I was installing some magnets today to hold up my upper cabinets and one of them stuck to my ceiling. Went in the home to get a larger magnet and it appears that the roof supports and framing around my door/lower windows must be steel. Magnet stuck in multiple locations. I am not that concerned, but just tired of constantly finding out my rig is not the product I thought it was.
[quote timestamp="1464536528" source="/post/21668/thread" author="@wcuhoppytoad"]I was installing some magnets today to hold up my upper cabinets and one of them stuck to my ceiling. Went in the home to get a larger magnet and it appears that the roof supports and framing around my door/lower windows must be steel. Magnet stuck in multiple locations. I am not that concerned, but just tired of constantly finding out my rig is not the product I thought it was. [/quote]That would help explain the jumps in weight we are seeing new models vs old models. More than the solid surface counters and new cabinets might bear. I had been questioned on my findings that my 2013 trailer was only 2750 lbs before but it is verified.
I assume you have no buried ferrous metal fasteners in these areas? Will the magnet stick all along the roof trusses? Seems like a tougher way build to me if they are steel as I thought there was welding there.
Very interesting revelation.
[p]The magnet holds to the ceiling for the whole width of the camper.[/p]
I think the older models continue to go up in value!
[quote timestamp="1464538500" author="@wcuhoppytoad" source="/post/21670/thread"][p]The magnet holds to the ceiling for the whole width of the camper.[/p][/quote]What?!?!?!?!?!
[p]
[img style="" style="max-width:100%;" src="http://i1376.photobucket.com/albums/ah6/wcuhoppytoad/camplite%20steel%207_zps849shody.jpg"][/p]
[img style="max-width:100%;" style="" src="http://i1376.photobucket.com/albums/ah6/wcuhoppytoad/camplite%20steel%201_zps3omarxbx.jpg"]
[img style="max-width:100%;" style="" src="http://i1376.photobucket.com/albums/ah6/wcuhoppytoad/camplite%20steel%204_zpsvxtg2iln.jpg"]
[img style="max-width:100%;" style="" src="http://i1376.photobucket.com/albums/ah6/wcuhoppytoad/camplite%20steel2_zpspquxzxot.jpg"]
(http://i1376.photobucket.com/albums/ah6/wcuhoppytoad/camplite%20steel%206_zpsimengkaw.jpg"%20style=")
[img style="" style="max-width:100%;" src="http://i1376.photobucket.com/albums/ah6/wcuhoppytoad/camplite%20steel%205_zpsqmp8ni7j.jpg"]
[font size="3"]April 1 has long since past! [/font][font size="3"]You have got to be kidding us! Aren't you?? :-S
We may even lose Doug Samuel on this one [attachment id="1435" thumbnail="1"]
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I wish I was bud!!!! I was wishing somebody on here had a great idea as to why this is happening other than the obvious. Kind of sick on my end right now. We all purchase these rigs because we believe in the product and are willing to spend the extra money to own one. Just very upset and feel ripped off.
[font size="3"]Is that last picture in the shower?
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yes
[font size="3"]Maybe I missed my meds this morning. I'm going to have to sit with Jack and Jim on this...............[/font]
It appears you have Al studs in the wall too, correct?
This is incredible. Hope they took care of the dissimilar metals corrosion somehow. This poses new problems for condensation and roof leaks now too.
At least thin wall steel structural tubing is better than wood.....or is it?
Thanks for bringing this forward!
LL ought to be ashamed.
Do you have a lawyer on speed dial?
I have to stop looking. I keep finding more!!! it appears I have a metal roof stud every 4 foot with two within a foot behind the air condition unit. There is two running half way down the front stopping in the middle of curve. There is one located in the slide out to the left of the window.[img style="" style="max-width:100%;" src="http://i1376.photobucket.com/albums/ah6/wcuhoppytoad/camplite%208_zpssbfxhjax.jpg"]
Quote from: @wcuhoppytoad" source="/post/21668/thread" timestamp="1464536528I was installing some magnets today to hold up my upper cabinets and one of them stuck to my ceiling. Went in the home to get a larger magnet and it appears that the roof supports and framing around my door/lower windows must be steel. Magnet stuck in multiple locations. I am not that concerned, but just tired of constantly finding out my rig is not the product I thought it was.
On the one hand, our trailers were advertised as "Wood Free", not necessarily "Steel Free".
On the other hand, I just took a magnet down to our 2014 21BHS (built in 2013) and there's only one place a magnet sticks consistently - along the "seams" in the ceiling:
(https://c5.staticflickr.com/8/7609/26729122044_00aa88c339_z.jpg)
A little around the LED fixtures - I imagine they have a steel frame or similar.
