use the same a/c on their largest toy hauler...)
[/quote]That's news to me... anything on the 28' is news to me though :) I'm not a big fan of the pop-outs because we're in the northwest and they would never dry out. If you live somewhere less wet then go for it. I think the XL package has always been mandatory even though it says it's an option because there's bound to be something in that package that you want and it's relatively inexpensive to add (considering what you get). I think the 13.5k btu A/C should be fine. It will run more often in hotter climates, but I don't think you'd need two units on a 28' unit.
[quote source="/post/1504/thread" timestamp="1402601751" author="@funpilot"]OK, just got back from the CAT scales after emptying all the junk and removing the spare tire. By the way, I got almost 2 mpg better after removing that tire. I presume that is because of it being under the truck and creating drag. Now the interesting stuff. I put in weight to exactly emulate my wife and dog in the vehicle and my TV weight dropped almost 300 pounds. OMG, what a difference that made in the calculator I have been using. Now it tells me I can tow:
7100 max tow weight with 6035 being within the safety zone
852 max tongue weight with 724 being within the safety zone
My front axle weighs 3120 (max 3400)
My rear axle weighs 2180 (max 4000)
That is with the safety margin set at 15% and tongue weight percentage over ride set at 12%
I put in the max weight as 5800 into the calculator for the 28BHS so that should more than cover real world loading if the dry weight is 4250. Thoughts ???
[/quote][font size="3"][font face="arial"]Looks like you are zeroing in on the solution. I looked at the online calculator you're using...Pretty swift. I also found GM's tow rating of #7100 for your 2005. Is that what you plugged in to line 3 on the calculator? From your earlier posts and a Trailer Life chart I thought it was around #5300. Your #1550 for options and stuff seems adequate. Beginning to look like a go.
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The tow rating I quoted was from the calculator. My Chevy Avalanche manual says that I can tow 7300 pounds. When I put in the other data it kept reducing what I could tow and I reported that. In playing with it, I finally was able to show myself that OP were correct that the weight of my TV was the critical factor, so I found a way to reduce it. When I did, everything came in to place. What also helped was reducing the tongue calculation from 15% to 12%.
At this point, I am looking to get the 28BHS with the XL Living package, hot water heater that I will replace later with a tankless, convection microwave, black tank flush kit, Power tongue jack and what I hope I read correctly are flip up bunks with the back door for the bikes, not the pop-out tent. I will most likely add a few electrical outlets once I see the engineering drawings for that plus one more cable tv outlet. I think I will put one outlet in a bottom cabinet so I can install a central vac for this unit. I will ask for satellite ready and solar ready. After reading in various forums on the value of 6 volt batteries, what brand and model would you recommend for this unit? What have I missed wanting to get?
Finally, the factory has sent me emails saying that the leatherette they offer for the fifth wheels is available if I want it (http://www.livinlite.com/camplite32rls-gallery.php). Not sure that I like it better than the fabric but would like your thoughts on that.
Any thoughts on the Optional Metal cabinetry colors (champagne, black, white, silver, red)? Right now I think I will go with the Dk cherry with black trim, but might be interested in something different...
[quote source="/post/1513/thread" timestamp="1402621770" author="@funpilot"][font face="arial" size="3"]At this point, I am looking to get the 28BHS with the XL Living package, hot water heater that I will replace later with a tankless, convection microwave, black tank flush kit, Power tongue jack and what I hope I read correctly are flip up bunks with the back door for the bikes, not the pop-out tent. I will most likely add a few electrical outlets once I see the engineering drawings for that plus one more cable tv outlet. I think I will put one outlet in a bottom cabinet so I can install a central vac for this unit. I will ask for satellite ready and solar ready. After reading in various forums on the value of 6 volt batteries, what brand and model would you recommend for this unit?
[font color="e6194a"]Any good brand 6V GC2 series golf cart battery, 2 each. Trojan T105s are the benchmark; I use Interstate GC2-XHDs[font color="e6194a"]. Others are available, even at Wally World. Do not use "marine" batteries. These are not true deep cycle batteries. [/font][/font]
What have I missed wanting to get?
