[font size="3"]I just made this mod today to remove the small breakeaway battery and rewire the brake to the main battery. As supplied the breakaway system uses a small motorcycle battery that is NOT recharged by the main converter or the TV. Thus it must be checked and recharged manually to main its function. CL is the only manufacturer I know of that does this. All other trailers rely on the main trailer battery. This was originally discussed in
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[font size="3"][a href="http://livinlite-owners.com/thread/1069/breakaway-brakes-system-require-maintenance"]http://livinlite-owners.com/thread/1069/breakaway-brakes-system-require-maintenance[/a]
To recap [/font][font size="3"]my previous post, there is a very simple way of implementing this mod. All the wires required are in the small rectangular junction box next to the breakaway battery.
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[font size="3"][attachment id="977" thumbnail="1"][/font][font size="3"]
The black wire from the breakaway switch to the positive of the breakaway battery (BB) runs through this box and exits on the top left. It then goes directly to the BB positive. The second terminal from the left, with the heavy red wire on the bottom, is the house battery positive. That red wire goes directly to the positive of the house battery. So just disconnect the BB positive, pull a little slack into the junction box, cut and install a crimp lug, and connect to the second leftmost terminal. Remove BB and place on your desk as paperweight. Now your breakaway system will always be ready and you save 3-1/2 pounds of tongue weight ;)
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I would really like Christian to follow up on this. My dealer swore the breakaway battery was recharged. I'm not sure I believe them - it would be perfectly sensible for them to expect that this is so, and just say it, without actually knowing.
It seems to me you could wire it in parallel with the main battery, and it would recharge, and also add just a tiny bit of extra capacity. But the whole point of this battery is to be available even if the main is fully discharged - nothing should draw off this battery.
There's gotta be a conceptually simple way to accomplish this to be wired correctly. Maybe doing this to our rigs could be a fun activity at the PWN rally ?
Personally, I haven't checked it because:
1) It is mounted below the tongue frame which is...
2) Pretty far for an old fat man to bend down, and...
3) That would mean getting on my back and shimmying on the blacktop so I could get to it, which - old, fat, lazy ....
4) Is only made worse by the fact that they zip-tied the compartment shut, so I'd need to turn the garage upside down looking for a wire cutters and...
5) Also find a new, never-before-zipped zip-tie to secure the battery cover again after checking, recharging, looking at it while scratching my head.
Meh, I'm just gonna assume its fine and also that I'll never actually get disconnected in transit.
[quote source="/post/16863/thread" timestamp="1448847951" author="@pinstriper"]I would really like Christian to follow up on this. My dealer swore the breakaway battery was recharged. I'm not sure I believe them - it would be perfectly sensible for them to expect that this is so, and just say it, without actually knowing.
It seems to me you could wire it in parallel with the main battery, and it would recharge, and also add just a tiny bit of extra capacity. But the whole point of this battery is to be available even if the main is fully discharged - nothing should draw off this battery.
There's gotta be a conceptually simple way to accomplish this to be wired correctly. Maybe doing this to our rigs could be a fun activity at the PWN rally ?
Personally, I haven't checked it because:
1) It is mounted below the tongue frame which is...
2) Pretty far for an old fat man to bend down, and...
3) That would mean getting on my back and shimmying on the blacktop so I could get to it, which - old, fat, lazy ....
4) Is only made worse by the fact that they zip-tied the compartment shut, so I'd need to turn the garage upside down looking for a wire cutters and...
5) Also find a new, never-before-zipped zip-tie to secure the battery cover again after checking, recharging, looking at it while scratching my head.
Meh, I'm just gonna assume its fine and also that I'll never actually get disconnected in transit.
[/quote][font size="3"]Your dealer is wrong as usual. The breakaway battery (BB) is not charged on Camplites. It requires an external charger and there is even a label stating the battery must be checked before each trip. To facilitate this they sealed the battery box with a zip tie. Go figure. I replaced the zip tie with a small carabiner before I made this mod.
