What's the big deal??? Sure, the fireworks, food and fun are great. But the really big deal, especially this 4th of July, is that we are still free men and women! As such, along with the festivities, we will revisit the document that serves as the basis for our celebration, The Declaration of Independence. http://www.ushistory.org/Declaration/document/
As importantly, we will also remember the 56 Signers of this declaration, their courage and the price they paid for our freedom...lest we forget that Freedom is not, has never been and will never be free! Happy Birthday, USA, and may God's grace continue to shine on thee!
[font size="3"]Much To Lose
[/font]
What kind of men were the 56 signers who adopted the Declaration of Independence and who, by their signing, committed an act of treason against the crown? To each of you, the names Franklin, Adams, Hancock and Jefferson are almost as familiar as household words. Most of us, however, know nothing of the other signers. Who were they? What happened to them?
I imagine that many of you are somewhat surprised at the names not there: George Washington, Alexander Hamilton, Patrick Henry. All were elsewhere.
Ben Franklin was the only really old man. Eighteen were under 40; three were in their 20s. Of the 56 almost half – 24 – were judges and lawyers. Eleven were merchants, nine were landowners and farmers, and the remaining 12 were doctors, ministers, and politicians.
With only a few exceptions, such as Samuel Adams of Massachusetts, these were men of substantial property. All but two had families. The vast majority were men of education and standing in their communities. They had economic security as few men had in the 18th Century.
Each had more to lose from revolution than he had to gain by it. John Hancock, one of the richest men in America, already had a price of 500 pounds on his head. He signed in enormous letters so that his Majesty could now read his name without glasses and could now double the reward. Ben Franklin wryly noted: "Indeed we must all hang together, otherwise we shall most assuredly hang separately."
Fat Benjamin Harrison of Virginia told tiny Elbridge Gerry of Massachusetts: "With me it will all be over in a minute, but you, you will be dancing on air an hour after I am gone."
These men knew what they risked. The penalty for treason was death by hanging. And remember, a great British fleet was already at anchor in New York Harbor.
They were sober men. There were no dreamy-eyed intellectuals or draft card burners here. They were far from hot-eyed fanatics yammering for an explosion. They simply asked for the status quo. It was change they resisted. It was equality with the mother country they desired. It was taxation with representation they sought. They were all conservatives, yet they rebelled.
It was principle, not property, that had brought these men to Philadelphia. Two of them became presidents of the United States. Seven of them became state governors. One died in office as vice president of the United States. Several would go on to be US Senators. One, the richest man in America, in 1828 founded the Baltimore and Ohio Railroad. One, a delegate from Philadelphia, was the only real poet, musician and philosopher of the signers. (It was he, Francis Hopkinson not Betsy Ross who designed the United States flag.)
Richard Henry Lee, a delegate from Virginia, had introduced the resolution to adopt the Declaration of Independence in June of 1776. He was prophetic in his concluding remarks: "Why then sir, why do we longer delay? Why still deliberate? Let this happy day give birth to an American Republic. Let her arise not to devastate and to conquer but to reestablish the reign of peace and law.
"The eyes of Europe are fixed upon us. She demands of us a living example of freedom that may exhibit a contrast in the felicity of the citizen to the ever-increasing tyranny which desolates her polluted shores. She invites us to prepare an asylum where the unhappy may find solace, and the persecuted repost.
"If we are not this day wanting in our duty, the names of the American Legislatures of 1776 will be placed by posterity at the side of all of those whose memory has been and ever will be dear to virtuous men and good citizens."
Though the resolution was formally adopted July 4, it was not until July 8 that two of the states authorized their delegates to sign, and it was not until August 2 that the signers met at Philadelphia to actually put their names to the Declaration.
William Ellery, delegate from Rhode Island, was curious to see the signers' faces as they committed this supreme act of personal courage. He saw some men sign quickly, "but in no face was he able to discern real fear." Stephan Hopkins, Ellery's colleague from Rhode Island, was a man past 60. As he signed with a shaking pen, he declared: "My hand trembles, but my heart does not."
"Most Glorious Service"
Even before the list was published, the British marked down every member of Congress suspected of having put his name to treason. All of them became the objects of vicious manhunts. Some were taken. Some, like Jefferson, had narrow escapes. All who had property or families near British strongholds suffered.
· Francis Lewis, New York delegate saw his home plundered — and his estates in what is now Harlem — completely destroyed by British Soldiers. Mrs. Lewis was captured and treated with great brutality. Though she was later exchanged for two British prisoners through the efforts of Congress, she died from the effects of her abuse.
· William Floyd, another New York delegate, was able to escape with his wife and children across Long Island Sound to Connecticut, where they lived as refugees without income for seven years. When they came home they found a devastated ruin.
· Philips Livingstone had all his great holdings in New York confiscated and his family driven out of their home. Livingstone died in 1778 still working in Congress for the cause.
· Louis Morris, the fourth New York delegate, saw all his timber, crops, and livestock taken. For seven years he was barred from his home and family.