Curious as to when and if something changed!
(http://i1376.photobucket.com/albums/ah6/wcuhoppytoad/camplite%2010_zpsvbfah7pr.jpg"%20style="max-width:100%;)
[img style="" style="max-width:100%;" src="http://i1376.photobucket.com/albums/ah6/wcuhoppytoad/camplite9_zpsrng5hd52.jpg"]
[font size="3"]Do you think you're finding continuous steel sheeting, steel tubing frame members, or just steel screws??
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You could be rich if you have somehow found the long sought after aluminum magnet. Do you have a live jackelope? Left threaded chimney screw? Rainbow farting unicorn? Motorcycle doors? Seriously I'm ready to grab a magnet and investigate my own camper...oh wait... I have a steel frame... I will still check above the floorboards.
Not screws because it remains stuck to the ceiling for the whole width of roof. It acts like it is following a stud because it appears to be no wider than 2 to 3 inches. The side wall studs seem to be on just one side of each window. In the front curve of the unit there seems to be 2 curved studs but it they only run down to the middle of the curve and stops. I watch the videos just now on the Livinlite website showing the "All aluminum structure" (The video with the trailers turning to see all the studs). I have noticed they do not show the 21 footer. Curious if the 21 is built a bit different.
So I also found some ferrous parts in mine. I can't reach most of my roof without a step stool and didn't have one handy. I did confirm I have 1 metal beam in the roof similar to hoppytoad in my bedroom area where the ceiling is lower. I did also find magnetic areas above the window frames. I have different windows than you guys, but I think this must be something to do with the window frames as it seems like there are vertical "strips" that end about 6 inches above the top corner of each window. I also found a spot in my shower, but it was a spot as opposed to a vertical beam or strip. Since I have a 5th wheel it was definitely pre-thor so I can't blame it on "thor cutting corners". I, as previously mentioned, have the superduper corrosion resistant steel frame due to the 5th wheel so that doesn't count.
Have you weighed your trailer at a public scale (CAT) or equivalent? MY 21 BHS weights right at 5000 lbs with all our gear, two full propane tanks, two six volt batteries, electric tongue jack, and steel slide out cargo tray in front cargo area. I need to get an updated weight as the 5000k weight was about one year ago. My tongue weight using a tongue weight scale was exactly 700 lbs. I have got this down to 600 lbs, when using a bike rack on rear bumper with bikes and not loading anything that weights much in the front cargo area. We also put our hang up clothes in the rear until reaching our campsite, again getting the tongue weight down to 600 lbs. If you have that much steel added, your trailer may be several hundred lbs. heavier than older units with a possibly higher tongue weight? Steel is not horrible but LL marketing has been based on all aluminum. Is this the new Normal for LL? Now you know why Thor got rid of the past LL President, he was probably bucking the new owner changes.
Buyer Beware! One cannot ask enough questions these days to make sure you get what you think you are getting! I do not think the dealers know what they are selling.
This is certainly worthy of followup to LL for an explanation. Their website is still plastered all over with the tag-line "all-aluminum structure". Since the stainless steel fasteners they use are not strongly magnetic, there is something going on.
[p]My goal with my post was not to discourage anyone and I really was hoping I could get some clarification as to what I found today. I am upset with my findings but still feel that our units are much better than any run of the mill rigs you can purchase from Camping World. I am only concerned because every time I mount steel aftermarket products to my rig, I always make sure to add a barrier between the two metals. I get worried about how the new company seems to bend words in their advertising and it makes me wonder what else they are bending. Years ago I found wood in my past 13 QBB when trying to repair a leak in our the shower. After I contacted the company they apologized and offered to fix issue. They blamed it on an outside contractor who built the showers, and owned up to the mistake because of their advertising with NO WOOD NO ROT. For years they have had that slogan and just recently removed it from their webpage including the NO RUST. Weight is not a major issue for me but still aware when packing the rig for trips. If there is metal studs anywhere in that rig then the company better change their new slogan from ALL Aluminum Structure to Aluminum Structure with added steel support. We all make our choices by what we read and research. When we get mislead not everyone will be as understanding!!!!! I really would like to hear from the employee from Livinlite who has been given the task to read and respond to this forum. [/p]
There has to be some explanation for this. No way is there steel in the walls or ceiling. We were at the factory twice last fall before ordering our 21BHS and even got an extensive tour of the factory floor where there were numerous trailers in various stages of construction. We walked thru the plant and saw the entire process from the beginning all the way to the end and the only steel I saw were the axles. And this was long after Thor purchased LL (after the change to wood cabinet faces but before the other changes that they've since made to the roof and less axles on some models). We saw only aluminum framing in the sidewalls and ceiling, and an aluminum floor. There has to be something else in there that the magnet is sticking to.