There are ways to charge the BB, but they are complex and expensive. It's fairly easy to have a relay sense shore power and then connect the BB and the trailer battery in parallel. That would charge the BB from the on board converter when plugged in and disconnect when not plugged in. Fine where shore power is available.
Charging the BB from the TT is more complicated and charging from the TV has its own set of problems. It's difficult to charge one 12V battery from another 12V battery. Tekonsha makes a DC to DC charger for this purpose, but it costs $26+ and would require mounting. This would work if plugin shore power was unavailable for long periods of time.
All in all the benefit of the separate BB seems limited for the added trouble and risk of not having the breakaway safety function when you need it.
In the pre ChristianM era a I asked LL for their reasoning on this configuration, but never got an answer. It would be interesting to hear from them and/or find out from recent buyers if LL is still supplying the separate BB.
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I totally agree with Charlie's comments. The only possible use for a separate battery, totally isolated from the trailer's main battery is if you become disconnected while towing and the main battery is flat. In my case that isn't going to happen and in the great, great majority of users it isn't going to happen either. In addition the odds of my little BB going flat are much greater than the main battery because it is out of sight out of mind.
Do what Charlie did. Wire the breakaway switch to the main battery like almost everyone else does and get rid of the BB.
David
Isn't there a ground wire from the BB that has to be connected somewhere?? I want to get rid of the BB on my trailer, also. Doesn't make any sense. I had extended the wires to be outside the box, so that I could attach a battery tender to them easily, but I had also asked D&H about it and they encouraged me to eliminate the extra battery. Thanks.
[font size="3"]There is a ground wire on the BB, but it won't be used after you do the mod. The mod connects the brakeaway circuit to the positive of the main battery. The main battery is already grounded to the frame and so are the brake magnets. After I performed the simple mod I verified brake operation by pulling the disconnect cable switch. I measured about 14 Amps coming from the main battery with shore power disconnected.
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Too easy. Thanks!!
Great mod. In addition to not having to check and worry about the breakaway battery, the main battery can supply enough amps to work the brakes; something I've wondered if the tiny little battery installed by LL can do. As added "insult to injury", the sticker on my breakaway system reads that a minimum of a 12V 12AH battery must be used. LL (or the dealer) installed a 12V 5AH battery. This mod will be done on my Camplite before it gets towed again.
Note to Pinstriper.....if you've not checked your breakaway battery, it is dead. Mine was after only 5 months, starting from a full charge. They self-discharge.
They do seem to self discharge quickly, but the AGM batteries used in BBs should not. Our trailer was made in January, purchased in March, and by July the BB was dead. AGMs are only supposed to discharge a few percent each month. Go figure.
David
[font size="3"]A use for the unused brake battery box: A wireless remote reading thermometer. Place the sensor for your outside wireless thermometer in it and close with a twist of wire. Out of the sun and out of the rain. No need to pack it before leaving; no leaving it behind at the campsite.
Now. What to do with the 4AH battery?
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The dealer got rid of my 4AH battery & installed a deep cell marine battery for the main CampLite battery, powers emergency trailer brake application, too.
Use my CampLite main battery to power my trolling motor on a small fishing boat, too. For those that have the original 4AH battery, it could power a trolling motor if adequate, or it can be used as a core trade-in battery for a adequate battery.
Another thought, my last motorcycle project came without battery, a 4AH battery could be used on your next motorcycle project, or traded in on an adequate battery. Lawnmower projects count, too.
Thinking out loud, again!!!!!!!!!! :)
I thinking I could use it to create a trap that will deter (read that as, really really deter in a most permanent kind of way) the chipmunks that seem to enjoy hiding from dog by jumping on top of the axle thereby causing my dog to go ballistic.
Can't help with the chipmunk trap, but I did just complete the breakaway battery re-wire. I'll use the battery box for my wireless remote temperature sensor.
For the wiring, Charlie's description and procedure are accurate. I was confused at first by the fact LL (or the dealer; I'm not sure who installs the breakaway system) had hooked up the battery backward. Once I figured that out, following Charlie's notes worked great.
