Not sure where or if I should post this here. Here goes anyway.
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Hi all
I know I'm new here and I'm now the owner of a new 2016 16ft TBS. First off let me say I'm happy with this purchase and think the camper will last us a long time with a little care. We are happy to know we have a camper that even wet will not rot away on us. It looks nice and is very light weight.
That said let me express my huge disappointment in the quality of this campers build. As soon as you open the door a trim peace is staring at you and you know it was not fit correctly. It is about an inch too long and bows. How could the employee putting this on not have known this? He had to. Lazy sorry craftsmanship is what that is. Also as many have spoken about on here. I will be cleaning up aluminum shavings for days and days. Again lazy workers not cleaning up after themselves. Only one speakers in the ceiling works and I can at this point assume they are not even wired correctly. There are a few more things I could go on about , but why bother. You get the idea.
Yes I can fix all of these small things and it would not be a big deal had it been just one thing or issue. However at the price of these campers we should expect better craftsmanship and quality. Did Thor make it a one axle camper ? Yes. Did they use wood cabinets ? Yes. Did they cut cost in production yes. They did ad the 2nd step to the door way. They had to I guess. Nobody was going to buy a camper you had to climb in to. Bottom line they did cut cost. Some of it I can understand. They are running a business after all. However I'm at a loss as to why they allow such lazy workers to do such sorry work and not even clean up after themselves. I guess another cost cutting method is to cut out the QC too. For gosh sake you cant see that 2 of the lights are not set in all the way and hang out with 1/4 inch gap from the ceiling?
My only hope now is they did not make hidden cuts on the frame build, cutting out extra braces and such. Who knows ?
My rant is over now and I must now start fixing things and cleaning up the crappy work that Thor employees have preformed on my camper.
Does anybody know where I can send the bill to at Thor for my labor ?
Sadly disappointed in the works of Thor Industries employees.
JimT
JimT:
Thanks for sharing with us the teething problems with your new 16TBS. It might be interesting to contrast yours with our pre Thor 2013 16TBS, built during Scott Tuttle's watch.
It does have the aluminum shavings problem. Apparently that has been a CL legacy that will stay forever -as long as the ceiling is aluminum -;). But none of the other fit and finish issues that you describe- well, maybe a steel bracket or two underneath . Good craftsmanship really doesn't cost more money, you just have to have someone in production who cares.
And BTW, how is your two step step working? It has been the topic of much discussion in the past here with no simple fix. Could yours work with older CLs and if so can you tell us the brand? How about a close up picture of the step.
David
David
I will post a picture as soon as I can. Will also see if I can find out who makes it for them .
When we were looking at one in Claremont NC ( Carolina RV and Marine ) they had the one step on their 16TBS. Was a huge step up to enter the camper. The one we bought came from Sunny Island.
It makes the enter, exit much, much easier and safer. That last step is not a long way down like the one step was. My wife and I found this to be a huge improvement. I would think it mounts the same on older ones. Just has the extra fold down step. It is very light weight compared to our old campers heavy steel one.
Will update with pictures as soon as I can.
Jim T
No problem with posting frustrations. Most of us have been there and I empathize with your QC problems. No excuses really, for the QC issues LL and the rest of the RV industry has. I like the idea of sending Thor a bill :) Once I got over my initial disappointment, my attitude has been that fixing all the QC problems has let me get to know my camper really well. Once you go camping, I bet you'll feel better!
All of the QC issues make me want to get a 2014 or 2015 when I upgrade and make me less eager to upgrade as well. But, I know this isn't just a Livin Lite problem, and, in fact, it IS better over here than with most other brands.
I really want the 16TBS, but my dealer will have to expend the energy to fix a long punch list when the time comes. I'm moving to a camper because my body is too beat up to sleep on the ground anymore, so I'll be damned if I'll crawl around fixing a brand new camper. And still disappointed that they went to a single axle. *sigh*
[quote timestamp="1474307849" source="/post/24735/thread" author="@queen"] And still disappointed that they went to a single axle. *sigh* [/quote]It is a downer , but not in anyway a deal breaker . At least they beefed up the one they put on now. Shame you're down for the count with a flat though. Speaking of, has anybody figured a way to remount the spare on the 16TBS. That under the frame is a disaster waiting to happen I think.