The only plausible explanation is Photoshop.
Didn't LL move the factory from Wakarusa to Topeka IN last fall? Were you in the new factory?
[quote timestamp="1464557687" source="/post/21702/thread" author="@wcuhoppytoad"]I have to stop looking. I keep finding more!!! it appears I have a metal roof stud every 4 foot with two within a foot behind the air condition unit. There is two running half way down the front stopping in the middle of curve. There is one located in the slide out to the left of the window.[/quote]This doesn't sound so bad. I was under the impression every truss was steel. It appears there was some strengthening/stiffening done using steel.
Minor revision for good reason probably.
I will no longer set my trailer ablaze in defiance.
This last spring (March-ish), there was another change in LL management from Crossroads RV to K-Z RV. Did that also involve a another local change in factory location, in addition to the earlier move from Wakarusa, IN, to Topeka, IN?
I just got out a magnet and checked our 9/14 construction 2015 16TBS and the only hidden steel is apparently a strip under the interior ceiling Azdel seams.
Quote from: @montedtrotter1" source="/post/21717/thread" timestamp="1464570676Didn't LL move the factory from Wakarusa to Topeka IN last fall? Were you in the new factory?
We were in the new factory in Topeka.
Dollars to doughnuts the new roof design needs such struts. Since the underlayment in the new roof design is supposedly Azdel I wonder about the transitions between sheets. This owner is finding steel at exactly 4' increments, with one sheet ripped as a filler sheet, just like the Azdel sheet width.
My, how it boggles the mind...
[quote timestamp="1464575893" source="/post/21719/thread" author="@sandroad"]
I just got out a magnet and checked our 9/14 construction 2015 16TBS and the only hidden steel is apparently a strip under the interior ceiling Azdel seams. [/quote]Those caps are normally inserted into steel tracks. The caps snap into place. This system is commonly found in thresholds aka transitions for laminate and tile flooring. http://www.lowes.com/ProductDisplay?partNumber=577608-33674-F162VXP032&langId=-1&storeId=10151&productId=50115783&catalogId=10051&cmRelshp=req&rel=nofollow&cId=PDIO1
[quote source="/post/21685/thread" timestamp="1464550496" author="@charliem"][font size="3"]April 1 has long since past! [/font][font size="3"]You have got to be kidding us! Aren't you?? :-S
We may even lose Doug Samuel on this one
[/font][/quote]This really is disturbing, and deceptive. I'd like to hear an explanation on this one.
Hey, WC. As disgusted as you are with all of this would it be possible for you to use a weaker magnet and trace these areas again? A magnet like those flexible refrigerator ones people use for advertising maybe?.
What you have given us is great but we need to know if they are actually support members or just finish strips for the new roofing style. A weaker magnet would not find those. If you even have the new roof style that is...
[quote source="/post/21727/thread" author="@whoofit" timestamp="1464607144"]Hey, WC. As disgusted as you are with all of this would it be possible for you to use a weaker magnet and trace these areas again? A magnet like those flexible refrigerator ones people use for advertising maybe?.
What you have given us is great but we need to know if they are actually support members or just finish strips for the new roofing style. A weaker magnet would not find those. If you even have the new roof style that is...[/quote]Good thought, but too many variables. One of the weaker fridge magnets might not even reach thruigh the Azdel even if there were a steel I-beam under there. I have trouble with some of those working on the fridge through thicker paper!
Future buyers really need to know from the factory: 1) whether there is structural steel in the trailer and 2) how the steel that obviously is in there is treated so it won't rust or cause problems with the aluminum.
I'm not gonna believe in this until someone cuts open their trailer and finds out for sure. Someone needs to do this, for the good of all.
Not me. But someone.
Out of curiosity I checked my 2013 13 QBB and found 3 places where a magnet stuck to the ceiling. It appears that there are straps approximately 3 to 4 inches wide across the width of the camper. One is aligned with the front of the kitchen counter/cabinets and then one on each side of the entry door.
I took a look at the 2013 Livinlite video where Scott Tuttle shows the frame of the campers and I couldn't see anything other than aluminum tube but the shots of those areas weren't all that great.
I'm just going to assume that somewhere along the way they decided they wanted a few stiffeners.
