After doing much research, I decided to purchase a 2015 21RBS, (I was unable to inspect the trailer, bought in Fla. and shipped to NY) when I got it home I immediately notice that the trim at the bottom front of the trailer was not applied correctly and that the transition from the roof to the front on the trailer was sloppy, (to say the least). I contacted LL and complained about their QC, I was told that I was correct, the trailer should never have left the factory with the trim in that condition, I was also complimented on being "handy" when I told them I fixed the trim myself. The roof, I was told was because of the camber, there was nothing they could do. It was the only way that the front could meet / join the roof. I've had the trailer for two days now and have notice some "quirky" design issues, nothing I can't live with, QC is another issue. It was stated before, (on this forum) the whole industry has a poor attitude towards quality control, after owning five RV's over the course of my life, nothing could be more true. I will say that I'm looking forward to owning a trailer with no wood, with my other trailers water damage was found only after it was to late.(//)
It's unfortunate, but seems to be "normal" for a low-volume but still competitive market. Niche markets allow for higher markup so someone can obsess over the details for a few days, but LL is competing with companies that probably do 10x the volume with ALL IDENTICAL trailers. LL is able to produce a completely custom trailer for what I consider a reasonable price but QC isn't that great on the details. It would be awesome if it could come off the line with the quality of a car, but car manufacturers probably do 1000x the volume.
If and when I say IF, LL invests in QC they will begin to dominate the market due to quality. Every LL owner bought one due to the perception of "no wood" or perceived better quality. It seems from this forum that LL is making changes to better quality materials albeit slow. They obviously do not have a checks and balances or QC manager that is responsible for final quality as a trailer rolls out the door. Quality costs money and LL may or may not go there. I do not know how Air Stream is holding up (same owner as LL) but historically Air Stream has been known for quality products.
Another issue seems to be with delay of manufacturing; LL does not want to say when they expect delivery even only several days before it is ready; I am still waiting my 21 RBS ordered april 20 th. Wednesday july 15 it was at painting and were told it should be ready soon, july 22 having no news we inquired, to be told that some parts were missing and that we would be informed ASAP of when the parts were due in. Finaly Friday 24 th, we were told that the parts were in and that they should be installed monday 27 th, leaving only the valences, it should not be any longer they say but no date. Today we inquired again and no answer.
Frustrating..., no paperwork seems to be done yet and my dealer cannot schedule the carrier to Quebec. In the meanwhile I am burning vacations and cannot look at a plan B.
Quote from: @monted" source="/post/13767/thread" timestamp="1438122817I do not know how Air Stream is holding up (same owner as LL) but historically Air Stream has been known for quality products.
I spent a fair amount of time on an Airstream Owner's forum - airforums.com - while deciding what kind of trailer to get.
They are beautiful and iconic and I may own one someday. But there is a lot of unhappiness on that forum about really poor quality control, and quality in general, especially in recent years. Filiform corrosion on brand new trailers, chintzy hardware, leaks, rotting floors, poorly fitting cabinets, and on and on.
Anyway, it dissuaded us from spending that kind of money to still face shoddy construction.
As as an aside, went to an Airstream rally in Hiawasee last year. Really great bunch of people, most of whom love their Airstreams, but are quite up front about problems they have.
[p]It's availability that we struggled with. Ours, like yours, had a very sloppy transition from the roof to orb. After the fact of wiring the dealer a $1k deposit to hold it we drove 300mi to pick it up and noticed the lumpy transition. We were told it was normal. Without having another trailer in all of New England to compare with we bought it. After it was home we noticed a leak there. It was hard to find but it was an easy fix. It had leaked for a good long while on the dealers lot as it was a 2yo left over.
The beauty of LL's is a roof leak is a minor flaw and that adds immense value to me.
After fixing the fairly minor flaws we are so happy to own it. Congrats![/p][p]
[/p][p]Need to mention that it will pay to become familiar with your LL bought the way you and I did as the dealer network is sparse where I live and all the major brands that are well represented in my area are most anything but LL. I look at the warranty period on all but the appliances as basic training. You will choose to jump into the ditch and get dirty even before the bullets are whizzing past your head.[/p]
I really like the trailer, I agree, even a leak isn't a major issue to deal with. I've been tweaking the trailer, (inside and out) and am happy with the mod's I've made, as soon as I can figure out how to down load photo's, I'll post them. Thanks for all the feed back.
QC is definitely an industry-wide conversation right now...and it should be! While it's great to hear about "handy" owners, we would love to make products that don't require very much after-market tweaking or fixing. Livin Lite is very aware that we have some work to do in this area, and we WANT to earn repeat owners by making a product that is low maintenance. That being said, if you guys ever run across an issue that continues to pop up, or an issue that you think Livin Lite should hear about, PLEASE don't hesitate to make a thread about it OR contact me directly. I would love to take your concerns, bring them before production, and make the next batch of Livin Lite products be better than before!