[font color="e6194a"]If you ever want to hang something on the rear bumper [font color="e6194a"]like bikes I recommend the beefed up bumper I had made. See my early post that includes a drawing. Also consider adding a SeeLevel tank monitor and upgrading at least one c[font color="e6194a"]eiling fan to [/font][/font]a Fantastic[font color="e6194a"] Vent. I don't know if the factory will [font color="e6194a"]install the SeeLevel, but they should substitute the Fantastic with some arm twisting. Don't waste your money on their upgraded high power fan o[font color="e6194a"]r the spray on floor insulation. The shower skylight is really worth [font color="e6194a"]the money.[/font][/font] [/font][/font][/font]
Finally, the factory has sent me emails saying that the leatherette they offer for the fifth wheels is available if I want it (http://www.livinlite.com/camplite32rls-gallery.php). Not sure that I like it better than the fabric but would like your thoughts on that.
[font color="e6194a"]Generally the leatherette will wear better than the fabric, but the real weakness is the foam. For these reasons my wife is planning to have new cushions made by an upholstery shop.
[font color="1961e6"]We're all waiting for the first report on the [font color="1961e6"]28.[/font][/font] [/font]
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[quote source="/post/1514/thread" timestamp="1402622348" author="@funpilot"]Any thoughts on the Optional Metal cabinetry colors (champagne, black, white, silver, red)? Right now I think I will go with the Dk cherry with black trim, but might be interested in something different...[/quote]We have the dark cherry with the black trim and still like it.
[quote source="/post/1516/thread" timestamp="1402628724" author="@djsamuel"][quote source="/post/1514/thread" timestamp="1402622348" author="@funpilot"]Any thoughts on the Optional Metal cabinetry colors (champagne, black, white, silver, red)? Right now I think I will go with the Dk cherry with black trim, but might be interested in something different...[/quote]We have the dark cherry with the black trim and still like it.[/quote][p]Us as well, but I do wish I had the unpainted metal trim. The corners on all the cabinet doors are razor sharp, and I'd like to take a stone to them to knock the edge down a bit. But then they'll be bare metal, and how to paint just the corners and get it to match ? I'm gonna do it anyway one of these days, and try using just testers model paint or something and hope it's close and not too noticeable.[/p][p]
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[quote source="/post/1517/thread" timestamp="1402631974" author="@pinstriper"][quote source="/post/1516/thread" timestamp="1402628724" author="@djsamuel"]We have the dark cherry with the black trim and still like it.[/quote][p]Us as well, but I do wish I had the unpainted metal trim. The corners on all the cabinet doors are razor sharp, and I'd like to take a stone to them to knock the edge down a bit. But then they'll be bare metal, and how to paint just the corners and get it to match ? I'm gonna do it anyway one of these days, and try using just testers model paint or something and hope it's close and not too noticeable.[/p][p]
[/p][/quote]We have a small scratch in ours. I'm going to try a black Sharpie permanent marker and see how that works.
A guy who writes a blog for solar RVing and solar houses recently said that he considers Crown batteries to be among the best. If you're interested in his blog it's [a href="http://handybobsolar.wordpress.com/"]HERE[/a]. He's a bit cantankerous but the information he puts out seems very sound. Crown battery info is [a href="https://www.crownbattery.com/"]HERE[/a]
Mitch
[quote source="/post/1519/thread" timestamp="1402655671" author="@djsamuel"][quote source="/post/1517/thread" timestamp="1402631974" author="@pinstriper"][p]Us as well, but I do wish I had the unpainted metal trim. The corners on all the cabinet doors are razor sharp, and I'd like to take a stone to them to knock the edge down a bit. But then they'll be bare metal, and how to paint just the corners and get it to match ? I'm gonna do it anyway one of these days, and try using just testers model paint or something and hope it's close and not too noticeable.[/p][p]
[/p][/quote]We have a small scratch in ours. I'm going to try a black Sharpie permanent marker and see how that works.[/quote][p]That also occurred to me as a possibility. Please let me know how it goes.[/p][p]
[/p][p]We had a scratch in the aluminum floor, and a few minutes with a scotchbrite pad will take care of it. I told my wife that I did so, before putting down the interlocking foam pads and then the factory rug/mat on top of that.[/p][p]
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One of the dealers I talked with said they use high gloss black Rust-Oleum for touch ups.