[p]My unit has the old style roof with one constant sheet. I spent the night in the camper last night (driveway camping) and kept looking up at the ceiling trying to come to any conclusion as to why there would be metal supports or tubing. Could they have installed this tubing to run the electrical wiring. I kept on thinking about the two places in the front of the camper in the curve. They basically run down the front curve in about the same location as the front running lights. Just a thought!!! [/p]
[font size="3"]I don't see steel conduit for wiring. Plastic loom is much less expensive, easier to install, and quite adequate. I'm more inclined to think the steel is related to the overall fabrication process. Some simplification or material/cost/labor saving thing. Under Scott Tuttle's leadership LL had an absolute religious devotion to aluminum. Thor has a similar metallic devotion, but to gold and silver.
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OK, folks, this thread sent us out this morning to our 2015 21BHS (Manufacture date of October 2014) armed with only weak refrigerator magnets. We have not taken pictures yet, but the magnets stuck to the following places:
SHOWER
1. Horizontally across street side interior wall slightly less than halfway down from the top and running behind the mesh pouch hanging on the wall
2. Another horizontal band approximately 4 or 5 inches below the one described above, and then a solid rectangular area between these two under the mesh pouch
3. Just barely inside the shower wall on the back end of the camper starting just below the curtain rod and running all the way down to the floor just inside the aluminum frame of the shower
LOWER BUNK BED AREA
1. Curb side back corner from bottom of the top bunk, then all the length of the bunk bed just next to(above) the bed frame/storage compartment support, stopping about 10 - 12 inches from the corner next to the kitchen cabinet wall
2. Then checked in the storage compartment and found the same pattern just beneath the bed support frame
UPPER BUNK BED AREA (ONLY what I could reach standing on a very small step stool - did not climb up on the bunk bed!)
1. Lower left window corner area
2. Up the curb side wall at the corner closest to kitchen from bunk platform to ceiling
KITCHEN
1. Stove corner outside wall from counter top to bottom of microwave, then along wall across bottom of microwave
2. INSIDE the upper cabinet above sink - horizontally across outside wall in a band about 2 1/2 to 3 inches tall starting at the bottom
3. Outer left side of upper cabinet - from ceiling to bottom of cabinet, but NOT down the wall right next to the door
4. All kitchen window corners (***actually, all windows in the whole camper had small areas at the corners where magnets stuck on the wall.
5. Some of the ceiling just outside the bathroom door frame
6. Some/most of the ceiling just above the refrigerator
CEILING - all ceiling seams
At that point, I got hot and tired, so I quit for the day. I did not check the front curved wall above the bed, nor did I check inside the wardrobe or the cabinets above the bed.
Not quite sure what to think, but we're definitely surprised. We had assumed that all aluminum structure meant exactly that. Disappointed to find out differently. Still love our camper and look forward to putting many more miles on it and meeting some of you fellow enthusiasts in Oregon.
Using a magnet with 2lb lift rating I found steel plates extending for 2-3 inches from each lighting fixture. Some only at the short sides and some around the full perimeter. When I think about it there needs to be something to screw into up there. Was hoping for Al but alas it is not so.
Also found one run of ceiling steel that cuts across the trailer perpendicular to it's length. It is directly in the center of the trailer.
Makes me wonder how all that steel is joined but I fear I know the answer already. They are thin steel plates that are glued there or "biscuited" into the foam using a hammer. Warms my heat really.
I demand Adamantium.
Science experiment over.
[font size="3"]So with all this interest I went to my 2013 pre-Thor 21RBS, magnets in hand, to check. Using a strong magnet I did find places around dual ceiling light fixtures and in the shower wall. The light fixtures probably have backing plates; the shower is an assembly from a third party vendor. I also detected weak attraction along ceiling joints and some places around windows. Again I think these are fastening and backing hardware. The areas I did find would not support a weak fridge magnet. This is like when we discovered some wood in the entry door construction. It's almost impossible, and certainly cost prohibitive, to insist all suppliers adhere to an all aluminum requirement. As long as the structure remains aluminum and the floor/walls/ceiling remain non-wood I think we're OK. What does concern me is Wcuhoppytoad's finding in the curved front wall. That needs explanation. Per Whoofit I'm not burning my trailer yet, though I hope it wouldn't (woodn't?) burn, but I'm keeping my old CL for now.
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My 2016 21BHS is similar to what CharlieM just described. I don't have anything like the pics by the original poster.
I am sorry I must have missed these posts. All of these instances are because of the metal backers used in the lamination process. These backers have been used in the construction of all of our products from day 1.
There are also stainless steel fasteners, but what I have seen here is all from backers. Around all windows or anyplace where there may be a cabinet installed you will find them. Even the round front wall in the travel trailers because there is an option for a front overhead bunk and when it is used there are also backers for the front overhead cabinets. Basically anything that fastens to the wall, unless it is on an existing aluminum tube will utilize a backer. Screws just don't hold into lamination grade foam to well and the .030 steel backer sheet holds screws much better than the same in aluminum sheet.