Jim T
David
You asked for a few images of the steps and I have tried to post them on here. Hopeless I guess.
I do have a link to the images on my Flickr account. At least you can see them there.
I would say that the one step model is only about 2 inches lower than my top step. Very high first step.
You would have to ask LL , but I think they mount the exact same way.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/45000801@N03/albums/72157674018993336
Jim T
[p]Jim:
Thanks for the step pics. Now we just have to find out who makes them.[/p][p]
[/p][p]Edit: I just found this on Amazon [a href="https://www.amazon.com/Lippert-341500-Double-Manual-Radius/dp/B00JMHHFVE/ref=sr_1_16?ie=UTF8&qid=1474330582&sr=8-16&keywords=rv+steps"]https://www.amazon.com/Lippert-341500-Double-Manual-Radius/dp/B00JMHHFVE/ref=sr_1_16?ie=UTF8&qid=1474330582&sr=8-16&keywords=rv+steps[/a][/p][p]
[/p][p]Is that it? You gotta love Amazon.
I also like the rear platform. It looks well built and supported.
Looking at one of your last pics, it appears as if you have dual LPG tanks, and an electric tongue jack, but have not installed batteries. Consider putting in two 6V golf cart batteries wired in series and installed in a Noco box. But that will add substantial tongue weight and you probably have a bunch already with the single axle rig.
David[/p]
David
Yes that one on Amazon is a dead ringer for mine. One steppers there ya go.
I think the picture was taken before the battery was mounted. It is a nice 75 amp hour battery. Deep cycle of course.
Sunny Island put that one on. It sits right behind the propane tanks about a foot. I do a lot of astronomy in the filed and I use 12 volt deep cycles for all of my equipment when I'm out there. I have 4 100 amp hour batteries for that . So if I really need battery power I have it.
My only real issue now is finding a way to remount that spare tire. I hate it being under the camper like that.
Will have to carry it in the back of my truck for now.
Part of the reason for having a camper is my other hobby. Astronomy. There are many of us who gather to observe while camping. They call them star parties. I call it a field of nerds lol .
And just in case anyone is interested.
I run a small one myself called ECVAR.
http://nightskyobservatory.wixsite.com/ecvar
and my website is http://nightskyobservatory.wixsite.com/nightskyobservatory
Jim T
[quote timestamp="1474329454" source="/post/24754/thread" author="@david"][p]Jim:
Thanks for the step pics. Now we just have to find out who makes them.[/p][p]
[/p][p]Edit: I just found this on Amazon [a href="https://www.amazon.com/Lippert-341500-Double-Manual-Radius/dp/B00JMHHFVE/ref=sr_1_16?ie=UTF8&qid=1474330582&sr=8-16&keywords=rv+steps"]https://www.amazon.com/Lippert-341500-Double-Manual-Radius/dp/B00JMHHFVE/ref=sr_1_16?ie=UTF8&qid=1474330582&sr=8-16&keywords=rv+steps[/a][/p][/quote][font size="3"]There's a dimensioned drawing on E-trailer.com.[/font]
And the hits just keep on coming. I leave out today ( LATE NOW ) for our first trip with new 16 TBS. Last night I started the fridge on gas so it would be cool for items today.
UH YEAH ABOUT THAT. After troubleshooting with Sunny Island RV ( guy named Brad , good guy) We have found the Dometic fridge to be DOA also. Does not work on GAS or DC or AC.
Now my one main trip of the year each year is kind of spoiled by this. I do have a cooler that I plug in and it does work about as well just can't freeze any items. This is just icing on the FREAKING CAKE. I am really starting to think Livin Lite's are a POS. OH and to top it off now my inside lights don't work after plugging in the cooler to the DC outlet. Hope it is just a blown fuse.