[quote timestamp="1448824735" source="/post/16846/thread" author="@charliem"][font size="3"]I just made this mod today to remove the small breakeaway battery and rewire the brake to the main battery. As supplied the breakaway system uses a small motorcycle battery that is NOT recharged by the main converter or the TV. Thus it must be checked and recharged manually to main its function. CL is the only manufacturer I know of that does this. All other trailers rely on the main trailer battery. This was originally discussed in
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[font size="3"][a href="http://livinlite-owners.com/thread/1069/breakaway-brakes-system-require-maintenance"]http://livinlite-owners.com/thread/1069/breakaway-brakes-system-require-maintenance[/a]
To recap [/font][font size="3"]my previous post, there is a very simple way of implementing this mod. All the wires required are in the small rectangular junction box next to the breakaway battery.
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The black wire from the breakaway switch to the positive of the breakaway battery (BB) runs through this box and exits on the top left. It then goes directly to the BB positive. The second terminal from the left, with the heavy red wire on the bottom, is the house battery positive. That red wire goes directly to the positive of the house battery. So just disconnect the BB positive, pull a little slack into the junction box, cut and install a crimp lug, and connect to the second leftmost terminal. Remove BB and place on your desk as paperweight. Now your breakaway system will always be ready and you save 3-1/2 pounds of tongue weight ;)
[/font][/quote]In the photo, do you know which junction box terminal the other black wire out of the breakaway switch is attached to? The battery + wire is one of the wires from the switch and as you describe is now (post mod) attached to the red wires in the junction box. Since this mod didn't work for me, I'm trying to figure out where the other black wire out of the breakaway switch goes. It should go to the blue brake wires in the box, but there are only 2 wires attached to that terminal in the junction box, brake controller in/out.
[quote timestamp="1460942576" author="@sandroad" source="/post/20628/thread"][span][a href="/user/281" title="@sandroad"][span]Merlin[/span][/a][/span] said:[font size="3"]
[/font]In the photo, do you know which junction box terminal the other black wire out of the breakaway switch is attached to? The battery + wire is one of the wires from the switch and as you describe is now (post mod) attached to the red wires in the junction box. Since this mod didn't work for me, I'm trying to figure out where the other black wire out of the breakaway switch goes. It should go to the blue brake wires in the box, but there are only 2 wires attached to that terminal in the junction box, brake controller in/out. [/quote][font size="3"]Not sure where the other wire from the break away switch is or goes. It should eventually tie to the brake magnet lead, which if I remember, was blue. I'm thinking there is another junction somewhere since there are four separate brake wires, one from each wheel, underneath. They must tie together somewhere and result in one wire going to the junction box. Tonight my guess is the four wheel wires come together with the remaining switch wire and become one of the blue wires in the junction box. [/font][font size="3"]If I remember tomorrow I'll see if I can locate the other switch wire. [/font][font size="3"]The black wire tied to the second leftmost terminal (with the red lead also) should exit the box on the right and go back tho the break away switch. There should only be one wire left in the old BB box, the negative wire, and that can be discarded. [/font]
[quote source="/post/20631/thread" timestamp="1460944134" author="@charliem"][quote source="/post/20628/thread" timestamp="1460942576" author="@sandroad"][span][a title="@sandroad" href="/user/281"][span]Merlin[/span][/a][/span] said:[font size="3"]
[/font]In the photo, do you know which junction box terminal the other black wire out of the breakaway switch is attached to? The battery + wire is one of the wires from the switch and as you describe is now (post mod) attached to the red wires in the junction box. Since this mod didn't work for me, I'm trying to figure out where the other black wire out of the breakaway switch goes. It should go to the blue brake wires in the box, but there are only 2 wires attached to that terminal in the junction box, brake controller in/out. [/quote][font size="3"]Not sure where the other wire from the break away switch is or goes. It should eventually tie to the brake magnet lead, which if I remember, was blue. I'm thinking there is another junction somewhere since there are four separate brake wires, one from each wheel, underneath. They must tie together somewhere and result in one wire going to the junction box. Tonight my guess is the four wheel wires come together with the remaining switch wire and become one of the blue wires in the junction box. [/font][font size="3"]If I remember tomorrow I'll see if I can locate the other switch wire. [/font][font size="3"]The black wire tied to the second leftmost terminal (with the red lead also) should exit the box on the right and go back tho the break away switch. There should only be one wire left in the old BB box, the negative wire, and that can be discarded. [/font]
[/quote]So here's the story. As Charlie surmised, the other wire from the breakaway switch goes to the blue terminal in the junction box, via a splice into the blue wire that comes from the TV trailer brake controller. So, if the trailer breaks away, the breakaway switch feeds 12VDC into the blue wire to activate the trailer brakes. The reason the original modification (connecting the power wire to the breakaway switch directly to the house battery wire in the junction box) didn't work for me is because the breakaway switch on my trailer was broken and didn't make the connection.