· John Hart of Trenton, New Jersey, risked his life to return home to see his dying wife. Hessian soldiers rode after him, and he escaped in the woods. While his wife lay on her deathbed, the soldiers ruined his farm and wrecked his homestead. Hart, 65, slept in caves and woods as he was hunted across the countryside. When at long last, emaciated by hardship, he was able to sneak home, he found his wife had already been buried, and his 13 children taken away. He never saw them again. He died a broken man in 1779, without ever finding his family.
· Dr. John Witherspoon, signer, was president of the College of New Jersey, later called Princeton. The British occupied the town of Princeton, and billeted troops in the college. They trampled and burned the finest college library in the country.
· Judge Richard Stockton, another New Jersey delegate signer, had rushed back to his estate in an effort to evacuate his wife and children. The family found refuge with friends, but a Tory sympathizer betrayed them. Judge Stockton was pulled from bed in the night and brutally beaten by the arresting soldiers. Thrown into a common jail, he was deliberately starved. Congress finally arranged for Stockton's parole, but his health was ruined. The judge was released as an invalid, when he could no longer harm the British cause.
He returned home to find his estate looted and did not live to see the triumph of the Revolution. His family was forced to live off charity.
· Robert Morris, merchant prince of Philadelphia, delegate and signer, met Washington's appeals and pleas for money year after year. He made and raised arms and provisions which made it possible for Washington to cross the Delaware at Trenton. In the process he lost 150 ships at sea, bleeding his own fortune and credit almost dry.
· George Clymer, Pennsylvania signer, escaped with his family from their home, but their property was completely destroyed by the British in the Germantown and Brandywine campaigns.
· Dr. Benjamin Rush, also from Pennsylvania, was forced to flee to Maryland. As a heroic surgeon with the army, Rush had several narrow escapes.
· John Martin, a Tory in his views previous to the debate, lived in a strongly loyalist area of Pennsylvania. When he came out for independence, most of his neighbors and even some of his relatives ostracized him. He was a sensitive and troubled man, and many believed this action killed him. When he died in 1777, his last words to his tormentors were: "Tell them that they will live to see the hour when they shall acknowledge it [the signing] to have been the most glorious service that I have ever rendered to my country."
· William Ellery, Rhode Island delegate, saw his property and home burned to the ground.
· Thomas Lynch, Jr., South Carolina delegate, had his health broken from privation and exposures while serving as a company commander in the military. His doctors ordered him to seek a cure in the West Indies and on the voyage, he and his young bride were drowned at sea.
· Edward Rutledge, Arthur Middleton, and Thomas Heyward, Jr., the other three South Carolina signers, were taken by the British in the siege of Charleston. They were carried as prisoners of war to St. Augustine, Florida, where they were singled out for indignities. They were exchanged at the end of the war, the British in the meantime having completely devastated their large landholdings and estates.
· Thomas Nelson, signer of Virginia, was at the front in command of the Virginia military forces. With British General Charles Cornwallis in Yorktown, fire from 70 heavy American guns began to destroy Yorktown piece by piece. Lord Cornwallis and his staff moved their headquarters into Nelson's palatial home. While American cannonballs were making a shambles of the town, the house of Governor Nelson remained untouched. Nelson turned in rage to the American gunners and asked, "Why do you spare my home?"
They replied, "Sir, out of respect to you." Nelson cried, "Give me the cannon!" and fired on his magnificent home himself, smashing it to bits. But Nelson's sacrifice was not quite over. He had raised $2 million for the Revolutionary cause by pledging his own estates. When the loans came due, a newer peacetime Congress refused to honor them, and Nelson's property was forfeited. He was never reimbursed. He died, impoverished, a few years later at the age of 50.
Lives, Fortunes, Honor
Of those 56 who signed the Declaration of Independence, nine died of wounds or hardships during the war. Five were captured and imprisoned, in each case with brutal treatment. Several lost wives, sons or entire families. One lost his 13 children. Two wives were brutally treated. All were at one time or another the victims of manhunts and driven from their homes. Twelve signers had their homes completely burned. Seventeen lost everything they owned. Yet not one defected or went back on his pledged word. Their honor, and the nation they sacrificed so much to create is still intact.
And, finally, there is the New Jersey signer, Abraham Clark.
He gave two sons to the officer corps in the Revolutionary Army. They were captured and sent to that infamous British prison hulk afloat in New York Harbor known as the hell ship Jersey, where 11,000 American captives were to die. The younger Clarks were treated with a special brutality because of their father. One was put in solitary and given no food. With the end almost in sight, with the war almost won, no one could have blamed Abraham Clark for acceding to the British request when they offered him his sons' lives if he would recant and come out for the King and Parliament. The utter despair in this man's heart, the anguish in his very soul, must reach out to each one of us down through 200 years with his answer: "No."
The 56 signers of the Declaration Of Independence proved by their every deed that they made no idle boast when they composed the most magnificent curtain line in history. "And for the support of this Declaration with a firm reliance on the protection of divine providence, we mutually pledge to each other our lives, our fortunes, and our sacred honor."
http://drtimwhite.com/what-happened-to-the-56-signers-of-the-declaration-of-independence/
[p]Nice post, GW.