Yes I can blame LL. They put it in and they should have tested it along with Sunny Island RV. To me this looks as if nobody did a dang thing. Again lazy useless workers. All the way around. Nobody must have waited around for it to get the coils hot in the back. only takes about 20 or 30 minutes. Then you know it is cooling. Does not matter that you can see the gas burner working if the coils don't get hot, just for get it. Same goes for the Ac and DC .
Oh they will cover it under warranty sure, but WHAT DA HAYEL ? I did not pay for a new camper to start warranty repairs before it even goes on it's first trip.
Really P O'd now with LL. Guess you can tell. Right now I say Don't buy a thing from LL. They are POS and if someone ask me I will say as much. I may even put a sign on the back of mine, saying do not even look at buying this POS , it's JUNK.
Rant over now.
Sorry.
Jim T
While unfortunate, your problems are not unique when it comes to the RV industry. I hope the dealer can get everything sorted out for you...once the initial problems are resolved it should still be much more durable then nearly any other camper.
Jim,
ust read your post about the long list of problems with your brand new 16TBS. What a tremendous disappointment!
I am a new owner of a Camplite TT as well (picked up a 2015 16DBS a few months ago). During the orientation the technician warned us about the fridge. He mentioned that it was one of the most common phone calls they get at the dealership. He told us to run the fridge for at least one day and one night (at setting #2), as it could take that long to begin cooling, let alone freezing. We plugged the RV into the house (with the adaptor) and turned the fridge to 'auto'. The dealer was right, it took that long, and even then I was not convinced it would ever get cold enough to freeze. But we went camping in it anyway, and kept the fridge going on propane. By the end of that first day we had cold drinks and the ice cream in the freezer was doing great.
I don't know anything about coils in the fridge, but why not turn on your fridge and give it one more go, you have nothing to lose at this point...
I hope this will all get sorted out, and that when the repairs are completed you will be able to go have some fun with your trailer and forget about the rough start.
Karen
Karen
I'm doing just that while in the campground with shore line power. Never seen one of my old campers take this long to cool down ,but while sitting here why not try.
My fingers are crossed.
The RV doc comes on Monday to look and maybe replace this one if not. Ya have to love the RV doctor. He comes to the campground and can fix or replace anything just about. He may have to wait a few days on the fridge though if I need one.
OOO OOO just checked it now. Seems cooler than before. Not cold but cooler. Wishful thinking or just colder out here last night . Higher hopes now.
Jim T
On my 2013 with the 5 CF Dometic fridge it does take a full day and a half at least before it's really cold. If the lights on the control panel come on and it appears that it's working I'd say keep it on, it may just be slower than you expect.
OK we have a update.
Now I have to eat crow. Although there were still many things wrong with my new camper ( none being show stoppers now ) my fridge does seem to be working.
On AC power here at the campground it ran all night. Now it is cold and working. Even the freezer part seems to be getting really cold now.
So with that said I take back the part about LL is a POS statement.
Now I can understand it did not cool at my house on DC power, battery went low and I can understand why it did not cool on AC power at my house ( drop cord to long and voltage drop was to much ) Although my old ones worked on that same drop cord and last fridge was much bigger. Still I can buy off on all of that.
AH ,but what about the GAS feed you ask ? Well I'm not sure and I have it on gas now that it is cold here at the campground. If it gets warmer I will know the gas part does not cool correctly. If it stays cold and starts freezing items ( makes ice tray ice ) then even the gas works and again ( JIM EATS CROW ). Trust me when I say I would rather have crow for dinner.
I have this thought that maybe it does take way longer than my old ones ( Karen is right on with that one ) and add to that I was trying to cool it down on a 90 degree day. Combine the two and you have my results. Right now I at least know for fact it works on AC. Better than nothing and odds are much greater it does work all around 100%.
Will update on gas in about 4 or 6 hours.
For now I think I am out of the trouble woods and OK. Fingers crossed.
mmm CROW. It's what's for dinner.
Jim T.
Have a BBQ. Anything tastes good when you BBQ!