I even figured how it got damaged. When we left the dealer with our brand new trailer in 2014, the first bump in the road popped the trailer tongue off the hitch because the dealer technician who connected up the trailer didn't get the ball seated fully. When the tongue jack hit the pavement, the breakaway wire got caught under it and jerked the breakaway switch sideways which broke it internally. The dealer gave me a new breakaway wire, but putting that on is all they did. Bad on me that I never checked the operation of the breakaway system and didn't know the switch was broken inside until now. I'm installing a new Fastway breakaway switch today. One wire to the battery + terminal and one wire to the blue wire terminal in the junction box and I'll be good to go (or stop as the case may be).
I got to spend some time with my 21rbs this weekend and found the most interesting thing.
First, my Breakaway battery was dead, and won't charge, this is especially upsetting as I just bought a new one and installed it fully charged a month ago. Something is not right.
I put a tester on the leads to the this battery, first in volts to see if there was any voltage (lessons learned from so many blown fuses when hooking the ohm meter up to a live circuit), much to my surprise I found 13.5 volts (the trailer was plugged in at the time). Opening the junction box I found the break away battery hooked in parallel with the house battery (?????).
Now I know what happened. Since I disconnect the house battery when in storage, the phantom current (lp detector, radio, and all that other stuff) killed the battery as it was drawing from it (remember, in parallel). Since using the house battery is the desired operation, I have removed the breakaway battery, and left things as is (tested and the breaks do come on when the switch is activated).
I think that Livinlite needs to explain things in their manual better.
[font size="3"]Yep. Welcome to the club of owners who have removed the break away battery. Interesting that you found them wired in parallel. Most CLs come with the break away battery just sitting there and requiring separate charging every six months. Go figure.
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[quote source="/post/16846/thread" timestamp="1448824735" author="@charliem"][font size="3"]I just made this mod today to remove the small breakeaway battery and rewire the brake to the main battery. As supplied the breakaway system uses a small motorcycle battery that is NOT recharged by the main converter or the TV. Thus it must be checked and recharged manually to main its function. CL is the only manufacturer I know of that does this. All other trailers rely on the main trailer battery. This was originally discussed in
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[font size="3"][a href="http://livinlite-owners.com/thread/1069/breakaway-brakes-system-require-maintenance"]http://livinlite-owners.com/thread/1069/breakaway-brakes-system-require-maintenance[/a]
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[/font][/quote]Many thanks to charliem and others on this thread. Just made the mod today and will feel much safer for me and others behind us on our next trip. Wonder how many Livinlite'rs are driving around with dead breakaway batteries....
Can someone take a picture of what this battery looks like?
[font size="3"]On the tongue the battery is housed in this enclosure:
[attachment id="1449" thumbnail="1"]
When removed the battery looks like this:
[attachment id="1450" thumbnail="1"]
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Thanks, Charliem for the pictures. I have a 2016 TBS but do not have this battery. I have wires coming and going from the breakaway switch to the junction box under the battery box.
[font size="3"]Good. I had thought it would be just a matter of time before LL (Thor) deleted the extra battery and wired into the main battery like all other companies do. We never could get an answer on why LL used that extra bettery. You're good to go.