I fear the founders would hardly recognize, nor would they be so dedicated to, the nation today though. There is much to love still yet today. And so much more to despise too.
I wonder how they would accept the news of their very likenesses being slated for demolition, their words erased from the public square, the civics for which they fought and died being buried and ignored, the morality taking a back seat to pop culture, the citizenship being exploited ... the people of faith being suspected and accused.[/p][p]
[/p][p]I could go on and on and on here. Fact is, it would change nothing. So, I guess what I am trying to say is this. Although it is great to hold the Founding Fathers in such high regard I feel this nation has not shown itself to be worthy of such sacrifice and divinely inspired actions of them. It seems the way to effect change here is through revolutionary tactics and strategies only ever to have graced our shores by the likes of them.
I dunno. Every year I seem to be more and more in it for the hotdogs.[/p]
[font size="3"]@whoofit , your post has touched me deeply. I'm sad that our country's direction is making you feel this way and hope the best for your happiness.
I read your post with particular interest because today, of all days, I am feeling so very proud of my country. The news from the Supreme Court this morning has rekindled my belief in the system set up by our forefathers and mothers so very long ago. Today, my wife and I awakened to the news that we are no longer second-class citizens in our nation. The news that we can now sit at the same lunch counter as those who would have us eat in the back room.
It is difficult to put into adequate words what this means to me. But here is my effort:
I am 63 years old and have lived the majority of my years enduring treatment many people in this country can only imagine. I have been spit on, beaten up, had my very character and humanity assailed in newspapers, been denied health benefits by my employer, been outcast by members of my family, been forced to live in secrecy for fear of losing my job, and suffered many more indignities that, thanks to my age, have been pushed to some unreachable part of my memory banks.
But I have also sung the Star Spangled Banner with a hundred other couples, waiting in line for our marriage licenses, to obliterate the obscenities our fellow Americans were hurling at us. I have flown a flag behind our motorcycle in a parade of pride to help inspire others to hopefulness. And I have been the recipient of great love and kindness from friends and other members of my wife's family and mine on the day of our much anticipated wedding ceremony here in Oregon last year.
So, you see, today I am feeling a special pride in my country and in our system of justice that allows a woman of my age to sit here with tears of joy streaming down my face as I write this post. My fourth of July this year will be so much more than our barbecue. It will be a celebration of an idea that has stood the test of time: that all are created equal. And that, in the end, gives us all the simple freedom to sit around our campfires and toast those men and women who got us here: the founders, the fighters, the activists, the prayers. I toast them all.
I leave you with these two photos. The first is of the words of Thomas Jefferson, a visionary if ever there was one. The second is of two people, just married, who never thought it would happen. I am on the right. My beautiful and loving wife is on the left. Two people couldn't possibly be happier nor more grateful for the privileges we now share in common with all of you.[/font]
[img style="max-width:100%;" src="https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/363/19189932121_4c9b710192_z.jpg"]
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/454/18563959934_f87c38dd90_z.jpg)
Kath, make no mistake about it. I have no adverse feelings toward the SCOTUS decision handed down today. When I spoke of "today" above it was in a generational sense of the word. I think that came across well enough.
I live in one of the first states to provide same sex marriage. I voted for Romney then and again in 2008. I believe everyone should be left alone with regards to this matter. If it harms no one then "no harm no foul". For instance, as a Christian, my belief set compels me to be married in church. I do not desire to force everyone to be married in a church. But we believe that the real marriage happens there. The rest of it is "this worldly' and none of our concern though we abide by it as everyone else does.
I am very happy to hear of your excitement and wish well to the both of you! I am equally sad, disappointed and distressed to hear of your personal struggle. But this ruling/decision does not even begin to address the vast magnitude of the problems our nation faces. It is a huge weight lifted from your shoulders, not a small and insignificant justice to those who are affected by it, but it is small potatoes in the greater picture in my opinion
I need not question you or [strike]anyone else[/strike] any legal citizen on their patriotism nor would I deserve an answer if I did. I have my reasons for feeling this way and they have been going on for about a decade. They include sweeping epic wrong doings in proportions never ever seen before in this nation. These deeds affect more than the 1% of the population that is of your persuasion. The fine person that you have portrayed yourself to be here. I am glad you came along to join us.
I could rip a list a mile long right now but I won't. I doubt we would solve anything and might dare to say we would probably make things worse for this forum...
Great Picture!
[font size="3"][/font]@whoofit , Thank you for your thoughtful note. I made no assumption that you were referring to the Supreme Court decision in your post. I only wanted to share my delight in this joyful, national movement forward, despite the many problems we still face in our country.
I am a huge believer in the power of small steps forward and in the notion that a person, or a country, can and should constantly take actions that move in the direction of good, no matter how many steps we slide back in the interim. It is this belief that has allowed me to celebrate my citizenship in this country despite much effort on the part of some to dishearten me and make me a cynic.
I appreciate your good wishes for my family and me. I am proud that our son will grow up in a world made better by the small but powerful steps of those who went before him. And that includes your beliefs that don't seek to harm me, nor mine harm you. I consider us all family here who can share in the joy of the outdoors and the freedom to go where and how we please. Aren't we incredibly lucky to be us!