Jim,
If you are in a Campground and have AC hook up leave your frig on Auto and the gas bottles open. If there is a power outage the frig automatically switches over to propane. A great feature if you are out of camp and the campground loses power. The frig does takes longer to cool down then a household frig. I usually turn our frig on propane the night before we travel. By the next morning it has started to get cold. Also the DC power just does not really work that well. I tried it on a 5 hour drive and it could not keep things cool. So I leave it on gas mode while traveling. We also have camped in Hot July for a week with no issues running on propane.
[font size="3"]Jim,
On your old fridge, be sure you are comparing apples to apples. If the old fridge was a compressor type it will cool much faster. Compressor refrigerators are like residential models, but they will not run on propane. That's the price we pay for the propane option. BTW, my personal opinion is you should just forget the 12 VDC option. It's totally useless unless you just need to discharge your battery quickly. When camped I leave my fridge set on the coldest setting, 5. I expect it to reach 32F overnight, leaving maximum room for warm up during the day. Also keeping the fridge full so it has a lot of thermal mass and adding a battery powered circulating fan will help maintain temperature as the fridge is used and the outside air warms up.
[/font]
That is great news Jim!
(I did not know there are "RV Doctors"... that could be an interesting job.)
Karen
The RV doctor is not cheap and he has his hands full on the million dollar rigs too. Simple systems like we have are nothing to him.
He can save a camping trip for sure though. In most cases he charges more for that very reason. The local one around here does really good work. I will give him that. His trailer is about 30 feet long.It is a rolling work shop for sure. He can fabricate weld and just about anything else a dealer can. He doesn't have a ware house to store lager items such as AC units and fridges ,but he can get them inside a few days most times he says.
These kind of repair men are a good idea and becoming more and more frequent too.
May want to check that the gas supply line valve located right before the burner is in open position...if you haven't already. Dealer pointed that out to us as a common issue. Then again, it would likely continue "clicking"...trying to ignite the flame in gas mode.
OK sorry for the delay. Having way to much fun on this first TBS outing. Although I did eat crow on the fridge ( WORKS LIKE A CHAMP ) Livin Lite gets the RV Doctor bill for the AC unit failure. LOL There is a small almost 10" long duct that comes from top to bottom inside the AC unit that was not connected correctly at the factory when installed. You may or may not notice the unit is only pumping out about half it's air. It will be noticed once it freezes up on you and stops working. That was fixed easy enough after sweating for many hours. There are 6 screws that hold that AC grill on inside. Can you find them all? LOL
The more we use this camper this week THE WAY MORE WE THINK IT WAS A GREAT PURCHASE. All the other astronomers are jealous now.
he he he
It did come with many craftsmanship issues. Way more than anyone should expect to have. In my case all small. Now that they are worked out all is good with our little TBS.
( Loving the Livin )
I have a 2017 14 DBS and the fit and finish is pretty good on mine. Had it since mid August and had no issues since then. I had a 2014 Airstream previously and I would say the F&F is similar with the Airstream being more than twice the price.
Here's your next and biggest worry, Start checking your frame welds big problem with Livin Lite trailers you only have a year warranty on your frame.
Frame welds has not nor ever been a big problem. Pretty much every one that has had an issue, or thought they had, has posted here on the forum.
I actually think our frames, because they are constructed from aluminum, not painted, coated, nor undercoated do not hide any imperfections.
I have been in the RV industry for many years and have seen many steel RV frames both in motorized and towable products in construction before being powder coated, painted and undercoated.
All may have been structurally sound. Not every weld needs nor should be continuous and some cases may actually be a tack weld to hold a piece in place while the weld that makes that piece structurally sound is at another location.
Once this steel frame, that will eventually rust, is powder coated, or painted, and undercoated it hides all the good/bad and ugly welds.
The warranty on Livinlite products is outlined in your owners manual. It has changed throughout the years.
As of the 2017 model year there is a 2 year limited warranty and prior to that there was a 1 year limited and 3 year structural warranty.