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OK need a little help or advice. Pulled the breakaway pin out on the electric brakes this weekend (it does not have a separate battery) and when I picked up the pin in found a large rubber O ring about 6" in diameter and about an 1/8" thick. Does not look like a seal for the connection box since it's bigger than the box. Any idea what it is?
That's probably the seal for the flux capacitor.
[quote source="/post/22105/thread" author="@ammobob" timestamp="1465771942"]OK need a little help or advice. Pulled the breakaway pin out on the electric brakes this weekend (it does not have a separate battery) and when I picked up the pin in found a large rubber O ring about 6" in diameter and about an 1/8" thick. Does not look like a seal for the connection box since it's bigger than the box. Any idea what it is?[/quote][font size="3"]Did you have the connection box open? I don't recall if that box had an O ring seal and I can't get to it right now. Seems like ~6' diameter (18.9" circumference) might be about right. If not, maybe it's the compact spare tire ;) .[/font]
Quote from: @charliem" timestamp="1465777544" source="/post/22107/threadQuote from: @ammobob" source="/post/22105/thread" timestamp="1465771942OK need a little help or advice. Pulled the breakaway pin out on the electric brakes this weekend (it does not have a separate battery) and when I picked up the pin in found a large rubber O ring about 6" in diameter and about an 1/8" thick. Does not look like a seal for the connection box since it's bigger than the box. Any idea what it is?
[font size="3"]Did you have the connection box open? I don't recall if that box had an O ring seal and I can't get to it right now. Seems like ~6' diameter (18.9" circumference) might be about right. If not, maybe it's the compact spare tire ;) .[/font]
Good point though I did check it around the box and it was a lot bigger. I did not open the box but will tonight just to check and eliminate that possibility.
Quote from: @charliem" source="/post/21848/thread" timestamp="1464818073[font size="3"]We never could get an answer on why LL used that extra battery.
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The value of a separate breakaway battery is that it can provide you a breakaway system that works should your house battery be dead or not installed. The reality is dead batteries do happen and sorry to say but I think most trailer owners wouldn't let a dead battery stop them from towing -- even though by doing so they are disregarding safe practice if the breakaway system is wired to that dead battery.
I'm happy having the little breakaway battery, especially after replacing it with >> [a href="http://livinlite-owners.com/thread/1166/tekonsha-breakaway-system-integrated-charger"]Tekonsha Breakaway System w/ Integrated Multi-Stage Charger[/a] <<. It works well.
[quote timestamp="1465829719" source="/post/22120/thread" author="@peislander"]
Quote from: @charliem" timestamp="1464818073" source="/post/21848/thread[font size="3"]We never could get an answer on why LL used that extra battery.
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The value of a separate breakaway battery is that it can provide you a breakaway system that works should your house battery be dead or not installed. The reality is dead batteries do happen and sorry to say but I think most trailer owners wouldn't let a dead battery stop them from towing -- even though by doing so they are disregarding safe practice if the breakaway system is wired to that dead battery.
I'm happy having the little breakaway battery, especially after replacing it with >> [a href="http://livinlite-owners.com/thread/1166/tekonsha-breakaway-system-integrated-charger"]Tekonsha Breakaway System w/ Integrated Multi-Stage Charger[/a] <<. It works well.[/quote][font size="3"]I agree that was probably the original design goal for trailers that didn't have a battery to start with. IIRC Scott Tuttle started with light weight utility or toy hauler trailers and expanded to the camper market. Probably just a hold over. But given the little box with the uncharged battery and the tiny warning label I ask:
[ol type="decimal"][li]How many folks will find and remember to charge the battery? Very few.
[/li][li]How long will the TV take to recharge a dead battery enough to stop the runaway TT, at least equal to the uncharged forgotten 4AH battery? Not very long[/li][li]How many dealers will mention the BB on walk through? Zero[/li][li]How often is it mentioned in the owners manual? Zero.