Really do appreciate the candor and kind expression of personal beliefs thus far. In that same spirit, I choose now not to express personal convictions that would be best suited elsewhere..like face to face around a warm campfire. :)
However, the article linked below just now crossed the newswires and has prompted a troubling question that I will choose to ask now: Could perceived 'small steps forward' actually prove to be a dangerous, slippery slope?
http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2015/06/gay-marriage-decision-polygamy-119469_full.html#.VY3w317D9lY
Would somebody please pass the mustard???
Quote from: @gwbushhog" source="/post/12707/thread" timestamp="1435369886Would somebody please pass the mustard???
What? Mustard? I'm still waiting for my freaking HOTDOG!
[quote source="/post/12706/thread" timestamp="1435369242" author="@gwbushhog"]Really do appreciate the candor and kind expression of personal beliefs thus far. In that same spirit,[strong] I choose now not to express personal convictions that would be best suited elsewhere[/strong]..like face to face around a warm campfire. :)
However, the article linked below just now crossed the newswires and [strong]has prompted a troubling question that I will choose to ask now[/strong]: Could perceived 'small steps forward' actually prove to be a dangerous, slippery slope?
http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2015/06/gay-marriage-decision-polygamy-119469_full.html#.VY3w317D9lY[/quote][p]Oh, sure![/p][p]
[/p][p]Nice duck, cover and roll, GW! [/p][p]
[/p][p]GRENADE!!!
[/p]
[p] Alright, I'll throw myself onto this grenade.... (rofl)[/p][p]
[/p][p]I would venture to guess that within 20 years polygamy will be legalized because of this decision.[/p][p]
[/p][p]SPLAT!![/p][p]
[/p][p]I mean, they already got the Holy Matrimony thing for it so what's the biggie about the marriage license?[/p][p]
[/p][p]Social Security will need to be revamped in a large way!!....heh heh heh[/p]
[p]And OK, since I took the hit with the first round, I get to choose the return volley... 8-)[/p][p]
[/p][p]This comparison is in no way intended to compare ANY class of citizen to another. Certainly not intended to compare it to the new found rights of the LGBTQ community. It is not reflective of their relationships as I have experienced them to be.[/p][p]
[/p][p]But what about consenting incest?[/p][p]
[/p][p]So far I have heard the arguments about how incest is still taboo. How it isn't a factor. But what if it was consensual? What if it was consensual between two adult brothers or sisters? There is no chance of that bloodline going awry and causing birth defects (if it's even the case). If love is present should it be allowed? Should they be allowed to marry?[/p][p]
[/p][p]So what say you, GW? Wanna take one for the team?[/p][p]
[/p][p]INCOMING!![/p]
Just embrace the awkwardness, and where the heck are those HOTDOGS!
Since it's just us now, will lob one....but just for you, Whoofit. Here goes: Should activists that have been trying to put hard-working mom-and-pop bakers and pizza makers out of business be more concerned about what's happening here? ( http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/isis-executioners-kill-gays-by-hurling-them-off-roofs-mosul-1482198)
Our southern and northern borders go unprotected while I S I S operates a camp 8 miles from El Paso...and not an RV camp either. This hits waaay too close to home for us since El Paso was our home before coming to FL. These guys are very handy with technology, Go-Pro cameras, swimming pools, gasoline, rocks, knives and fence posts, to name a few. To call them pure evil falls short. At the very least should not gays, women and Christians be very concerned? Seems like we all better learn to duck, cover and roll. Better yet, we can come together as 'One Nation Under God', pray (II Chronicles 7:14 is a good start) and in courageous fashion akin to our Founding Fathers, we can stand as today's defending fathers while we yet remain free men and women. Or we can, along with our children and grandchildren, grovel before tyrants.
Since this thread is first and foremost about America's independence from tyranny 239 years ago, I'll conclude with Benjamin Franklin's sobering words:
[font size="5"]"We must all hang together, or most assuredly we shall all hang separately."
[/font]
Alright, duck.....................BOOM!
[quote source="/post/12715/thread" timestamp="1435375213" author="@whoofit"][p]And OK, since I took the hit with the first round, I get to choose the return volley... 8-)[/p][p]
[/p][p]This comparison is in no way intended to compare ANY class of citizen to another. Certainly not intended to compare it to the new found rights of the LGBTQ community. It is not reflective of their relationships as I have experienced them to be.[/p][p]
[/p][p]But what about consenting incest?[/p][p]
[/p][p]So far I have heard the arguments about how incest is still taboo. How it isn't a factor. But what if it was consensual? What if it was consensual between two adult brothers or sisters? There is no chance of that bloodline going awry and causing birth defects (if it's even the case). If love is present should it be allowed? Should they be allowed to marry?[/p][p]
[/p][p]So what say you, GW? Wanna take one for the team?[/p][p]
[/p][p]INCOMING!![/p][/quote]We live in Florida! Of course we have problems with insects!