- Dan
We too have had quality issues. Some have nothing to do with LivinLite, because the problem came from the supplier. The dealer is also paid to inspect and fix obvious factory mistakes. We believe our unit was used as a demo model. The dealer had 2 weeks to correct problems that were obvious. They knew ahead of time that we were coming 1000 miles to buy the trailer. A buyer doesn't see leaks when you pick up in a garage at the dealership. Later you suspect something when they are replacing the queen bed with a new one still in the plastic. You later discover a broken vent cover over the bed. Who knows where it was broken? There are other things like the metal shavings that could be easily vacuumed at the factory. Would you rather have wood sawdust hidden from the buyer rotting or growing mold? Yes, LivinLite could do a better job, but I agree the other RV's that I have owned have had worse quality issues.
At times I have been bummed out about quality issues. Then I stop and remember two separate month trips to Florida, a two month trip to Oregon, California, Washington, and the northern states to the Great Lakes with nothing going wrong that caused us a delay. We went over many different types of topography and more than 20,000 miles. We went on a jet boat up the Rogue River. We met so many wonderful people that contribute to this forum. I just have to say a big thank you to LivinLite for making a trailer that I think that will still take us to more fascinating places, and still be around for the children. We have walked the campground loops for many years wondering what RV we most wished for. No more since we have our Camplite We have not seen anything we would trade for.
Quote from: @scbillandjane" source="/post/26192/thread" timestamp="1480721859We have walked the campground loops for many years wondering what RV we most wished for. No more since we have our Camplite We have not seen anything we would trade for.
It's funny you wrote this. When my wife and I walk a campground, see a camper going down the highway or make a visit to our local Camping World, we'll look at them and invariably one of us will say, "I like ours better."
I was cleaning up our 2013 21BHS yesterday, and other than the snake that surprised me in the battery box, I was really pleased with how the camper still looks and the shape it is in. When I think how that camper has been at the Grand Canyon, up in Utah, in Tennessee, and all around Florida; it is really amazing how solid it remains.
[quote source="/post/26203/thread" author="@djsamuel" timestamp="1480765888"]
Quote from: @scbillandjane" source="/post/26192/thread" timestamp="1480721859We have walked the campground loops for many years wondering what RV we most wished for. No more since we have our Camplite We have not seen anything we would trade for.
It's funny you wrote this. When my wife and I walk a campground, see a camper going down the highway or make a visit to our local Camping World, we'll look at them and invariably one of us will say, "I like ours better."
I was cleaning up our 2013 21BHS yesterday, and other than the snake that surprised me in the battery box, I was really pleased with how the camper still looks and the shape it is in. When I think how that camper has been at the Grand Canyon, up in Utah, in Tennessee, and all around Florida; it is really amazing how solid it remains.[/quote]I think 2013 must have been a good year for LL. I have had very few issues with my 2013 8518 VRV. I do admit it had some aluminum shavings I had to vacuum up.
We have only had two very minor issues with our 2014 BC7X20, one of which I dealt with myself and the other I have just left alone. First issue was that on a trip back from Idaho we encountered some very high winds in eastern WA, and the passenger side front exterior panel worked its way out from under the leading edge trim, and bowed out a bit. I was able to work it back in under the trim, and a few wacks with a rubber mallet tightened up that trim piece to hold it better. So far so good. In the process of doing that though, I discovered issue #2 - that panel has a protective plastic coating on it that should have been removed before installation. Our trailer doesn't have the continuous side panels of some of the models, instead it has sheets that are a couple of feet wide running top to bottom, with a little overlap at the seams where they are riveted. All of the sheets except that front one had the protective coating removed, but apparently they missed that one before installation. They even stuck the decals on right over the protective sheeting. Not that big of a deal at first, wasn't really noticable, but now after a couple of years, that protective coating is starting to peel. Fixing it is going to require replacing the decals since the coating goes under them. The paint underneath the coating is pristine though.