Now, that doesn't offer much help to those of you who have already purchased, I know. But hopefully, it's a step in the right direction!
I can't tell you how pleased I am to see christianm's comments on our forums. I always believed, from the time we owned a Lil Snoozy until now with our Camplite, that the manufacturers should read these forums put out by owners. They would learn a great deal, as we all do, from each other. I have both spoken to Don Nufelder and emailed him that he could get a lot of good info on these forums.
Thanks, christianm. As you can tell, we really are a group of folk that truly love our trailers and want your company to do very well, now and in the future. Keep up the good work.
Well, just got back from a 7 day trip to Pa. and nothing major went wrong, how ever there are a couple of things that need to be addressed, the bed room window latches, (bottom two ) don't make contact with the base, they are too high, the shower curtain is basically useless, ( a deeper shower pan would be nice ) and the black water tank strap, ( the middle one ) pinches the tank in the middle, like a belt thats too tight on a fat guy, so the middle of the tank is higher then the two ends. The AC froze up, I don't mean mechanically, the unit iced up, at one point no air was being drawn into the camper, the blower was going full speed but no air, I shut it off for a day and it seemed to work, I haven't tried using the AC again, (the weather didn't call for it). I believe its a drain issue, although initially the drain on the AC, (when I was using it), seemed to have worked fine, water was running off the roof.
If it is humid out and you have the thermostat on the A/C set too high, they will ice up. When that happens to me, I turn it to just fan until the air starts flowing again. I then raise the thermostat a bit to give the compressor a chance to kick off every once in a while.
Thanks,,, Never ran into a A/C freezing up like that, not on any RV I've ever owned, but there's always a first time....
That happened to us on a regular basis when I camped a lot in Florida. We just knew we couldnt run the AC on max cold for extended periods of time.
So, you just run it on medium temp with the fan on hi?
[quote source="/post/14865/thread" timestamp="1441418406" author="@pjcd"]So, you just run it on medium temp with the fan on hi?[/quote]When it froze on me, I ran it fan only until air flow resumed. Then I ran it fan high on medium temp. Worked fine.
I'll try that next time.
OK, this is something for the CL factory to view, (I own a 21RBS). I don't know wether or not you guys look at this forum or its concerns with your product. This is a post to "just to let you know" of the problems I've had, problems that I consider minor, but others might fret over, some of these issues are related to quality control and in my opinion should have been identified before leaving the factory floor, others are common sense recommendations that you might consider.
1. Poor application of outside trim on trailer
2. Metal shavings every where, and I mean every where.
3. Propane line to furnace leaking
4. lights, just about all of them, flicker and will not light when turned on, this is not a consistent problem, but still needs to be addressed.
5. Black and grey holding tank straps were installed incorrectly.
6. Shower curtain, really why even bother, what did you guys figure, one size fits all. Its only about eight inches to long.
7. The entry step would be easier to use if it were a double.
8. A three way valve for winterizing the trailer.
9. A black water flush connection.
10. Window pistons will not lock in the open position
11. Window latches will not make contact with latch block on window frame, (just two of the latches).
12. Put interior light switch by front door, that way you don't have to fumble around looking for it in the dark.
I'm sure there are many on this forum with constructive recommendations that would greatly improve your product at a minimal expense to you or cost to the customer.
These are concerns and recommendations I've noticed on my first trip out with the trailer, aside from the gas leak, nothing is what I would consider major, just annoyances,
[quote source="/post/14895/thread" timestamp="1441549088" author="@pjcd"]OK, this is something for the CL factory to view, (I own a 21RBS). I don't know wether or not you guys look at this forum or its concerns with your product. This is a post to "just to let you know" of the problems I've had, problems that I consider minor, but others might fret over, some of these issues are related to quality control and in my opinion should have been identified before leaving the factory floor, others are common sense recommendations that you might consider.
1. Poor application of outside trim on trailer
2. Metal shavings every where, and I mean every where.
3. Propane line to furnace leaking
4. lights, just about all of them, flicker and will not light when turned on, this is not a consistent problem, but still needs to be addressed.
5. Black and grey holding tank straps were installed incorrectly.
6. Shower curtain, really why even bother, what did you guys figure, one size fits all. Its only about eight inches to long.
7. The entry step would be easier to use if it were a double.
8. A three way valve for winterizing the trailer.
9. A black water flush connection.
10. Window pistons will not lock in the open position
11. Window latches will not make contact with latch block on window frame, (just two of the latches).
I'm sure there are many on this forum with constructive recommendations that would greatly improve your product at a minimal expense to you or cost to the customer.