[quote timestamp="1435375869" author="@whoofit" source="/post/12716/thread"]Just embrace the awkwardness, and where the heck are those HOTDOGS![/quote]Some people prefer hamburgers, and quite frankly, it's okay. - Ronald [strike]Reagan[/strike] McDonald
Gee. I didn't believe it was possible to feel bad on a day like today. But I think you guys have managed it. Think I'll take a break for awhile.
[quote source="/post/12723/thread" timestamp="1435380333" author="@gwbushhog"]Since it's just us now, will lob one....but just for you, Whoofit. Here goes: Should activists that have been trying to put hard-working mom-and-pop bakers and pizza makers out of business be more concerned about what's happening here? ( http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/isis-executioners-kill-gays-by-hurling-them-off-roofs-mosul-1482198)
Since this thread is first and foremost about America's independence from tyranny 239 years ago, I'll conclude with Benjamin Franklin's sobering words:
[font size="5"]"We must all hang together, or most assuredly we shall all hang separately."
[/font]
Alright, duck.....................BOOM!
[/quote][p]UH!...MEDIC!!
Here is what I think, GW.
Pink, Black, Green, Red, White or Blue...and in any combination. As a business person the money is all the same color and flavor to me. I will never discriminate while my shingle is hanging performing services and earning money from any legal citizen or legal immigrant in my neck of the woods. I believe it does a disservice to my business as I am an equal opportunity Capitalist.
I do believe that those who are not so friendly to those that are of a variety different in some legal way than themselves kind of need to get over themselves. I can see the problem if the gay couple wants the cake baked in the Nunnery or blessed by the Pope himself (if one is so inclined as to consider the Pope as Christs representative on Earth). But I do not see the legal standing for someone to refuse service on infringement of civil rights grounds....no sir/maam.
If the business was ONLY baking cakes to supply ONLY Christian weddings....then, it's AOKAY! If the business was only sending these cakes Storkmail directly to Heaven packed in Dry Ice....then it's AOKAY!!
Now, here's where the triage might come into play..... (zzz) I do think the fight by all persons against discrimination against all legal persons on these shores is a noble cause. BUT there must also be an exit strategy to now remove those groups of people from the Protected Class designation. This one is a biggie with me.
Does that make me biased? I would like someone to prove that it does![/p][p]
[/p][p]On radical Islam, I have already offered my opinion on them in more ways than one. ISIS would easily fall into that category if I was given half a chance.
[/p]
[quote source="/post/12726/thread" timestamp="1435386724" author="@kath"]Gee. I didn't believe it was possible to feel bad on a day like today. But I think you guys have managed it. Think I'll take a break for awhile. [/quote][p]Since I am only one of two persons that could have brought you to this juncture, I would like to know what words or actions I have spoken or done to make you feel this way, Kath?[/p][p]
[/p][p]The quote you posted made me feel a touch better. They were words of inspiration.[/p][p]
[/p][p]I am sorry if my truthfully spoken words, my belief set or my mannerism in some way has led you to this decision. As you know first hand, by initiating this line of conversation (not to mention your lifetime struggle), it takes some backbone to have an intelligent adult discussion about "What's next for our Nation". What's next is TBD but surely you can see how one SCOTUS decision has implications for the next?[/p][p]
[/p][p]Anyways, I think you already know this first hand, don't let some words drive you from your comfort zone. If I was you I wouldn't. If I was me I can assure you that I wouldn't!.... ;)[/p][p]
[/p][p]Got to add that, unless you could explain to me the reason why you feel this way, with me being one of two members of "you guys", and if I had thinner skin, I might feel just a tad bit offended by your statement that I quoted above, Kath. But that would ultimately be my problem to deal with. I guess it would be like me being happy to be able to retire then on retirement day be sad to be of that age?
[/p]
I think it was the references to incest and the pictures of gay men being thrown off the roof that did me in.
I try to be kind in this life and always hope for the same back. If we are not here on earth for that, then what is the point?
I think we're just in different worlds, after all. Thick skin is not always a good thing to have.
[quote source="/post/12730/thread" timestamp="1435421425" author="@kath"]I think it was the references to incest and the pictures of gay men being thrown off the roof that did me in.
I try to be kind in this life and always hope for the same back. If we are not here on earth for that, then what is the point?
I think we're just in different worlds, after all. Thick skin is not always a good thing to have. [/quote][p]Well if the execution of gay men in this fashion bothers you as it bothers me then we both should know, skin thick or thin, what side our bread is buttered on. Because that is [strong]Holy War[/strong] we are talking about. Something this country just doesn't seem to have the gonads to face up to.[/p][p]
[/p][p]But the largest growing population in this nation does subscribe to its tenets and several groups are working in concert to reduce the numbers of those who feel duty bound to fight that evil where ever it may rear it's ugly head...foregoing any personal feelings of sexual orientation and how that relates to their religious beliefs.[/p][p]
[/p][p]So, I kinda get your point of feeling disheartened, Kath. It's just that you are celebratory right now and rightfully so but, like I said in my initial response to you in this thread, marriage equality is a huge deal to you but doesn't even begin to scratch the surface. [/p][p]
[/p][p]And I won't pressure any one to explain how the [strong]rights[/strong] of [strong]consensual[/strong] adult [strong]citizens[/strong] in [strong]love[/strong] of the same sex persuasion should be[strong] trampled[/strong] just because they have the same mothers, for instance. It is hard to make the argument about how that law cannot be changed when the most recent one was.... Unless one chooses to become an [strong]oppressor[/strong] that is?[/p][p]
[/p][p]So there you have it. Radical Islam is one of the items on my "mile long list"... [/p][p]
[/p][p]And P.S. we are not in different worlds. At the present we share this one.[/p][p]
[/p][p]Really glad to see you back! I really do mean that ..[/p][p]
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(http://i1312.photobucket.com/albums/t521/minuteman1965/10563018_1009216415764492_4189698640310231740_n_zps0dfz6nzj.jpg)
"CNN reported in recent weeks that U.S. law enforcement officials believe the Islamist terrorist threat is the highest in years. The officials have raised concern about possible domestic attacks tied to the July 4 holiday and the upcoming visit of Pope Francis."