[/li][li]Other than sharp eyed techie readers of this forum, how many folks will add the Tek charger like you did? Zero.[/li][li]How many new members of this forum will even think of or search for your solution? Very few.[/li][/ol][p]
[/p][p]On balance I still think removing it and wiring to the house battery is the best solution, but I applaud your solution and remain ready to accept incoming. 8-)
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Wow, and all I was thinking about were two things:
The amount of time the SLA battery could hold the trailer with dual axles drawing 14A.
The ability of the larger automotive battery to source sufficient current even near 60% SOC.
My trailer came wired to the house battery. I think PEI's setup is cool though.
I hired a pro to tow one of my trailers years ago. He didn't give a dang about no stinking safety brake system. He was the cheapest guy around for a reason...
So at risk of beating this horse just a little deader, I have something that I just cannot make sense of. My breakaway battery is perfect fine. There it is, I've said it and I can't take it back. It's the original battery so somewhere near 3 years old and it doesn't come in for the winter, I just checked it and it reads 12.62 volts. Figuring that was just surface charge I put it on my superduper desulfating monitoring charging kaleidoscopic psychotropic battery minder and after a few minutes that thing said it was fully charged too. That really doesn't make much sense unless....it is being charged while towing?
Sure enough, one way or another, that battery is being charged. There is no possibility of that little battery being 12.62V after 3 years with no charge. Put a meter on that little gem while hooked up to the tow rig sometime and you'll see charging. Wonder how they wired that one?
Mitch -- I suppose it might also be possible that it gets charged whenever it is on shore power by the converter/charger built into the trailer. It seems that & the TV charge are the way the system is supposed to work.
[font size="3"]It does seem like the battery is getting charged. Most likely, without getting really exotic, the two batteries are tied together. That would charge the BB from both TV and converter. Essentially a waste since you connecting a 4AH battery in parallel with the house battery that is [/font][font size="3"]80-220AH depending. Without exotic circuitry the two batteries will charge AND discharge together. The BB will not stay charged when the house battery is discharged.
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In my case the dealer supplied the house battery,
I believe the tiny breakaway battery is just to get it to the dealer and satisfy any legal issues.
After reading this thread I checked my TT and discovered the breakaway battery was as dead as a hammer.
I made the swap to remove the small battery and wire it to the TT battery.
This forum probably saved me from a dangerous situation.
JMHO.
I looked at my 2017 Camplite 21RBS today to see what kind of breakaway system was being used. We took delivery of the trailer about a week ago. The 2 black wires from the breakaway switch disappeared into a junction box. I couldn't find a breakaway battery anywhere under the trailer. The picture below shows the junction box after opening it. The small black wires from the breakaway switch enter the box at the lower right. One of these black wires is attached to the 7th terminal from the left and the other black wire is attached to the 2nd terminal from the left. I'm not sure what these connections are, but the Dexter Axle book indicates blue wires are for the electric brakes and a black wire is the battery charge from the tow vehicle. Unless I'm wrong, it looks like my trailer's breakaway system is being powered from the trailer battery. (http://s10398.storage.proboards.com/5560398/t/s81huNxskjpFPkF1_7Nr.jpg)
[quote source="/post/22706/thread" timestamp="1467336565" author="@smoky"]I looked at my 2017 Camplite 21RBS today to see what kind of breakaway system was being used. We took delivery of the trailer about a week ago. The 2 black wires from the breakaway switch disappeared into a junction box. I couldn't find a breakaway battery anywhere under the trailer. The picture below shows the junction box after opening it. The small black wires from the breakaway switch enter the box at the lower right. One of these black wires is attached to the 7th terminal from the left and the other black wire is attached to the 2nd terminal from the left. I'm not sure what these connections are, but the Dexter Axle book indicates blue wires are for the electric brakes and a black wire is the battery charge from the tow vehicle. Unless I'm wrong, it looks like my trailer's breakaway system is being powered from the trailer battery. (http://s10398.storage.proboards.com/5560398/t/s81huNxskjpFPkF1_7Nr.jpg)
This is one mod I am going to do.