These are concerns and recommendations I've noticed on my first trip out with the trailer, aside from the gas leak, nothing is what I would consider major, just annoyances,
[/quote]pjcd,
Thank you SO much for taking the time to compile this list. This forum is monitored by some of us here at Livin Lite, and we are happy for information in regards to ANY of our products! It is our hope to use lists like this to create a better, more efficient camping experience for future Livin Lite owners. You were right when you said that many on this forum have had constructive recommendations and tips on how we can better our product. I have learned so much already from you guys! Should you ever need further help with any of these issues, or have a warranty concern- please don't hesitate to give me a shout!
Thanks again, and happy camping!
I hope that you guys take a serious look at whats said on this forum, there are people who I'm sure look at these forums when considering to make a purchase. I really like the trailer and am willing to put up with its idiosyncrasies, it's positive aspects out way the negatives, I will update my list as the need arises.
pjcd, back to your propane leak. How did you discover it and want did you do to fix?
Thanks
Craig
This admittedly goes back to a 2013 build date, but...
I found this inexcusable:
(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3720/13560456885_e32f438bea_z.jpg)
Sure looks like someone could not lay their hands on the right aluminum strap and just searched in a junk pile to come up with whatever they could find.
A more comprehensive final inspection should really catch stuff like this.
Not surprised at all after the things I've seen on my trailer.....I'm not that fussy a person, but I would change that to aluminum.
[quote source="/post/15034/thread" author="@craigd" timestamp="1441804140"]pjcd, back to your propane leak. How did you discover it and want did you do to fix?
Thanks
Craig[/quote] I was prepping it for its maiden voyage and I turned on the gas to check out the fridge and after a couple of hours the alarm went off, I could smell the gas when I entered the trailer. I kind of followed my nose and tracked it down. Even if the alarm didn't go off I would have noticed it. Once I narrowed it down to the furnace I pulled the outside cover and put some soapy water on the connection, I disconnected the fitting, applied some pipe dope, retightened and it seemed to take care of the problem
[quote source="/post/15040/thread" timestamp="1441810644" author="@fasteddieb"]This admittedly goes back to a 2013 build date, but...
I found this inexcusable:
[img src="https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3720/13560456885_e32f438bea_z.jpg"]
Sure looks like someone could not lay their hands on the right aluminum strap and just searched in a junk pile to come up with whatever they could find.
A more comprehensive final inspection should really catch stuff like this.[/quote]My 2013 21BHS has this same strap as well at the identical location. I'm wondering if they felt it was better in terms of strength. I would have rather had a larger aluminum strap.
[quote source="/post/15042/thread" timestamp="1441812760" author="@pjcd"][quote source="/post/15034/thread" timestamp="1441804140" author="@craigd"]pjcd, back to your propane leak. How did you discover it and want did you do to fix?
Thanks
Craig[/quote] I was prepping it for its maiden voyage and I turned on the gas to check out the fridge and after a couple of hours the alarm went off, I could smell the gas when I entered the trailer. I kind of followed my nose and tracked it down. Evan if the alarm didn't go off I would have noticed it. Once I narrowed it down to the furnace I pulled the outside cover and put some soapy water on the connection, I disconnected the fitting applied some pipe dope, retightened and it seemed to take care of the problem[/quote]Thanks for the info, any propane leak is scary!
I forgot to ask out there, when I was fixing the furnace fitting, I found this string of loose wire in the compartment, it looks like it runs under the trailer, I'm assuming it goes to the fuse box. I zip tied it and tucked it away. Is there an accessory that this powers?
(http://i570.photobucket.com/albums/ss145/pjcdemil/IMG_2659_zpsz7x8yhre.jpg)
[quote timestamp="1441810644" source="/post/15040/thread" author="@fasteddieb"]This admittedly goes back to a 2013 build date, but...
I found this inexcusable:
[img style="max-width:100%;" src="https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3720/13560456885_e32f438bea_z.jpg"]
Sure looks like someone could not lay their hands on the right aluminum strap and just searched in a junk pile to come up with whatever they could find.
A more comprehensive final inspection should really catch stuff like this.[/quote][font size="3"]Just looked at mine Build date 10/2013. Nice shinny galvanized strap. They don't have to use an old rusty strap. [/font]
pjcd, That looks like a 120VAC wire. I hope it's not hooked up at the other end! I'm not familiar with the 21RBS, so I'm not sure what that might have powered as an accessory/option. Are all of your AC appliances working?
I took it out for a week, everything seemed to work fine. You know I never gave it a thought as to whether it was live or not, I guess I better check it out when it stops raining here. Thanks
[quote source="/post/15056/thread" timestamp="1441826377" author="@pjcd"]I forgot to ask out there, when I was fixing the furnace fitting, I found this string of loose wire in the compartment, it looks like it runs under the trailer, I'm assuming it goes to the fuse box. I zip tied it and tucked it away. Is there an accessory that this powers?