http://www.wcvb.com/politics/authorities-warn-of-possible-terrorist-threats/33795908?utm_campaign=WCVB&utm_content=558e154104d3016977000002&utm_medium=facebook&utm_source=trueAnthem%3A+Trending+Content
[font size="3"]The 4th of July is a big deal to me and it has been my goal for the past several years to reread and ponder the Declaration of Independence on this day. So thank you for the reminder.
I am deeply saddened about the direction our beloved country is going and disagree with the recent rulings of the Supreme Court. That said, I strongly believe that everyone, regardless of their opinions and lifestyles, deserves to treated kindly, respectfully, and fairly. Discrimination in jobs, housing, etc., is wrong. That's the person I was taught to be by my Christian faith.
At the same time, that respect must go both ways and I, as one who will always believe in traditional marriage as it has been defined in all major societies throughout history, hope to receive the same respect. And if we ever cross paths in a campground, may we sit around the campfire as friends sharing marshmallows. :)[/font]
A Canadian point of view heading to July 4th (Our day).
IsIS - need to look deeper in to the cause and stop trying to fight the symptoms. Remember, this fight has been going on in the area since Alexander the great. I think once the root cause is better understood, steps can be taken to mitigate the blow back of US and allies working in the area.
Same sex marriage - I too used to have an issue with the use of the word and not so much with the act itself. I'm not religious, but always felt the word was the right of the religious. I've since changed my mind on it as I get older. Also, benefits aren't as big a problem up here since we have social care. As long as the Conservatives don't F it up for us, I hope to continue to benefit from it for many many years.
Incest - if allowing Incest for only gay people because they won't pre create would be discrimination just in the opposite direction. We need to define our societal rules to work for everyone. Some rules aren't liked by everyone, but some are for the greater good as long as it's not dictated to us by an imaginary being who may or may not exist.
Religion - its very important to many and serves a purpose. Keep religion a personal choice and keep it out of politics and governments.
In closing, treat everyone how you want to be treated an don't condemn or react out of ignorance.
And in case anyone is wondering...
Straight
Male
Married
In my 40s
Kids
And just trying to be a good human being and would prefer governments stop spying unless there is a just cause and not because I typed ISIS in a forum once.
Enjoys your holiday our southerly brothers and sisters.
Posted using my powerful BlackBerry Z30 and probably from my 21BHS
[quote source="/post/12736/thread" timestamp="1435450566" author="@poncherelly"]A Canadian point of view heading to July 4th (Our day).
Incest - if allowing Incest for only gay people because they won't pre create would be [strong]discrimination just in the opposite direction[/strong]. We need to define our societal rules to work for everyone.
[/quote][p]Will not offer my opinion of this one way or another only to say that I did not choose to attempt to marry my sister or brother.[/p][p]
[/p][p]I would like to say that incest in itself is NOT illegal in about half of the USA. Though incest marriage is not allowed because of genetic implications at least. If not morality reasons too.[/p][p]
[/p][p]But here in the USA reverse discrimination does not apply just so you know. There is no such thing.
[/p]
Quote from: @whoofit" source="/post/12737/thread" timestamp="1435454644[quote source="/post/12736/thread" timestamp="1435450566" author="@poncherelly"]A Canadian point of view heading to July 4th (Our day).
Incest - if allowing Incest for only gay people because they won't pre create would be [strong]discrimination just in the opposite direction[/strong]. We need to define our societal rules to work for everyone.
[p]Will not offer my opinion of this one way or another only to say that I did not choose to attempt to marry my sister or brother.[/p][p]
[/p][p]I would like to say that incest in itself is NOT illegal in about half of the USA. Though incest marriage is not allowed because of genetic implications at least. If not morality reasons too.[/p][p]
[/p][p]But here in the USA reverse discrimination does not apply just so you know. There is no such thing.
[/p][/quote]
Ya my point wasn't to argue incest one way or the other but rather to point out there are reasons for some rules but as long as everyone treats each other right, don't force your beliefs on anyone and don't do anything to harm anyone else, we'll all do well.
This has gone so far beyond camping at this point however lol have a good night everyone.