I haven't bothered doing anything about that either. Peeling that coating off will be a very tedious job at this point, since it has aged and won't come off in a single sheet. At some point I'll probably try a clay bar and see if that removes it. And I'll have to have a vinyl shop cut me two replacement decals, which shouldn't be a real big deal since they are just plain black and designed to make the front edge look more rounded than it actually is. My other option is to remove those decals on the other side of the trailer so it all matches...
[quote source="/post/26208/thread" author="@billmoore" timestamp="1480794602"]We have only had two very minor issues with our 2014 BC7X20, one of which I dealt with myself and the other I have just left alone. First issue was that on a trip back from Idaho we encountered some very high winds in eastern WA, and the passenger side front exterior panel worked its way out from under the leading edge trim, and bowed out a bit. I was able to work it back in under the trim, and a few wacks with a rubber mallet tightened up that trim piece to hold it better. So far so good. In the process of doing that though, I discovered issue #2 - that panel has a protective plastic coating on it that should have been removed before installation. Our trailer doesn't have the continuous side panels of some of the models, instead it has sheets that are a couple of feet wide running top to bottom, with a little overlap at the seams where they are riveted. All of the sheets except that front one had the protective coating removed, but apparently they missed that one before installation. They even stuck the decals on right over the protective sheeting. Not that big of a deal at first, wasn't really noticable, but now after a couple of years, that protective coating is starting to peel. Fixing it is going to require replacing the decals since the coating goes under them. The paint underneath the coating is pristine though.
I haven't bothered doing anything about that either. Peeling that coating off will be a very tedious job at this point, since it has aged and won't come off in a single sheet. At some point I'll probably try a clay bar and see if that removes it. And I'll have to have a vinyl shop cut me two replacement decals, which shouldn't be a real big deal since they are just plain black and designed to make the front edge look more rounded than it actually is. My other option is to remove those decals on the other side of the trailer so it all matches...[/quote]You could go to one of those skin places (not that kind!) and have the front of your trailer look like it is open to the interior or something else cool.
Kinda like this:
The panel I'm referring to is everything in front of that first line of rivets in the picture below. The decals are the swoops at the top and bottom front edge. Those are the only affected decals...
[quote timestamp="1480794783" author="@pinstriper" source="/post/26209/thread"]
Quote from: @billmoore" source="/post/26208/thread" timestamp="1480794602We have only had two very minor issues with our 2014 BC7X20, one of which I dealt with myself and the other I have just left alone. First issue was that on a trip back from Idaho we encountered some very high winds in eastern WA, and the passenger side front exterior panel worked its way out from under the leading edge trim, and bowed out a bit. I was able to work it back in under the trim, and a few wacks with a rubber mallet tightened up that trim piece to hold it better. So far so good. In the process of doing that though, I discovered issue #2 - that panel has a protective plastic coating on it that should have been removed before installation. Our trailer doesn't have the continuous side panels of some of the models, instead it has sheets that are a couple of feet wide running top to bottom, with a little overlap at the seams where they are riveted. All of the sheets except that front one had the protective coating removed, but apparently they missed that one before installation. They even stuck the decals on right over the protective sheeting. Not that big of a deal at first, wasn't really noticable, but now after a couple of years, that protective coating is starting to peel. Fixing it is going to require replacing the decals since the coating goes under them. The paint underneath the coating is pristine though.
I haven't bothered doing anything about that either. Peeling that coating off will be a very tedious job at this point, since it has aged and won't come off in a single sheet. At some point I'll probably try a clay bar and see if that removes it. And I'll have to have a vinyl shop cut me two replacement decals, which shouldn't be a real big deal since they are just plain black and designed to make the front edge look more rounded than it actually is. My other option is to remove those decals on the other side of the trailer so it all matches...
You could go to one of those skin places (not that kind!) and have the front of your trailer look like it is open to the interior or something else cool.
Kinda like this:
[/quote]
One of those would be really cool on the back cargo door, only make it look like the door is open and the bear is standing up looking out the back...
Love to see one of those skins with a Bigfoot!
Quote from: @fasteddieb" source="/post/26213/thread" timestamp="1480799113Love to see one of those skins with a Bigfoot!
This is brilliant idea...hmmmmm.....