(http://i570.photobucket.com/albums/ss145/pjcdemil/IMG_2659_zpsz7x8yhre.jpg)
yes its right next to the shore power. Its the black plastic furnace cover, four screws hold it in place, two screws for the metal vent, when all thats removed, then there are four more screws that hold the furnace in place.
Quote from: @pjcd" source="/post/15149/thread" timestamp="1441969555yes its right next to the shore power. Its the black plastic furnace cover, four screws hold it in place, two screws for the metal vent, when all thats removed, then there are four more screws that hold the furnace in place.
[font size="3"]Interesting. My furnace is an Atwood 7900-II rated 16,000 BTU. What did they put in yours? It looks a lot more serviceable. [/font]
Its an Atwood "Hydro Flame" AF Series Furnace, thats about all I can tell you. The paperwork is pretty general, covers four models.
[font size="3"]PJCD,
What year is your 21RBS and can you post a picture of the furnace exterior access plate as seen from the outside of the camper?
[/font]
[img style="max-width:100%;" style="" src="http://i570.photobucket.com/albums/ss145/pjcdemil/IMG_2654_zpsy97gjfgn.jpg"]
2015 -----
That is a nice change from my 2013 21BHS. I have nothing like that, just the vent.
My water connections are also on the other side of the trailer which I always find questionable. Glad to see they changed that.
[font size="3"]Ditto what Doug said. Thanks for the picture. Access is mo' betta.
[/font]
++ for christianm!
I'm *so* glad to hear that the factory is committed to doing the right thing, and I really appreciate a factory rep here on these forums.
David
Quote from: @djsamuel" source="/post/15200/thread" timestamp="1442101537That is a nice change from my 2013 21BHS. I have nothing like that, just the vent.
My water connections are also on the other side of the trailer which I always find questionable. Glad to see they changed that.
The fresh water tank fill is on the other side, (aft of the front door). Never owned a trailer like that, usually its on the same side as the city water.
Quote from: @pjcd" source="/post/15207/thread" timestamp="1442116278Quote from: @djsamuel" source="/post/15200/thread" timestamp="1442101537That is a nice change from my 2013 21BHS. I have nothing like that, just the vent.
My water connections are also on the other side of the trailer which I always find questionable. Glad to see they changed that.
The fresh water tank fill is on the other side, (aft of the front door). Never owned a trailer like that, usually its on the same side as the city water.
[font size="3"]Since the city water line has to connect to the cold water system, preferably near the pump although it could be almost anywhere, I'm guessing they just ran the city water hose across under the camper. Another place for a freeze up? In the old configuration both the city and FW tank fill hoses were contained within the heated envelope.[/font]
Again, this goes back to a 2013 build, but this seems like a good place for this sort of thing.
Ran Campy down to Southland yesterday to have a window replaced under warranty.
On checking how things rode, Karen noticed this:
(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5618/21338930379_bfb635f9e3_z.jpg)
The three screws had pulled out of the ceiling.
On investigating:
(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5668/21499541136_c454972d7a_z.jpg)
In addition to the three screws into the ceiling, there were supposed to be two screws attaching it to the wall. You can see the one on the left had barely entered the wall, and the one on the right had never even made it into the Adzel.
I decided to let Southland take care of it - they said less than an hour and that seemed worthwhile. They were slammed and could not do it while we waited, so we'll head back next week to pick it up.
Anyway, not a huge deal, but there was the potential of a damaged TV had the box fallen on and banged against the screen in transit - which it fortunately had not.
Makes you wonder how the rest of the trailer is put together............ You do this kind of thing long enough and you know when the screw is grabbing or it isn't. Some body once said, "Don't make them intelligent, just smart enough to run the machines"
FAST Eddie,
I think you and Karen have the record for the most issues with a CL LL trailer; your rig must have been produced on Friday afternoon or Monday morning!
[quote timestamp="1442765864" source="/post/15391/thread" author="@monted"]FAST Eddie,
I think you and Karen have the record for the most issues with a CL LL trailer; your rig must have been produced on Friday afternoon or Monday morning![/quote]
I guess that's pretty subjective.
I would have said for the most part our 21BHS has been pretty reliable.
Only major issue was the "bonded" neutral and ground. Beyond that, what I'd call small stuff.
But even small stuff can point to a need for better quality control.
I think over all, the trailer is solid, but I've run into issues that I thought should not have made it past anyone inspecting the trailer before its shipped out. There should be more attention to detail, this is the same kind of thing thats industry wide, was hoping it would be different at LL.