Posted using my powerful BlackBerry Z30 and probably from my 21BHS
[quote source="/post/12734/thread" timestamp="1435438721" author="@brenda"][font size="3"]I am deeply saddened about the direction our beloved country is going and disagree with the recent rulings of the Supreme Court.
[/font][/quote]@brenda, I want to make sure I understand what you're saying. Do you believe that my family should not have the same protections under the law that your family enjoys?
[font size="3"]Please take this to a more appropriate forum. Thanks
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[quote source="/post/12743/thread" timestamp="1435494173" author="@charliem"][font size="3"]Please take this to a more appropriate forum. Thanks
[/font][/quote][p]Charlie, but this area is the proper place for such discussions per the description in the header. I have seen no personal attacks or vulgar and obscene comments.[/p][p]
[/p][p]Now, the last post and reply by Kath to Brenda is beginning a new line. It is asking someone to justify their belief set. That is a dangerous direction. In my opinion no one should be compelled to justify their position. Otherwise, this is the "Anything....." forum.[/p][p]
[/p][p]I for one enjoy the frank and candid discussion. I am proud that things have not gotten out of hand.[/p][p]
[/p][p]Five more days till those HOTDOGS!! I don't count today cuz we are having hotdogs today too...
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[font size="3"]Whoofit,
I think we agree on all points. But if you don't take cover when storm clouds first appear you'll soon get very wet. Hence my post. BTW, when I said more appropriate forum I did not mean just another section of this forum. I meant a different forum entirely.
What time will the 'dogs ready??
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[quote source="/post/12740/thread" timestamp="1435471566" author="@kath"][quote source="/post/12734/thread" timestamp="1435438721" author="@brenda"][font size="3"]I am deeply saddened about the direction our beloved country is going and disagree with the recent rulings of the Supreme Court.
[/font][/quote]@brenda, I want to make sure I understand what you're saying. Do you believe that my family should not have the same protections under the law that your family enjoys?
[/quote]"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men (women) are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness..." The Declaration of Independence, paragraph 2a.
Human dignity cannot be given by a 'supreme court' comprised of mere men, but only by a Supreme God in whose image we are all made and by whom we are all deeply loved.
Truth marches on...and we join with others this 4th of July who will pause to remember the cost of freedom paid for by the blood of others. Freedom has never been free. Celebrate and give thanks to God Almighty while we are yet free!
HAPPY 239th BIRTHDAY, USA! May God's grace continue to shine on thee!
[font size="3"]I think it's pretty great that, in spite of our different opinions, we can come together over our mutual love for camping.
And I've been eating hotdogs already(!) 'CAUSE I found some at the store that only have 45 calories each and work in my diet ...... Oops, off topic again. :D :-X ;)[/font]
Quote from: @brenda" source="/post/12748/thread" timestamp="1435509835[font size="3"]I think it's pretty great that, in spite of our different opinions, we can come together over our mutual love for camping.
And I've been eating hotdogs already(!) 'CAUSE I found some at the store that only have 45 calories each and work in my diet ...... Oops, off topic again. :D :-X ;)[/font]
Would they be found at ALDI perhaps? My wife typically buys those there...those are what I refer to as hotdogs. The deadly ones I refer to as HOTDOGS!!.... (rofl)
Here's what Ole George had to say about things like the hot button topic on this thread.
"We have abundant reason to rejoice that in this Land the light of truth and reason has triumphed over the power of bigotry and superstition... In this enlightened Age and in this Land of equal liberty it is our boast, that a man's religious tenets will not forfeit the protection of the Laws, nor deprive him of the right of attaining and holding the highest Offices that are known in the United States." ~Founding Father George Washington, to the New Church in Baltimore. January 27, 1793
And from what I understand you do NOT want to frick with Ole George... 8-)
[quote timestamp="1435510646" source="/post/12750/thread" author="@whoofit"][quote source="/post/12748/thread" timestamp="1435509835" author="@brenda"][font size="3"]I think it's pretty great that, in spite of our different opinions, we can come together over our mutual love for camping.
And I've been eating hotdogs already(!) 'CAUSE I found some at the store that only have 45 calories each and work in my diet ...... Oops, off topic again. :D :-X ;)[/font][/quote]Would they be found at ALDI perhaps? My wife typically buys those there...those are what I refer to as hotdogs. The deadly ones I refer to as HOTDOGS!!.... (rofl)
[/quote]Not familiar with ALDI. I found them at my local grocery store (Fred Meyers). The REAL deadly ones are at Costco. Oh man, smothered in sauerkraut, relish, mustard .....
[p]Yup, so I figured why leave anyone out here?
About a decade ago I realized something. With most supreme court rulings being a near 50/50 split I feel it amounts to this pretty much. I am a registered Independent and vote my conscience.
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[img style="" style="max-width:100%;" src="http://i1312.photobucket.com/albums/t521/minuteman1965/11196329_10153272185662726_4296328838781146811_n_zpsz64p4ugh.png"]
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[quote source="/post/12754/thread" timestamp="1435512920" author="@whoofit"][p]Yup, so I figured why leave anyone out here?
About a decade ago I realized something. With most supreme court rulings being a near 50/50 split I feel it amounts to this pretty much. I am a registered Independent and vote my conscience.
[/p][p]
[/p][p]
(http://i1312.photobucket.com/albums/t521/minuteman1965/11196329_10153272185662726_4296328838781146811_n_zpsz64p4ugh.png)
[quote timestamp="1435516102" source="/post/12755/thread" author="@brenda"]
[quote timestamp="1435512920" author="@whoofit" source="/post/12754/thread"][/quote][font size="3"]
Oh, and I guess that makes me not "stuck in the middle with you". ;) ;)[/font][/quote]You got that right! I am the one that's stuck here... 8-)
Quote
Hi Kath, I wish to respectfully answer your question about your family having the same protections under the law, as others.
I would have preferred those protections be achieved legally through a civil union, including the same tax benefits, inheritance, hospital visiting privileges, etc. I don't wish to deny anyone of their constitutional rights or protections. And I understand the desire to spend your life with the one you love. Anyone with a heart sympathizes with that.
But at the same time, I feel very strongly that societies must be set up to give the highest possible protections for the most innocent and voiceless .... children. Children need both their father and their mother, and neither should ever be considered optional or replaceable. I believe God/nature intended it this way, otherwise conception would have been designed differently. I fear that the legalization of gay marriage will lead to more gay parenting where, without exception, the children must sacrifice one parent, in exchange for another. Children should never be expected to pay such a price to suit the needs of an adult. I feel the same about divorce. It should be avoided if at all possible.
Please let me stress .... I am not saying that LGBTs are any less loving and devoted to their children. I believe they can be just as wonderful parents as anyone. But no one, regardless of whom, can completely replace a child's own biological parents. Human beings have an innate attachment to their biological roots. Some may bury it deeply in their soul, but it's there nonetheless and is one of the things that separates us from other life forms. Please also let me stress that I whole-heartedly endorse adoption. In situations where both parents cannot marry and raise their child together, then adoption into a stable, married two-parent home with a mom and a dad, is a blessing from heaven. But never should a child's birth be planned, before conception, to include adoption. That would be putting the desires of the adult ahead of the needs of the child. I also feel that any home with a loving parent is better than no home, for those children who have little to no chance of adoption.
I do not understand how our society values the presence and input of both sexes in places like employment, government, juries, and even in the Supreme Court itself. This acknowledges readily, that there are indeed differences between men and women, otherwise it wouldn't matter if there was a balance of both in any situation. Yet, the presence and input of both sexes in raising a child has been deemed unimportant. This is why the Supreme Court ruling saddens me. I raised three sons and a daughter and know I could not have filled the inevitable void, had they not had their dad too. There were countless times they needed just me, and countless times they needed only him. And without question, they needed both their parents together. They still do.
Finally, as I said in my post, respect and civility are so very important. I can love someone and do all I can to support their family, while disagreeing with their choices or lifestyle. I do not mean to offend or hurt, just to speak the truth as I see it. The needs of children must come first. Our opinions differ, but hopefully, again as I said, if we ever meet, we can still be friends.
Brenda,
Since you put your oiginal posting here, where it is available for all to see,as I did with my question to you, I feel it is only fair that your reply be posted publicly as well. It is all too convenient to make sweeping statments in public and soften them in private. I have had a stomach full of this in my life.
Your answer tells me that, with all respect, you do not believe that my family is equal to yours. You wish us to have legal protections, but only if we call it something less than what you have. In actuality, we are all "civilly united." Perhaps all marriage licenses should be called that, and those who wish to have a religious designation can seek that somewhere else.
The trouble with making general statements about what you believe, without meaning to offend or hurt, is that you are actually talking about REAL PEOPLE LIKE ME. I am not a concept, or a political ideology. I do not live a "lifestyle" anymore than you live a "lifestyle". This is my actual life, Brenda. And everytime you say, however "respectfully" that my family is not as good as yours because we don't have a father in the house and that "gay parenting", whatever that is, will never be as good as the parenting in your house, you hurt me. And you hurt my child.
Where your "belief" does not hold water is about the children. I would like to know where the straight mothers and fathers were when my son was lying in an orphanage unwanted by all the mother and father units out there? Oh, but wait! You allow that "any home is better than no home." So, I guess we're better than dirt, at least.
What I am trying to tell you is that we are not talking about having different "opinions" here. This is my life you are talking about. This is our son's life you are talking about. So, please, do not pretend we are merely having a difference of opinion.
Friends are people who are equals. How could I possibly feel welcome around your campfire knowing that you feel our family is second rate? What would we tell our son after we roasted marshmallows over your campfire?
You are, as a free citizen of this country, of course entitled to any thought you would like to have in your head. But the minute you put these things out there for other people to see or hear, it hurts me. And it hurts our son. Just know that.
[font size="3"]Admin notified.
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I've been trying to catch up on this thread from a camp sight just outside of Easton PA so I'm a bit slow on this. Everyone has a right to their opinions and I appreciate a lively debate as much as the next person. However this is getting well outside the scope for this board and section. A key descriptor of this section was as a judgement free zone I don't see that core value being upheld here. Keep in mind there is a fine line between a heated debate and personal attacks.
I am locking this thread at this time.